if you put up on your facebook page, let's discuss islamic extremism, what kind of response would you get to that? >> actually some of our hosted to talk about this in different angles. we did get people who are very much angry at the terrorist groups who are quoting some of our audience, defaming islam. many of the audience members tried to explain how daesh and other terrorist groups using islam to commit their crimes and

how they portrayed negative image of moses around the world. sometimes we the people are sympathetic to terrorist ideas and we see that our audience comes in and tries to reason with those sympathizers and show them how wrong they are reaching out what they're preaching is wrong and give their examples of how terrorism is negative. >> you been watching "the communicators" on c-span. if you like to see some of our previous programs don't do c-span.org your. >> today, to an author and investigative journalist sally denton talks about her book, the profiteers, which takes a look at the back till corporation, one of the largest incident and construction companies in the world. q&a errors weekdays in august at

7 p.m. eastern time. tonight on booktv -- all of this tonight on booktv in prime time on c-span2. >> tonight, the communications business middle is broadcasting networks including alhurra and radio sawa. we speak with the president of the middle east broadcasting networks, fran mires.

about how they should democrats values with an audience that would otherwise be exposed to a broader spectrum of opinions. >> we been on the air for 12 years, and over that period of time i think the audience has come to learn that it's not propaganda. we do strive to be balanced, but we also provide topics. we cover topics and we provide information that is not readily available. >> you are not enough people telling the stories of the difficult it is to be a woman and a girl child. so how many stories have we done on child marriages? i can even count. >> so you can do enough because really they are not telling the story enough. it's too sensitive, too close to home. >> radio voice is a campaign we launched in september 2015 to encourage people in the middle east to engage and be part of a discussion of important issues in the region, including

extremism, root causes of extremism and unemployment, human rights, women trust of all these issues that are important to the arab. >> violent extremism in africa is on the rise according to the undersecretary of state sarah sewall are just part of a recent discussion on u.s. efforts to counter religious extremism in countries across the continent. the center for strategic and international studies in washington, d.c. hosted this discussion. >> good afternoon, everyone. welcome to csis, and it's great to see all fear, and welcome to our online audience as well. my name is jennifer cooke.

i direct the africa program here at csis, and i'm very pleased to be organizing in conjunction with the u.s. institute, the commission for international religious freedom, today's session on violent extremism, religious extremism in africa, looking at there is responses of that. through the course of the next month, the commission and csis will be hosting a small series of off the record roundtables. each one looking at different models, different places, different interlocutors and promising models, what has been missing from some of the endeavors to counter extremist ideologies within africa. we don't have africans at the table today. unfortunately, the ambassador

was unable to join us. we hope we will have her at a later session. she's a really fantastic woman and very much devoted to this issue into the critical issue of education in all of this. but today we are really delighted to have, to lead a its author, dr. sarah sewall who is the undersecretary for civil security, democracy and human rights at the u.s. state department. doctor school has been previous work of harvard kennedy school as director of the carr center for human rights, and kobe prestigious center and the program on human rights and national security. she was a member of the defense policy board, deputy assistant secretary of state for peacekeeping and humanitarian assistance in the clinton administration, worked for senate majority leader george mitchell and was an oxford scholar sometime back.

she has been one of those voices within the state department that has been persistent and consistent in making sure that this issue of countering violent extremism remains on the radar screen. it can be very easy to devolve quickly into kind of security measures when you are talking about east africa or the horn. i'm not saying that those are easy but the much more difficult part of all this is in changing the social norms and the social interactions and the thinking and the hearts and minds and the grievances and frustrations of many of the young populations who are drawn into some of these movements. it's critically important that, particularly for the united states not to kind of reinforce

in partner governments minds that idea every this is a military situation. i think you've been one of the voices that has kept that up and made that very clear to you as partners in the fight against this. i would like to turn to you. dr. sewall is agreed to offer a keno, open up for some questions and then return to a panel with terje ostebo, from the university of florida, department of religion, department of african affairs, department of islam. he keeps adding programs and departments and tiffany lynch who is a senior advisor at the u.s. commission for international freedom. but first we're going to turn to dr. sewall and then open it up for questions from you all. so welcome. we are really delighted to have you.

thank you for the terrific teams at csis and u.s. commission on international religious freedom for bringing us together. as you probably know, we at state rely on csis's world-class research and analysis to help us look around the corner and make sense of emerging challenges. so i'm pleased that you've taken on the topic of religious extremism in africa. as your project implies, policymakers need to better understand both how religion affects issues of security and stability, and equally important, how to encourage and reinforce non-violent, tolerant expressions of faith. the social fabric and the political dialogue.

so while much global attention to violent extremism focuses on syria and iraq, religiously motivated violent extremism is on the rise in africa, in east africa, west africa, the sahel and the maghreb. so this is a really vitally important, it's still under study topic, and thank you for taking it on. i would like to start at the beginning by simply stating the obvious, which is that freedom of religion, freedom of conscience are bedrock principles of u.s. experience and of u.s. foreign policy. the united states favors no particular faith. within our own borders we embrace all religions.

u.s. policy of the worst of the use of any ideology, not just religious ideology, to justify violence or to violate universal rights. and the u.s. policy also rejects the claim that specific religions are the cause of terrorism. as president obama has said repeatedly, we are not at war with islam. we are at war with people who have perverted islam. in africa and around the world, religion propels many people to do inspiring good. in my work as under secretary, one of my greatest privileges has been meeting people who have from all religious traditions been central to advancing the health and the strength and vitality of their own communities. last march i traveled to zanzibar, a small island off the coast of tanzania.

