the car phone. she is right in the autumn industry missed that they did not jump on that. but they did not jump on that but now they're jumping because everybody is in the transportation business we transport data more than people. and will kugel actually build a car? it doesn't make the i found it makes the software. that collides with nearly every industry and to get a collaboration. >> amazon or face but -- based book and the roads are

getting smarter b'rith sensors and electronic and dynamic tolling. depending on the congestion but people may create decision to igo at this hour? it is hard to talk about with the mayor of indianapolis began talked-about congestion pricing because that puts together the words they don't like to hear but we now have transponders in cars sonorities states and started cooperating so we

need a national system but we can sense of popples that this city works with the entrepreneurs if it is then your carpet or your connected it is to test the epo polls the carlow report that for you. i hope they're not smarter with and we are bad is the future. sharing cars was a big idea dealing with global but they work it out with this technology and how you get

in remotely like other similar services is more where you summon on demand or get information exactly where they will take people on a common route and it will tell you where to be there. if this will revolutionize. it is exciting. >> just a couple of things that we have often said possibly the most important thing to happen during our term and office with the clintons with us major pieces of legislation but it was through the executive

order that president clinton allowed for the civilian use in its most sophisticated form and that is one in hand the capability of fedex icahn has that at the certain time because they know how to get there, how much time it will take wirth the congestion maps, all of that comes into play and that executive order bad took a defense type apparatus but to apply a to the business community. >> that made a huge difference and many the internet was defended the it

opened to public use. that there needs to be some regulation banning it is striking there are now these little experiments to track your delivery for you i track my fedex packages all the time. we have then doing this were to see the up possibilities. no reason why we can. so if we don't spend research and development the same way. so for the microwave oven.

>> so with the research institution to give us the benefit of that intellectual muscle to applies that creation to our everyday experience for greater enshrinement and fulfillment and transparency. we have to continue to invest in research and development. >> i find this conversation fascinating i believe they will street journal article but there is the amount of the state of california with all of the locations be. then the locations of the automotive facilities.

bay were ball along the same track. moving from the midwest in the south. placing it did in the silicon valley area as well. >> this is a big change. one of the things that killed kodak is that it stayed dash rochester but all the work was digital. i did be mentioned gm so i should mention the head of ford and he believes in connection.

indecently in executives are no longer in the methyl vending business but now in the mobility business. that is opportunity and is a big part of our future and is dependent upon wireless networks and other devices you what to be where the innovators are. it is a big change. so i hope pound -- we can get the national will to have the conversation

from los angeles. >> welcome to this panel of the >> day las angeles festival love books. i write for the nation magazine and also holst the week the puck past. you have been here before no personal recordings you can

watch us on c-span2 win this is over. we will have questions thatt the us and with the books lining after birds -- after words to authors arec, professionals ahead has written 14 and brian has written more than 40. w so let's start with jonathan this is his first. [applause]jonath he started writing at dartmouth in the cook.

his first book is named rest nominated for the l.a. times book prizes inside ian's. please welcome him to the festival of books.ok [applause] f >> so what is dave biggera threat to the united states military? isis' or rust? >> there is a guy in the pentagon he would like you to throw that questionnaire him as the highest rate must offical and fighting a fight for about 10 years been making friends on the hill with a lot of politicians and among the admirals' in the navy to say we can't

keep going the way we your going to lose the ships to the rust. he would say clearly it is rust. i tried to stay away like have but i did write it is greater than all other natural disasters combined in people have said i don't get it. i say think about it the most abundant elementrial a attacks are most important material all the time everywhere. iss is not that civic there is a shipyard in northern california full love rustingng vessels? to make have not seen it in a while leaving there slowly getting back her mid of that. not as we go to get rusty

ships. theirselves rusty they are polluting the day - - the day and causing a problem for california they were supposed to go to texas but we kept them because we had to it is an ugly e political scenario. >> let's talk about t6 180 billion beverage cans are manufactured every year?r? >> in each one needs to be perfect? >> i went to t6 school and almost got kicked out for asking too many questionsat thet because what they do to keep 86 from rusting make some people uncomfortable because

