so we have to get a show out of there. we call and put our guests on the show through the phone and the show continues. i would say the logistical problems exist but never stop us from doing the show. >> host: if you put up here on your facebook page let's discuss isl islamic extremism what kind of response would you get to that? >> guest: we actually have talked about this from different angles in posts. we did ask people who are very much angry at the terrorist groups who are and some are defending islam. many of the members try to explain how daish and other terrorist groups are using islam

to commit their crimes and how they are negatively affecting the image of muslims around the world. sometimes we get people who are sympathetic to the terrorist needs and see our audience coming in and trying to reason with the sympathizers and show them how wrong they are preaching and what they were preaching is wrong and you know, examples of how terrorism is negative. >> you have been watching the "the communicators" on c-span. if you would like to see previous programs go to c-span.org. with congress in summer recess, we are bringing you booktv in prime time. coming up, we will look at books about infrastructure and transportation.

we will hear from harvard professor, rosabeth moss kanter, on her book "move: putting america's infrastructure back in the lead". then discussion from the los angeles times festival of books on infrastructure, engineering and science. later, a duke civil engineering professor talks about the u.s. system of roads and highways in his book "the road taken" on saturday, booktv is live at the mississippi book festival for the second literary lawn party at the capitol in jackson. conversation on civil rights, education policy, mississippi history and the 2016 presidential election.

john meechm is a notable speaker who writes biographies on presidents and former senate majority leader trent long discussing his book "crisis point" regarding political polarization. go to booktv.org for the complete schedule. >> next, rosabeth moss kanter, talks about "move: putting america's infrastructure back in the lead". she discusses some of the successful transportation systems around the world. she was interviewed by former transportation secretary rodney slater. >> professor canton, welcome. >> thank you, professor slater. >> host: i am looking forward to giving the audience the appreciate she had. we are looking forward to following the story line.

what i found interesting is you start out in the preface taking about leadership. now were you thinking about a book on leadership when you started? how did you get to that? >> guest: leadership is one of my big topics in preoccupation and that was what i was going to do. but i kept getting struck by this issue of infrastructure literally. not only the facts and figures about what was happening in america and the sad state of much of our infrastructure, the need for innovation and change, but i was also tripping on potholes like everybody. i was stuck on traffic. i was hearing sad stories of inner city people who couldn't get to jobs or had to make two or three buses and a subway to get to school. so that plus going abroad and writing a mag love train in shanghai where we went to

another city, first of all subway connections to the train, the train was so fast we went to another city in 20 minutes, that otherwise took an hour and a half by bus. so all of those things together made me fell this is a really important issue -- feel -- and i had been talking to you. you were such a help in this whole project. i had been talking to you about the need for a new vision for america because you had been putting forth a vision on just at the end of the clinton administration when you were leaving office and unfortunately the world changed in the 2000s. we had a lot of defense spending. we had a lot of other preoccupation and then a financial crisis. so we haven't made the kinds of investments we need to make. so i thought this is so important to the future of the country and i am part of the u.s. competitiveness project at harvard business school.

we really care about making sure that america is strong and that also the american economy and quality of life are as excellent as they could possibly be and that we are once again leaders in the world. so i put aside what i thought was my leadership book to write this. and then it was really interesting that i ended up concluding it is all about leadership. i mean there are many other details but it is all about leadership. and that the leadership for innovation, collaboration, big vision, is as important as the engineering. this isn't a technical issue. we could do this. we have the technical skills in america. in fact, in technology, we lead the word world. we are just not always applying our own strength. leaders need to step up to this. i started out saying the sorry

state of our in -- infrastructure. but there are reasons for hope and we see great projects and with enough public agitation and discussion which you have been so active and involved in thep we could get leaders to really step up. that is why i wrote a book. so "move" not only suggests as a title not only suggests it is a book about transportation-infrastructure but it also suggests what we have to do in america which is we have to move. we have to get moving. >> host: we do. we have to lead again. the subtitle of the book actually talks about putting america back in the leadership position when it comes to infrastructure investment. let me just say this, i want us to come back to the issue of leadership because you have a lot to say about that as far as going forward. let's just unpack it a little bit.

