and we called out these isms last century, naziism, fascism, imperialism and communism. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. minnesota.-- .. this is meaningful to restoration and the new press as we amplified and spotlight marginalized voices.

we want to saying diane and the pristine for their partnership. a round of applause please. are also want to note books are for sale following tonight's conversation. if you ever doubted those devoted to maintaining hierarchy's are rooted in race and sex, reed pushed out. xi jinping tells us how schools are crushing the spirit and talent this country need getting desperate tonight's conversation is syed farook of field support for new york public schools,

speaking to tonight's daughter, dr. xi jinping. give these women are real welcome. >> tonight's conversation would not be complete without hearing voices of young women from dr. morris's research. actress goldie christina, but we at present "pushout: the criminalization of black girls in schools". [applause] >> this is the cry, was thrown to the ground and physically and

verbally assaulted after she refused to leave her friend at the enforcement of a law enforcement officer that went viral. pushed her face into the ground as she, a bikini clad teenager who presented no physical threat or danger, case full, grinding his knee into her bare skin and restraining her by placing the full weight of his body onto her. the incident was violence and reeked of sexual assault. it was inappropriate, not controlling inconsistent with the police apartment policies, training and articulate it practices. the internal scrutiny associated with these actions, the image of her helpless from body under his

has become one of the snapshot that call public consciousness to overzealous policing and criminalization of last -- black youth. the efforts have focused on extreme intolerable cases involving black boys such as trayvon martin in florida, a growing number of cases involving black girls reveal what many of us have known for centuries, black girls are impacted by criminalizing policy that random vulnerable to abuse, exploitation, dehumanization and death. 18-year-old proctor died in police custody after she was arrested for disorderly conduct. in high-profile cases involving boys, girls were right there alongside them. the officers tackled his 14-year-old sister to the ground, not only had she just

watched her little brother died but she was forced to greet his death from the back seat of a police car. addressing these narratives from social and political climates, one that is racist for questions of distant, out surveillance of a home where families live or communities where schools where children are educated. welcome to push out. a conversation with monique morris. as sisters and brothers and community leaders we're all excited to engage in thoughtful and powerful conversation with monique morris. as we examine the injustice black girls experience in school and beyond, how we change this new narrative. it is my pleasure and honor to

introduce dr. monique morris. monique morris is an author and social justice caller with 20 years of professional and volunteer experience in areas of education, civil rights, juvenile and social justice. dr. morris is the author of african-americans by numbers in the twenty-first century, too beautiful for words and "pushout: the criminalization of black girls in schools," criminalization of black girls in school. she has written articles, check is in the publications on social justice issues and lectured on research policies and practices associated with juvenile justice, education land socio-economic conditions for black girls, women and their families. dr. morse is co-founder and president of the national black justice institute and former vice president for economic

programs, an advocacy, and research at the national association for the advancement of colored people, for social justice at uc-berkeley what coolidge her work as inform development and implementation of improved cultural culturally competent engender responsive continuum of service previews, dr. morris's research into race, gender, education and justice, to explore the way is black communities and other communities of color are affected by social policies. i think sp for everyone when i thank dr. morris for writing this book and having an important conversation. tonight we have the opportunity to ask dr. moore's some questions about the boat, and engage in a conversation with dr. morris and at the end we

will open up to the audience who i know has a lot of questions they would like to ask about the book and some of dr. morris's thoughts on how to change this narrative. >> hi, everybody. welcome. >> you referenced edward morris's/andymac, in the 2007 study found black girls in the classroom perceived as an ladylike and loud. talk about combating the stereotype of the loud black woman. >> interesting how we come to understand the identity of black women and girls. much of the discussion is centered in a critique of the way in which the black feminist identity has been presented publicly and in our scholarship

and consciousness. when i talk about "pushout: the criminalization of black girls in schools" and talk about the politics, practices and prevailing consciousness that underlies how we approach girls, how we understand what they're capable of, and they ultimately will become. that study is a profound one for me because it does begin 0 to agitate consciousness around how we understand identities as they lined with historically constructed stereotypes especially in this age of social media where means dominate what is occurring. the identity of black girls and women is presented dance consistent with hypersexual,

loud and sassy, consistent with being an emasculating in repressions and the latest one, the combination of all three, interpreted in many different ways. the way we misrepresented or misunderstood black women and identity plays into unconscious about how we understand and treat behavior. when girls are asking questions in class or questioning material it is often perceived as an affront to the authority of adults were being combat if or defiant in ways that inconsistent with their true intentions. in some ways given the legacies that accompany the behavioral patterns we see in school, we see how all hypercivilization of black girls prevents responding to trauma and victimization and

that is problematic. >> i'm curious how many of you have had a similar experience, does that resonate with you? we had a great conversation even before the session about the conversations that were happening outside the meeting. this will be a platform for a conversation that can affect policy. the next question, the talks about girls, hard violates the dress code and discipline appearance. what -- huckabee address the racist frescoed for punishing women and house of these girls dress? >> this is a tricky question about how girls should address. is interesting, talking about

this, revisit why used to dress and when i think of my two daughters and their presentation and recognize much of the way adults enforce the dress code is through a spirit of love. there are places in the country where schools have dress codes that allow natural hair styles to be worn if you are of african descent. no locks, many people in this room would not be able to go to school with our hair the way it is. and obviously, i say this explicitly in the book, those policies need to be removed. there's no place for regulation of individual cultural practices around hair. has nothing to do with what is learned. is disproportion we impact's black girls.

the dress code is an interesting piece with a different component because not only foreign is it about girls showing up in short shorts and spaghetti strap tank top, about the policeing and girls' bodies in different ways. much of what i discuss in "pushout: the criminalization of black girls in schools" is related to differential implementation of the dress code. not necessarily that it exists but it is how adults are enforcing the dress code the renters black girls vulnerable to policing of their bodies. there are girls who tell stories about arriving in school in short shorts. they have a white or aiding counterpart wearing the same shorts but it is a problem on her body. when girls protest against differential treatment the way many girls are inclined to do, they get an additional reprimand.

that to me is critical for how we come to understand what the dress codes are intending to do versus what they are actually doing and how we used the dress code to determine who is capable of entering a phase of learning and use it as a way to turn certain populations away. have a research project organization is working on with the georgetown law center of poverty and inequality and having a discussion about school resource officers and girls of color and went to a southern city to begin conducting research and many of the police officers talk about how they are asked to intervene in dress code violations, in formally engage with girls and interact whether they're dressing appropriately, some administrators at will turn away if she doesn't come with a pink shirt. in my mind, what are we

emphasizing here? we lost prioritization of learning and have come to prioritize enforcement of rules around dress. that is taking from the true intention of schooling. the goal and function of an institution. i talk about what schools are doing in a life of young people. critical is the understanding of education is a criminal protective factor against contact with the legal system. if that is true, we should be doing everything we need to do to keep girls in school, not find creative ways to turn them away. we are having a conversation about dress code and weather girl has a hat and that is reason to leave we have taken a conversation about the true intention of schools and turned its into something else.