they are in the current is raptors. -- and no grand destructors because nobody looks at the can when they rest they explode and the tab card can get you in the eye as blinded people were severed tendons there are losses its citizens agreed and basically achaean that we recycle. because i referred to it as the corrosion miracle but every r&b there is all hot

market in energy drinks but if you sell them in a cool knu go to making and manufacture and said a one to put my stuff in your can they will say sentence a sample if it is too corrosive they will say it is battery acid been any change the formula that is one that is seven times with all but energy drinks. drink up laugh off. >> tell me more about t6 school speed dash they big in a ary. people want to put their supper in the can so the of ball corporation down the road used to invite people

but now they don't banks to me. [laughter] to beverage can and food can school i told them to lie was they said don't, but then a step and sent me thee e-mail and said here is what to wear and lunch is included so they familiarize people in the beverage industry and why they spend one dime per can so that was how would those i did not get the diploma they werepy not happy with me but on the day my book came out the chief croatian guy came then i got the diploma.

>> your book about rust is yoe rust been fighters but you point out the disproportionate number have mustaches? knu explain this? for anything else because a group plaques. >> >> some things are not worth fighting berger one to be clear is a great position to take better:been shaving everyday to say you have a strange moustache obsession maybe i do that two-thirds have mustaches.s -- hey,

talk to people who do the stem promotion is 98 percent male. [laugh pdf moving along. a pulitzer prize-winning journalist including our dirty love affair with trashed . appearing in the wall street journal, "the new york times" and his new book isgn called the door to door the mysterious world of transportation the publication date is two days from now baird is of blurb

from the leading organization fighting planet change. so please welcome back edward. [applause] you open your book with that memorable day and how many remember carmageddon?ca the day they closed the 405 for about 53 hours.firs the first time since it opened the prediction was total disaster stay at home. did not go out. it was supposed to fix traffic ended did 53 hours.

it would improve traffic and pollution throughout southern california it was a great success. if you build then they will vacuum one year after it took several minutes longer from before when we milked - - built the past. there was a myth it would get better but it has never worked but yet we are trapped in the ribbon cutting love of big infrastructure. what in to do what carmageddon did when it was close to

change their behavior. >> agreed solution and amazon brings to my house with ups isn't that the solution and for everyone? >> we have a diabetic cat with special cat food. i clicked on it and it arrived in nine hours.ible f that that would drown as. but on any given day dave haved to million packages.

in the end of the van has 120 packages goes to warm place no 120 places the orders of magnitude to move the same amount. and to have that convenience and that absolute hatred to have trucks on the road delivering stuff with us 710 freeway in the dublin to pay for that situation. there is another type ofg

carmageddon that they are hurtling towards the digital economy. >> and to accumulate so much stuff.or ide and a little man habits to go in pots and pans issues in this horrifying. simic there seems to have some statistics that i question the use save the morning cup of coffee

covered 30,000 miles? this bothers me because the circumference of the year of is 25,000 miles so how could that be from colombia to los angeles, assuming we all drink colombian coffee simic maybe you should reconsider be. >> what i was picking apart were those been spent if you look at the south american sources that they were the sixth horse seventh largest exporter. in every year just talking with the beans.d, of

effused talk about backup of copy your clutch moon dash clutching the transportation of milk and water and sugar end packaging with the transportation footprint. >> i did not count the cup of the milk and sugar and the machinery. >> so you have me on coffee but what about the smart phone? 165,000 miles? i repeat this circumferences only 25,000 sonata's the smart phone take 165,000 greg. >> was a boy with my model but i believe they are similar the ontario airport on the tarmac everyday there

are pilots of plain boxes under 24-hour guard with constant video surveillance. they will not tell you what is in a but it is the iphone everyday be out of china is stopped to refuel and conned into ontario but if you follow the assembly. >> if you just follow that little piece it goes back and forth between china and japan and then it comes toe the netherlands through this incredible procedure.