when i was there as often do i met with representatives from different local faith communities. this baby have a particular impact on me because it was in this discussion that i learned what nasa does to a person's face. sheikh zaraga is more than a local imam. he's an institution. he won people's respect not through fiery sermons, but through tireless, thankless work for people in the community. connecting the unemployed to jobs. mentoring aimless youth. preaching tolerance and respect. his face was the face of islam, positive, hopeful, peaceful. when attackers hurled acid at him, they shook the community to its core. extremist violence had come to

zanzibar in the last couple of years, seeking to terrorize in the name of the same religion the community had practiced for centuries. sheik zaraga's faith was being perverted and rebranded. elsewhere in africa, violent extremism is linked to purported religious tenets. some examples, boko haram abducting young girls who have the audacity to want to learn. the lord's resistance army enslaves children to carry out horrific acts. rogue followers of traditional religions attack people with albinism to traffic their body parts. homophobic vitriol spouted in some churches and mosques has inspired mobs to murder gay people in the streets of abuja, kampala, and elsewhere. many violent extremists harness religious claims to cloak their depravity and inspire followers. sadly, acts of violence in the name of religion are as old as

religion itself, and they persist in communities around the world, from so-called honor killings to wife burnings. but today what we see in the meditation of the strings is novel and dangerous. it's the rise of organize, heavily armed nonstate actors that justify violence and territorial ambitions with religious ideologies. groups like al-shabaab, boko haram, al-qai'da in the maghreb, and the lra. these groups threaten africa's every achievement and aspiration, from economic growth, to women's rights, health care, and education. for africa's future, and for global security, they must be defeated. that begins with understanding what allowed these groups to take root and spread. we cannot ignore the influence of violent religious ideologies that inflame passions and dehumanize the other. al-shabaab and boko haram, for example, justify their brutality

in twisted interpretations of salafism. many al-shabaab leaders were indoctrinated in ultra-conservative religious schools in the middle east. the lra's purported faith entails a warped version of the ten commandments that it seeks to impose on others. when these groups repeatedly invoke religion to spill blood and inspire followers, we cannot pretend religion has no role. but our analysis cannot stop there, because the story is far more complex. that's really what we look forward to this joint work between csis and the commission to further unpacking. we know that many other factors play a role in spurring people to violence or making them susceptible to violate ideologies, including religious ideologies. these factors will be unique to local circumstances, but they will likely also reflect broad

themes such as marginalization, poor or abusive governance, limited opportunity, and feelings of discontent and dislocation. aqim exploited feelings of marginalization across northern mali to establish new outposts of terror. most of boko haram's followers hail from historically neglected regions of northern nigeria. political and economic exclusion among the ethnic acholi helped spark the lra in northern uganda. in many parts of africa, vast ungoverned territories provide violent extremists areas to train, recruit, or tax. deep in the forests of central africa, the lra and boko haram are free to sustain their evil. they have safe havens from which to strike and wreak havoc on communities before melting away to recover and strike again. government incompetence and

abuse also fan extremist violence. in east and west africa, corruption allows extremists to cast themselves as pious alternatives. in somalia, years of anarchy in the 1990s led some to welcome al-shabaab's promise of security and the rule of law. unlawful and excessive force by government, often in the name of security, can empower factions arguing that violence is the only option. after the former nigerian government's spate of police brutality and extra-judicial killings, boko haram escalated its campaign of terror. similarly, alleged abuses by the ethiopian military in somalia elevated al-shabaab by allowing the group to tout itself as defender of the faithful. violent extremists are also abetted by more recent trends linked to globalization, like the proliferation of information and communications technology,

which gives them new platforms to cultivate followers, connect otherwise distant sympathizers, and recruit beyond areas of their physical control. violent extremists similarly exploit rapid population growth and industrialization across africa. countless people, especially young people, have left villages to find work in teeming cities and make sense of their place in a new economic and social order. adrift in these rapid changes, violent ideologies promising purpose, community, and identity find appeal. compounding the problem, extreme weather events made worse by climate change add to experiences of dislocation and discontent. all these factors help explain the emergence of violent extremist groups, and they raise

serious alarm about the vulnerability of communities across africa struggling with similar issues, especially as da'esh seek new footholds for expansion on the continent. the united states stands with africans to prevent the spread of extremist violence. across the continent, but especially in east africa and the sahel, we train and equip foreign militaries, share intelligence, and support police to enhance border security. these are well-known elements of our counterterrorism approach in africa. but it's critical and i want to spend a few moments talking about the newer and equally vital but still emerging complement to the characters and approach which recall countering violent extremism, or cve. counterterrorism focuses on existing extremist threats,

cve seeks to prevent the next generation of threat from emerging. cve emphasizes governance, elevating issues of rights in the counterterrorism partnership. it calls on governments to embrace a do no harm approach. this means working with security and police forces to end impunity for abuses, embedding public institutions with mechanisms for transparency, and reforming prisons to separate petty criminals from violent ideologues. engagement around cve can work. after months of outreach by u.s. diplomats, the police chief of mombasa began to openly question whether the practice of widespread, indiscriminate round-ups was compounding the problem. the county commissioner of mombasa told us, we are trying to stop being firefighters.

encouraging that shift can be hard. in the wake of extremist violence, governments and citizens often want quick results and tough shows of force, making it easier to fall into harmful patterns of overreaction that can compound the problem. countries must push back against the propaganda violent extremists use to twist vulnerable minds and pull communities to their orbit. part of that work is partnering with the tech community to disrupt extremist incitements to violence on the internet by flagging content or accounts tied to known terrorists. but it can also mean helping amplify the voices of mainstream religious leaders to denounce the faith as an insult to the deepest tenets of true faith. up to 90% of africans say

religion is "very important" in their lives; giving african religious leaders enormous influence. we can help better equipped those leaders to use that influence by training imams to use facebook, twitter or text messaging to reach a wider audience. we can help behind the scenes promote interfaith dialogue to address sectarian tensions that inflame calls for violence. and we can certainly encourage other governments like morocco which has terrific regional initiative to train imams from gabon, guinea, kenya, mali, and nigeria on to help these religious clerics refute the violent perversions of islam on, with confidence in

terms of their interpretations of text. these steps are all important, but alone are insufficient because of violent ideologies and propaganda resident with people for a variety of reasons. it's not the ideology itself. it's who is drawn to the ideology and why they are drawn. these ideologies may resonate because they offer a variety of different needs that are likely to be unique to local circumstance and unique to the individual person. we can't simply refute or ask others with more moral authority of authenticity or connections to the community, refute what violent extremists are offering to the vulnerable. we have to i should address some of those vulnerabilities are help the people address some of those vulnerabilities themselves, to take more empowering and affirming steps to protect the vulnerable.

