me. at that point i don't even like country a look back at 2010 myself and so forgiving myself because at least would get was so foreign to me if she was the last five or six years five really because we did have any data in order the first one to say i forgive looked at those i did not you. and it opened up the pathway for me to finally forgive myself and find that crime was higher but it was lower so we make peace. but to begin loving myself in a healthy way. needed to print before and i also received a letter reaching clued the trough is from my son who was around ten at the time while i was in solitary confinement. over but alternatively, i that letter shattered every idea would want to see some of the signals were the red that i had about myself in the flags or the kind of perspective you need to start phenomenon we thought we saw from the earlier periods evaluating my life. when crime rose to look at >> host: all the time you've the figures for one-year been in prison, that's what made tour three years the crime you cry?

>> guest: in prison you or figures i want to see some talk to remain -- of the other red flags as well for instance to we have >> host: what was it that a demographic that is caused a reaction? indicating we irrigating more young people from high crime? no. >> guest: unless i turned my life around you would see me as in fact, the population is a monster or murderer and as a father, nobody wants to have aging older people or the that type of burden for their crime threat so i don't child to look at it in the most terrific -- or -- for a thick way. >> host: your son who you basically don't know i that you have been locked up, what's the impact of those letters in the journey?

>> guest: the first laid the foundation for me turning my life around and really being able to see myself from a different perspective and the letter from my son was a spark for me to find a pathway and move forward in a way that honored my existence o on earth and my row was a father and as somebody who the community was looking up to. >> host: my favorite character was your daddy and you are also one of my favorite characters in this happening. what role did you play? >> guest: we met in 2006.

i get a two years before i was on the parole board and we began a correspondence in 2006 we became good friends of a supersmart beautiful woman. and at the time everybody thought she was crazy for exploring the relationship of anmegiven that i was incarceratd for second-degree murder. so here is this beautiful model, recent doctorate graduate and she falls in love or as we say grows in love with me while i'm still struggling to get out of prison and we ended up establishing a wonderful friendship that endures to this day.

the two-day she is the mother of my child and one of my best friends, actually she is my best friend in the world. a super courageous woman, very smart, cares about real issues and works to change the issues. >> host: you said it wasn't so much falling in love but growing in the. >> host: she taught me how to live in a different way. somebody that can help me unpack some of the hardness of prison life and she was a safe place to land when she came into my life. eventually 19 years later, you

are released. what was it like to leave prison after 19 years and walk out of the jail what did it feel like? >> guest: i walked out of prison one day after my 38th birthday. it was a very different world like walking into an episode of the chip -- jetsons. the internet didn't exist when i went to prison. basically it was just a thing getting started. so i came to a different reality than the one i left a.

while i absolutely loved walking out of prison i realized we were in a lot of trouble in this country because we are not preparing them properly. as a relatively smart person i know a lot of the men and women incarcerated have third-grade reading skills so that's the scary thing that we are not preparing people for life after prison. >> host: you said you were a relatively smart person. you are brilliant not just

intellectually but spiritually to evolve in a way that you have. one concern some people have is we spend a lot of time thinking about nonviolent drug crimes. a lot of these ideas about ways to do things differently also apply to people who are at risk for violent crimes and people who've committed violent crimes and murder. the >> guest: here's the thing, politicians for decades have played this game with the mind of american citizens. what they've done is said you know, we are going to lock them up and thro throw away the key u vote for me. the reality is they lock people

up and hide the key until it is time for them to come home decades later and then they release people on the unsuspected society without proper skill sets, without counseling and without access to employment and housing. the american public has been duped into believing only nonviolent offenders get out of prison and that's hogwash. it's one of the same tactics politicians have used to get voted into office over and over again. we have a choice in what kind of men and women returned to the society. we have to start warehousing people in the environments and expect them to get out as healthy human beings and it doesn't matter if you go in as a

nonviolent offender. if you end up in prison you resort to some point of violence to survive the experience. to me we used the language for so long that it's no longer relevant. we are getting out and we can do something to ensure no matter what you've been convicted of if you get out of prison, when you get out a you can get out and obviously possible. our challenge is to be honest with the american public and the likelihood of that happening is probably nonexistent, but this again is what makes the book so important because you get an inside look at what is happening in the system and how they can fix it and how we can produce

better outcomes. >> host: you are an inspiration. oprah said after she talked to you it was one of the most powerful conversations that she ever had. thank you for writing this book and for all of the important work that you are doing now in the big birds o perks of a beaul struggle for the system. >> guest: thank you very much. i appreciate your insight into the book. it's amazing and heartfelt so i really appreciate the interview. thank you for checking out the book.