is important to think through the concept as they emerge and examine the function of what schools are. schools can reinforce social norms and societal norms or engage young people in the practice of learning to combat their oppression. denise cool centering critical thinking, and the knowledge that they need to be productive members of society and citizens in our spaces are not the schools and forcing frescoed and turning people away because they're showing up with a hat on. for black girls, there are nuances around that because a black girl may show up with hat on because her hair is being berated and for those of us with braids, that can be a two day process. if a girl shows up with a hat on and you have to take off, it is

not coming off. not to be in class because that is an embarrassing situation. we don't have the conversations around cultural competency and unintended, don't even want to say and intended because we have enough information to know about how we are operating. undesired consequences with implementing frescoed. dress code. >> i can tell we have all seen that as parents and educator's. let me tell you a story for every story you told us. thank you so much for starting that conversation. indy section asking tough questions, you mention we've given man's world that oppresses strong women. the book talks about white society. what role to black men play in a

systematic oppression of black women. >> guest: i want -- let me back to answer that question. i was in a detention facility talking to girls while researching "pushout: the criminalization of black girls in schools". before i could say much of anything i came in contact with this girl, in her opening question to me, she said you know that song is a man's world? i said yes. she said i don't like that song. i said i don't like it either. why don't you like it? what does that say to a strong girl like me? i processed that for years, thinking what she was trying to tell me. processed it with my friends. one of my friends had an interesting perspective. she was telling you to recognize

her strength, saying i see you and i want you to see me. i am a strong girl. like i have feelings. once i acknowledged that, and saw her, she was able to question whether that song was reinforcing more miss in our society and homes about the locus of power and control. the waste in which our public discourse is embraced this idea that in order for the family to the hole, the person to be told there has to be a male presence. this girl did identify as a get a girl, she called herself, and in a detention facility around that, for her she was processing a lot about her identity. one of the things i

intentionally do in this space is engage and interstitial lens to understand there are multiple experiences guiding one's system with people and with girls, having to sit in a space where the conversation publicly is about males, the prioritization of dollars in community and programming around the community, the absence of men in conversation about girls was present in her life. to me, played out in her asking that question and the exchange we had about that. when i talk historically, in quotes because in the last ten years, when i have been one of three women asking for question, what about the girls, it is met

with silence and there has not been robust engagement among men who engage in that space. in many ways the pushback received his come from men who want me to be quiet while we prioritize the boys. others in this space to engage the conversation about supporting men and boys. i long said the investment made with black men wasn't necessary investment and important to have the conversation and it continues to be important to have a conversation. it is import to have conversations about women and girls. that is where i have been in this space and where i will be until we bridge conversations about the community share, the surveillance we share and the acknowledgment that while structures are impacting both of us or anyone on the gender continuing in similar ways the impact, responses have to be

tailored to those impacts, have to engage in functioning around intersect finality to appreciate there are certain experiences women and girls are facing that do allow us and require us to quickly engage men and bullies and those conversations are not happening. in some communities, i say in "pushout: the criminalization of black girls in schools" i intend this to be the beginning of a more robust conversation engagement around these issues but one of the first things that needs to happen is men need to be able to engage. there are lots -- at the root of a lot of this is sexual victimization of women and girls. girls most at risk are

experiencing multiple forms of and from the songs we sing s 6-year-olds, in yards, school campuses, to how we come to engage them as scholars and learners in ways that render them invisible or elevate them to the point we have this really the economists inert of where we see black women as successful, high achievers on one end and overrepresented among girls pushed out of school and the other end disproportionately represented among girls who are sexually exploited, haven't been in school for years in some cases. we haven't reconciled this space. part of that has to do with the absence of a narrative and discussion about the continuing and what role we are playing in facilitating consciousness the

leader ignores or only sees success. >> that is why we are here, we're thankful that you were courageous enough to open up this dialogue with "pushout: the criminalization of black girls in schools". you are the one we have been waiting for to open that dialogue. that is why this book is so popular. i have a chance -- i thought i would order it and wasn't even in print yet. probably three four months before it came out, we agree with you and are so thankful we're having this conversation. >> there is a community of mostly women engaged in this work. before "pushout: the criminalization of black girls in schools" i was involved in some way but as a community we were engaged in conversation. the african-american policy forum developed black girls

matter and the publisher of the dry road in 2012 on race, gender and the pipeline, the national women's law center and the legal defense fund issued a paper on unlocking opportunities for african-american girls, and the human rights, georgetown, poverty and the foundation to produce a report for the present pipeline. lots of folks have been trying to to engage and to aid little bit but there is still researchers in absence of critical engagement around the resources in a way to center black girls in a conversation about the full continuum in a way to assess risk. >> there are other studies that encourage us all to research.

another piece of the book that is so powerful, about the girls, i would love to hear a little more, tell us a little more about that? >> diamond was a young teenager who was in relationship with a much older man, he was her pimp. she was sexually exploited and i met her again in the detention facility. this was a girl with the problematic relationship with schools, who had been moving in and out, haven't had the critical response to victimization that she needed. we bring desperate search for it. she was spotted on the street by some of her classmates later

started to bully her and teach her about being on the streets. the way she put it was they would try to make me fight them. the response was one of conflict and schools failed to recognize the ways in which she had been bullied and capture her as a problematic person who was always fighting. when she had had enough she engaged in an act of vandalism and wrote on the wall which resulted in her expulsion. by her being expelled from school she was in violation of her conditions of probation which required her to go to school so there is a cycle in her case that not only was her victimization not addressed by a mandatory reporting agency that should have recognized this as a function of abuse but the structural justice system response was to criminalize her

and pushed her further away from the institution that could help her here. for her, by the time i met with current engaged with her she was feeling like i need house. i ha . i haveout . i have. i have not been in school. we getting them to engage in ways that were helpful. she was processing in and out and i asked her finally what she need to be in school. she said i need people. finally i asked aside from a counselor how to use in schools and could better respond to black girls in crisis? >> let's take a listen.