you do something very interesting in that you talk about transportation as more than concrete asphalt and steel. you talk about it as a family concern, as a business concern. let's do that a little bit but let me ask you about allison, natalie, and jacob and how you actually dedicate the book to them and then you really tell us to think about it from their perspective meaning infrastructure investment and its importance. >> guest: thank you, allison, madison and jacob. they are three lovely children and we need to think about this issue not only for business and the economy but also for the children who are growing up now and i have had the privilege of reading books to those children including some of their favorites and my favorites which

i think are really great metaphors for what we need to do. i know we will get to the real industry and policy stuff but i want to signal this is a family-friendly issue. a high proportion of budgets for an average family of four is spent on transportation. it is a big deal. but allison, natalie, and jacob like books like dr. sues, oh the places you will go, very inspirational. in the middle of that book, as i was reading it, i was startled to see that the characters bopping around and then gets to a place in the middle called the waiting place. waiting for the trains to go, for the bus to come, the planes to go. it was all about transportation. and so the rest of the book says you have to get out of the waiting place and that it is

inspirational for kids. you can do it. we have to do it for them now. the other someone the little engi engine that could. >> host: that is my favorite. >> guest: that is truly a metaphor for america. i cannot imagine that book being written in other places. the little engine was the one that stepped in to carry toys for kids when all the big engines were too busy, too important, the establishment wasn't listening. to me that is a signal we also have to count on the little engines -- entrepreneurs, community people -- to push congress and do some of the work. so that was why i started the book dedicated to them. but it is their future we are really talking about. >> guest: and you know, it is interesting.

you mention the congress and the president. we can get into the policy a little bit. i know yesterday you were part of the kickoff of infrastructure week with the vice president and secretary fox. as we get to the end of the month where congress is once again extended the transportation bill, this time for the 32nd time. if they extend it again it will be 33 times they extended it a month or two or six months or whatever. and the clarion call was we need a long-term plan for infrastructure investment. do you think that is important as we think about moving america back into the leadership post? >> we definitely need long-term. i said we will count on the small engines. the small engines will produce many innovations that will help. but we need the big engines and long-term funding.

when funding is subject to short-term fixes then nobody can plan. you cannot really plan to upgrade. maybe you can patch some of the potholes on the road. but you cannot plan projects that reinvent it. you know, for allison, jacob and natalie it is the short term but this is a short term pain issue for many of us because of the productive time we lose stuck in traffic. the first responders who can not get places quickly enough because they cannot move on the road. long-term funding would reduce some of the political uncertainty and attract more investors. that would be helpful to the public sector. if we had more private sector investors it would not all have to come out of public money. but they won't necessarily

invest if they think it is the public side that will run out immediately and there is no public will. they are looking for long-term commitments. this is u.s. private equitty which is looking at infrastructure and sovereign wealth funds. there is money out there we would like to invest. but it is not politics. it is the uncertainty when it is short-term fixes. it is not something we want to authorize year by year. i feel the same way about air traffic control. yeah, aviation. when that subject, the congressional budget cycles, they can't also make investments long term just intellectual investments in new technology that is experimental because they might start something and then it is cut off. >> host: it is interesting. you mention the issue of cost

and i thought immediately about how you started off the book saying stuck on the way to the future. that is the first chapter. this first paragraph, and i will not read it all but a couple sentences are worth reading for sure. the average american commuter waste a total of 38 hours in traffic a year. this is average. this amounts to 5.5 billion hours of loss u.s. productivity annually. those are staggering figures. so you are saying we all pay a cost when the system is not working effectively. >> guest: we do. and that is just commuters to work. what about people trying to buy groceries or health care appointments or trying to go to school?

school buses get stuck in school. but high school students are using the public system often. this really is a huge cost. the health care cost because them being stuck in traffic means a lot of idling cars, burning fuel unnecessarily, and pollution from those idling cars -- there was a study in brooklyn saying 45% of all air pollution is caused by idling cars or driving around to find parking once in the city. so, we have adjusted to some of that. although people complain. we should complain. there is a way in which the human behind will not realize that there is something they can do about it and we will just normalize it. okay. that is normal. >> host: the new normal. >> guest: yeah, let's just build an extra hour into the commute. leave early, some home late, don't see the family.