th

the rise and fall of violent crime in america looks at how about violent crime has fallen in recent decades about what's behind the trend in how long it

might continue. he was interviewed by samuel at the urban institute justice policy center on booktv "after words." this is an hour. >> host: with high-profile spikes in violence in chicago, dc, the question and issue of the violent crime has a salience that it hasn't had since the '90s. barry latzer has written a new book the rise and fall of violent crime in america. what inspired you to reinvestigate the issue of the violent crime? >> guest: no one had studied in a comprehensive way the history of violent crime. i felt that needed to be done especially because as we both know, the violent crime rate had sky rocketed in the 60s and

had really become a major concern for the entire nation for the next several decades, two and a half decades. i felt given the significant violent crime in the postwar period, the major work on that needed to be done. >> host: you do something really unique in this book. when people talk about violent crime they talk about the 60s and 70s. what made you decide that he wanted to take a perspective on the violent crime? >> guest: when i wrote the manuscript i went back even further than that, but they decided to publish the period from the 1940s and on, the period of the memory of people that are still alive. and i feel that is to really understand violent crime and

most major phenomenon. one has to go back in time and see how things develop and that is true with crime as well because i've learned that crime has its ups and downs and there are reasons for it and without a historical perspective, one cannot fully grasp that. as you know many, logical study are maybe a year's worth of crime and these have great value to. they don't give you a broader perspective, and that's why i wrote this book. >> host: before we get into the story of crime in america would set the stage for the viewers. what is violent crime, what kind of crime are we talking about?

>> guest: they define it as four different crimes. murder, but of course that could be treated as a manslaughter if there are certain what we call elements of the crime present or not present. ..

>> >> when i poured -- with

major migration

but first and the african-americans had been slaves where they were obviously treated very badly because of jim crow system that developed in history. but african-americans in the south in part are influenced by whites in the south to have a culture of violence to deal with personal insult and personal disagreement. the use of violence was is

common in the south, whites and blacks in this resort to violence of personal conflict is essentially migrated north with the african-american population that great one dash migration was italy's great but a positive benefit who moved away from the jim crow system and made tremendous gains in terms of income and work opportunities who share the back breaking labor of the sharecroppers of the south and who really inspire the civil-rights movement

but there is a high rate of interpersonal violence that is the negative side of the great migration and was transported in this was a massive migration in 1960 about 800,000 headed to the north and also to the west coast the next decade it is a million and half it is a major migration so unfortunately there is a reluctance to deal with the issue but it does bring a great deal of violent crime and is a factor in the rise of violent crime.

yet factors that relate word demographics of the baby boom as it has become to be known to coming-of-age in the '60s did in the '70s that as of 18 to late 20s and for males especially this is monday expect the peaks of violent crime so of course, as it is it is well-known to have that bulge when the soldiers came home given the prosperity of the country we had many people burying and having children and the baby boomer

generation reach those years in the early '60s in this was true for blacks and whites have had now that the loan -- alone but something happened where it contained a contagion where people could copy the behavior of the other young people so with the baby boomer group we have a development of a crime contagion in this grows like wildfire in reaches the tipping point and that brings us to the

third factor so when that reaches the tipping point and explodes the criminal-justice system can cope. is this want ended is the swapping of the system that provides the third major element. what happens is the police started to arrest fewer people. we know the numbers if really get the rest rates or the complaint for each crime greasy that those numbers actually go down while crime is rising and then the convictions of the case go

