source of revenue as a cd astronomically rising public debt end of the average children and our children's children, and through that frugality no desire of the economic and fiscal stability or prospect of return to the idealism in collective tranquillity of our fathers. cspan2: isn't that something quacks. >> nabi and how that becomes

a way of your country's future or are over the next couple of decades. in it is intriguing question. a lot of the policies eisenhower pursued would appeal he did believe the government had a strong role to play of the for structure of the interstate highway system but he foresaw that the affair state is something that politicians that they cannot control is a runaway train and we saw the future more clearly with america's role in asia and

the rise of china, the split without the fate of domestic politics. i can hear the historians it is called douglas macarthur a finalist for the pulitzer prize a great pleasure. spee1.

>> did scenes in so many ways to go back down for if to pull the man one direction but it goes back to and to support that that

divide history when dash gary that affects whether not against a major threat spee1 peabody

cspan2: t9 you have a book called t11 t15 what is that about did? >> guest: is a biography one of madison's notes and that was the only favor that we now live that took complete notes that summer the book argues they were not written in their entirety but madison's record is the most important account of that summer was a net i thought i would write a narrative or a story with that would have them mike from madison's perspective and as i began to investigate the note submit i realize there were a lot of mystery is that things were not quite as expected them to be and as a spent time with the notes with wonderful access at the

library of congress it was evident but this most important document is not what we thought. there in a bid fault and duties special permission. begins the them on the library of congress website with many documents and before this book it was important to look more carefully at the notes after working on it two years the library decided i could see that i kept my hands behind buyback. cspan2: why did that take two years been? >> guest: his notes are considered national treasure .

and the library is very cautious after a while those questions that i raised and it sets them little while. >> where did you look at the notes? >> been some of the letters is a the reading room pdf

best dash based on old fashioned and contextual evidence but the paper confirmed of what i suspected. madison took on the notes and folded them in half. and then at some point but just one of the wonderful things that we noticed that the last quarter of the manuscript be matched the

earlier in it confirmed back my suspicion that it was written later. cspan2: how long did you spend looking at these notes obvious they took watermark damages and it was wonderful >> how long have they been at the library of congress clacks after he died in the late '30's he left the papers to dolly madison, his wife when she sold them to congress congress did not think they're worth that

much money so finally friends been in congress agreed to buy the papers in the send those to washington with the notes at one time they were in the state department library and they move to the library of congress of originally their renegade volume than they have been disassembled of how modern people preserve them. cspan2: when renee first made public for everybody? >> guest: not until after his death 1840 published as he had left then he carefully prepared a revised copy of the notes he wanted them published in the middle of the collection that included all of his letters obvious so when the government first published that was an increase volumes with other papers.

cspan2: what credentials did you bring to this project was that part of the reason in the library said kevin b.? in mecca i am a lawyer by profession also my ph.d. in american history and one of the things the library new-line had written about medicine before as a law student and had worked with the materials what had been cataloged as ben jefferson been so they finally decided cspan2: o assure undergraduate degree by. >> university of wisconsin and then i went to harvard law school and ip hd there also. cspan2: why did you get both bob? >> by last year of law school i planned to be a regular lawyer a good friend

told me a professor was teaching the history of the constitution course that the law school in everybody would take it i doubt if everybody would be so when i and i was captivated a spent all my life loss school learning about the constitution of the summer last semester finally was some explaining why it was the way it was after that my court for a wonderful federal judge he said they should do more work in history so started in the direction in did not look back. cspan2: we did have bernard here but tell people felice he is. >> guest: probably the most eminent early american historians who won the pulitzer prize, every single prize you could win and trained in enormous number probably toots' generations of historians to make it

clear of interesting those struggles of founding the country. right now i stalin boston college law school first year property course with trust and estate and constitutional history. cspan2: set up so full constitutional convention and what happened by first into 2005 the historian of the house of representatives went with us to the hall of statues that the constitution center in philadelphia in here is just a little bit talking about james madison and washington >> you are standing next to only 5-foot 4 inches, a giant.