>> usually teachers will only connect with certain students that think they deserve more because they get straight as. there's a reason why, they're faster learners. they study more, getting more attention than the other kids. black kids at home, we don't get that much attention. our mother and dad are working. resistor is taking care of as. are grandmother is taking care of us. we don't have the attention we want from our parents. i don't care. i see my mom, you are not my mom. wonder if we see that in our girls. >> when she responded that way,

of course mothers and fathers are involved in children's education. the data do show that black parents are engaged in asking children about homer, checking homework, they may not show up at the school way we are envision but many people are going what? that is inconsistent with my experience. and important to include that. those at higher risk and unstable home environments where parents are intervening. in that narrative she is pointing for her desire for a caring adult. when you haven't established that relationship it is seen as

fair. one thing about this i want to uplift as part of the cultural competency element is intuition. in much of my work with black girls especially the pieces on sacred inquiry, this notion of intuition and cycling cannot be lost. knowing if somebody is real, they use language that might be this girl has attitude. they are connecting or not connecting metaphysical level associated with high you think they are authentic or not

authentic. secondly, it is about saying you have not built trust with me in a way to allow me to trust you. it takes time to fully explore but also takes time to deconstructs particularly among girls who have been sexually exploited and having relationships with people and want to see themselves as acting in old ways, she needed a space to explore her own identity as a westerner and a founder and a detention facility where she has been criminalizes and much of this was not occurring but there were different interventions the took place along that journey. >> a powerful section of the book. in this section, in the classrooms, go to detail about

prostitution in questions, how can parents and decatur's bring out the subject of teenage prostitution and joy adults wait for the behavior for the present or should the topic be brought up regardless? >> one cannot want to acknowledge is there is still the such thing as a teen prostitute or a child prostitute, these are children being commercially and sexually exploited. there's a lot of language adjustment we are engaged in hell as a community to better understand what conditions are for the girls and that is important because in the livestock cowboy of many black girls given the legacy of hypercivilization people will read them as choosing to participate in this life as opposed to an act of harm.

educators may not know there is a young person who is at risk or actively engaged particularly because many girls don't identify, they won't be like guess what? the bears away her in the school environment to have conversations about health intimate partner relationships and they are asking for that and it is interesting because there's debate about whether there should be sex education in schools but when girls are having an opportunity to engage with each other and boys and rencontre stations about these relationships, you see different outcomes.

there should be segments of the district code that really do guide educator's if they suspect there is a girl or boy in their environment that is commercially sexually exploited or at risk of exploitation. children in foster care are at increased risk. we know many times we capture those kids, new data from the department of education talked-about more than 6 million children who are possibly truant. miley immediate reaction was take a closer look. if we are talking about chronic truancy we are talking about a host of other risks so we can't designate an education system that says they are truant and therefore out of our care and that is how we report them. we also have to have a critical partnership with other agencies

to make sure we're getting those kids back in because when they are in school there reduced risk of harm, not to say the harm doesn't occur. there are local and national cases involving girls experience in commercial sexual exploitation and violence in schools where there has not been equal protection for that, critical ways for the community to address these issues. some cases have been covered a. there is a routine way of sexual victimization of black girls we must confront these are questions, important dialogues that have to take place because it impacts them. we can no longer afford to say that is not my issue. it is everyone's issue. >> working in the school department have a lot of work to

do and questions we are not currently asking. i thank you for that and check on the teenage prostitution, we have to be courageous to check each other and recognize how powerful that is so thank you. >> i said that, knowing we are in a moment of transition. the associated press agreed to use the term commercially sexually exploited instead of child prostitution. looking at the headlines, that is what you would see and framed our consciousness that i was talking about earlier on. >> back to the curtis asian about is offending parents again, disciplining parents, does the media play a role in

oversexualizing of black women and should we limit women -- children exploded oversexualize realization of black women, reality tv or limiting exposure, a form of shaming? >> there are two places where the conversation is happening and it is interesting to see how those are playing out. when is, as a mother of the leaf in censorship. i also believe in processing where there is no censorship. i have always believed it is important to engage the healing power of the narrative. tell the story. there's a lot shot off, turn down discussion. it is, you are not giving it, we all know it will get collected from someplace else we may not wanted to be collected from the

it is important to have conversations about that at age appropriate level. edison aat a certain age i beli censorship. they describe their frustration with media representation to engage in a reconstruction of that identity. there are a lot of possibilities, use radio organizations, actively trying to work with girls to shift inert of engage in a critical examination. and any sexual as asian, age compression that occurs in that

space. and women who are called girls, aged continuing, young women and girls ability to see them beyond this continuum but we need better conversations if you want to engage in conversations with their too sexy for school. for me that term is used facetiously. i don't think little girls are fixed. there's nothing sexy about a little girl. when we are talking about girls and how they are presented in school, you calling something sexy is a comment on her body. we have to call ourselves out for that and talk about ways of getting around that. one thing i recommend is engaging in constructive

processes around the development of standards and norms in the classroom. there are conversations happening with girls about what norms should be in place in school to feel safe and not to be punished for being perceived as a distraction to other members of the school community. those are the places girls feel safest to represent and boys are most respectful. it is important to have these conversations. i started with the narrative because we have to engage in conversations with young people about what climate they need to feel safe and it may be inconsistent with what we believe through. it might be a hot date. >> is something i'm taking away from your response. there is the charge to educate

ourselves about other resources and images, videos, things like this that our children would be interested in and to make sure we are aware until we can offer them as a counter narrative to what they see. >> a lot of ways we see young people engage inert schools are reflection of what is happening in communities. what is happening in schools is not divorced from what goes on in communities. we see it on buses. it is in our space is. on my way here i heard a group of boys talking about some girl who was doing sexual acts in the bathroom at their school. the way they were talking about i resisted the urge to intervene. the way they were talking about was eliminating to me. no problem really talking quite loud on the train about some girl who was doing something and no ownership of all about how

they were framing that relationship in that exchange or hours it might negatively impact her. they were naming names. i hope that girl is not on the train or any of her friends because that will result in something that could happen on school grounds, could lead to other conflicts. to me, partly the result of not having the kinds of conversations we need to have about engaging with each other and what is appropriate and learning spaces outside whether or not a person is dressed appropriately. there are other ways of demonstrating to young people what is appropriate for time and place. schools have occupational field days, where you can dress appropriately, they concede role modeling occur among individuals when they do career days. other schools don't have dress codes emphasize this is how you

dress in these conditions as opposed to you don't have a belt on. these are the cases i am talking about. you don't have a belt on, go home. your shoes have something they shouldn't. these things that are turning girls away that they describe to me are unconscionable. >> struggling to divide, you talk about it was common for black women through history to rebel against authority and discipline but how do we give modern context and keep things in perspective for black girls when it comes to oppression versus discipline? when do we tell our girls punishment is just outrageous? >> it is important to have conversations with children very early on about oppression. i come from the school the challenges of our thinking around oppression.