to the united states so bad then i cannot pronounce it goes to its own zone with of precious-metals it is almost impossible those raw materials is astonishing in to the moon and back in 95 percent come inform the ports of los angeles this everyday stuff not just exotic stuff has tremendous but brent from

transportation. >> but they are dreamingy ship when you get close and that it doesn't look so big. of a car carrier. it was a floating parking crunch bigger than what we part to come to the festival. and there were those containerships. on the open seas with the particulate than smog causing emissions and that

any one time 100 of the ships are docked in the ports of los angeles or greater emissions. >> are we feeling bad enough?>> io and i got to ride in the bugle car -- below car but it they swear they program to the car over the campusest oa as the slowest car of the road it is and we are end it all the time. but then i am chatting with the operators to monitor what the car is doing and

then walking across the street was a kosher -- in his own role with a full-sized laptop typing on the screen as he was crossing the street comings. out from between two parked cars. if me driving would be flying laptop and flying bird and this stopped on the time but i am convinced to eliminate 90 percent of car crashes as the major mode of transportation. >> i feel better., traine

brian was born hitting clinch trade in archaeology and anthropology and served as keeper of prehistory in northern rhodesia where he was involved in excavating a series of $1 since year-old farming villages to make it relative to students of the african nations teaching as from 1967 through 2003 professor van apology at uc santa barbara he retired since then a full-time writer and independent scholar he has written the least 40 or 50 bucks -- books most important are a

the climate change book which is within your * best seller his 2010 booko-magnon featured here at the book festival is the widely praised book and the new book is an animal shape human history called the intimate bond writing about dogs in sheep cattle camels and horses but in real life he lived with cats in fish and turtles and rabbits. supplely is welcome back. [applause]

>> we share n experience we have been on a container ship on seven cisco bay. 830 feet long in front of the ball the yachts were going around in front of them he looked at them like they are stupid enough left fre, and there is nothing i can do. nothing i can do. by far the most interesting of them -- and the most neglected -- is the donkey. the donkey is a very cool animal. it has a number of advantages. it is very well adapted to

semiarid conditions, and it can be used in deserts. and i had two extraordinary experiences doing. the first one was i discovered the work of and talked to egyptologists who have traced an ancient donkey caravan trail from the nile to the middle of the sahara, 200 miles. of it was used for centuries. and they would take these enormous caravans of donkeys. a third of the donkeys carried fodder, a third carried water in jars, and a third caroled the product -- carried the product which was semiprecious stones. believe it or not, they've not only found the track, they've found the cases of the jars, they found the skeletons of the donkeys, they found donkey poop, and they found the camps. all on the desert, preserved. these guys were the pickup trucks of the ancient world.

they were our toyotas. [laughter] and then the other one was even more fun, much more obscure. there was a very well known trade by donkeys, black donkeys, between northern iraq and a town in central turkey. and they found the archives there which are clay tablets with kind form writing. is there anyone here who can decipher kindny form? don't be shy. [laughter] i can't. anyway, i got into a correspondence with a charming gentleman. and i wrote, are there many of you? >> there were six of us. we argue, we quarrel, we drink. they were lovely. and he gave me all information. i mean, they can even reconstruct the correspondence of wives with their husbands who were -- [inaudible]

telling him to bring jewelry. they've got details of how the caravans fared, prices of donkeys which were the same at both ends. the donkeys were worth nothing, they were worked to death. and so they were anonymous pickups. but they linked the ancient world. even more so initially than the camel. >> and your book is a history book. where do you date the history of the domestication of the donkey? where does that begin? >> it began in, they think -- and a lot of this is very new research. t just beginning. it was somewhere in northeast africa where they domesticated them out of the wild african donkey. but by 3100 b.c., there were burials of four donkeys in a cemetery associated with royal burials in upper egypt. and these guys were buried with considerable ceremony.

