that i have been advised that nothing. but you're exactly right. in retrospect i would've been better advised to say to the best of my knowledge on the basis of what i've been told. which was in fact the basis of my testimony. >> i'm out of time but this is what i would like you to do. this is an important matter. i was one of the folks who wanted this hearing. think this is really important. and you should be able to provide us information. the congress should have all that information. so what i would like for you to do for me is you use the word mistake. that is the lowest level -- there is a mistake, there's reckless disregard for the truth, there is a deliberate indifference and then there is intense. i would be curious what you think the proper punishment is for each level of that -- the other thing i need you to do is to the extent you relied upon other people's counsel are what they told you, i need to know who they were.

this committee, and i would think you would want us to interview every single witness that has access to information that would be relevant. >> i think you have interviewed them all are ready. >> so you cannot think of a single person that this commissioned interview that we have not already interviewed. >> that's my knowledge at this time that you interviewed. >> i i don't know the names of all the 50. the people who had advised me throw the case you have interview. >> would you do me the courtesy that you make sure the record is complete. because that is when we have to make the decision and i'm giving you the opportunity under the heading of due process to make sure that every bit of information you think should be considered is in fact in the hands of this committee. >> well. i would would just note and without going into detail there's a lot of information and misinformation and misinterpretation that is in the hands of the committee.

if there were going to be a full hearing i would have the opportunity to explore that and we be able to cross-examine witnesses and will be able to provide you not just the allegations been made but the facts on both sides with each site having the opportunity. the impact of the facts. you should hear should hear from the inspector to general directly. is he so confident it was an honest mistake by two employees and not purposeful? >> that that is what i'm asking. give me a witness list. i can't cross-examine them until we have examined them. >> that's correct. i would be happy to provide you the witnesses and information this committee would need to be able to actually proceed accordingly. as noted, that would be if the committee decided it wanted to go to full-scale impeachment process which i understand this is not. >> thank you mr. chairman. >> the time has expired. i love additional time because it was a good exchange of what

needs to happen. the chair recognizes a gentleman for california. for five minutes. >> thank you. mr. commissioner, let me begin by joining with my colleague on the other side of the island thinking you and your staff for being of great assistance to my constituents in los angeles. i have several members of the committee who have difficult situations in your staff has been very responsive. i know when you took over the irs one of the reasons why you were asked to fulfill this assignment was because of your history of addressing organizations that were having big challenges. i wanted to know if you could describe what specific challenges the irs faced at the time he took over the organization? >> when i took over the organization first we needed to make sure the situation that led to the improper selection of people just by their names never happen again. so we pursued and as people have made recommendations over which we have control we have adopted

those. we had a substantial challenge when i started with the underfunding of the agency which still continues. in terms of implementing not only the normal tax season but also the foreign account and the affordable care ask. since then we've had the able act and the health coverage and private debt collection requirements. all of which have been basically unfunded mandates that the irs has had read we are under constant attack by organized criminals around the world trying to get access to our information. so our cyber security issues and antiquated it systems are major concern in a major attack for a. >> go ahead. >> the last thing is that we provide tax credits particularly with earned income tax credit and i have been concern from the start that we need to do everything we can to get the level of improper payments down and make sure everybody eligible participants but make sure the right amounts go out and that has been a very complicated challenge. >> with all of those challenges my understanding that the irs

has spent about $20 million and devoted about 160 hours, hundred 60000 hours to collect, review, and review, and produce over 1.3 million pages of documents to congress. with all that effort and time and pages, were these primarily related to the 5o1c3 issue? >> these are all related to the six investigation. >> so are those numbers accurate? in terms of the amounts? >> basically is $20 million, we've had 250 people working full-time or part-time doing our best to respond as quickly as we could to congressional request. >> so how did all of that time and money assist the irs in addressing the number of challenges that you laid out? >> the best it would do and i hoped it would do in some ways better than it has is to try to assure people that we understood

the nature of the problem which the ig had reported on six months before i started we would have a basis for trying to solve that problem. i think we have done and taken on the recommendation anybody's head. i think it's critical going back to the issue about confidence in the irs and government where people have said to believe that they're going to get treated fairly. we don't care if they belong to one party or another, whether they go to church or don't go to church, who they voted for, with their political beliefs are. they should be treated the same way as anyone else. all of that background is not relevant to us at all. >> when the whole controversy was taken place i found it interesting, concern over conservative organizations because i'm very familiar with the number of liberal organizations that felt they received extra scrutiny beyond what was appropriate by the irs. one of the problems here in general is the time it takes for the agency to process

applications for tax-exempt status. in recent years especially after citizens united the agency was overwhelmed by applications received for c3 and c4 status. i want to know how you address this problem and is there currently a backlog? >> presently presently there's no back log for c4 application and now takes an average of 83 days to go through. c3's we had a backlog of 65,000 applications when i started. we applications when i started. we have streamlined the process for small charity applications and allow them to get through in a matter of weeks rather than nine or 12 months. there is no backlog. our goal is for the complicated c threes to get them out within 270 days and we meet that. for c4's most get handled very quickly under expedited processing. >> is. >> are you still getting a flood of applications and can you give an an example of how things are streamlined? >> at this point, we get, we have about 1.5 million

tax-exempt organizations. 75% or c3. only about 5% of c4's. the majority c4's are garden clubs and local groups. every year clubs and local groups. every year we get a couple thousand c4 applications. and as i say the average time for processing is 83 days. >> thank you. my time is up. >> he recognized the german from utah. >> thank you in your opening statement you said that you had instructed people in writing to preserve their records. could you provide the committee and the oversight committee a copy of those emails? >> would be delighted. i think we said i did not personally send an e-mail. >> you didn't. >> will go back and look at the record. if there is in the emails asking people to preserve those documents we would like to see this because we don't have those. do standby all your previous congressional testimony?