>> but the funny thing about it is if you become president of course we stand next to the people who really did but they tend to be looked at the stem point of the administration i think madisons greatest contribution to american history is the work he did with the constitutional convention and then the work of the first five houses of representatives and the first congress that pushed through the passage of the bill of rights. >> tell us what you can where was he from? >> that is a lovely place to visit because when you walk around everybody is a lot shorter than you think except george washington and a few people but still not

by modern standards he is from virginia and the eldest son of a prominent person who held a lot of slaves. he had wester gen yet to go to college is served in the virginia legislature what we call a confederation in congress borne 1751 he wasn't really old enough to be a big player in the revolution but madison's time will come with the generation not with the generation of offer independents he was quiet, fairly studious. cspan2: what about what he learned at princeton? what did he study? the image he studied very quickly everybody talks held he tried to get through

quickly he studied political thought college was run by people at that moment interested with a scottish enlightenment and european philosophy and medicine seems to have loved that although he doesn't have enormous numbers of notes of what he read as a young man there is only one book commonplace things he learned that wouldn't surprise me a lot of them learned many languages. he is a lot thomason and - - thomas jefferson and his more charismatic he read quickly he never held a great library he is a different kind of person. cspan2: this is a group of people at the constitutional convention you can talk about any of them.

charles was 29 alexander hamilton was 30 brando 34 madison 36 george mason 62 and franklin was in his early eighties. madison, a george mason also franklin had ben the movers and shakers at the time of the revolution in george mason was well known that the virginia for drafting the virginia bill of rights. medicine is so k. but then frankland drives him crazy he is thinking everything should be like the revolution madison competitor a little bit he

is captivated with a young girl group of charles pick me was a loophole younger drove him crazy in there is all lot of competitive desire for credit and jealousy whiffing charles pinkney and he writes a wonderful letter but it puts you back in a moment where charles pinkney has enormous handwriting where madison is crowing enjoying married life but then of course, you are not married yet who they were quite competitive in some ways spin hickey mentioned in your book somebody he was pursuing at the convention she was 16? >> cave wall lady was

interested long before he went to the convention and she was very young and famously he talks about her with jefferson. lot of the biographers have focused on her so i think he was quite an alberta of another woman who's a moment -- mother ran the boarding house for madison stayed married a person that was in prison in new orleans then died and that is sent writes a lot of letters to her and my guess he is quite close to her also. cspan2: you say 43 when he got married to dolly madison and a 25 bit but i want to show the physical brubeck bobby at independence hall where the convention and was held. when were the dates? >> that is independence

hall. they were there may 1787 through the end of the conventions of temper 17 and the delegates believe that they voted by state each state had a vote and the president was george washington would have sat covering the entire situation. cspan2: what about james madison? timothy don't know for sure. he had to everett things that different kinds but presumably e he sat up close with many of of of virginians they needed to vote together he was very close to people at the beginning like edmund randolph like then governor of virginia. cspan2: you imply james

madison was for openness in a little more transparency in that election was nailed down with their debates. >> we forget what we take for granted in the assembly's was not true back then when congress opened the senate remained closed through this 79 these when public outcry let them in people bought he should have the right to know what congress did to have a final product but yet didn't believe completely you should watch all the deliberations so people like to know but sometimes historians have misinterpreted that it was along secretive is pretty much normal only after does america really switch that the public has a right to

observe those delegates are representative. >>, many were there in power they chosen? >> by different people madison wrote that legislation in that said people should be elected the convention said different numbers of people to philadelphia and no. it is in the '70s most of that summer there is less than 50 people in the room by the end is the low 40's in terms of the election the there second venture inasmuch smaller than we imagine. cspan2: breaking down the ages and starts was someone who was 26 there were four, 14, 238, 60 and five

then franklin cynical and up the tail end. >> is that young? >> i don't think is that all. we know they are writing the constitution because we can look back bay did not really know that. the year before madison and others had gathered in annapolis to try and failed miserably the annapolis convention basically stops the have to say you need a better convention what important people go but it isn't clear it isn't complete leave the place to