but when they looked closely at the donkey skeletons, they found they had been overloaded and worked hard. these were draft animals. but, clearly, they were of such importance that they were buried carefully. why? because in those days, an economy in ancient egypt really the most tangible possession you had was your animals x. a thousand years later, excuse me, there were nobles who had a thousand donkeys. imagine the cost of looking after those. >> so 3100 b.c. for the domestication of the donkey -- >> actually, earlier. a thousand years earlier. >> a thousand years earlier. i had the naive idea that the wheel was the key to transportation, but this seems that i've been wrong about this. >> you are, indeed, very wrong. [laughter] actually, that is incorrect. imagine a world where the only

way of transporting everything was either on people's backs or in canoes. so that made the four-regularred four-regularred -- four-legged beast extraordinarily important. wheels came in later. he were brought in in central asia, mess -- mesopotamia. and you had to have animals that would haul those, and you didn't use the animal's back. you used them to haul carts. ox carts were the earliest. then, of course, later you get the chariot. but that's another world. >> and i also loved your chapter on the camel, another creature that didn't tow a cart, but was itself a beast of burden. >> how many of you have ridden a camel? many. [laughter] camels, what absolutely electrified me when i really got into these wasn't the camel itself, which is a remarkable

animal. i mean, it has adapted to desert. and when people put them on caravans, you led -- you found the water, and the camel took you there. but the thing that really made the camel important of all things was the saddle, the type of saddle on the back. the initial saddle was a simple one in saudi arabia on the back of the camel, at the back. but it got better when they put the camel saddle on the hump. why? because at that point you could start fighting, and you control your caravan. and then even later they developed the long distance carrying the saddle, the saharan saddle, which enabled people to cross the sahara and carry loads. and let me give you a statistic. in 1492 two-thirds of europe's gold came from west africa,

across the sahara on camel back. so this was a pretty important animal. but it's not the 405 freeway. [laughter] >> probably faster. >> nor did it rust. >> it doesn't rust, excellent point. >> so today, today our animals are either something we eat or something we keep as pets. the animals that we eat we treat horribly, the animals that are our pets, we treat like members of our own family. you also say there's a history to, a history to the household pet as the loved member of the family, and the history of cruelty to the animals that we eat. >> it is a very sering history. sering history. i was horrified by it. my wife and daughter are real, genuine animal lovers. they love rabbits. we have cats. there are on our bed my wife and

me, three cats. here is my wife, here are the cats, here is me. [laughter] and the other thing about this book, i got criticized for not doing more on cats. but cats decided they would adopt us. they're not domestic animals like dogs. .. and pick them up and recycle

them. one of the reasons the prevention for their cruelty to animals came in england was because of cruelty of animals. animals were penned up and it was horrifying. today we are in this position where we eat animals. we treat a lot of animals inhumanely and this is beginning to change and get we have all of these animals. i'm known as the bunny husband, because i don't do anything with the rabbits. i'm not particularly fond of the rabbits. the more i'm around them the more i realize this extraordinary dichotomy. >> i was horrified by your section on the pits ponies. i had never heard of them before >> i had quite a trouble with that because oddly enough there is not a great deal of

literature on them. >> what is a pitch pony? >> a pony that spent its life underground mainly in: minds, moving the call from the face to the bottom of the shop where was taken up to the surface and these animals, which actually were treated reasonably well, but when they were shot echoed old they were brought up and had trouble adjusting to the light and this was a huge huge population. i believe in england at one point there were 70000 pit ponies, but this died out by a basically world war ii and people were trying to make their lives better by abolishing them, but brought really abolished them was the invention-- invention of the electric devices you could use underground.