>> i noted that if i knew then what i know now i would've testified in different way. >> what in your previous testimony needs to be clarified, altered or updated? >> while i tried tried to make that clear. clearly at the time i testified i was advised that in fact all evidence is being preserved pursuant to the orders that were not. since then it is clear that obviously some tapes were erased which is a mistake. they said that at the time that if i were testifying again i would say. >> part of the problem that we have is that you have never clarified your testimony. this is the first time we've ever heard you say mistake. this is the first time you said

that you provided essentially false testimony. this way i read it. when you set on june 20 of 2014 quote come since the start of this investigation every email has been preserved, nothing has been lost, nothing has been destroyed", was that a mistake or was it false? >> it was in on a statement on the basis of what i knew. as congressman gotti said i would bend better advise if i would've said i would been better advise if i would've said on the basis of what i've been told. >> but you told us in a hearing on july 23, you told mr. jordan that you learned in april that these emails were missing. >> kept understand there's two sets of emails. the emails i knew were missing in april 2014 were from the lowest learner hard drive crash. no one knew until 2015 about the erasing of tapes in martin's work. when i testified in june. the committee nora. >> where you testifying that since the start of the investigation nothing has been lost, nothing has been lost, nothing has been destroyed? >> at the time a testimony the testimony was about the lowest learner crash. >> but you also testified a few weeks later that you know in april there is a problem. in fact kate devol, your senior person in february but you said you personally knew in april and you came before congress and he gave the definitive statements. >> if you look at the timing of

it you had the report from us on the entire production system and the lowest learner hard drive. >> but what you said was false. >> was a true or false we say? >> it was true as far as i knew. but in april you said you knew in april they were missing email. >> yes. and i and i filed a report. >> how can you simultaneously save that you know they are missing emails in april d this investigation every e-mail has been preserved. >> because lowest learner's emails were lost in 2011, long before the investigation started. and that started. and that hearing was about the lowest learner hard drive crash. >> let me ask you another quote. true or false. we confirmed that the backup tapes from 2011 no longer existed because they had been recycled pursuant to the irs normal policy. on july 23 you said quote, confirmed means that somebody went back and looked and made

sure that in fact any backup tapes that had been existed had been recycled. is that true or false? that was true in my belief at the time. >> who went back and looked. >> i was told the it department. >> told by who? >> i was told by people. >> where these people? it was the deputy chief information officer whom you interviewed and said to me that they had looked at they are confident that in fact i asked is there anyway to get tapes and he said they've all been recycled. >> but nobody went back and look. in fact mr. kimes who is the head of the deputy there of treasury inspector general said the best we can determine through this investigation, they simply did not look for those e-mails. so for the 1000 that we found on the backup tapes we found them because we look for them ". how is it that you spend $20 million, 250 full-time people i knew never look for

them according to the inspector general. then you testify that you went back in fact and confirmed. that is false. >> that is what i was told at the time in my understanding of the time. >> when did you inform congress that this was your view now. when did you tell congress you are wrong? >> when the ig reported in 2015 i subsequently had a hearing with the senate finance committee about it and i testify. in fact a publicly stated a response to the issues that it was a mistake mistake for those tapes to be erased and i testified. >> we know is a mistake but they were erased after a duly issued subpoena. that is where we have a fundamental problem. you issued 66000 summons and subpoenas each year. you know how to dish it out but you don't have to take it. so we issue is subpoena we

expect you to comply. when you destroyed documents that are under subpoena somebody has to be held accountable for that. >> and that starts with you. you provide false testimony to this committee you provided false testimony to the government reform committee and you should be held accountable to that. >> i'm about 30 minutes more questions mr. sherman but i will you'll back. >> we thank you and recognize the gentleman from louisiana mr. >> i will just pick off were my good friend from utah left off and let us conversation about being held accountable. you don't know me, but i did criminal defense for a while and i was a state representative. and in louisiana i watched many people get indicted and go to jail for the misuse of nonprofit funds. in her testimony who say that one of the important things that the irs is for people to feel

that they will be treated fairly and it doesn't make any difference who they are, one organization or what political party they belong to. let me tell you there are a bunch of people including me that think that the justice system is rigged for those who are privileged and those who are rich. so for the people i have seen go to jail for misappropriating 2000, 3000, 5000, 8000, we have an indictment that is pending right now. the question becomes, how can someone take money that belongs to a nonprofit to satisfy a personal judgment and that not be a misappropriation of the nonprofits funds? >> i don't know the details all i can say is that the law is clear, an organization cannot

use its assets to benefit anybody who is closely associated with the organization. and to pay off a personal judgment would be a benefit to a person, not an organization. >> whatever you use to not pursue charitable purposes or benefit anyone associated with that the law says it is not a lot. >> let me just say this. and i was not even going to bring that up. i think today is a very unfortunate day but it signals what this congress has been about. and why our approval rating is so low and why our reputation is the do-nothing congress. we do do something, we grandstand grandstand in showboat on a regular basis. this judiciary committee in this room, weeks ago after casteel and elton sterling were killed by law enforcement i beg for a