there are so many costs and consequences. so we have to solve. that is an immediate problem that requires long-term investment. if all we did was repair the roads or repair the train tracks, which really need it, we still wouldn't be heading for the future. we are growing in population and need to do something. >> host: right. right. you know in that paragraph i was reading you said we lose about 121 billion dollars in say cost for fuel and loss time and just congestion annually. that is over 70 billion for people just stuck in traffic. what about the person who said, okay, put in a tape or disk and listen to a book on tape? i mean, you know? >> guest: well, as i said we are very good at making sense of something or making it seem

normal and working around it. but you could listen to that book on tape in your office or at home with the kids. we were not meant to live in our cars. but even if we were, even if we were, because cars and auto companies might like to have people -- the cars became -- guest >> host: henry ford helped build a middle class. >> guest: and the cup holder was one of the biggest innovations. cars have become dining rooms for many people but we don't want them to become living room. it is also the fuel, the time, the frustration and what about bad weather? we had really severe weather and there was weather and there was a time, i think it was in 2014 in atlanta where cars couldn't

move. for 20 hours people were stuck in their cars. that is really scary because aside from cramped space, the heat. people could die. these are dire consequences. we don't have to accept this. there are solutions. many of them are already in place in some parts of the country. >> host: you know, it is interesting you say we don't have to accept it. we have never really accepted the normal. this is a country that has always thought that tomorrow could be better than today. you mentioned the intercontinental roadway and the interstate system. it isn't like we haven't dreamed and produced big in the past. what do you think of this moment now? this is going back to the

question of leadership. but what are your thoughts there? you touch on many of these in the book? >> guest: in the history of rail, you have to look at the transcontinental railroad and many people point to that as the glorious past and why it can't be like that today. but when i dug in the past, it wasn't so glorious because it took decades of conversation and no one did it until lincoln forced it through during the civil war. there were a lot of compromises that had to be made. it didn't work perfectly. the tracks were laid from the east coast to the west coast and didn't meet in the middle so that took extra money to fix it. and there were tales of corruption and that is how jp

morgan and rockefeller made fortunes and started monopolies but we could envision that because we were envisioning the growth of america from coast to coast. and the railroad connected it and made it possible for farmers to ship products east to get goods coming back west. it made it possible for settlements to spring up. you know that and we know that well. every time you put in a transit stop you get economic growth. people build around that. we did it then but it has less ns from today. it take take a leader. we have hurt big interstate highways that are really big

like the transcontinental railroad it had a defense rational. it was 41,000 miles of highways and a huge price tag. it opened up all kinds of opportunities and it helped -- >> host: it helped every state. >> guest: it helped the american economy after the war, the helped settlements because the suburbs were already there but they could grow because people could live in the idealic green suburb and get to work in cities. cities were abandoned at that time. we can get back to that later. but this defense rational we have had for all big projects including the sputnik space race and the cold war and those investments on defense are sparing. president eisenhower who

wanteded the interstate highways said we could move troops and evacuate cities. in hurricane katrina it was clear you could not evacuate cities by everybody piling into cars and using the interstate. it doesn't happen. while they were great rationals at the time i say we are stuck in the past. we haven't had big enough visions since the 1950's maybe the early 1960's about the role that these projects helped play in our future. we have beautiful infrastructure developments. there is a beautiful bridge in boston. it is a signature and like a piece of sculpture people admire. the golden gate bridge is another beautiful work of art

but they are not a vision for what we need to connect people and move them across the bridges. it is time for a really big new vision that takes into account for 21st century. that is what you are trying to do in your vision 2000. >> yes, it is. you mentioned that earlier and i wanted to come back to it. but one thought before we leave here and i think it is very interesting that really fdr actually during his administration thought of this national system of roads and you are right. it really took a few years of gestation if you will but the emphasis on defense during the eisenhower years to move it forward. i think the question is is there a way for the issue of competitiveness and our need to be competitive globely might that replace what has been the driver of defense and security to some degree?

>> guest: i think that is a rational that resonates with businesses. we could sell it a littleal bit to the american public, but i am not sure by itself it is enough to sell the public. people know that china is investing. but it is remote to say we want to be number one. my thought is, and what i am saying in this book is want to see to the people who are elected leaders. i feel many of us could be leaders if we are holding office or not.

i am trying to be a thought leader. what i am trying to say is we need a vision about mobility. mobility is so essential. you talk about transportation as a circulartory system of the nation. we have to be able to move goods, ourselves, good where we want to go. other countries are moving faster. we can use it metaphorically to talk about catching up or getting into the lead as we compete with other countries. but we have to continue to be the land of opportunity. i say we have gone from the land of opportunity to being the state of malaise. we have to get that back. this is all about building the middle class, restoring the middle class and reducing inequality. one of the things that keep people poor is they cannot get to jobs. we have to make things affordable and accessible to people.

i think if we wrap mobility and competitiveness together we have a shot. i think we should be starting the conversation and figure out a good way to talk about it because it was all national defense. the interstate highways were, when i looked at the history, they were never called the national defense highway act but everybody referred to them that way and everybody new sputnik was about beating russia but the space race by itself was inspiring to people. astronauts and individuals. >> host: mad science and all of those sorts of discoveries. >> guest: and again, this picture of people actually landing on the moon. but we don't -- >> host: that was powerful. >> guest: if we don't arouse people's imagination about the future and this is such an exciting area to excite imagination.

we have entrepreneurs dreaming up all kinds of things and it is inspiring. >> host: it is. you mentioned china and japan. as you know, china is promoting its one belt, one road initiative where they are trying to sort of bring up to date the old silk road and it is all about trade and all about participating in the global economy and then as you know i recently and you know about this as well but i was recently in japan and i road the bullet train. ...