i and my cat's servant, but that something different. >> went to see if our panelists have any comments or questions of each other's presentations. >> my brook was born on a sailboat in san francisco and i realize we had your cruising guidebook on the boat. we work following every word. >> thank you. so nice. >> i didn't go anywhere. >> that was an interesting book to write, actually. i want all of you when you leave here to go out there and say to yourself i don't still displace. what landmarks would you use to get their because writing at-- any sort of guidance is what pilots do. you have landmarks. it could be a color of the building, whatever. to think about that when you leave, if you got lost like i

did among all this italian architecture. [laughter] >> which, it is. clec that's a nice way of putting it. >> i said that in one of the information booth and it almost died. i'm an englishman. i can get away with it. >> other panelists comments or questions back and forth? >> i'm fascinated by the donkey history request that the first domesticated transport animal? was that before oxen and horses? >> horses are much later. about the 35 bc, i think. you are talking about a huge new animal because a horse assassinates mileage and they can use vast loads.

the donkey was the earliest serial yes pack animal. you can use oxen, but they had to use water every 24 hours. donkeys linked egypt. linked afghanistan with countries further south and the mule, which, of course. is of the horse and the donkey was one of the major transport animals of the roman empire. they are very early and much neglected historically. >> i'm surprised you don't have some. >> think god i don't. we have a horse. my wife has horse, not on the property. she is now threatening a dog. fortunately my cats won't allow dogs.

clec have a question. i thought that advantage of aluminum cans was that they did not rest clec i use the word rest locally. all but three metals oxidize or can be made in some way to oxidize, but aluminum on a sailboat turns white and makes it stronger, doesn't it? >> makes it stronger until a certain point at which point it just falls apart. in a lot of metals form a protective lay her on aluminum will do that. expose it to salt water or something that can allow it to keep oxidizing and the protective layer creeps inward. it's a way of creating a protective layer kind of artificially on a metal. there are only like six ways you can protect metal from corroding , which is why the book was fun to do. there's not much you can do.

i guess i could have kept going and down different bridges in different types, but there are only-- only summary angles to take a didn't actually go into antedating electroplating, but that is one of those. >> you have a vivid picture of all the different metals on a sailboat that oxidize in different ways. >> a sailboat we mostly have stainless steel, but the parts of a sailboat-- we bought this 1978 fiberglass boat in mexico and i was actually sort of sent their as a pioneer by my buddies to investigate to see if this was about we wanted to buy, which was a terrible move because i didn't know anything about boats, but i went down there with a camera and took a lot of pictures and it looked less boat-- it was a great boat it turned out. we took her sailing in the first time we furled the mainsail it

fell off in the water in the wind vane on the stern almost fell off into the water and the tracks that hold of some of the blocks in place were rusted, i mean, every part of the boat that had to do something would not do that thing because of trust. >> last week they had a boom on one of the boats, mainsail just from the inside. >> the funny part is fighting rest in the boat did not get me to a book. it was going to the hardware stores and asking what i do about this and they told me so many different things that i said they don't know what they are talking about. back got me to a conference called they got rust because i figured the navy probably had the same issues i had and it was there i met the nation's highest rank official and i did not know that guy existed. >> well, i did take some notes

on the cocaine in, which prevents rust-- coke can which prevents rust with a lining. the line he has been linked to early puberty, obesity, miscarriage and cancer in rats. early puberty, obesity, miscarriage and cancer in rats. do you teach-- drink coke in cans? >> i don't drink coke period. >> what is your sense of the lining as a solution? >> campbell soup's recently got rid of bpa lighting is altogether because of the attention the subject is getting and i don't know this-- chemical industry is pretty funny. we sort of assume a chemical is okay until we study it and find out it's not end there is only a handful of chemicals on the list that are not okay.