down and the prison commitments per conviction begin to diminish in then the time served per conviction goes down so while crime goes up into expect the system to respond by more people to give wonder sentences, the opposite is happening this system is collapsing it can handle that sudden increase of crime but the migration of african-americans i should add those impoverished ones that are raging in high levels of crime in new york city that the collapse of the criminal

justice system contribute to what became the great crime. >> i want to focus of this culture of violence. where does this come from? how do we understand this? >> it is important because we don't want to be understood as the biological argument some racism is more prone to crime than others or that i certainly don't believe that but that accounts for some groups engaging in more crime than others. if that isn't a genetic explanation than that is where values and norms and culture interest in. they can be viewed as the

values and norms and some would add the behavior of that group and over a fairly long period of time here should be something short run. so as we are hearing to certain values and behavior is over long periods of time we say that is the culture and as it happens over the course of my research i discovered something interesting and i'm probably not the first. i found that poor people monopolized violent crime they do the overwhelming and a immelt of violence. however for groups to more violent crime than others

even though they're comparably pork adversity may be comparable but the crime rates are not. this intrigues me why should that be? why shouldn't we be able to measure to find a correlation between the deaths of diversity in violent crime? usually we can't so that led me to conclude there must be cultural differences and apparently it is a worldwide phenomenon. of the in english criminologist was talking have the caribbean is an agent in the u.k. he said the agents are badly treated

in terms of discrimination relatively impoverished and their situation is comparable the afro caribbean to have much higher homicide commission rate so this must be a universal condition as he found other examples as well so that it seems some groups facing similar adversity to have more violence than others and that is where culture must enter something about the values of the group, the behavior's overtime that we engage in more violent crime. know i am only interested in

the other behaviors' as well as i'm sure there are rival interested in the violent crime. >> think of the culture in the united states context where you see the start of the great migration where does that come from in the united states? >> that is fascinating i came across a book called albion's seed that is the ancient roman name for the roman catholic kingdom and this book traces the migration from england to the united states is largely the 18th century but it is pointed out some of the migrants from england

especially from this distinctive part the portion between scotland was a very aggressive group of people i'd like their brethren from other parts of england and it turns out that the very aggressive group from these borderlands of england ended up roughly coming to the appalachian area around pennsylvania and headed south whereas the other groups, the puritans tended to migrate to new england and he went on to describe the norms and values in behavior's of this group that came from the border lands and ended up in the

south but it turns out they were rather violent and very sensitive to insult they would take the law into their own hands for retribution viewed as the al laws and deserving of punishments to they engaged in lynchings or free justice says you may call it, and fischer claims it became the southern culture of violence and it seems this developed in the south among the white southerners so it is my hypothesis this is the

origin of the southern culture of violence and i should explain this involves generally interpersonal conflict where people have disputes either in a long-running french or just disputes arising of perceived insults in their resolve often violently and this became a way of behaving in the south if one or if not two centuries with the works are written the late 19th century with the murder rate in the south and the murder rate of new wings went to be true and persistently true that those rates are much lower so it

is my argument misses the origin of the culture of violence sometimes referred to as the garner culture and sounds a little exaggerated or old-fashioned but what they mean is people are easily offended, they are very sensitive to indignity and being slighted in the result to defend their honor that culture of honor develops in the south and it is my contention african-americans were liberated but then remained in the south because 90 percent of the african-american population lived in the south to route

the 19th century through the early decades of the 20th century the great migration begins at the turn of the century but it accelerates through the 40's which provided job opportunities so it is my contention in the late 19th century the african-american developed because of the white neighbors this honor culture of violence and it is my claim because of the jim crow system and the racist practices in the country and blacks were not permitted to an advance to middle-class and tell really late the

culture of violence is perpetuated throw the 20th century with the lower income african-americans so that's why when we have a migration that's why we have this transportation of violence with that group. >> one of the other things that you mentioned was resection in many regions where the state has no power to command compliance with a lot that means they're doing a the rule of retaliation talk more about the lack of control may have contributed? >> this is very important in the south especially in rural areas i noticed most of those lynchings took