and this really, there's a role for government but fundamentally this is a community focused activity. it's about supporting communities to unleash their own potential and find their own sources of resilience. avoids the violent extremists try to fill our best tackle in town halls, schools and families. governments that stifle civil society and sideline communities sap their own power against violent extremism. so governments began, coming back to do no harm, need to lift any restrictions that have on civil society and make sure that there is the freedom to both communicate and act at the local

level a long the lines of cve tenants. here again religious institutions can play a vital role. in africa especially where states every week in performing core government functions, it's often religious institutions that fill the void, whether provide education or employment or even financing directly to the foldable. these roles can be important in curbing radicalism. cve recognizes this and calls for active engagement with religious communities, not just religious leaders who are overwhelmingly male and not especially young but also seeking to engage those from the communities who are not the crusty authority figures. people like classmates, sisters and peers, find ways to engage with other young people in the context, and the umbrella, independent of a faith community. women can play a vital role in our outside of a faith community

your african women hold very few formal leadership roles and faith communities but are often active members. win women's rights and status come under attack, it's often foreshadowing a broader shift towards radicalization and violence that should alert us to the potential for wider mobilization. i remember hearing the anguish of muslim women in tanzania, who lamented that they could barely recognize their faith in the weekly sermon because the tone had grown so hardline and exclusionary. ..

trust and a little creativity by the community that put these kid's a better path and saved dozens of young lives, where they may very very well have ben recruited to a fuller status. so that's the community left can do, and why it can be effective. over the last two years, the u.s. government has help this shift. secretary kerry empowered the bureau of counter-terrorism to embed this broader approach. in may, the state department and usa i.d. released their first-ever joint cv e. strategy

outlining how to unite tools. they also stood up to the engagement center that spearheads the messaging eferghts to seize the initiative for vulnerable hearts and mines by working through non governmental voilses n. east africa i'm proud of the pilot programs that we have launched that i hope will serve as a model in going forward through the ct p.f. process. what i had found when i traveled through africa was that we had variety of programs scattered across the continent that were not connected to one another and didn't have a strong theory of the case. what we have done with the pilot, is coming together, across our government, to pool funds, to conduct extensive

research, across the state department, and usa i.d. working with posts to develop a diagnosis of the problems. and then, designing an integrated program that focuses on key priority areas. in those areas it takes a taylorred approach to address the specific forces. so this is really a breakthrough, in terms of how the u.s. government thinks about the problem, and pulls actors together to provide more co here rent solutions. it's early, in phase, the programming has not gun in full. but it is so far exceeded our expectations in terms of the level of excitement that we

have, about the ability to show the effect of cv e. programming. because we need to be doing this, where this is extremism. we need to be careful, and we want to be able to show how and why those efforts have impact. at the global level the state department is helping foreign governments, and bodies help establish cve strategies, and counter messaging centers. and other institutions to share best practice the u.n. has taken up this cause. the u.n. secretary general developed a comprehensive preventing violent extremism, u.n.d. p. have mobilelized to help teachers, prevent rad ka

will a sayings with tools or helping african governments undertake cve programs. just last month the u.n. general assembly endorsed, the recommendations to strength strengthen their efforts. the positive approach that we have sought, and now pilot within the u.s. government is taking hold internationally. it is early days. but these responses to the drivers and sources of vi length extremism are critical if we are to avoid relying on military tools and reacting after the fact to violence. cve efforts recognize the limits

of government but they recognize the responsibility of government. they bring rights to the core, where they had not been in the past. this can create tensions, and difficult conversations but very important conversations that have to be happening as we seek to help partners understand how state actions can exacerbate extremism. we have to be clear eyed about the challenges. i made the argument why it is important now dimension of american, and international thinking, and policy. but i want to orr a few cautions as well. first, it takes time to change harmful government practices to strengthen public institutions and to repair trusts between communities that have been neglected by the state. second, there's no guarantee

that research can disintend gel violent extremism. it's central to better use of resource. but we don't have the perfect formula down. and the work that you'll be taking on is so important. in addition and to my dismay, some international actors, sometimes appear reluctant to adapt their programming to address vi length extremism as an issue. even as they set, everything, that they work for, from women's health to economic development to human rights. so we have a little bit of a culture clash within that world to address. perhaps most importantly, resources remain limited. last year the united states spent less than 200 million dollars on programs that we

could describe as cve programs, world-wide, that's less than the cost of one fighter jet. it's difficult to explain the magnitude this problem. you know, when you think about the level of attention that terrorism and the devastation, there is still an unfathomable gap, between what it spends for the threats and what it spends to prevent them. so we're in the right direction and we have a long way to go. foreign assistant is not a limitless resource. and within that realm prevention work is sometimes the hardest to gain political support for because when something doesn't happen it is harder to put your name on it and take credit. but this is all to say that strengthening is really important. the research and the evaluation on the back end.

we're very encouraged, that bodies, the world barge, african development bank are starting to lend their expertise into this area. there are also challenges in identifying and find the right local partners on the ground. local groups, with the greatest influence over the communities that are most vulnerable are often very different partners than those with whom the state department works. that creates challenges in terms of identifying those partners and they may not always want to work with other governments. the current law that prohibits support can prevent us from assisting those who are best positioned to help us. so, the group kenya, de

radicalizeds fighters, and their work is essential for peeling off the supporters and creating powerful voices. but under existing law, they would have to itemize every expense to confirm that u.s. funds provided no direct assistance to former fighters. that's not how this organization is set up to funks. of course, those best position oaftd ground have the means for reporting, budgeting, that will allow them to apply for and administer international funding. so we have to look at these practical issues, to figure out how to better partner with third party's ground. and, i want to put in a plug here for the global community, fund, which is now piloting