one of the things she said is there's no hierarchy of oppression. many times in the lives of girls we are asked to prioritize their oppression. they have to be black first, female second, they have to be female first, their sexual identity second or some way we ask them to prioritize their complex identities to fix what we need them to be at that moment. when we are talking about these conditions, when we are talking about facilitating conversations that are ultimately going to produce new outcomes and new narratives for girls we have to get in to understand there are consequences associated with behavior is the those consequences don't have to be about punishment. they can learn from their mistakes. they are worthy of that. that is not a message we

routinely engage with our children or the black girls receive especially in high poverty schools. when they are in the schools we have structures in place to emphasize discipline partly because those leading the schools have believed to supplant punishment is the way you respond. i had a spirited conversation with some folks on an interview in the south recently where there is the belief that spare the rod, spoil the child, deep-seated ideas about what discipline looks like. one of the callers for the station said we need more corporal punishment. the issue here is not just the we have structures in place july do believe corporal punishment has no place in school but we

also see a different impact, black girls are overrepresented among children receiving corporal punishment which means we are more inclined to be black girls and other girls. we are more inclined to beat black boys. where does that come from? how do we unlearn that you must be abusive in response? violence in response to negative behavior and get mad later in life when they use violence in response to conflict and question where did you learn that? it was a parent. no, it was the school. we have to think about how we are routinely enacting or reinforcing social mores and cultural norms or engaging in the process of the constructing those things. >> i was struck by the concept that runs through the book.

>> guest: when i talk about an amiga system for girls particularly black girls, i emphasize feeling. caught about ways to engage young people and all of that has a place in the healing process but there are other ways too in which to construct healing spaces, one has to do with development of the healing in for responses to negative behavior including restored if practices with mind fullness and cooperative discussions with young people and creating climates of safety but there's also the newly informed classroom, dealing informed

'clashes about centering classr building democracy about curriculum. college and readiness is part of informed space is especially girls at risk, for those girls including those who have been commercially sexually exploited or operating an underground economy puts them in touch with criminal and juvenile legal system they have to see the connection between education and how they will earn money. we have to be transparent about that. we just say learn and for some girls the freedom to just learn or trust the process enough to just let go is not there. they have to see the connection

between what they're learning and how they will resolve their economic well-being in the near future and the learning component is critical where there has to be a deconstruction of implicit processes that informed decision making. what tools of using? how we engage with them to have the kind of conversation the need to be held so we can assess risk inappropriate way to engage in conversations about whether a child as a threat to public safety we don't like how she talked to me. we have to figure out and work within the structure to develop a new set of norms. it is asking different questions, whether there are assumptions, and whether they

consider their life experiences. and >> we could stay on the dealing things last night. and the healing of the educator. and those discussions as well. it is a 3d experience, not just one type of girl, or a challenge. i want to hear about destiny, >> destiny was a black latina, it was a high performer. she is taking a pee courses.

she had an addiction. by incarcerating. >> talk about her experiences in schools, and the importance of schools in her life, also discouraged from engaging in her school's and interactions with teachers, and the importance of student teacher relationships, and the relationships in different institutions, and what they say to black girls, >> let's take a listen. >> >> is that special attention in

class. and noticed the teacher will be willing to help the master class. and you can stop by for tenor 15 minutes, i won't wait an hour just for you. it is like shoot, they did it for the asian girl, a lot of indian people there and they stay after school until 5:00 doing extra work or working on an extra project the teacher gave them to do and everybody else will be there for 1015 minutes just to talk and i tried talking to the geometry teacher. she wanted to rush me out of the classroom.

never mind. i will see you in class. thank you for that one. we had a similar experience the other evening with my own daughter who had the almost identical experience and what it did to her and she comes home with two educated parents and didn't want to school next day. it is the image how many people in the audience, a child from self or your own child. >> we tend to construct a single identity with black girls. for that reason it is important to engage narratives to talk

through girls who are african-american but also afro caribbean, black latina and to get to a place where we understand the diversity of experiences, there's a common theme with lowered expectations the we have often seen, informs the lens through which we see black girls. to use the term they are afraid, the way in which we grant them permission to sail. that is a critical piece for us. i don't believe in throwaway children or the promise of black girls, we tend to construct narratives, if they fight their problematic. if they talk back they have an attitude. if they wear short shorts there another word i don't use. is important to check ourselves

on how we read these behaviors but also to engage girls in conversations how they are constructing their own identities and how they need to be part of the construction of a new narrative. the absence of girls in a national conversation about the black community and no way we could frame a racial justice initiative without talking about black and girls but also my interactions with girls in the juvenile ecosystem informed how i want to work backwards and talk to girls before they get to do legal system. you have to go straight to the source. there's a way in which weaken go to the source as a practice in all our engagements that will informed how we engage not just with girls in school girls on the subway, girls inert families or down the hall, our selves.

that to me is part of the call to action, to think through alternatives. >> we have one more, you talked about this a little bit, social economics and poverty. one in four black women live in poverty. how can we as a community work to change and challenge statistics and how can women who live in poverty improve their quality of life especially in cases where they have children to care for? >> black women understand the value of education, not education director results in you being out of poverty or not true. it does open up the field and scope of possibility to engage differently.

i remember having conversations in brooklyn, we had focus groups with girls who talked about the frustration they felt after not being in school and trying to get a job, clearly understanding there were real barriers associated with that, with formerly incarcerated women there's also a discussion about things they didn't get as girls and they found ways to living conditions of poverty that did not include education that cemented their position in poverty. one of the things i include in the appendix that is the q&a as a discussion with girls how much earning potential you gain with specific degrees and the way in which you increase the degree. we are continuing to explore that with young people, and they

become stars or the support. the majority have to work in different ways. we can follow our passions. and we're applying that. and have another conversation of one ethnic group and the absence of infrastructures bad. talking about making sure communities are whole and saved. and what they must have is, and they're not relegating to a

specific community. and at that enclave's can exist and not begin. and a, justice about uplifting community, not on exploitation, the bad hustle. the concept of exploitation, the way that feels our consciousness, historically to fuel historical trauma and contemporary conditions the might informed how we move and where jobs are located.