public hearing on the issue because i really think that the public deserves it and i think if we don't do it we're going to have blood on her hands. well, well, unfortunately police officers were killed. this week we have two more incidents for two people were killed in an incident with law-enforcement. two people lost their lives with an incident with law-enforcement. were not talking about it. talking about a fragile country. were talking about fragile people, and we are ignoring a humongous issue. because because we are talking about impeaching you. in louisiana we just had 7,000,000,000,000 gallons of water dumped on baton rouge and the surrounding areas, justin benders we lost 60 share of car cars, 50 police cars, we have law-enforcement that is dismantled but were not having the hearing about how we help

them get back up because there is a pending elton sterling decision that has to come out. and how do we protect american citizens and how do we keep the community safe when that decision comes up because we know it's coming? but again were talking about impeaching you. with 50 something, i don't know hundred days left in our term. we keep grandstanding while america is burning. there's some who would rather talk about : can't predict outstanding for the national anthem then to talk about people losing their lives. by the hands of law-enforcement. this is the judiciary committee. we don't even acknowledge, were not even talking about the fact that we're losing law-enforcement officers. we don't even have enough bulletproof vest for the sheriffs in the united states of america but were talking about

impeaching you. we just had police officers and sheriffs gunned down in dallas and baton rouge but they don't have police vests and were talking about impeaching you. somewhere, somehow you have to say, what are these guys thinking? what are they doing do they not realize that we have a crisis in america and were talking about impeaching you? it's laughable at its best if it wasn't so sad that all of a sudden this becomes the biggest priority that we have. mr. chairman, i would just again urge and i want to be on the record every time we talk that we need a public hearing so that people understand how serious we are taking the policing in america issue. because again, the people don't

understand we're taking it serious they will continue to take it in their own hands. people that are mentally disturbed will do on imaginable things and it is all on us if we do not get together and talk about it. with that, i will you'll back. >> i think the think the gentleman and recognize the gentleman from texas. >> thank you i ask unanimous consent to enter into the record the gao report from july 2015 internal controls for exempt organization selection should be strengthened. critical that mr. juran talk about the irs is not fixed the targeting problem. >> without objection. >> i appreciate my friend from louisiana pointing a the grandstanding that is kind of what i felt about the city and that occurred on the house floor and my friends across the isle refusing to recognize that radical islamists that were with

us and instead they talk about guns, talking about looking forward to about the grandstand pressure cookers and needing to make them illegal. this hearing hearing is about whether or not mr. -- you committed such acts as should cause to be removed from office. it's already been mentioned that you have testified, that you are made aware problems associated with learners emails the same month that they discover the gap and you had withheld that information and not disclosed it for four months until june 13, 2014. during that time he testified before congress were tied. i would ask you during those four times he testified, after you learned about the problems with ms. learners e-mails, did it cross your ride and all that perhaps you should disclose that

that there are problems with ms? >> if i could correct the record , i testified honestly. i learned about the lowest learner email crash in april. between april and the time we provided the report to congress i did not have a hearing. the hearings in june were about the lowest learner hard drive crash. i've also stated in the recent did not immediately report that crashes because i instructed people to see how many e-mails from the crash. we could recovered. we recovered 24000. in retrospect it created aggravation on the part of some congressmen. in april when i was advised by and if i had to do it again i would would advise congress that we had a hard drive crash. >> is it your opinion that once he testified before congress, if you learn information that makes your price statements not

completely true, that you have no obligation to come forward, send a letter, letter, send an e-mail or message that you have now learned things are in your opinion should you just wait until you are asked and if you're not ever asked you have no need to disclose. what is your opinion? >> i didn't wait until i was asked. we produced a full report to all of the committees about the process. but the process. but as i said, when i learned of it in april, it would've been easier if i simplifies the congress. >> since that time. >> when he found out there is problems did you know lowest learner used a blackberry? that she had a handheld device? >> i did not. that blackberries in the hand of the ig. >> did it cross your mind that she may have had a portable device that was used to send or receive email. speemac. high.

high was not analyzing her activity. >> you know there are requests from her emails and it never crossed your mind that she might have them on a personal device that she carried? that never crossed your mind? did it cross your mind that there is a facility in martinsburg, west virginia where storage was kept? to that cross your my? >> no. i was as focused as the agency was in reviewing all the e-mails we could. to get each hard drive out of the computer. >> when you are asked under oath about the existence of e-mails, there really is an obligation to learn about the e-mails and where they are where they exist. let me read from you, i hope you're familiar with internal revenue manual, you are hopefully. >> yes. >> thank you.

this was at a january 20 third, 201425.1.1. two. fraud is .2. fraud is deception by misrepresentation of material facts, or silence when a good faith expression. i would submit to mr. koski and that you have had ample opportunities over the last two years to disclose thinks inquiry. it appears you might have what we call willful ignorance you don't have to come up and testify about what actually happened. it's hard to believe that you never made any inquiry about the potential places that ms. learners controversial emails that may have been lost, may not have been lost, where they might become. it shocks my conscious that the head of the irs would not think to ask any questions other than, can anybody find her e-mails? you require so much more from taxpayers did we give you