programs, in nigeria and soon kenya because they are seeking to do just that in a global consortium. one of the other ways in which we're seeking to help strengthen communities is through networks of communities. the resolve network, researching connects local researchers, who are studying it, and connects them to national and international organizations, that can partner with them. we have helped launch the strong cities network that can help municipalities, cities in kenya, senegal, share what works and didn't work. so, both of the government level, at the community level and individuals and networks,

we've been trying to build support for this broad new preventive approach. this is real astruggle to protect communities across africa. i consider it humanitarian work because the damage, by violent extremism measures not only in the blood that they spill but the investments they deter, the textbooks, and the women and girls that they enslave and the potential that they squander. it's really important to have met people, like the hike is because it's easy to think, my goodness, how do we make a dent? >> after they moot takelized his

face, he insisted on tolerance and respect, and continuing to build peace. he was hungry for answers as to why this was happening. and i committed himself to answering those questions. we have to stand with him and with leaders across after from a ka who are struggling to do the same thing. at the same time we have to reject framing the problem, solely as one of religious ideology, because it misses that broader picture, that i just imposed upon you. it limits what we can do, if we think of it just as problem of religion. we know they're not born violent. they become some, due to many reasons.

so where religion gust movements operate we're not powerless to prevent their spread. much of what we do to avert it is worth pursuing on its own. giving people a stake in their community and greater confidence, ending government abuses and improving basic education and health services. these are within our grasp. we can take debates and we must win, on behalf of the most vulnerable communities. so the complexity of the threat while it invites your attention, is into the call for complacency. but a call for all of us who care about africa ca's future to get to work. thank you. [applause] >> great. thanks, so much. we're going to take some questions before you depart.

yeah, that was very comprehensive kind of view of the many dimension that's feed into this. in terms of the next administration coming in, where are the areas that you see, in your position that you would like much greater investment to happen? do you think we're getting the balance rite, even within the non military side of our efforts to counter violent extremism? are there areas that bother you that we're not doing a bit more? >> well,ishish is a strong word

within, even when we think about preventive measures, we have very different types of challenges. we have the frontline states that are dealing with refugees and potential violent extremism, in the middle east, in africa, in asia. in most constinentsds and, the proximity of the threat and the scale of the challenge and existing resources varies. in my judgment the potential for the threat to spread in africa, suggests, to me that we should be devoting additional resources, in the prevention work in africa. because, in the middle east we are in a place where we are engaged in fighting a war. we do have armed conflicts in africa, some whiching in either

u.s. or partner or international forces. but there's a lot of important prevention work to be done there. so, i wouldn't want to suggest that we should stop doing anything that we're already doing, but i think it's really important that we have more resources. when we do, i think a significant amount of them could be fruitfully used, in africa. >> it struck me, from an event that we have had here on elections, and sorry if anyone was here, that were abruptly aannualed and then rerun with the opposition boycotting, this on an island that's muslim with a population that is 60% under 15 years-old. it strikes me that, to just let that happen, it creates those very conditions of the

injustice. in a neighborhood where extrememism ever mist groups are trying win over recruits. it says something about how do we pursue ouro bustly our democracy, and how do we reply to key partners, in assistance? taken atanzania is a partner. this is not in their interest in the long run either. the other case, that will be interesting, is any gear prea . because, we have hundreds of young women who have been captured. some sent for humanitarian

assistance and then, sent off, to prison, nobody is quite sure what to do with some of these, we know that so many members, were coerced, and didn't particularly, after the death, didn't go for purposes but were coerced. and now that while justice and what do you do, how do you both serve the members of families, who have been brutallized, and yet, how do you not confine some of these very young fighters who may have been coerced into it from spending the rest of their lives in a very unhappy and brutal life. so there's an opportunity in the place like any geary a, where you have such a huge body of

people that i hope that the international community can encourage nigeria to do so. they did have a de rad dal ka will a sayings program. >> if we highlight those that are concerned. we all talk about northern, but the center of the country is beginning to fray, and it's become a, it is a little outpost beyond which government officials cannot travel and

there is no presence. we're at risk of losing mali. so, there are just, there are a lot of preventive work that can be done, in addition to work that can be done, in places where we're already seeing some progress and some populations that have come under protection. nigeria, is less cve than government administratetion. and the lack of service to those that have been liberated. >> newed in the works of grievance that would make a lot of sense for extremenisms who want to mow billize.

>> those that want to pull, the farmer attacks, becoming something after national network, are things to watch for. let's take some questions from the audience. >> thank you so much. i think it's really important what you highlighted about how reactive some of our policies can be, in cve, even though it should be prevent takive. in terms of work towards an early warning system, like what we have seen, whether or not there's any work to develop the networks, and the groundwork to have in place throughout communities, in early warnings

to identify vulnerable areas. i don't know that we got the networks down, but, i do think that, you are 100% right to highlight the need for indicators, to suggest when and where, particular kinds of interventions are most hopeful. when i look at the scale of need out there, i do wonder, whether we need a more fine grained analysis or act on what we know. we know a fair amount. there are some places that, as we were just discussing, do need attention for which we lack resources. so, i would, if i were trying to preortiz, do we need more awareness or more resources for

addressing those problems? my bias is towards, the resources, having said that there's a huge need. so, those are my thoughts. thank you. [inaudible] >> i was very encouraged to hear remarks, about,. [inaudible] >> however, i think we know, people -- and, looking for an answer, searching for something, and.

[inaudible] about the perversion of islam. [inaudible] i don't know what that would be. [inaudible] these people, isis or other groups are committing murder. and, somehow, such a level, that they couldn't simply see another .