bpa is entering the consciousness as a not okay chemical. i have no idea what their lining their cans with and you will have to sneak into canned school to find out. they are not going to-- they have not told me. i can't even say if it's better. it's something else we don't know about and i guess you have to be a cynic to assume it is just a chemical, i mean, unless they are drinking water. >> are there other metals that don't corrode or oxidize connect there are a handful. the coke cans with different thicknesses of the plastic on the inside to keep it from rusting and i found early on that beer is really a minimal to be putting into aluminum cans so it needs to be finished and aluminum cans and it's not acidic, but i liked it when they

told me there was made for cans in cans was made for beer. >> i think on that point we will open it to questions in the audience here please quipped to the microphone so that the audience of c-span can hear? and our policy here is if at all possible please make your question a question. >> this is for ad. i had a question about-- i know there is a lot of variables involved in this question, but if you have a general sense. if increased technology is changing and you talked about the number of miles that goes into producing something like iphone, whether the thing it replaces, what is the cost benefit analysis there in terms of energy put into that system? >> if it is a source more locally? >> right or-- a phone would replace things-- e-mail would replace paster-- paper and postage and the many other

things that technology replaces. is that utilizing things-- our natural resources better or worse? >> well, as you say there are a lot of variables and that, but one of the future visions that some futurist are talking about is the future of 3d printing technology as more and backwardness and more specialized than it is now and they aren't making pretty amazing things with that technology, but imagine the depth of shipping in general where you don't buy the good, but you buy the software, the app that makes the good and then in some local location if not in your own household for some things you actually created and this would be the return of the local manufacturing as being competitive with a global

manufacturing without all of the related carbon emissions. of course, you still have to move the overall material that you make this step with, but theoretically it could be a much smaller impact on the world and on our wallets if we did it that way, but something that transformative would also mean the end of millions of jobs. you know, truck drivers it's one of the most common occupations in america and there would be a lot of unintended consequences of that shift as well. >> over here. >> comment on 3d printing. research currently the most popular product could be printed on 3d printer is a 3d selfie. [laughter] >> thank you for that. >> jonathan, question for you. could you talk more about the impact of a rust on the military. for example, is this really a

risk of the reserve forces or is this a risk for in country combat forces as well? >> risk for nuclear weapons. i get this courteous erica slusser. he found out at the height of the cold war we were trying to make our nuclear missiles saver, so we actually put a tape-- i think it was a tape on there somewhere so that if something happened neutrons could not pass through and trigger a reaction. unfortunately, that tape rusted in place and actually if someone had hit the red button and said let's go with our nuclear volley nothing would have happened and this was with our-- i'll get the name of the missiles wrong, but it was with the most powerful nuclear weapons and i sort of bad down to eric slusser for finding that because it must have taken him a decade of work. but, the pentagon has done a lot of work on-- he uses the word

matériel a lot and they have studied rust effect on the readiness of planes and helicopters and boats and they have actually calculated by weight, which planes caused the most to repair because of rust. you can put a dollar figure like if an f-15 way so much each pound cost so much and corrosion repair and it has taken certain planes out of commission a month, a year or weeks a year and they have worked the numbers and said this is-- the guys in the navy-- navy says that a threat. aside from people who are actually you know engaging in war. it's a 20 billion-dollar a year problem to the military. dan dunn meyer-- it's like the fight of his life. she says he does this for the warrior. he doesn't want weapons

suffering in the hands of our soldiers. is a good fight. >> yes. >> so, speaking about the truck drivers, i think the bigger threat for trough-- truck drivers is the self driving vehicle. but, the question i had was if you could just relate each or any of you great stories about the law of unintended consequences and i think in particular with regards to things like invasive species when we see the vietnamese-- [inaudible] >> invading certain ecosystems. are there other stories you come across that have good intentions gone bad. >> jonathan,-- >> i think that's as about as big as i got right there with nukes. >> i think the-- one of the biggest disruptions of recent decades is the invention of the

shipping container because that's really is the very low-tech developments that enabled off shoring and the outsourcing of so much of our economy goes suddenly shipping long distances became much more efficient. for a thousand years we used to load ships like you pack your trunk going away for a vacation. guys carrying on stuff and piling it in a big zero. now you have to see how these container ships work. they had these cranes that drop them down on rails in a stack in so orderly and the goods are sealed away from the port and there's no theft, no loss in every thing as tract. well, there is some of that, but not like it used it to be. kneeled day there was 20% loss of every ship. what it really enabled was moving everything offshore