place in the rural areas because there were no police if you have an area with no police you have a much greater likelihood people taking the law into their own hands so this is what happened in the south as the remains orgy rule -- largely rural areas with the immigration from europe who packed into the city's so the south remained isolated and largely rural areas in this fed into the culture of taking the law into your own hands to respond to insult perceived or real and that

is why this culture of violence takes root more in the south. >> and what author argued even up through today this violence in the african-american community do you think we see something similar where the state neglects the african-american community that contributes to the cultural retribution to act? >> yes. ed is very interesting idea most contemporary books do leg victimization without looking at the offenders i thank you need to look at

both sides of the story. but i have heard it said and i suppose in one sense there is the under policing of black communities but of course, there is the claim there is over policing in the black community. is this responsible for people taking the law into their own hands? i am not fully persuaded. i think it is more likely that is the traditional way there and if you are insulting door offended you take care of business and resort to violence. often times young men are members of gangs if they have a quarrel between gangs it is just an extension of that type of personal

violence i don't think it is a matter of lack of policing i think that's just the way things are done and have always been done that way so i was not in full agreement with that author with her point in fact, i note that where police made more arrests on homicides and the clearance rates used to be much higher but crime did not go down in fact, it went up so i am not persuaded

that more aggressive policing with respect to very serious assaults of crime would really change the culture of violence so can i go off on another issue? so what will change? culture what does change in this culture? i think once people indians to the middle class it changes the culture because once you move to the middle-class and applies to any group white ethnic groups or african-americans african-americans, they develop very strong disincentives of personal violence that includes your

family, your job your community and you're probably end up in prison as well so there are good reasons not to engage in violence. but by contrast as a young single male bandido seem to have a lot of lucrative opportunities ahead of you, then you don't have a lot of disincentives and that is why it is the young logan, mail that is most likely to engage in violence and most likely to except to be a part of this culture so i think the cure for this culture of violence is

movement to the middle-class said this isn't just a commissioner my part. when i studied the earlier period of the pre-'40's period i saw early cry rates among mexicans who come to the united states in the '20s and though seven italians between 1900 and 1910 and now especially the italians with they invested in the great melting pot than melted in moved to the middle class to move up the socio-economic ladder and kept their involvement in this also happened to the irish to have very high rates. once they are able to move

to the middle-class their culture is a variant and. so they stop engaging. so as we dismantle and we have got a long way toward doing so already and is african-americans this discussion that we have of high rates of african-american violence will not be made any longer.

>> so get into why crime tumbles so even in the '90s we see a decline in crime as precipitous as the rise what factors that lead to this dramatic change? >> and it was as sudden as the rise actually crime actually begins to fall in the early '80s. i think that happens because the baby boom generation that was a major player in the crime rises began to age out that is a well-known phenomenon of a criminologist since young men of 18 or late twenties or early '30's at the most

engaged in the most violent crime, as they age and move into their middle thirties they begin to retire from violent crime so what happens is the baby boom generation begins to a job in the early '80s my hypothesis is that would have continued to happen crime would continue to fall but for a new phenomenon that throw monkey wrench into the crime reduction of crack cocaine. that becomes the new contagion that takes place in the late '80s continuing to their early nineties with the crack cocaine epidemic

since 1993 then that crime rate continues to fall and they keep falling now we have the new low period a new trough for violent crime >> you say that we have this bubble created by crack cocaine so why doesn't this take us skyrocketing again what disrupts this? >> it did as a matter of fact in the late eighties or early nineties but why doesn't it continue? that is fascinating. contagion or phenomenon those that copy other's behavior we know they're very influenced by their

peers if they copy their behavior begin with a contagion relating to cocaine. intellectually they may know that cocaine is so disruptive the addiction and the likelihood to be arrested the shootings that take place from the cocaine gang all of these are intellectually known to the young people but it doesn't matter because it is cruel and it is cocky and therefore it becomes a contagion now this cocaine business is a major spike in crime.