290 million more dollars and then you start closing local tasks assisted offices for taxpayers like in longview, texas. the excuses that we have our budget cut. yes, this year you got to 90 million more. and then your closing offices to hurt taxpayers. it. it looks like there is a problem with the management at the irs. i see my time has expired. >> the time has expired. the chair recognizes the gentleman from new york for five minutes. >> thank you for your presence and for your service. the chief sponsor of the impeachment resolution that resulted in this hearing is republican representative john

fleming from louisiana, zechariah? >> is my understanding that he is one of the proposers. and congressman fleming is currently a candidate for the united states senate, is that right? >> is my understanding. i'm learning from congress from gouty. >> are you aware that congressman fleming is currently running television ever size part of this campaign? and they claim that the head of the irs, that would be you, order 24000 e-mails you race? >> i am aware of that. >> but the facts have already been established i think that the emails were inadvertently wipes by two low-level employees comes that right? >> that is correct. >> these employees work the midnight shift, zechariah? >> yes. >> they work the midnight shift at a facility in the booming metropolis known as martinsburg, west virginia, is that right question what. >> that mark. >> that is correct. >> now the treasury inspector general is republican, is that right? >> that's right.

>> he issued a report on june 30, 2015 which concluded, quote that no evidence was uncovered that any irs employee had been directed to destroy or hide information is that correct? >> that's correct. >> the republican-led senate finance committee has uncovered no such evidence, true? >> that's correct. >> the department of justice conducted an independent investigation and also concluded that no irs employee from top to bottom had been directed to destroy or hide information is that correct? >> that is correct. >> this is not a legitimate impeachment hearing. this is a political charade, it is a sham, it is a hollywood style production. the outcome has already been predetermined, the script has already been written, the witness has already been labeled a bag i because in any will

hollywood style production there must be a villain and who better than the commissioner of the irs? here's the problem. the founding fathers of this nation gave to this house the power of impeachment as an extraordinary remedy. only to be used in serious circumstances. . .

>> the. >> of the american people i yield back. >> mr. chairman, thank you

for being here your testimony suggests as was just indicated that impeachment is improper and you have many exhibits to that effect and you are aware of anyone on your level being impeached in the past induced david a. hughes sent us a letter from college professors and law professors that say that our reason for this exercise of self restraint by that house is that in our constitutional system primary responsibility for supervising executive branch officials reside with the president not with the congress. but the question we have to answer is what happens when doc president is not exercising the supervision over somebody like you?

so maybe the question is a weather if impeachment is proper but why after all of these disturbing instances lack of transparency or fitness to serve you feature incompetent least serve as commissioner. this may not have a long history of impeachment at your level but certainly we have a long history of officials that your level subject to the resignation before lesser offenses than when you have perpetrated. xx no michael brown quick. >> du know what happened following his mismanagement of katrina? >> nonspecific leave but i don't know. >> key resigned from office. are you familiar with former

d.a. administrator michele? to know what happened after agent misbehavior under her watch? she resigned from office. are you aware of what the former owe p.m. director followed the act taxed by foreign governments? >> she resigned. >> with the resignation of secrecy avid - - seekers service director over fast ban . as. i will not spend my entire time providing you examples of your lovell who have resigned based on failure, but i will suggest how would this not a dereliction of duty. your boss shin told you

accountable there is only one private ranches that can do that. -- one branch but the dispute over 24,000 e-mail's were destroyed during your tenure? >> i do not. >> to dispute that after destruction it was your intention to comply with the request and that you were planning to turn over all relevant female communication? to make that was after they knew about the erasure. >> it was testified after the nobody knew. >> was anybody fired to the destruction of evidence? >> i ended did the one-year restoration. >> was anybody fired a

quick. >> it was an honest mistake on their part. >> no substantive action as been taken soulfully i will do what you last tested do commit judge you on your overall record. inability to successfully preserving information requested in so-called that the testimony clearly demonstrates your overall record is of extreme negligence. has your department collects or was there intentional deception grex we should need these hearings because humans it commissioner koskinen should design to him properly carry higher duties in failure to bring transparency tearing what was promised. i yield back lifetime. >>

>> i have an overall record at that irs to make significant progress across the board. but on the specific issue i don't think those on this mistakes made are the grounds for either resignation or serving and her careful and the expectation is the head should resign. >> the gentle man from rhode island. >> thing to commissioner for your service. clearly no evidence the charges have any validity whatsoever. without bipartisan system no way would bring up congress'

search any in-state -- statement. they each conducted their own investigation of this so-called the targeting scandal. although they uncover problems no evidence to support criminal activity or politically motivated behavior. it misled congress to obstruct a congressional investigation each found no evidence whatsoever to his bed $20 million devoting more than $150,000 will dash hours for 1.3 million documents that common-sense proposals may heads nothing

but time after this sure raid. what about the political contribution of the charitable foundations? remic is a legal or illegal for political foundation to make a contribution? rebel law is clear any organization do have to be in business the seafloor it is as long as the primary purpose. >> and that political contributions made? >> in deciding the aisle lovell of punishment if it

is an honest mistake or whether someone did that intentionally to cover the p. would treat those differently? >> as with any audit we hear from the taxpayer to make their responses accordingly. >> made by the trumpet foundation $25,000 with up political action committee shortly before she decided not to pursue criminal charges or any other investigation, on the filing of the foundation they put instead an organization which is wichita organization that they never made a contribution that sounds like and justice for all but in the effort to cover up the illegal political constitution to