>> >> and i had a colleague the bend i wasn't sure how we would get back we were on the train faster than you could get from any city in the united states be we are in a city editor is only

deviated from the schedule 32 seconds to tell that to anybody who takes amtrak in the northeast corridor. >> and the president of amtrak he knows this. he tries to get it going again end your friend michael dukakis is interesting along with the vice president. >> and guy tile a great story in the block in pennsylvania to raise the speed by only a mere 20 miles an hour but that was enough to make a lot of people abandon the cars to

commute instead that is just enough time saved so we can start doing those things then they have faith in the trains again then maybe they will see that up power and besides the idea of the northeast corridor that would take many decades but we could start now there is talk now they are building a

terminal on the northern side of this city. and the private company that is a public investment that's exciting but the plan with the vehicles comedy times do i seeing the wheels on the bus go round and round? this should spike their imagination that is why i wrote the book but i thought was interesting you started to talk about the anniversary but they

introduced a high-speed rail it was nothing but we've known this from our personal lives. we pledged off maintenance we add a beautiful shade the apartment. they would move rather than go to repaint so you hollowed out parts of cities that should be highly desirable because people

could ride bikes or block but they had deteriorated so badly. >> it is interesting the way be sometimes turn from that which is not quite as it used to be. you refer to some of the work with our time in office to introduce high speed rail but the good thing is we have seen a significant increase in the northeast corridor but we need to see that across the system to unveil a of vision both president clinton but to be very interested in at that we came forth with at vision peace the changing face of can - - because we had

been successful in passing the legislation but the recognition was with the growing economy back and the opening of borders and interface with markets around the globe and prosperity to be enjoyed and we attempted that. i and excited about secretary fox you make reference to that becomes this is great. you don't say that it has to be accepted you bring everyone into focus. talk about that. but you have a significant revelation when the presence

of transit and good infrastructure. tell us about that. >> could i comment? that was great and very important to people in the northeast corridor. but the right of ways that were purchased 100 years ago and they are aging so one the vision of the future but i believe in repair, redo and reinvented. bat be have to understand repair in is needed this is

known to people in various regions of the united states. they were great. did is hard to understand on the partisan and gridlock with the statistic only 6 percent of commuters use anything other than a car it is very car centric. >> bay have refurbished union station and chicago is on the way but that becomes a terminus of the

neighborhood around it is better because there is better access. denver has done that so there is a consensus zero lot better at of our regional level is not as though if it will be disruptive but the different parts of the community but whatever they like taxes

there was a vote several decades ago of a public transit system those four communities were against it. because they did not feel it was necessarily good for that because of the parking places. bandit took back 20 years later that houston finally got white rail. you could call that politics but they need to understand

how many stakeholders and also pushed public officials to tell the mayor to do something with o'hare airport and the runway so if we can get that support regionally and we need national standards and strategy and finding and jump-start the accelerator. and that is the year earlier question with the private

sector with every mode of transportation into the plan a big part of your vision was intermodal. >> people don't care as long as they can get there. end of entrepreneurs would get excited and is due limited. the city is that try to fix the problem political and political illustrations so

why and mayor emanuel bill is the be untangling the everybody has been stabbed a train crossing. >> host: i thought you were going baird. >> there are unnecessary deaths in america. they think they can beat the train, i don't want to talk about depressing but beside suicide there are fatalities that unnecessary.

but one-quarter of all rail traffic goes through chicago and it is an old system when the u.s. did not have a system of separate railroads pdf -- were ever they wanted and which the commuter trains they have prior day's commuter passenger the light rail fan of the freight. but that could tighten up traffic 20 minutes. >> this is what you're talking about you have a segment called slowest 6 miles of america.

is saved retrain going from los angeles to chicago to take 24 hours and when there is a problem but the delay of cargo could delay for months. >> data so we don't fully appreciate. you cannot get the goods ordered or get ours out. or sell to other places in. >> america changes that but he inherits that in the late 90's.

bonds of chicago underpasses the and to straighten this out a lot of them have been completed but i was there watching a tough one may be more there is a lot of innovative things chicago would have lost the plant the cars go out by rail or by truck back now bridges

and read did this borne 14 weekends, 14 different bridges they would do entire bridge over a weekend. but they had that there would be a real green space will be a more vibrant neighborhood and other factories there. it is an impressive project budgeted is taken time. >> host: that is the big fear.