>> well, they have been very helpful in debunkerring allegations those institutions operate independently, and, the saudi sources are generally speaking probably not going to provide the kind of alternative that your question implies, you're seeking. so, the, what, i think the -- what's been useful is the bodies that have had regional roots. people of significant esteem, individuals with particulars

steam. the more rack can training program, where, when these regional imams come, there are alternatives to be found, but in africa, right now, it's the more rock cans that are playing the key role. as you well appreciate the u.s. is not in a particular place to be dictating to religion gust establishments what they do or say. the key has has been to find the figures that have had

particularly, enlightning messages. doing what we can do direct other countries, religion is one of these areas, in which the u.s. experience, the distance between the state and relig gust institutions, suggests caution in how we think about it, for direct engagement. >> in terms getting more resources, do you think there are opportunity for public/private partnerships. >> sure. i mean, the -- some of the most interesting partnerships that

have been held to date, in my experience have resolved around things like tech camps and training. so, things having to do with technology where you can provide people with different tools and things that have to do with training, in different ways that are important for running organizations, or creating networks, doing outreach. those are terrific ways for public/private par they partner. a really under exploited steps resolves around mentoring, and economic development. so, a lot of what they work on are providing training or providing vocational programs for youth. the private sector is clearly in

the best position to articulate the past and then apply the the skills. that's an area that can be done locally and internationally. part of the challenge is that most of the companies, tend to be in areas that are not necessarily going to be the areas in which people are being trained. but there's a lot more that business can do if it can be convinced to see itself interest. therefore it is more likely to be locally based businesses, that do the economic empowerment. but i think there's a lot of that can be done on the tech side, by outside bodies. >> i do think there's a lot to be said for connecting people through markets, and

infrastructure sure, if you look at thes -- that are the places, where they're extremely isolated they get most of their food from algeria, because it is cheaper. northeast nigeria has very little interaction with the rest of nigeria, and has cross border connections. i was looking at, in the dhs, of these countries, in places like lack or chad, or tim buck to. no education rates are higher. 85 in a place like that.

but also the lack of any access to any news whatsoever, whether radio, newspaper or television or cellphones as well. so, how do you begin to connect communities in a way that makes them dependent on one another? if they are interdependent, that's been a big thing for me as well. one of the projects that we saw, was real alocal community, several of whom, who were reformists. lots of tension, and o.t. i., was started, a soccer match between them which evolved into weekly bank questions and, women were involved. and i ran into somebody at the airport, and, yeah, i was just, with my family that the play.

very uplifting i got a word, so, one more question. maybe we can squeeze in two. yes, the gentleman there. >> my question is about promoting democracy, in a place like tunisia, it has increased, it warrants a question is there a trade-off between democracy and violent extremism? how do we promote democracy?

>> anthony, from inner news. we're very proud of the work that we have done all over the world, and i was wondering if you could say something more about how you define cve and what is not cve? >> so, you know, the reality is that, violent extremism spreads in both democratic and non democratic countries, just ask the equip shans. the long-term future for the repressing of population says not good when it comes to

violence, period. and that it creates vulnerabilities that are exploited. if you look at the history of how violent extremist groups spread, particularly if you if a the example of how dash moved from being, a movement within syria, to sweeping across iraq, it was a sense of political disinfran chies meant, that the state no longer represented those. non- responnive governments, are into the good recipe for combating it. so it's not democracy per se, it's the quality.

i think that is what is so important about the cve dialogue because it introduces, if you think about counter-terrorism, as a conversation between governments, we have a common enemy and we will fight them and cve, says there is a common problem and you have to think about how your actions think about that problem. there's different discussions, at the bilateral level. so, i don't think there's any recipe for grievance and the spread of violent extremism. but it's clear that a lack of ability to participate in political life or to feel, that it respects ones on individual or community, are things that make people more you will have neverrable to violence and not good. in terms of moderate voices, the

basic distinction that the u.s. makes is those who promote violence and those who don't. i have tried to stay away from this question about as respects of faith, and focus on actions. if you are a parent, i love you. i don't like what you are doing. so the same thing, you can have your faith, but i don't want you to be violent. the key there, we use the word moderate, the key, for the purposes of this broader fight is violence. so, i think that's the, it's the nonviolent element, regardless of whether or not you believe in jihad, i think the key thing is whether or not you would see violence as a means to an end. whether you're a christian who things that violence is

legitimate, it is problematic. we'll at that time last one, quick, quick. thoorn you for your time. i had two questions. the first one being, when you said that, organizations are reluctant to change the program to adopt cve approach, if that is due to funding or grant issues or if it goes deeper into organizational missions and goals don't reflect that goal? second question -- >> one. >> okay. there are some organizations for

whom the term cve is problematic. i much prefer the preventing violent extremism. but, the, for some people, the language suggests, security of humana terry i. i don't see it that way. i see the principles penetrating the conversation that is powerful for the future of the planet. they reject alternative ways to accomplish that mission. so i'm hopeful over time that that will change.

but it remains a barrier. >> we are at time. thank you so much. >> thank you. for the first of august, that is great group we've had here. thank you for joining us. we hope we can come back to you and we look forward to reading your report. p. [applause]

>> okay. great. well, that was terrific. i do hope we can persuade her to come back down the line and hear some of the follow-up from what we're doing and what the state department has been able to accomplish. we're going to turn now to tiffany lynch. she's a long-time friend, she's a senior analyst policy analyst at the u.s. commission for international relen gust freedom, has done a lot of work on nigeria but well beyond, in fact, she came to us, with the thought of organizing this

roundtable and looking at some of the questions, getting expert people around the table to look at some of these questions and the commission is commissioning a shorter report, that will feed into that process. so, why don't we begin with you, and then, turn to terri.

importance on the role of religion in their lives and society and the world of religion in government. with this growth of the diverse religion gust actors we know that religion ever len beginning is growing. >> even though christians are supposed to remain the highest of the followers, the percentage of growth within islam is increasing. so stronger competition between the relig gust communities. it's important to have this broad mind when we look at it.

how do these factors impact extremism? good interfaith relationships amongst the community. this is what we'll be grappling with. so, at the commission we have been following africa, since we started in 1999 and we have seen these changes. ten years ago, we only reported on 3 countries. since then, we have also added, the republic, e ethiopia, mali, and, somalia. that we advocate. i think this is because of the expansion of extremism on the continent.

when we look at extremism we think of the most violent acts. we look at the groups in mali and now expanding or executing, in neighboring countries. these groups have had a profound impact. they have killed christian converts, and, ais sin nateed, government officials, and. implementing shirt ria law. >> they have attacked churches, during worshiping. destroyed churches.