impose a more severe penalty >> my goal today is to insert questions but hypothetical start to get difficult. with the extraordinary coverage is somebody reviewing this if they initiate a review but we never talk about the status of any candidate in to get referrals from members of congress suggesting we looking into companies are charitable organizations as

you write to us all other we don't take the action. >> but my constituents with some frequency are pledged our hold as the extended period of time. can you talk about how they reduce thou waiting time address the impact. >> with 290 billion rehired from tax filing service it went up from 30% at best 70% because the upper righted amounted money was provided less than half the lie

unplayable fakes share level of tax care services periphery done yemeni we don't have enough people to dancer? to refer them to wait for the commissioner in have congress to blame to known for great is to react. >> i tried to make it to her. we do the best we can to provide taxpayers in this direct croatian between the amount of funding and the service will offer the last six acts the way are constrained redid appreciated 200 claimants and annuity would support

but the chair recognized the to the man from texas. in response to a couple of questions but all i know is the five people here resigned. there are reviews cent cut no wish resigned of but i don't know that if i could not tell you the details of the way if i did pdf. >> utah about the tool gentlemen and the tapes and to repeatedly said it was an honest mistake.

were they aware of the order to preserve data? >> that i g investigative report said they were labelled as jump in debate already picked out some earlier with their understanding they were job with the label. >> so you testify you got the word out not to destroy any evidence. >> the word was already out where but with uh e-mail in 2013 and it shouldn't have happened. this e-mail then i get to

people never physically destroyed so as to get those copies of the bills and how they are distributed to. but if we were to get an order from congress not to destroy evidence, we will pull a hard drive of all the computers because it isn't technically this blair violation of the evidence will re of this year you're entitled to a jury instruction telling them that they're the worst. >> i have been an -- illuminated it takes the intentional discussion.

and i will take a step back talking about articles of impeachment to hear constituency that all you guys do is we done your chest? that congress has a limited number of remedy? so congress is out of what they see you have the power of the purse but david -- sailed not pick up the appropriation bills we are forced to do continuing resolutions. you are shutting down the government. the power of the purse is basically gone.

what error calder was held in contempt of congress the last week brian refuse to show up in the justice department doesn't do anything. and impeachment is in there and one of the reasons is that the justice department and the abominable administration are failing to cooperate with congress. rather than being the people's lawyer turning now to be the administration lawyers. and you may be the victim of this. deal have suggestions out to get more cooperation of of people for congress? >> water everywhere doing as has been noted on their website, 20 executives

should be removed or a leave to you have pictures through 18th so i believe they have been successful 90 percent of the time. but to get the public behind the site appreciate your courage to come here to testify but i really and disappointed that this happened under your watch. >> without objection could we have an initial 30 seconds? you ask a question that chairman and i would like to pose to the commissioner in a slightly different way. can you please provide to this committee any written communication that you or

anyone else made instructing employees to the congressional subpoenas? >> we would be happy to do that. >> >> thank you for being here with durations much of what has been ousted reacts diapause as in the area. i represent 770,000 constituents all have opinions about something. but not many resonate because it impacts everyone in this hypocrisy the way they expect and does not

hold themselves to the very standard. and as a former businessman but i announced to comply with the irs. if the irs showed upon my a doorstep with information and i said the server crashed, astoria don't think they would be as lenient with me as with the government has bed with the irs sinn such a circumstance for ago this angers people and with a tub to oversee to

make sure the government runs properly and my frustration is and operate the one we do have it but to take a lashing and the lead and they have done their job. but is very frustrating for me i will not except it with those targeting of various organizations with the substantial amount of backup why they have been destroyed as well. ordinarily there is transix research if i am running these operations that every

possible remedy for can you tell us if the irs would review the back dictates or any information? with some hard drives to handle blood e-mail's? all of these things come dishy have more than one?

the hard drives in two be responsive to the increase. that is how we end up with 1,300,000 pages. and to provide 24,000 from the period when i was advised we need to look at every buddies she communicated with it was as somebody else as well somebody help me find the e-mail's. >> i would immediately say find my e-mail's.

>> and what she said to the i t department to say my hard drive looks like it does not work it has crashed will you fix it? it was reviewed and a center a note back to say we cannot find any e-mail's not they said the only way is if you send it out anywhere with experts. but ironically there are provide did everybody to the house in 2015 it was not a conscious effort but had asked for help to try to come and fix it. >> thanks to the commissioner for being here and having in extern very career with the executive

chairman of freddie mac mac, director of omb coming in charge of year 2000 for the entire country that dc work. >> and not sure they agreed that one and we have posted arkansas learned to both challenges for your expected chairman the president and ceo of freddie mac lied under oath or repeatedly misstated by the subordinates with the mortgage crisis.