>> guest: that is one that is very promising. batboy we ought to get rid of everyplace in america be. it will take a long time. >> that was a big issue with the did ministrations during my years at the department. >> for looking at the bridges as the innovation that is if we had the will we could make that a goal. >> host: i want you to go into the nether things of innovative financing in the infrastructure fund. >> infrastructure is of the list and sometimes when dave

make speeches they go on to something else so it is exciting so the issue of long third term funds he created an infrastructure bank and has not gone anywhere in congress other countries haven't restructured banks getting

the money. bayer not all using them and bringing the two things that i really love you can call that incremental that is bus rapid transit want -- ticket data few seconds here or there but it adds up and it is essentially dedicated and doesn't count but the platform means be first of

all people can wait on the up platform and board and can go a little faster with implications across the whole line this is one that we learned. the first one. >> uh mayor stood speaking at harvard and he made a green city before it was fashionable i was in stable watching so it is good

weekend be visionaries but that is something chicago plant because they'd think comprehend seven not only try to help the buses go faster but bite scorer pedestrians to modernize the whole thing and also fixating above water pipes and they have aging water pipes be more than 100 years old plan and that technology was going to sell most old pipes and they were used for

fiber-optic speed you can do everything. one of the cool things is by sharing. it has its political moments it is relieved be used. -- really being used to think sometimes when you take the bus that people where quebec all blackwater they thinking? but i will tell you that is serious because we have to work on that be coz we have a car culture. but the millennial still not love them so much did used to be every time you get together with the guys would

talk about their cars now they talk about the smart phone. beijing not own cars or driver's license at the same rate. but i will say that we are car centric have a culture of bikes so chicago put in in traffic lights for the bikes so they would note to stop sometimes it is the bikers fault but cars have to know do not cut off the bike and it takes time to develop that culture when

the amsterdam leads the world with the bike sharing sharing, it's was a disaster of first. it took a little while for people to learn i feel we are off the cusp of change. called be think about transportation infrastructure and the technology. and focus on that. >> talk about smart roads meet the smart phone you were all over that with your comments but me and your

harvard business hat to. talk about that. you mentioned o'neill's they are chain chain of way we see things been the way we live going forward that is very exciting. >> before the smart phone and it wasn't be visible to the consumer yet but it did is not that old be i found is from 2007.

we and rise in wireless networks peabody and the wireless business is growing dramatically but general motors pointed out the cellphone was originally preferred to as the car phone pdf. i remember having a very clunky car fell but the auto industry did not jump on that. but now i think they are jumping because everybody is in the transportation business even googleplex. will they build a car? apple doesn't make the i

felt they make the software. is colliding with nearly every industry. >> so we dealt no and the roads are getting smarter to permit things like electronic and dynamic tolling that will change the price depending on congestion. so people make a decision do i pay more to go at this hour? and that is hard to talk about. with the former mayor of indianapolis we cannot talk about congestion pricing to put together to words the they don't like but it is

very handy we still don't have a national system so i can use igo from boston to new york city we need a national system there it is happening faster than we can catch up but the city of boston created if working with the entrepreneurs to be connected by the smart phone it can detect potholes' from the vibrations.

but that is how you get into that car remotely be when it uber or other similar services where use of men on demand or where you get information and exactly where fidel will take a bunch of people on a comment blueprint on a walk but of how to be there. this will revolutionize of technology is exciting. >> host: often said that

possibly the most important thing to happen during our clinton did ministration bay not be that passage of record level of assessment and it was through executive order me through the civilian use been the most sophisticated form and i can read the congestion maps developed back and all of that is coming into play. it was that executive order that took a military defense apparatus and apply to the

business community. >> that is a cute difference >> did was open to public use. batboy understood because of uber rebuilt track your delivery with app i say that i track my fedex and ups all the time. we can do that. but now they see that up possibilities be.

and they were coming from defenseman i know how much defense benefit that applies that to everyday experience so it gives greater enjoyment and fulfillment and transparency. we have to continue in research and development. that is mine. i find is conversation fascinating as recently reading