>> >> is in that same room at the back, svp poll did not vote and you write a lot about the man your book you can see that on the screen that you have massachusetts

who wanted to be vice president and in the middle you have randolph and george mason they're both in virginia so why did they find? very people disagree why they did not sign edmund randolph drew back madison crazy randolph was a young and good-looking madison is very close the randolph goes off on his own to say we should have a president that is the me president's sometimes he is with medicine and sometimes he isn't kind of vacillates back-and-forth extremely irritating to medicine and that the end randolph to science he is not comfortable with the government. george mason says it is too powerful he wants the bill

of rights this no bill of rights so he refuses but jerry was the iconoclast very hard to pin down what he believed of anything but it is true some of the things he complained about he worried about the power given to the southern states for slavery he worried about national power said the plea of them to refuse to sign a edmund randolph as back to virginia and decides he is for the constitution and in favor of ratifying. cspan2: in your research of the founders hoosier favorite character? in terms of a character is frankland he had more one-liners than anybody else but for myself governor morris came across as the most interesting new layperson of the convention who speaks passionately about slavery there is

speech is that madison records in which boris basically says we will have a divided between the north and south so he is quite remarkable in that regard. cspan2: he is 35 and then he has a missing leg peck's vivid he would tell all various stories certainly the other delegates told stories he was one of the people that people love to tell the story he jumped off of a second story when doughboy but i think it was a carriage accident just a wonderful person doesn't stick to modern politics very much against slavery, but was intrigued by what will pledge to do one of the most interesting

moments is when he gets as the speech arguing the of wealthy will divide the two houses and to the wealthy and not well paid and everybody knows so he is an interesting banker. cspan2: of madison could have gotten what he wanted in the house in the senate what would he have gotten? america beginning a government of incredibly strong national power when senate to be based on proportional representation been most shocking he wanted congress to veto all bylaws of the state's high that was called the dash that the time we don't have that word is similar to what the british government have over the american colonies so he

went to far more nationalistic system and we can never imagine he loses that we have the system. >> accuses the great fight he is committed to get the senate to not have equal state representation he loses that and fights for weeks to build a coalition to win boathouses with proportional representation but no state is ever represented at the state and he loses that at a crucial moment he decides so much that he cares t-bills apolitical coalition that he can link the pre-large states.

>> guest: a great fabulous historian that is the standard story of the notes and that is what medicine when they were published with dolly madison said had happened but that is not true he did not know shorthand he wrote the notes during the day abbreviation been twice a week he tried to copy them over vague leave remembering what had happened so my book argues

the great speeches are almost given on saturdays because on sundays madison didn't have to work the convention so he could write what happened to the estate before but people may have some wonderful things that the convention but could happen on a thursday be probably don't know what about it. cspan2: how many people talk space? >> we have $0.10 the there are others believe have never found them like charles pinkney he said he had then you have a lot of money today if you found those but madisons are the most complete because they cover every single day everybody else is erratic or incomplete because i argue be madison was taking him as a political diary for himself but also for

jefferson who was in paris he did not finish them on the summer he got sec but to years later when jefferson comes back from paris madison scurries to try to complete them charles pinkney you are in the 10 others? >> scattered all over the united states at various libraries, new york york, hamilton notes are in the library of congress, all sorts of different notes in one of the great things about digital websites a group of people are working very hard to get more up on the web so more people have access. cspan2: cuddy's c. hamilton notes? >> the library said look at the microphone be. i quit while i was ahead and allied of access to madison.