>> if he lied under oath to congress with uh disciplinary action. did when doing the investigation into the scandal that he had lied or misstated key facts or otherwise uninformed what would you have done what. >> if you are performing in good faith. >> we will call that gross incompetence. un aware of the facts what would you have done? >> in his of liked it intentionally then do we have a serious question and not aware but a more recent set of facts senator warren

was screaming ahead several times she screamed he needs to resign. this is not a situation recover the up berger everytime we spent days significant amount to provide the interim issues and that we had. all i know is larry and his reforms. that people knew two or three years ago? >> to the best of my and knowledge stook we have heard this is an investment and mission into an the irs

used in the political school friday to solve the apollo it got a lot of porsche either because you printed or underwear with the support and its word doing that the head of the organization would have been fired or resigned so for them to say this is a charade or a game ball what should i coho tell my constituents on friday that our afraid of the irs and disgusted?

but we have to say we have to expect some level of incompetence but what do i tell my constituents how this investigation plays out ? ranked number elide the body carries -- covered up in the basic issue is improper designation by their aims has stopped. notwithstanding be issued that there are three that have litigated we are resolving those. the answer is taking from every taxpayer and fairly. >> and the private sector ahead of the organization do you agreed? >> i think they would.

>> thanks again for your time and i don't. >> if you disks but after all of those pushing over the last year my concern is if i am worse it will create a terrible precedent that people can make allegations that are not subject to a full investigation to charge that there were threats of impeachment but we need to

demonstrate, into public service and you have an obligation to spend taxpayer money to do your best and perform well. kent:build lists there is 89 and 20 that they have targeted that they have left part of you cannot meet those expectations then you should not be there but the total record is the irs and employees made tremendous. >> and now we recognize sensenbrenner for five minutes. first of all thank you for coming. you have been able to present your side of this story in the articular manner. i want to make an observation before a ask a

couple of questions. if this administration has a career or history of basic keeley ignoring with the constitutional oversight responsibility that includes to delay things and not having full disclosure and in the case of lowest lerner who was cited for contempt the u.s. attorney announced he would not present the contempt citation to the u.s. district court 30 minutes before he left office following his resignation. in my opinion that is impeachable offense. thirty minutes after he committed it there is nothing that congress could do.

we have to look at ourselves and what we should do is allow the council to go directly into u.s. district court. >> digest review with cns but those would be resolved rather than having go through the roadblock of the justice department. that being said, i am very curious who loses senior executive service develop a refutation when she was working to be put in in

evidence but what is the up process to change personnel from one agency to another? who initiates' that or signs off beside from the member the was supposed to be transferred. >> you are right at least with the irs if we have an opening we will advertise publicly we will private-sector executives to have to qualify. when dey but there is the separate group but made a rash rendition the the debt

of we are the employees for the chief counsel the recommendation in our case right now are the two deputy commissioners and the chief staff they interviewed them. >> title think it was consonants that lois lerner left where she was from where she went in the. faster be involvement and congress from the political transfers per move but all of us to work for the government are supposed to engender and increase the public trust government

institutions that isn't going very well. players sold in my shoes to represent 715,000 people of wisconsin. how do i tell my constituents they should increase their trust in the i rs and what happened. >> they have reviewed the quiet -- ig recommendations for training before elections in created a risk-management operation where now i talk to 22,000 employees in one of my pictures is everybody hast to be arrests manager or

raise their hand if things are not going as they should . you tell them we are committed that situation was intolerable and should never happen again. that even with constrained artist over 1 million this year. this system will not work. i wonder who i talked to the wrong way? does anybody know what belong to this organization? they should be comfortable they don't care who they are or their political beliefs or who they voted for if they hear from us is because of their application or return and somebody else had the same question they would hear from us as well. the system will not work and i understand the reason i took the job is that the

mistakes that were made the entire row bowl operation to hundred 50 million independent taxpayers and be confident they will be treated the matter who they are. behalf to know that old bill read the proof is in the pudding that we do treat everyone the same way and treated fairly is our obligation. >> commissioner when the short term of office expired quick. >> november 9th or 12th of 27 teen. >> whoever then-president is can decide to make a change

igo what do fill this out with my term but. >> when you say you serve at the pleasure bev their presence announced u2 step aside. bayou are now going to offer to step aside unilateral be. correct? >> for the record we did have been hearing in this committee and you were invited to come to the first hearing by. >> as i explained plywood be delighted to come anytime on relatively short notice to be here today. >> a1 to locate your testimony there is a lot of talk that is things you have said in over the course. >> but how does that go with

the d.c. circuit opinion and the court rejected that? they said you have not ceased the contact you and have chosen to suspend the were free to attend and it is rolling against the irs. do we the ig reviewed this matter and agreed to age dash terminated suspended efforts. future issues.

>> but there is no documentation. translator: aquino. >> given to all people with regard to this matter and we will share that with you. >> but you have not proven to the court that you will not return to the offending ways. >> they cannot speak for the justice department that we have provided all oversight committee with the notion. >> have to go to court. >> but that was rejected to be fair that that puts

people in a catch-22 because you say you will violate their rights but then with deep litigation then use and we will continue until the case is over in the core thought that was unacceptable. but you have committed this subpoenas issued that the irs did not comply and and you did to falsified -- testify falsely it because nothing has been destroyed and as we have established the two months before that there were tapes that were destroyed to also testified the irs confirmed a the backup tapes along very existed.

i remember trilled -- drilling down that somebody went and checked that wasn't true because they destroyed 422,000 fated find some that were an existence. you also testified that your confirmation hearing you believe in transparency with those problems as soon issue new about that which you haven't succeeded and it was a mistake. also the irs went to great lengths to provide congress with the material requested. >> this is why i ask, nobody in in your organization ever went in has complained it cost to provide information in the past.