>> and how we do change this narrative. is so we would like -- i think we're going to set up a mic right here, and if you would like to just go to the mic, thank you so much. [laughter] >> [inaudible] [laughter] >> hello. >> hello. >> so my name is leslie ann

dunn, and i work in the office of equity and access at the new york department of education. so, one, i am the one saying what about the girls, what about the girls. two, i've been pushing a book like this. and then they're like, she's going to be here. just a couple of things. you know, when we started launching -- we had launched a young women's program at the central office, and i couldn't find the work to support what i was trying to do. i met joanne smith be, i met professor crenshaw which led me to britney cooper which led me to go. so it feels good. it feels like we're on the right path. but i've been thinking a lot about teacher preparation and how universities are preparing teachers. and a city like new york in particular, we're descended by thousands of people every year with bright lights in their eyes who say they want to teach. and i'm wondering, have you come across any university or college programs that are kind of getting at it, and who should we go visit, and who's doing it? are there any best practices for

new york city to go take a look at? >> good question. you know, the -- first, you know, i think you are uplifting names that should be uplifted in this conversation because there's some participatory action work that is happening here in new york that i think is very promising and that deserves, you know, greater uplift. so i'm glad that you're in touch with girls for gender equity, because that's very important work that they're doing. you know, schools that train teachers have not emphasized to the extent possible or to the extent that possibly should be emphasized the importance of caring and leading with love. and when i talk to girls about what they are needing most is less judgment, more love. so often, you know, in these conversations folks will say what is your recommendation, and i'm like, well, probably the most radical thing i say is that, right? lead with love. see the whole person. engage her. that said, you know, i think

there are emerging practices happening around the country. conversations, districts that are having conversations now about developing collaboratives. oakland unified school district is one that i'm working with that is in the process of building out a collaborative for african-american girls. one of the few, if not the only in the country, that is looking to do that and bring in partners and have critical, a critical direction for that work. i am also working with a host of organizations, we have a partnership with a local community college, an organization that specializes in working with commercially sexually-exploited girls and a mentoring center to develop -- and, i'm sorry, our county office of education to develop an educational pilot reentry program for girls. and so in that space, we're constructing, you know, peld gynecologiy that is really -- pedagogy that is rooted, it feels radical to say that, but

that's what we have to do is engage in these conversations so that young people feel connected to what they're learning and how they're learning and understand that what they're learning and how they're learning connects to their well being. and to actively engage in this healing process as they learn. and that's one thing that the girls will tell us, is, you know, actually one of them said this school feels like the foam mattress that is tailored to you. your body gives in it, and it's fine. [laughter] i took that to mean we're wrapping ourselves around huerta that feels like her education is tailored to her specific needs, right? and that's what young people are thirsting for, right? and so there are other districts, hickman mills has been having a series of conversations in missouri about, you know, a series of ways to interrogate their own internalized depressions and implicit bias. and so, you know, there are different districts around the country that are not only engaging in the full continuum or the development of the

continuum of responses to problematic student behavior like restorative approaches, but that there are also, you know, the kinds of faculty engagement around understanding implicit bias that i find very helpful and useful. >> well, thank you. martine is here, so it seems like we need a road trip. >> yes, oakland. [laughter] good evening. thank you for this really important book. i think, one, it's very salient that we're having conversation in front of a black woman posed many front of the central office of the new york city central department of education. [laughter] a naked black woman that breaks all the stereotypes of what allegedly beauty is. >> right. >> my question is around the concept of sexuality and young women and specifically for those of afro-caribbean descent. because as a caribbean person, we grow up being exposed to what

most americans conceive of as sexuality in terms of carnival and hooking up and that sort of thing, and then you come here and things that aren't necessarily always sexualized in our culture become very sexualized here. and things that i think -- and there's even, there's a lot of discussion going on many places like barbados and jamaica and trinidad around, you know, carnival and the new wining they're doing and stuff like that. but the tension that then evolves in terms of how you step into womanhood and celebrate your culture and at the same time maintaining modesty and where all of that meets here, and you see it played out like a rihanna versus beyonce conversation, what are your -- [laughter] what, i don't even know -- like, what are your thoughts on that? and then tying that into the

historical, racial, slavery composition of how black women have been sexualized? >> yeah. you know, i think that's a deep question, very complex. >> compound, i'm sorry. >> yes. [laughter] what i think is important about that for this discussion is to think through, again, the ways in which we have not as black women and girls largely been responsible for the framing around our own identities in the public domain. and so it's very important for us to develop i few spaces -- develop new spaces for us to take that conversation back. and to have the kinds of critical dialogue that a lot of hip-hop, black feminist scholars are having around these very same questions, right? around how bodies are presented, how are we receiving bodies, how are we interpreting the, you know, dance, some of which have roots in traditional african

dance, most of which have roots in traditional african dance. people talk about twerking as if it's a problem and forgetting that it comes from a traditional african dance, right? dances really. and there's a time and place for it all, but there are definitely, you know, young people who are activists in this space who are trying to reclaim and engage in a challenging to some of the normative or the ways in which our construction of black femininity have been normalized to white middle class standards and how that plays out in our conversations about risk, in our conversations about worth. you know, there is a space for us to continue to have conversations about these things because i do see very young girls who want to embrace their own sexuality, who want to celebrate their cultural roots and who want to, you know, sort of participate many -- in that domain in ways and with people that place them at harm. >> yes.

>> you know, that they are harmed as a result of them doing it because we have not had the critical discussions about how it is received, who you are with, how you are doing it, all those things. and so, again, the healing power of the narrative suggests that we tell our stories about those dances, right? and i think beyonce does do a good job of doing that. she does show -- like, you think i'm doing this, but let's just look at the dance, right? if you travel more, then you see it, right? or you have these kinds of exchange programs, then you will understand it's not about a constructed sexualization of black women who were deeply oppressed under conditions of slavery that we still continue to live -- that informs the gaze under which we live about our bodies and about its presentation and its use and functionality in society, but also how we are perfectly human and embrace our sexuality as a part of that. >> thank you.