attacked mosques, in the northeast. during ramadan. and aticketted, worships and killed persons engaged, in islamic behavior. and, we're all familiar with the destruction of historic shrines. so, in addition to these violent religious extremism. we have seen quieter good spoongs. these are a reduction, in relationships, between muslims and christians, increased lack of trust. decreased dialogue. the council, the interreligion

gust body, and led by the presses, and it didn't meet for multiple years because of a lack of trust and because of, disinterest in dialogue. we have heard christians, refer to all muslims refer to them as, and and infidels. we hear christians connect to muslims, to a broader jihadist network. a recent poll found that 40% of african christians consider muslims to be violent. a direct impact that we see of violent groups on the community. we also see not only between must lumps and christians a real disconnect within faiths.

concerns about dialogue and concerns about hate speech. so we also hear muslims are very concerned about extremism within their community and faith. more so than they are from the other side. christians concerned emextrememism. >> asset forward within their national could have venoms and other human right standards. so, one response has been the wholesale targeting, and,

supported membership or support of extremist groups. kenya, and, muslims on the coast. we have also seen governments promote particular interpretations, and, promotion of what the government views of islam. we see this in ethiopia, with the promotion of the interpretation of islam. we also see religious umbrella, and thes sam lick affairs, and religious council. what also, this past year, we hear about those in other countries, trying to institute registration of laws to monitor

the certification, the qualification of religion gust leaders and monitor hate speech. they proposed one and it was exrit sized and it was shelfed. it is still considered for review. this past year we have seen a number of it in western african countries. with this, i like to take a positive view, we do see some heroic acts. but we see a prolive fear raising of efforts by religious leaders. they describe members as tolerant and honest. going forward, one of the big

challenges, is how do you connect these local initiatives, with states? how do you encourage dialogue between them? so it's not a state but bottom of the approach and how does u.s. support these efforts, in the way that has grass root supports? some of the programs has been increased support for education. education reform, religious freedom and dialogue. increased opportunities for intra faith dialogue. support for documenting hate speech, and respect for freedom of the speech. increase programs. most importantly, not just the military approach, but how do you under take developmental responses. thank you.

>> if you are not familiar with africa, just the vast majority of countries and history, you have a tolerant and inclusive society within, in which, islam and christianity have lived side-by-side. one of the remarkable things about nigeria, was despite all the provocations of bombing churches and mosques, you didn't really have this mass -- you see trends but you didn't -- turn into this mass populust it

remained quite resilient and overall tolerant. you do see pockets of it, just to put this, which is troubling, but, i think also, is really important. they have remained stable and respectful. terry, for you now. [inaudible] >> throwing ideas out. and perhaps you can share some of your thoughts on what you have seen, as you look at the horn and the coast where you think the united states and others might go wrong and where you think they might go right. >> okay. >> sure. well, first of all, thank you for inviting me, and thank you for come. much of what i like to speak

about has been covered already. so i'll try not to repeat myself. but, i would like to talk a little bit about trends, focusing on the horn of a from a ca and eastern africa and then talk about responses, that have been made towards religious extrememism. and and possible ways out. i think it's important to underline that it is not the main features, of islam. it is an exception. the vast majority of the muslims are not engaged in any kind of violent activities. that doesn't mean that it is not there. but i think that's a very important, something to be mentioned. and then, second licks when we

talk about, what is happening, focusing on horn, and east africa, yes, it is clear that, what we are seeing are part of broader religious discourses, because even those are not monolithic. there are a lot of variation in terms of what they see things. and then, also, important, is that, should be that these are issues that are also connected to local -- to more local problems. i want to give some few exam possession on this, the kind of see how, what kind of local issues, and horn and east africa do we have that's important to understand this. before that, i i want to underle that we should not reduce

extremism as, a result of poverty or unemployment. you have to recognize there are issues at state. we have to acknowledge people do things as they see themselves acting on behalf of god. we have to think that these are questions related to identify takefy. questions of loss, that is not only of an economic character. so it is complex. in horn, it is obvious in driving much of the instability, and violence we see on the horn. there have been repeated prophets made that all has been

back is going to die. what we see, that, the way it has shifted from a more, less organized from having massive attacks and controlling territory. shifted more towards, classic cal terror way of acting to car bombs, and, sporadic attacks which reflects that they are weakened. but i think we shouldn't write them off. again, we don't -- this is a movement, we don't know too much about what is going on within the inner circle. the divide between international, and then more local one. i think it's more complicarrotted than only like two sides. but, it's also notice, is that they have in spite of being

weakened, they have been able to make broader impact on the regions. this is something which you see clearly in kenya, where, there have been increased recruitment towards a sha back, and affiliated groups. such, but, the attacks. repeat attacks, in northwestern region has shown that there's a spill year effect. and then we also see that not only are ethics recruited but also must lusms from a non somali background. that's something to be noted.

they have been active in their recruitment of use of the language, in trying to gain support. that's the new development. of course, this, you know, the community has a long history of grievances towards the government,. >> it has a long feeling, by the central authorities so you have this local discontent, with, from the local coastal community, kind of come together, so to speak. similar kind of increase, in in attacks.

very few are being represented because they're not significant enough. attacks, that we heard about. and then also, an increased communication with actors, on the mainland in tanzania and actors in kenya, and somalia. we see this, to a less extent than in kenya. but it is still there. and then, of course, it is particular, and i hear it's -- so many layers of issues that feeds into what we i think too often, are labeling at religious extremism. the island, versus mainlanders, taking jobs.

all these are feeding into the broader questions, where they have wanted a greater extent, from the union, from the main land, so these are also things if you want to address, the question, the problem you got consider all these dimensions that are taking place.