but in fact, that would take imitative gas to get there and back but the inspector general, even though you said you went to great, and nobody for organization had ever gone to retrieved any backup tape psst wet. >> we went to great lengths to respond to the request. >> but it did not involve getting na car driving 76,000 miles one dash 76 miles? that was too far swy will end with this. there have been disputes i don't think that is the standard. but he was right talking about political fences or gross neglect and they must be examined and the irs had

dead duty to provide the information and he preached to display candor in front of congress but have you investigated you would have known about your duty and gross negligence. >> the gentleman from texas. i want to make sure that i summarized uh testimony. some b-1 to make sure we're summarizing what is the line you are watch. >> and you have to

acknowledge those villiers under your watch? >> we produce all documents that we have produced nearly 300,000. >> we've knowledge failures that taught -- testify accurately under oath oath, specifically yourself. >> correct it was on the basis of what we knew. >>. but truthfully what you know, and i have not testified that would not be truthful one but at the time and had close to 430 hearings. >> in node produced today -- speel those? >> that was not true? >> at that hearing we have

the discussion we may have to go pick up but the irs preserved. >> i did not know that but it was not accurate. in the congressman asked you if nothing was lost or destroyed was not true. >> and light of those failures hillary can preserve documents and testify accurately a hope you'll appreciate why was for coke's and backed up to

being incidental. but to be clear by the department of justice with this administration unfortunately does not carry much weight with the american people not since the attorney general handed out get out of jail free cards. but let me ask in the days before that investigation was closed and they hope you appreciate why they would ask that but regardless let me concede to you for purposes. >> for ordinary americans

someone the is. >> but there will be consequences the way we are set up but to be on the difference system with the different sets of rules for you can say with maximum sari and move on. to that point, since you took office to provide accountability, and to spend nearly 20 million to do that , who has been helping him all but the irs'' spanish tinge and turned to five people and they are all gone. >> we are talking about but

we will process the one has her pen to keeper from processing but the overall record be ig spend 1,000 e-mail's and 300,000 pages. so my question is who is being held accountable? >> 53 people are revising made during your watch and you would knowledge there are failures to preserve for the tank on your watch for your transgressions back. >> eight think it is a firing offense. i know if you have left. >> that the summit question.

the answer is no. >> because the three don't think anybody consciously are purposely did anything to interfere with the investigation. >> the gentleman from colorado. >> >> half a bottle and is left of what to make sure. >> you don't have ammoniac? good. there is a lot of talk about due process per car want to make sure that we have the same understanding. we go to a great loss school and you are well versed in the all wall with the federal prosecutor's work from the irs i did have to

talk to his group pont -- is simply the person charging making be different if there is scope or. >> and try to get a resolution passed. >> knowing they would recede due process. >> that is my understanding how disconnected but impeachment proceedings as starkly has held hearings there are witnesses. >> but in the charging decision of lou progress is the answer of comprised not to the trial there is a whole different set of process but.

>> for somebody who has received no due process, it just is not true. >> obviously there are a grand referred to. mind understanding of the processing is the story the way the house has dealt with the committee is day have set up preliminary hearings to make of resolution authorizing the committee to proceed with a full investigation and. >> now you know it is in response to school to the judiciary committee than authorized to holding in the marathon. we disagree.

>> you are from marathon's cramp with one '03 and the people that work for you also. >> i not it finale years to make beheaded beach agency shall make compressor records to have a duty to preserve records of documentation is that your understanding? >> for the archives. >> dave may contain the essential transactions. and you understand that his e-mail's were essentials transaction said the agency. >> some of those are not official records. >> but hurry males were important to determine what

worries central nobody went through the e-mail stewardess tried. >> that is the of statutes that the eldest as the head of the federal agency. >> nobody and that iras intended to violate any statutes spirit there is no criminal penalty that defines which records that need to be archived. those three elements. you violate when you consciously underside. the perfect it with the national archives but there

are other firm but i will yield to the chairman. >> without objection your recognize for additional time and ohio you are recognized. >> these two guys working the midnight shift, where the employees of the irs and is that accurate word down to birdie thousand after a

friend he of the tobacco and the media was recycled before you informed congress? >> waited two months after i learned of the hard drive crash died develop and build the erasure of the tapes until long after the hearings. >> two separate issues one is the hard drive crash the other is erasure because we can look at everybody be

communicated with that that time to see how many we can capture 24,000 from the time .. in retrospect i should have passed the congress while we we're doing that search. commissioner, you have a lot of free time and we think you for sending. i want to point out to submit additional written questions to you for the record and we would ask the roof with the questions through make sure we get those as quickly as we can. the queue.

without that i will get his upon aid -- hong.