cspan2: how many others did you read quick spinnaker read them all their collective enough volume dead in 1911 but i did not look at all of them. i hope the book produces a lot of work and people looking at the other nodes to see what degree years later. cspan2: we covered any event of yours in philadelphia and i thank you talked about when he was back 32 years old why is this adventuress to you? didn't there is some debate whether that was done if the library of congress did that with the early '80s or the younger man? i will got the library until proven differently but one of the things he looks small

and shy and quite young and most pathetic to the side living your life as a small person is an insight into his personality. cspan2: people think you're a lot younger? >> i do think i have an enormous advantage writing the book a lot of people that work on the framers of our men and because they are so interesting it is seductive to slip into thinking what if i was there but of course, women were excluded from the entire proceeding so for me that was helpful i had a distance that was helpful as a historian. cspan2: guess your environment in here is a

finnish but we don't know what he would prove commandeers what bird did you do your research? been restored working eight years ago which seems a long time ago i have two little daughters i didn't think 1/2 to take research trips and the was completely wrong be. at the time i wrote a lot in my office that work but a lot was done at my a little kitchen table in my tiny house brought my daughter is music lessons. now they are 10 and 15. >> did they have any interest quick spirit they are happy and eroded but they think dash and write a book for kids that also has penguin's life left. >> was the hardest part of the actual research? >> guest: it tells the story of the fact the

manuscript of this national treasure is and what we fought while trying to root chronologically think what was medicine encountering at the time? keeping this narrative straight was tricky and wanted a book that wasn't that long at the end of the day but still like books in print and they can get heavy if you carry them. i want to the actual text to be under 250 pages and i worked hard to get did that way. cspan2: you made some people mad? [laughter] gordon lloyd? from pepperdine? wager reaction to make it claims it has new pieces but simply presenting a way to

be primary text by the end of the author leaves "the reader" with the thought aristo primary text considering on its own terms writing a book encouraging americans to doubt the readiness of the founding into them one step further to concluding that it was ill founded. >> i disagree with that. i think one of the things the book tries to show is how remarkable it was to be in philadelphia that summer robin but they were not magicians and how much they struggle to figure out the right answer for the country be. as a red madison's notes brought it all back to life all the hard decisions, compromises what people were not certain about u.k. get back to suddenly not etched in stone stone pdf.

>> 17 unknown forces your book but there may be some disagreements going back 2014 here is a historian stephen i have 2.this out on the right-hand side the tops of the great lines in the bottom be a young colleague is an illegal this story is finishing a book called "madison's hand" be. she has an interesting theory which i find provocative but i don't except bad madison wrote the second part that the summer when he was at the convention this is important because it develops the argument back of the whole argument of faction said did madison wright this out before or during the

convention if your reworking historian is an interesting question. >> guest: we still talk about this we talked about last week i believe very much that those notes that you just showed were partially written in the summer but they were working notes madison like to revise what he thought he would go back . the convention after to add something new that he fought with this famous idea of part of federalist 10 the country will be so big we don't have to worry about the faction in taking over by cardio he was working that through in the summer others were also interested in the same idea of the madison repeatedly at the convention wanted a

structural solution he had the factions but he wanted the government to do something about it to make sure the factions would not take over he kept coming up with different political mechanisms so he thought of the state's got out of control maybe congress could check them he had all of these different ideas than the nine are adopted so when hamilton asks him to write the federalist project with him madison rights nsa that says whenever there is not likely to be a problem igo believe that he thought that i think it is a little bit of the did it work out hopefully nothing will go vomiting he hoped to solve the problem. cspan2: put this into context the people that lived on this land wanted to change the way we were governed by?