with local communities. particularly in kenya posts westgate the attack on westgate mall but also the attack on the university and where the kenyan government and terror police unit, which has been where they allegedly and i think they are pretty good evidence to confirm that they have engaged in nations of clerics and unwanted

muslim access particularly on the coast and the second intervention, the kenyan government watch in 2014 where they basically did a racial profiling of somalis, rounding them up in the main stadium and i don't know how many thousands were stopped and interrogated and put in prison. but what happened was of course anger from the local muslim somali immunity towards this and i think it wasn't the smartest thing to do so to speak. most of east african, the horn of africa is not engaged in so-called soft interventions. this has mainly been outsourced to use that word, two other

groups. tanzania is expressing an interest in increasing interest in engaging that an exception is we mentioned the hobbit's campaign which started in 2011 where the government invited this obscure organization from lebanon and invited them and initiated a campaign where lebanese trainers together with government officials were traveling across the country and teaching what kind of islam people should believe in. of course it backfired soon and from january 2012 until august of 2013th we saw almost weekly demonstrations in the main capital. the main point here was like i

said tell the muslims according to whatever they mean by that word. and then another third thing of course which has been both helpful but also problematic and that his legislation that has been passed by almost all the countries in east africa and the horn. it has been proven helpful to enabling the government to arrest and prosecute people that have an engaged in violent activities but another issue is that terrorism or terror attacks are defined. broadly in the sense that they include a clause of incitement to terrorism and they can prosecute people who incite terrorism. what does that mean? it's another problem, another issue.

some of the dilemmas here on the responses by local government. first of all there's an obvious connection, a complicated one though between what we can call exclusivist rhetoric or hateful speech and violent activities. we have seen this here in this country. we have seen it in europe where some politicians without mentioning names have been engaged and anti-immigration rhetoric and muslim rhetoric and what we have seen is an increase in attacks on muslims both in the u.s. and in europe. now obviously we cannot arrest of those politicians and prosecute them because they don't tell people that we should go up and beat up muslims but this is what happens often in east africa or elsewhere in east africa is that the people who

are not necessarily talking about say directly talking about you should go out and blow yourself up are being arrested. and i have a friend personally who was sentenced to 22 years in prison and i argue that he actually was advocating for secular principle that this is the dilemma hero for okay you have hateful speech and nobody wants to have exclusivist rhetoric that people are engaging in and it doesn't necessarily mean that this will be translated into violent activities. extremely complicated. how do you draw the line here between prosecution and then, and not. when do you say this is

something we cannot really put in the category of leading to violence and the dilemma we have is it would cost money to local governments to buy it in the sense that people that would not be automatically linked to violent attacks are being targeted and that's has a counterproductive effect of creating more discontent among muslim communities. and the same thing with the anti-terror laws. not only is the clause of incitement for terrorism problematic and even most -- more so how local governments are to liberally using them to not only to indict and prosecute muslims but any kind of unwanted

opposition including journalists and so on nbc this happening. it kind of becomes very convenient down on unwanted opposition. and also the dilemma is that different sectors of the security apparatus become very convenient and very effective tools for the government to secure power or to liberally use by governments in doing so. the atv p. q. is a very good example. it was very closely connected to the kenyan government. another problem is many of those areas such turso the military and the police are going very far in the use of violence. they are often very corrupt and

this again of course creates a dilemma when we talk about interventions or the hand that slaps the hand that increases image problems for the local government. on the one hand you have your police going out indiscriminately targeting people without having any space of law and order and you are supposed to go out and talk to the same people who are being targeted i your own police. so this is a major dilemma that does not only affect local governments but also a fax the u.s. who have been very active in training the anti-terror police unit in kenya together with the eu and of course the

western support for security sectors and countries like ethiopia and kenya and so one is something that all muslims know about in the u.s. and the west is behind those so they directly hold western government accountable so again i really appreciate the undersecretaries comments on the new approach but believe me there is a serious image problem in whatever western government and local government are doing because of the history of such interventions. i think if i could, the secretary's not here but to give recommendations is that i think a country like the u.s. has to put clear conditions on its support to the security center. they have to be more diligent in terms of securing that the

police and the military and so one are at the end accordance with the law and they need to be more diligent in dealing with issues of corruption and bad management of these forces. if we don't do that whatever we want to do the more soft side becomes basically meaningless. i also think that when we talk about the soft interventions it needs to be done in very close kwok were he and with local communities and the local government. the undersecretary expressed the problem and the difficulties in addressing good local partners. that is problematic. too often we see the so-called official body such as the supreme council and kenya, and tanzania are very much co-opted

by the various governments hands have lost much of the credibility we have in the eyes of the government. i think we need to stop talking about good muslim and bought -- bad muslims. we need to moderate the mainstream and then you have the extremist to continue here and i think we can easily find very conservative scholars of islam, very conservative muslim's that we would disagree with but who would not necessarily be people who would commit violence. we have to see things in a broader perspective and a very more nuanced manner and working with local governments, i think we need to be aware that there are deeper and broader structural political questions that also need to be addressed for sample the question of

autonomy. the grievances from the local coastal muslim population in kenya. you cannot just talk about seeing it as a separate thing. you also have to be willing to address and press local governments to deal with those in more deeper questions. the undersecretary question whether one needs more fine grained knowledge about what is going on. yes, we do. we definitely need more fine grained knowledge. these are incredibly complicated issues and i think also what we also need is more knowledge about the continuous analysis of the approaches, what works and what does not work. i think listening to the new strategies that have been

launched i think this is a great opportunity and i think the state department should take advantage of starting to have continuous valuations and studies of their own approaches that we can actually learn what is working and what is not working. i think i'll stop there. >> thank you so much. happy to take some questions here. yes, sir. >> actually i have two questions in terms of making an off-ramp are kind of act two fighters and people in al-shabaab or boko haram in different groups like that water summit initiatives that work in greater africa? i worked in the middle east and

we had literally no success with the different initiatives to get people who run al-nusra and different groups there kind of are integrated back into society that's my first question also did you get a lot of pushback in terms of standardizing imam's and things like that in some african countries and has there have been pushback in greater arabia? >> standardizing them in the countries that tried to standardize a particular strand? yes, yes. >> we want our sanctioned imams giving lectures because part of the problem is we have world peopled to go out and whip up people into a firestorm and then they go out in commit terror acts of a say we are going to standardize that is how does that work in africa and some of the african country's? >> i don't know how widely spread it is.