>> good evening, and thank you for your voice and for your activity in the world. thank you. >> thank you. >> the really pressing first question, i have a couple i'm going to try and sneak in, but the pressing first one is where were you in 1997? and i'm going to explain that to so nobody gets the wrong idea or anything. that was when i was hired by the new york city department of education to work as a teacher. and everybody said you'll never get a job because you're an actor and you have a drama/performing arts license. nobody needs that. i said, i'll bet you i get a job. so when i went in and met the superintendent, i said, he said where do you want to work? like i was being asked where i want to work. and i said i want to work with the kids that nobody else in new york city wants to work with.

and he sort of laughed at me. he said, you sure? i said, absolutely. he didn't know that i'd grown up at boystown, father flanagan's boys' home. i said i want to work with the kids. he said how would you like to work at a school called rosewood? and my first job was at rosewood high school on rikers island. and i worked there for three years with girls and women between the age os of 16 -- ages of 16 and 65. and everything that you just described was what was presented to me without any backup preparation, highfalutin teacher training program. all it was, was me showing up to work, happy not to be a struggling actor anymore, having health benefits, you know, all that. and engaging with these stories, every single story that you say people don't want to talk about, they all wanted to talk about prostitution, violence.

it was, i was deconstructed, you know? it was like a death process. i went home crying every night, shaking in my bed, you know? but i kept on wanting to come back because i knew that something really important for myself was happening. you know, the glue was that i think we identified with each other, because we identified with each other's pain and loneliness. you know? and i think maybe i'm asking a kind of question there because it's connected to my, one of my questions. as a white male, you know, who came out of there and started working in the doe as a principal and started jumping up in the middle of meetings with superintendents, some who they came from all walks of life, but they didn't seem to be willing to talk about any of these issues. what's my role, you know? how can i help without having my head pop or without having somebody tell me that the only reason i can say this is because

i have some kind of entitlement? they don't know where i came from either, you know? and, like, where do i fit in in this dialogue? because, you know, for me it's a very real world. >> yeah. >> and then if you could, talk a little bit about -- because i think you coined this term -- we've been talking about the school-to-prison pipeline, but you've talked about the school-to-confinement pipeline. and that rings very true with me in terms of what these girls taught me many in a prison about confinement. >> thank you. so a couple of things. you know, first is, you know, there's a body of growing research for people who need that about the value of empathy in schools. among teachers, educators, working with children. stanford has produced a series of studies looking at it as it has been particularly effective working with black boys and girls.

so engaging through empathy as opposed to engaging through punishment is a new direction, emerging direction and a place where all of us can enter. the ways in which, you know, again, girls respond to the question about who they want to lead them, it's important to have people around you who look like you or come from similar experience. and so, you know, i think that we should never undermine the opportunity to engage in a diversification of all professions and exposure to individuals who can demonstrate new paths, right? at the same time, i think what's most important is that the educators and individuals who are interfacing with these young people show that they care. and that's what the girls say. and i say that over and over again because really that's where all of us enter. do we care? do we believe they can do it? can we give them the tools to do it, right? and it's really simple.

and in so many spaces girls check out when they feel that there's no one there holding them accountable for that, engaging with them in a way that can reinforce their promise and empathizing with to oppressions that they have engaged. i talk about school-to-confinement pathways because in my own work it became very clear that school-to-prison pipeline was too narrow a framework to capture the multiple pathways to confinement that girls were experiencing. and that when we talk about school to prison, while it's an urgent framework that, you know, certainly engages all of us in a need and desire to respond, that for many of our girls, they haven't experienced prison, but they have experienced the multiple forms of confinement that exist along the juvenile legal system. confinement many homes -- in homes, the confinement in detention facilities, the confinement in schools, that there are ways in which we have talked about this phenomenon of criminalization --

>> would you include early motherhood as a form of confinement? >> early motherhood as a form of confinement? not necessarily. i don't pathologize early motherhood or single mothers. i think it's important for us to think about this identity that many girls do have once they have children, and there are lots of young mothers who are fighting against the stigma of being, you know, pushed out because they've had a child should not impact whether they can continue to go to school. right? there should be structures in place to account for that. and in many districts, there are. girls continue to finish, they are legally not supposed to be discriminated against because they have a child, and there are legal advocates who are working with districts to insure that happens. however, making decisions and searching more love and trying to form relationships with individuals that do impact mobility and do impact

opportunities to move freely, you know, certainly play a role many this conversation. and so, you know, i think what's most important again is to let girls be a part of constructing their own narratives around these issues and working with those of us who are engaged in policy discussion cans about what they actually -- discussions about what they actually need to be successful rather than sort of assuming that certain conditions are going to define their full rah jekyllly. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> yes, thank you. just to be conscious of time as well, we're just going to take the last three questions here unless someone else has a burning question. our friend over here was actually was next. did you need a mic? >> [inaudible] >> oh, okay. >> [inaudible] first of all, thank you for having this conversation -- [inaudible]

>> [inaudible]

[inaudible] so you have to be aggressive with it. [inaudible]

[inaudible] that's one, and the other one was -- [inaudible] >> you know, i'll start with the second one because i think, you know, it plays out differently throughout the country, and we're still building out the research that can answer that with some degree of integrity. you know, there is a constant narrative that has been

following black girls in rural and in urban spaces not necessarily that they are hypersexual, but there's this, again, the dichotomy around the high performer who's fine and the girl who's not worth our time. and so, you know, there's this way in which that renders both groups invisible that is counterproductive to our conversation about uplifting all of our children. what i'm seeing, what i'm recognizing in our work now is that in many spaces because schools are now more segregated than they were in those two decades that you named, in fact, the '80s is sort of like '88 is the height of integration as we saw it, and now there's a separation occurring where many of the children who are, you know, black girls are being educated in spaces that are also very black. and so there's not necessarily the kind of cultural dissonance occurring between educators and

children or youth among themselves, but there's this way in which there's a reinforcement of internalized impressions occurring that doesn't allow for girls to fully explore their own identities in ways that are more constructive. and so that, to me, again, speaks to the prevailing consciousness that i want all of us to deal with, right? the ways in which we're talking about bias, sexual oppression. i start the conversation in the book by anchoring it in duboise' double consciousness narrative, and i say there's a triple consciousness really for women and girls because never at any point no matter any other variable do they stop being black, female and american in a space, right? so we have to confront these identities and the ways in which it plays out. on the question about policymakers, you know, i have had varying degrees of access. i think the conversation, again, is just beginning.

and i certainly welcome the access and think that there are opportunities for us to talk through. i have received, you know, a lot of invitations from superintendents and from some elected officials at the national level who want to explore their policy and its potential impact on addressing some of these issues as they pertain to girls of color, black girls in particular, but i feel like we're at the very beginning of that. there's a lot more to be done. >> [inaudible] and with respect to -- [inaudible]