>> [inaudible conversations]

is owed money since 2008 that this last month time he gave money to the trump foundation since peaking given no money to them or anybody else he claims he has given millions but i am looking for a vince if anybody did get none. >> is bent on the federation

but then the golf course pet pays nothing to fisher house but instead the foundation pays $100,000 instead but his club had obligation that he already paid off. >> if you read the washington post today, the portrait what is this about to acquire. >> affair are to cases. bad charity auctions bought large one at 20,000 and one at 10,000 in they are paid

using the foundation money. that means that if the charity pays for those items they must be used for charitable purposes. so where do they go? but you were offset by charities. >> we'll just days away and a lot of questions about the clinton foundation coming up monday evening and now questions about the trump foundation is one day gave the other? >> they are different.

in the moral understanding but clinton foundation is very big and employs more than 2,000 people and it does real charitable work. but the question is did she makes use but somehow insult this suspect the work that it does is true but with the trauma foundation is a much smaller enterprises does not employ a anybody but it passes the of money on the question is the moral responsibility he is very wealthy and one said to a been known and made a big deal out philanthropic he is but he doesn't seem to feel any response ability to give his own wealth back for philanthropy and general he would do other people pay

for the lines he made that reference 0:00 p.m. other people's money. before the veterans and i was before that you cannot find evidence you were using anything than other people's money. >> thank you. >> we were faced with heavy inflation over 12 percent and potential unemployment.

during the last 24 months returned the economy around with five and a thousand more records and more than three months ago the 1980 debate with former california's governor and proven to mendez made his decisions as a result but if they are released on will

pay down the national debt and put medicare and social security and a lock box. >> i will dedicated to social security. one-quarter of the surplus come minders stand 1/4 on the campaign trail donald trump called the recent shooting of trompe a terrible and. >> i am like this laugh but

i am the governor of indiana. and it is my honor. [cheers and applause] i was deeply a humbled with my wife karen now my side to except this man's invitation to run and serve as the next vice president of the united states of america and the year grateful for the opportunity. at the introduction michael was kind but shorter and conservative and republican in that order. [cheers and applause]

>> isdn before you today with that belief that should this good man be elected to the highest of the office, i know that he believes because it has greater capacity to strengthen and unite this nation that we will never stand it. but me begin by thanking each one of you for the ministry's you have in this state and nation the way you pour your lives and your faith 50 people all across the great state. thanks for your leadership. [applause] >> stan before usair republican but follow politics as a democrat and as deeply inspired by two men in particular kennedy

and dr. martin luther king, jr.. dr. king's life and his sacrificed but if he remembers first and foremost,, a workman approved rate ibos to handle the truth. >> as we go into this campaign, we hear deeply committed to ensure that the voice of faith in america is

speech - - free to speak again.

>> but i assure you this is a man of faith of the boundless potential of every american with a good education and start in life to achieve their dreams regardless of race or creed or color or urge gender. [applause] he is also a man raised on a foundation of faith in his life and in these challenging times, i can assure you that donald trump is a man who knows in'' always be in the united states that will unite us than ever divide us. [applause] chief among those is faith

that we are one nation under god indivisible with liberty and justice for all. and also we both know and me these in these challenging times thought heartbreaking headlines it the that was true for millennia that will haul themselves and pray you will again hear from and they will heal our lakes. [applause] on that foundation and as great humility but we yield of podium in a typical privilege to be able to

introduce my running mate to amanda's known him 25 years. one of the greatest promoters in the history of sports. [laughter] has agreed to come near to promote his friend baird join me to walk on don king. [applause] i. m. houma. ladies and gentleman cleveland is the best location in the nation. is my home and the leadership through jackson by a lebanese say to you as a friend to the nation, 44

years ago i brought a young man to town to save a hospital. and deal the one in townhouse and disservice black people or poor white people and his name was muhammed ali. today i can iq 44 years later.

>> sued to get a guest is the miracle n/a say that miracles happen in america. [applause] the word of i love this signaled the first this

young man named donald trump made a speech. on you ssi was a battleship from los angeles. and said that i believe there is a holding system and we will take this system apart. he is the only man in hundreds of years that has the consensus of public opinion of rejection to the government.

[applause] of. ♪ >> now all donald trump and this father that we will create a wall this system to

take it apart and make america great again. what does that mean? this is why what people to put themselves.

>> but to promote himself heard buddy was there all these different things to enter into the ring to be thin to sack of government called the way of her threats we the people. translator: to. [applause] there are 14 million people later. and after meeting 17 opponents we will even figure 60 not to brag. but now is the of nominee. just understand the party

does not want him, the system does not want him. the lying politicians don't want him. and you have to understand he is here by the will of the people. [applause] and the gods who is in all things. all things. so i love you. for a man walking in inhibits issues led if i was carrying you or walking with you he said only see one set of footprints. >> god was carrying you. but the white woman in this category the white woman and

the slaves and the people of color. and did that have the right and still doesn't. those are the left out and donald trump says no. we go back to where every bit the clients but to pervert every white woman should just if.

>>. >> guest: to find every way that you can. we are treating the fax, not the cause for of ucla and and and when he says why he has to demonstration to dam the white woman who walked out of the house with the

feeling white men and we must put him in the office to give her a chance. for america to operate where america was founded. a new nation conceived did liberty dedicated to the proposition all men and women are created equal. [applause] so i hope m. very proud and feel honored and privileged have the opportunity to speak to you wherever the president because the system is the enemy. not donald trump when they talk about the you can see that they fed him like no other person is above world, relax. his genius lies in his ability to be successful.

he is up business manual back to him like a politician but they do. because we made something out of it. every day they would condemn >> key does the same thing for our country with leaders around the world like i am a leader we don't care about political correctness. [cheers and applause] that is why i will walk with him and talk with him and plead to understand the system is the problem he is.

>> this is what america any insult truck. you have to understand that

but if you deal with the reality, i have learned a lesson because i had the all slides of the aisle