>> at the time of the revolution there was a governing document noted -- and as the articles of confederation 1776 and 77 and that is really our first constitution there is only one branch of government and every state had one vote there was no judicial or executive branch there was the president but just in the chair of the committee of congress that sat in case of emergencies of congress was not in session. madison did not work with the articles of confederation and some men in philadelphia did like john dickinson from delaware bob that madison bottles articles were terrible and wrote notes explaining the problems but the states were

not sufficiently controlled so he started to read around to figure out what kinds of governments work in jefferson sent him the two great encyclopedias and madison read those and came up with a lot of examples where historical a confederations have collapsed in believing that kept them together was jealousy been that is not a great segment for a country. cspan2: the annapolis convention he was involved how did he find himself in the middle of proposing plaques be met people debate if he was the mover and shaker completely but he thought there should be washington was very involved in actually gets the maryland delegates together to think about that 1785

washington has the knowledge vernon and then they go to annapolis hamilton comes down so they tell congress have another convention them large leave because the virginians will show up and the delegation just passed to wakeup and they're pretty sure massachusetts will show what soleil said they will have a big convention and with time tried to write a document. cspan2: this is long after so this is all during the time when the united states tries to figure out what kind of government doesn't have? not a monarchy but nobody knows the kind of government that we have today we often forget we are the first country in the brill to have

this kind of government. cspan2: lot of people are probably watching wondering what are they talking about blacks when with the federalist papers written and how many were there be and what did they do? >> incredibly important today alexander hamilton left leg convention with back to york he knew there'd be a terrible fight and could he decided to start a massive plant with an editorial this paper will reasons they should ratified the convention. but then he got six and agrees with hamilton and

badly wrote these papers writing about congress and they wrote incredibly quickly writing big influential in virginia and republished so one day historians debate is how influential was this outside of new york? but since then people decided they saw on up many of the ways that people and general bought the constitution was a good idea cspan2: there are 85 pet is the fall of '87 mostly done by the following year.

cspan2: this one is from amy as a curator at the central library talking about "the federalist papers" but keep them in mind thomas jefferson was in paris. >> this was one of job -- jefferson's copies so what has a unique inscription the first one reads for the honorable mr. jefferson to john j. and then a present for mr. jefferson gave his copy to the scottish philosopher and mr. stewart writes i was told that the greater parts of the papers were written by mr. matheson

-- madison. sa o after words as they become increasingly famous son they disagreed after hamilton's death and then mattison said no that there are some that historians disagree on. >> check out these numbers.

>> guest: madison wrote most and then in the beginning and then he writes the great as they. and then write about congress and then hamilton writes and that was hamiltons idea so then he writes a few. >> as a pair asa a federalist nine of how you

govern a large territory? medicine copy step from the convention for federalist and he was probably bracing for. cspan2: and we talk about be interest but dash leading all of that would not surprise them. so one of the things they constantly worried about was the sense all of politics involved the struggle between ambition and greed and that you always try to balance those things to make

a government that would somehow work even though you do that would be deeply flawed and motivated not only the right reasons but the country is is divided into two groups and then have attended those on the other. >> did madison with the national central government? >> when jefferson and comes back he later wrote it took awhile to get his feet on the ground and as he stays

longer he begins to think that while he is gone to be interested in that monarchical government. said he reads everybody of national power intend day want to be the supreme excellency. and then they have something like a monarchy and out of them comes the early

republican party it doesn't work out to be the same but they use the word republican isn't incredibly important they didn't believe in democracy but never public where the people were filtered through. cspan2: how did you protect yourself when writing your book that the historian world "madison's hand" event ? >> guest: people i think were quite interested.

as they wear it generous with their time and i paid one of the foehns - - one of the things that in the end but why would lead madison have carefully taken notes all summer instead of working on creating a government? he does to keep track of things for himself, explain to jefferson but then he gets so busy he stops and he goes back to create a better record later and that is more plausible than the notion he sat there somehow participating at the same time while taking elaborate notes. cspan2: so with the time sequence so the convention is over? he lives to me 85 he lives

10 years after adam's did jefferson died, and does he spend and when? >> he finishes the manuscript babar rose the journal from washington. >> and to fix that up to a person makes a copy as the terms of the pages and in 79. cspan2: and they don't think

about it and then he retires and then publish the manuscript he worried most does his life began to keep track to let the convention and was still alive but two of the people who have pretty good though it's the politics changed again. adams regrets the 17 nineties