[inaudible] thank you. >> thank you very much. >> hi. i wanted to thank you so much for your work. it's much needed, much-needed conversation. my question is -- oops. okay. my question is as a black male, how can i appropriately engage my fellow brothers and homeys on these issues, specifically our contribution to the hyper-sexualization of our girls, and also how can i engage my brothers on becoming better advocates for our younger sisters, nieces in the current school systems? >> that's an important question, and i think in i guess to follow up on that spirit is to actually

just do it, engage. there's a fair amount of learning that needs to occur, right? and un-learning that needs to occur. and i think that healing work that i talk about with girls is also necessary with boys. right? and much of how we've talked about our engagement with boys has been around how we, you know, sort of create a culture of masculinity that centers them as the, in a way that, in some ways if you don't address the sexism that occurs, will reinforce those elements of our engagement with each other. so one of the things that i recommend in the book and that i just talk about in general is the need for us to have the talk with boys and girls and the talk needs to be about more than safety as it is framed in our current construct around violence, fatal violence particularly at the hands of state in public spaces. but also to think about the violence that occurs behind closed doors and the ways in which we are participating in

that violence in our speech, in our construction of norms and in how we just engage with each other, right? and i'll give you an example in schools, right, where there were boys' programs occurring in the schools, and one boy said to a girl, see, nobody cares about you, that's why you don't have a program. he was mad at her. [laughter] and she was like, oh, my gosh, i can't believe you said that to me. he was, like, don't nobody want to hear about your problems, what kind of problems you got? in many ways that was marmful for him -- harmful for him, and it was problematic for him to say no one cares about you which was traumatic for her. what she did in response was to create a girls' group and started a program for herself. [laughter] because that's what girls do, that's what black women do, right? see the void, we'll fix it. [laughter] so she went to fix it. but that was a very micro way of engaging around this, right? there's got to be new communications, new ways of understanding relationships and

an honoring of our partnership and shared experience in this work. i'm hopeful that with pushout and with other projects that are emerging we'll have more bridge spaces where we can have conversations about communities and shared experiences and also the things that are different in those spaces so that we can be supportive of each other. but the first thing is when information is circulating on social media or information is happening and coming out, engage. often times i see a hands-off approach. i can't talk about that. i've heard many cases, i can't speak on the girls. and i was like, you must speak on the girls. women are speaking on the boys, so we must have you speak on the girls. we are in a shared community. this is a shared experience. >> thanks so much. >> yeah. okay, last question. >> good evening. >> good evening. >> my name is judith joseph jenkins, this is my daughter, quincy. i'm an attorney at the housing authority.

i have a long-winded question, but i'm just going to -- [inaudible] and get my hug. monique is my -- [inaudible] [laughter] [applause] >> yea! so nice. >> do we have one last question? okay, come on. your turn. seize the opportunity. >> [inaudible] >> we'd like you to go to the mic. yes, please. >> hello, everyone, good evening. my name is -- [inaudible] i currently work -- [inaudible] where we pretty much -- >> [inaudible] [laughter] >> okay.

i work at a media literacy organization where we teach students how to comprehend, create, critique and, ultimately, challenge media. so i'm the only one of, if you know what i'm saying, in my organization. so i'm very, i used to be an advocate for two years, so primarily working with high school students, primarily girls, a lot of them dealing with pushout situations. so i wanted to know when you said you want the media literacy to improve, what exactly do you mean? because i'm trying to be a crusader in doing that. >> that's a beautiful thing. i want there to be a critical examination of imaging, symbolism. i think there has to be discussions about how bodies are presented on television and in ads and constructed in memes. i think we have to get our young people to understand what is constructed and what is rooted in stereotype and what is real.

and to understand the conditions that underlie that, right? that have supported the narratives that are harmful in our communities and that we can actively take a role in reframing. there is an absence of, especially among girls i've noticed, black girls, in being able to see images of themselves that are not very sexual. >> yes. >> and that see images of themselves that are not angry and sassy and to see themselves in ways that do engage their voice and their loud voice as a positive thing. i think you asked me a question before about this defiance and how historically that's what has sustained our well being, is our ability to speak up and out. and understanding that as a critical part of our resistance in that in many spaces our act of being in those spaces, your act of being in that space is an act of resistance and justice.

so when girls don't see themselves in some spaces but only in others, then they have to understand that being in the spaces where they are perceived as -- or where they are constructed as absent makes their presence, their mere being an act of justice, right? but they don't necessarily have that critique if they have not engaged in some of the critical thinking activities about narrative, about deconstructing norms, about understanding where these ideas, like so the historical roots of some of these ideas or why only certain stories get told and not others, right? what is the process for the storytelling to occur, right? where is the breakdown, right? who's not at that decision point, right? so thinking about all of these components and understanding how others reenact aspects of black femininity that are inconsistent with our lived experiences or that we may find funny in some spaces, but they're actually

really demeaning or insulting in others. they've got to be able to differentiate. and so i think any curriculum that you're developing, any ideas for, you know, ways of talking to young people about those things are very valuable. the other thing i think is important that other programs are doing is actually teaching girls how to construct their own narratives based on their own experiences, how to ask questions that they feel are being asked, right? or if they look at something, to say what's missing from this analysis, right? what's missing from this presentation? how would you approach this very same issue but maybe from a different experience? the more we center the lived experiences of young people especially with black girls who are often not involved in the construction of story and in the construction of the narrative, the better we're able to build their capacity to be engaged in other spaces in these very same ways. >> thank you. >> thank you. i'd really love to allow you to have the final word, but i would like to just express my

gratitude. i was so tired when i came in here today, and i'm so charged up and inspired right now. [laughter] it also makes me think about my favorite quote, to whom much is given, much is required. and i want you to know the gift that you've given to me and that we're not going to take that lightly. i'm inspired to do greater work, and hank for that gift. -- and thank you for that gift. we'd also like to just thank dr. indira etwaroo, is she here? okay. we just want to thank her and nicki johnson and everybody who created the space for us to have this very important dialogue tonight, and thank everyone for coming out and being so engaged. i know the great work that you will do moving forward. but we want to hear there you as a final thought. >> my final thought is really simple, and i'm actually going to ask you to engage me in this. and it's that one of the things that i hope black girls take from this entire discussion and that we develop a robust agenda

around is the idea that they are say red and loved. so -- sacred and loved. so i'm going to ask everyone to say out loud as loud as you can, black girls are sacred and loved. >> black girls are sacred and loved! please join me in thanking dr. morris. thank you so much. [applause] >> oh, good. yes, please join dr. morris over here be you would like to get a -- if you would like to get a book and have that signed. thank you. [inaudible conversations] >> a look now at some authors recently featured on booktv's "after words," our weekly author interview program. pulitzer or prize-winning journalist seymour hersh discussed the killing of osama bin laden. syndicated radio host dana loesch contended that the united states is dividing itself into