why? first of all, the people who have become addicted to cocaine and crack form whereby a cooking process the creation of little pellets cocaine mixed with other things which is essentially cocaine these pellets when he did give off a vapor that is inhaled to give the euphoria this euphoria which is extremely intense wears off and maybe 10 minutes and then there is the craving for another. if you are poor in crack cocaine, although the poor neighborhoods because it was

told that two or $5 of four people could afford it so if your pour and you have a craving for more cocaine habit you get it? you can see where we're going. obviously mr. to engage in robberies, death, arson females get like a nonviolent theft theft, prostitution or would ever need to do to raise the money for cocaine. so that really stimulates robbery and assault the and the elegance. the other thing it causes our murders and aggravated

assaults. why? because the distribution getting the organized gangs that distributes the cocaine begin to compete with one another no obvious they can't go to the law to say they are employees -- imposing a my territory i won a court order that will not work with illegal substances by the way that same phenomenon in the '20s of the prohibition era of alcohol gains to the same kind of thing they started to kill one another territorial competitions so these murders and assaults when it was effective didn't kill them as seriously wound them and i should say these

were very young people and well-armed they had guns that they obtained illegally. this was a deadly combination you can see why it would cause crime to go through the roof with the major spike in the late '80s and early '90s and that snuffs out the trough for that decline that had begun so what happens? by the early '90s law-enforcement had toughened up because people were dying of overdosing after all it is very potent and getting other diseases from the use of the drug

heart diseases all sorts of pharmacological disorders could arise out of cocaine. because many were now rested the criminal-justice system toughened up many were sent to prison many were shot or wounded or killed so suddenly cocaine was not cool it was the realization that suddenly struck so as they say intellectually daly's new that but now i believe we have a contagion in reverse that was positive

we began to copy that abandonment and that wasn't just a regulation on my part there was a study in manhattan murder the people that were arrested during was tested and they found their age and determined through urine testing what drugs they're using and what they found those who were older had been using heroin which was the drug of choice instead of cocaine but those that were younger for using cocaine then it drops off tremendously even by people who were arrested so we know that cocaine use was declining dramatically 1993

and 1994 and that is when the crimes like begins. >> obviously explaining that crime drop is one of the most popular pastimes and two of those explanations is the hypothesis that legal abortion played an important role in the reduction of the use of leaded gasoline brings it down what do you think about these various? >> i don't think they are correct. they are intriguing. and there is a quantitative evidence for both researchers with the leaded gasoline steady and his colleague with the abortion study were very able and did the study carefully.

and there also have been mythological criticisms especially of the abortion study and apparently good criticisms but i think there's a bigger problem. the argument is abortion of course, was a legal through the mid-70s but when it became legal, a lot of unwanted babies were never born because they were aborted. now there is a promise that had the unwanted babies den born and lived and reached the ears of the late twenties it's more likely they would have to engage in criminal activity but since

they were aborted and did not live, there were fewer people to engage in crime that is the abortion period in the national so when it becomes legal in the mid-70s at 18 years to the period that corresponds beautifully with the mid 1990's when crime falls the only trouble with that is the same cohort of people of people having abortions reducing the population also lived through the period of the cocaine cry rise the same young record whort was responsible so i don't really understand how could

it be the same generation or cohort can engage in lots of crime and be responsible for the cry rise which happens a few years later in the same criticism applies to leaded gasoline those same cohorts by the way this involves the clean air act of 1970 that forced the removal of lead that was a great health benefit to everybody but it turns out lead in the beds bloodstream is associated with aggressive behavior or with a crime so the argument stimulus similar to the abortion argument is if you have people who have less

lead in their bloodstream engaged in less crime. had 18 years to the clean air act and you have a drop in crime bed again the same people who were blessed with less lead in their bloodstream also were putting cocaine in their bloodstream engaging in behavior in the early '90s so these theories are interesting but flawed teeseven looking forward to today with the headlines coming yoda of chicago were d.c. a popular pastime to suggest this trough may be at the end? >> get may be. we don't know.

criminologist are cautious because we need multi year we cannot go by one your spikes that could be the one-year phenomenon but when a look at the latest homicide figures for the biggest cities in the