i know in nazir for example they will welcome a moms including so office to imams but they make a commitment not to preach violence in their registered and their kind is added by kind of a counsel to some extent. one of the things that dr. sarah sewell mentioned, morocco and going in and teaching how to teach and the head of the new share islamic council, the problem with that is they are preaching a particular line knocked with the way they behave and we have imams who are trained all over the place egypt and saudi morocco, wherever and so we don't want to say okay this is the right way and that is the wrong way. but can we start thinking about it?

can we start thinking about a republican imam? what are the basic principles when you engage with their followers not the doctrinal principles but how is it that you engage? but i think that kind of registering and monitoring of course it can run into all kinds of problems i think and that was the backlash in ethiopia as well. >> we have seen some backlash as jennifer mentioned in ethiopia with the promotion of allah bosch and as kerry mentioned it led to large-scale protests for a year and a half. unfortunately the european government shut down all the protests and arrested the leaders of that protest community and has frightened most of those people who were opponents of that program into quiet submission. there continues to be quiet disagreement and pushback

against that. we do see in my presentation can you continues in nigeria efforts to create these registration laws and included in these registration laws is certifying clerics, muslim and christian clerics and who does the certification and how do you certify? do you certified a stone interpretation theology? there are a lot of questions which are bought out and there isn't a lot of interaction and dialogue with the community about how these laws are being put forward and implemented and because of that right now they have been pushed aside for a later date, and particular in kenya they been pushed aside and didn't bashar we will see it come up again relatively soon. but these are dialogs that are ongoing and we hear from the muslim community there is a real

strong effort either senior leadership there through the registration system and the education system a real understanding and cognizance that there is a degree of violent extremism within that community and i want to bring it back in and the questions are how do you do that and how do you make a productive? >> first question what is the process of deradicalization and how do we turn people from -- we don't know much about what has been going on. what i do know is the government is offering amnesty towards fighters but i'm not aware that they have any program for deradicalization.

it's more like put down your guns and we will be okay. there are a lot of reasons why people join these movements. it's very difficult to have one program. some join for the money and others for other reasons but the question of course is there is soma -- so many issues at stake here that need to be addressed that is not only by deradicalization but to address the broader structural question as well. >> i quickly wanted to echo what terje said about having a new wants to position about why people join these groups because if you don't have that don't have the that new one's understanding of the various causes of economic and ideological, there is some sort of connection with the community. you are not really going to

develop a successful program to derail honesty of a program that targets a specific reason why somebody joined in the first place. i didn't see a country develop develop a new wants to off-ramp as you call it. >> they were thinking post-traumatic stress for some of the women who had been returned some of who have been indoctrinated and some not. it's not really a political popular or palatable program to take on when these are perpetrators as well as in many cases victims. the whole transitional justice of that and what the communities revealed that is a very tricky thing. >> you have to think of it as a ddr approach. not just to counter opposition off-ramp. it's also not fully thought out.

you think about najir where you have very local boko haram fighters women are kidnapped and pedal -- people who work may not have wanted to join okafor from forces there. yes sir and i think i will have to cut you off again, i'm sorry. >> my name is nathan and i'm with the 21st century initiative. my question is in these interfaith dialogues are there any conversations about conversion and how to do conversion without inciting violence? i think inversion is a very important part of christian and muslim faith traditions and something that is westerners when we show up and talk about dialogue we just don't touch as far as i can see. >> well i imagine it's a pretty sensitive thing in the

interreligious dialogue. the one thing i heard about religion and this goes to some of the more, the newer groups that are coming on board and challenging traditional hierarchies whether they are muslim or they are christian. there is a lot of resentment against the proselytizing. the catholic church in senegal which is 95% muslim country for years, the first president was catholic for 40 years they are most concerned not about reformist muslims but about pentecostals coming in the very loud proselytizing parties in language that kind of starts the rhetoric. the senegalese associate them with us because they are christian but it's also beginning to kind if terror rift within the social fabric. so that's just a whole

fascinating angle to look at but not one that i can say that i have looked at. >> i can speak to that a little bit in nigeria and terje in particular and the use of when i was talking about hate speech, part of it is the other face because the other one is considered violence but also an effort to convert people into your faith so it's one of the reasons they talk about the law looking at hate speech and evangelical icing protection in a public space, reduction of the use of loudspeakers you know driving your car around, christians driving the car round of the muslim area.

these are tantalizing efforts which create tension so you have the state-level initiatives that i know about and i'm not really familiar with interfaith efforts that really tackle this strongly. >> the one thing all of this is it's one layer of multiple. >> microphone. >> one layer of multiple different things going on. and the story i always tell i was talking about conflict and clashes in the middle of nigeria with the kurdish versus sedentary farmers versus settlers versus indigenous. they have for muslim christian element in it but i was trying on the tv interview to try to explain it in a very nuanced way. when i eventually saw what they put up they were speaking in a very nuanced way about them

behind the plus the map is a muslim on the top, christian on the bottom and the big boom sign in the middle sothere is a lot of simplification of many different grievances whether they are nationalist, political, the settlers indigents thing is huge, the farmers and herders. unfortunately once they take on that religious overtones and undertones they become very hard to put back in the bottle and i think it's really important not to conflate religion and extremism and violence with those many other issues and really try to tackle what is at the very core of it which often is not ideology at all. i will give you one last moment and one last word if you would like to wrap it up. or have you said your piece for

the day? >> i can try to think of something. think it's very important to underline when we talk about this cve which i also don't like really this acronym is that we shouldn't think that it's something that we need to bring to africa. i think it's very important to underline that cve at two goodies are going on daily. by fathers and mothers and community leaders in local communities, the fact that we don't see religious violence as the dominating feature of islam shows that there are at this programs going on on the grassroots and i think if we are to do something meaningful as outside actors we need to have

fine-grained knowledge about these factors and accuracy in co-op or in with them in a very meaningful manner instead of going through really going through more established bodies that often lack the necessary credibility among the grassroots populations. >> thank you. >> thank you for joining us and staying with us to the bitter and as i was saying. we hope you will join us down the line for future sessions that come out of the roundtable. we are almost certain to have terry back to washington to talk more about his work on the horn