two countries; coastal america and flyover america. and "wall street journal" columnist kimberly strassel argued that the political left is using scare tactics to silence conservative speech. in the coming weeks on "after words," georgetown university law professor rosa brooks will look at the expanded role of the u.s. military around the world. former attorney general alberto gonzalez will recall his time serving in the justice department and as white house counsel in the bush administration. also coming up, new york times' publisher mark thompson will describe the way political speech has changed over time. and this weekend ann coulter makes her case for supporting donald trump for president. >> the things i trust him on are his basic philosophy of putting america first. >> yes. >> on trade, on immigration, on wars. he has made so many mistakes. i mean, little mistakes, and he backtracks, and he gets back on it. but when the entire media -- and

i mean the entire media -- rose up to crush him after that mexican rapist speech, i mean, it took me two weeks to believe he wasn't going to back down. in fact, i think it took me longer than that. i started e-mailing with corey lewandowski, and every once in a while i'd send a point, you know, you might want to mention x, y, z, but for probably six months, however many points i had, one of them would always be don't let him back down on immigration. and i think it was after the muslim ban i finally said, okay, i think he's not backing down. >> "after words" airs on booktv every standard at 10 p.m. and sunday at 9 p.m. eastern, and you can watch all previous "after words" programs on our web site at booktv.org. >> host: bob lyle is publisher of live right which is a division of -- >> guest: w.w. norton, the oldest independent in america. >> host: what kind of books do you publish? >> guest: mainly serious nonfiction and some literary fiction, books with a little edge to them.

books that can change the culture. >> host: well, we're here to talk to you about some of the books that are coming out, and let's start with this serious one called rat f-'d. >> guest: it tells the story of how the country has been redistricted since 2010 to shift all these congressional districts over to republican states. most of the architects of the program have spoken with the author, and he's traveled these districts. and you'll see districts go for 30 miles, like michigan's 14th ends in a garbage dump in pontiac, michigan. and it shows how these districts were created. the word rat f-'d was used by edmund wilson -- >> host: now, we're being polite in our use of the word, but the whole word is on the front of the book, isn't it? >> guest: no. the whole word is not. rat fucked is not on the front

of the book, there are two asterisks, and for the air we call it rat f-'d. it's a longstanding word to connote political espionage and sabotage. it's been david daly who's head of salon. >> host: another book that did come out already, but it was a finalist for the pulitzer. >> guest: marching home is just out in paperback, first book by a brilliant young historian, and it details what happened to all the veterans when they came to the north, how they were forgotten. the research is one of a kind, and it was just so unusual to get a finalist for the pulitzer. we are very proud of the book. >> host: who is wendy warren, and what has she written? >> guest: wendy warren, there are a lot of young, exciting historians in america. wendy warren is the historian at princeton. she has rewritten our 17th century, the 1600s in america.

she shows how slavery was indelibly linked to the founding of america. 50, 70% of the ships soaring out of the -- coarsing out of the new england harbors, boston, new haven, providence can, all were going to the west indies, the caribbean. she shows how many of the founding fathers invested heavily in slave shipping in general. john winthrop, city on a hill, his son was in barbados in 1928, excuse me, 1626 and not for tourism. >> host: he was there for -- >> guest: i assume he was there checking out the land, checking out you know what crops could be produced there. his father, john winthrop, only came over four years later. wendy warren has written a major work. >> host: shirley jackson, who was shirley jackson? >> guest: shirley jackson is, there's a huge renaissance. she's one of the ark the texts in fiction -- architects in fiction of horror, quality

fiction in this country. she's -- ruth franklin who is the author of this biography, says she's the heir apparent to poe and to hawthorne. and she's traced in this woman's life through her novels in the '50s, and it predates feminine mystique, and it's this stunning biography. >> host: how -- why have a lot of us not heard of her? >> guest: most people have heard of her through the lottery. the lottery's one of the most famous short stories written in the new yorker in 1948. she was forgotten. suddenly, you know, america's filled with fiction revival, and she is suddenly all over the place. >> host: there's a novel that's coming out by alan moore. what is this book, bob? >> guest: it's one of the hottest novels in the world including in america. it's coming out in september. alan moore's famed mostly as a graphic novelist, but this is a text novel which he's worked on 20 years.

he lives a hermit-like existence in northhampton, england, and he's written story of life and fate and the story of one family over 10, 12 centuries. and it's really this joyce-like epic, and it's getting crowds of people. new yorker, everyone, it could be one of the monster works of fiction of this year. >> host: and it's called jerusalem, and it's 1200-plus pages. >> guest: it is. jerusalem, it's named after a poem by william blake, and it's really the story of life in a family and mysteries and and the universe, and i think it's a work of fiction that will last for a hundred years. alan moore also, v for victory, has a huge, huge fan base. watchman. and you're going to see an explosion of interest in his work. >> host: is it about the city of jerusalem? >> guest: no. jerusalem, it's about the underclasses of northampton, england, but it's taken --

jerusalem was written by william blake, and it's about the poor people of england in the 1600s. and he's transsupposed this to -- transsupposed in the to north hampton. the characters would remind you a lot of joyce's characters of ulysses. it's a very ambitious, exciting book, and i think it will explode. >> host: a couple more books we want to share with you that are coming up. eric j. dolan. >> guest: a lot of people in your audience know of him. he has written a three century, four-century history of lighthouses starting with the boston lighthouse, even until today, what has happened to lighthouses. he tells the story of america through the lighthouses, what they did in war, who the lighthouse keepers were, you know, technology versus old-fashioned. it's a riveting book which is, i think for anyone traveling, there are hundreds of lighthouses around lake michigan. you wouldn't know where they are in america.

it tells the story through a most unusual source, and who doesn't like a lighthouse? shanine is one of the most renowned war correspondents in the world. she is everywhere where there's danger going on. this book is just out, the morning they came for us, and it's all about what happened in syria. the prose is vivid, it is a remarkable story of one courageous war correspondent's efforts to portray a country which is under siege and has been ruined. >> host: bob weil, we don't cover many novels on booktv, but we have covered this author, winston groom, several times. >> guest: well, this is his first major novel since forrest gump. it's based on years of research, essentially anyone who loves trains will love it. any american history of the early 20th century. and he a takes you through -- he takes you through these east

coast industrialists and barons who have to come down south to protect their property against poncho via. it's great -- poncho villa. it's great, roaring, page-turning fiction for anyone who really loves american history, wants to see the intersection of history and fiction in vivid historical characters. >> host: bob weil is publisher at liveright. those are some of the books coming out by that company. [inaudible conversations] >> good afternoon, welcome to