and donald trump says i alone can do it it is very much playing into that same fear about jackson. but if you go back to 1964 or 1968 and '64 stop gold water unit similar to the never trump unit equally as successful.

in 1968 george walls will a third party candidate is running an playing on same resent of donald trump is playing on, and testifies considered a joke at first. the way many people did donald trump. and so changed the race even though he didn't win. changed conversation in the race in the way, obviously, that trump has. so these are three races that are just in this book. if i feel like we can find a lot, and it's funny, obviously, trump is completely his own creator. we've never had -- we've had businessmen but never a marketer which is really what trump is running president say. never somebody who flew his own plane over a stadium before speaking to it his own new thing but there are after leals out there in history. >> pated some say conman but same thing about those -- past candidates can strong personalities didn't they? >> i think that's right. i think that standard now,

though, we can date it back to 1960 although the race was kind of the beginning of using advertisings techniques to settle candidates like soap which was the beginning of the idea that a candidate is being sold there. but high on jackson fixation but reason he got in to the race was in part because of the tennessee democratic republicans want a name that people could know at the top of the ticket. nobody votes by tickets anymore but back then there was cloth paper and old hickory face at the top he knew he was famous for face, who knows who the other was and trump is and that he used really in the primaries in particular with that 100%

roughly 100% name id that give him an entree that other kients of candidates could have gotten although might have tried. >> i remember george wallace from before i read your book i've been making that comparison, in fact, that there aren't enough folks who remember wallace but you wouldn't think of them because wallace is from alabama, identified with segregationist donald trump, new yorker -- [laughter] but in both cases, though, their appeal went beyond states they came from. >> that's the thing about -- >> the state and the renal. >> precisely and wallace was such a regional candidate and he would say to -- stoke grievance and play on grievance he had say to his audiences whether he was in virginia, alabama, georgia, he would say you know, they meaning the elite have looked down on us anybody from the south. and we're not going to let them do it anymore.

red light -- really making a real identification that's one of the reasons johnson and democrats weren't unhappy because they thought okay let wallace do his work down in the south and tie up richard nixon to worry about competing for votes with wallace and that will pin them down but what got them nervous and got humphrey nervous was that in the north, the suburbans worried about ride in the city and growth of the african-american population started to hone in oren will to wallace's message. they weren't in for the full segregation maybe. but it got to them through those things similar channels so when democrats saw union vote rs in the mid-webcast starting to be afield to by wallace, they started to get really nervous and that's much the same way donald trump as you say new yorker to the bone is -- suddenly playing in precincts you wouldn't maybe getsed when you first heard him talk. >> after reading your book i

realized how well jackson fits into that too. i never that you have donald trump as but ways there are similarities and, of course, jackson had war hero. donald trump fought at the military academy -- [inaudible] you know, again don't seem that similar on surface. but jackson was first -- the before him there were elites. >> absolutely, and you know, jackson fought against the system although trump did although in the system establishment capitulated to trump and didn't have to fight the final battle. so in 1824 when jackson you know there's essentially one party. and that's the challenge in 1824 is there was one party, democratic republican, federalists were pretty much shot after the war, 1812, and so the way the party picked their people was caucus. king caucus representative of the party in washington would pick nominee because there was one party meant that this was

going to be the president and jackson and others revolted against that system in much the way trump revolted against the remember when we all knew that number one 2037 number of delegates he want to get and seemed like he wouldn't he said you know the system is rigged, the people should be making the choice not delegates that's what jackson was saying that people should make the choice not this king caucus. well king caucus went ahead anyway and nominated william crawford secretary of state who was -- had a stroke and so was feeble and blind and nevertheless they nominated him and this is the last time that -- they have a caucus because it was jackson point was proved that this was just a game for insiders they picked somebody not based on merit because this crawford was so hill and based on just wire poll my favorite i love that expression not string but wire pullers, people playing the marionette one final thing

about jackson so interesting he goes into pennsylvania and basically wins a contest that's close to our primaries now. closer than all of the other kinds of contest where is he basically becomes the people's candidate and that's the first time we as you said first populous. that's you know the long line of candidates afterwards who try to do a version of the same thing. >> i remember wallace did so quell in michigan and northern states but that was a turning point, though, and led to what we later could call reagan democrats boot collar michigan voters who voted for reagan. >> that's exactly right. in fact reagan there's a -- signature ad that reagan ran in 1976 when he ran against ford, and it was in texas the important and crucial texas contest because reagan for much of that race until reagan wince in north carolina, and then they face off in texas. and there was a commercial that the reagan folks cult with a

person who said i've been a lifelong democrat, and you know, i'm going to pick ronald reagan this time in the republican -- caucus in texas. the funny thing is that person was -- in -- in the wallace company the head of the wallace campaign in texas so they're your guy. a reagan democrat but started off as a wall with last wallace democrat and allowed him to go into the convention and challenge forward. >> there you go to a different region reminds me you're talking of jfk and coal mining area so important you should point out that your book is not in chronological area because you have a different -- what the seven parts in which you focused on particular themes, and jfk is -- and that west virginia race. is under that well -- under chapter had inflection

point turning point right of break throughs people meads. jfk broke through in that statement. >> he was, and he wasser at a aa irritated that he had to and thought he was fine in west virginia and he was one of the first really to hire a pollster and put hem on payroll and work him the way we now -- >> if i got any numbers right right now 5,000 members of the -- consultant especially in 1960s, and by 1980 around 15,000? [laughter] but anyway, big growth after jfk. >> of course victory everybody wants to imitate so all of the things jfk did starting early gathering chips, in had the 56 race. hiring pollsters using tv ads, you know, having your own plane other kains have done some of these things before but he did them all in one package and money, of course. but in west virginia he's going

into west virginia he thought he was -- going to do quell in the state. but the real story about west virginia starts in wisconsin. where he -- wins in wisconsin, but it's a totally hallow victory because he's catholic, and he's framed by the press as a catholic victory so kennedy saying i'm going to prove myself in the primaries prove hi medal and connection with the voters and framed not as proof of his talents but proof to play people vote by their republican and republicans crossing to vote in democratic primary in wisconsin because of his faith so it got sod bad that kennedy brothers fought with cbs news on election night because cronkite was talking to his -- analyst on the show about the catholic question, and the kennedy calls up and said stop it. stop talking about this. a victory, for the catholic candidate. the pairms next day said kennedy won was a catholic thing so whole effort to build his prestige during primaries was

completely undercut so he had to go into west virginia to prove he could win against humphrey in state with no catholics, in fact, where one woman interviewed by teddy white at the tame said you shouldn't have a catholic president if they wanted it he would have put it in the constitution. [laughter] so -- you know, i think there were four, 5% of the state was catholic but there was a bias against catholics and so by going into west virginia, he originally tried to -- run away from the catholic questions and i don't to talk about my religion. what's more important are my policies mid-way through, he realizedded that wasn't working, and so took it head on and addressed it heads on in a way he would later in the general election same as speech to the baptist ministers. but by winning in west virginia he kind of -- put away humphrey, and that was good for him but he also put away question that catholic wouldn't win outside of the catlin enclave in wisconsin. >> we were talking earlier about

barack obama running in iowa. actually parallels to remember both of those -- event where e-s game changer and to use that cliche world. >> you're exactly right as i was thinking through you know the whole book came out of this podcast that i do and podcast must continue although i guess new stories for second volume. still working on right now, obama's victory in iowa in 2008 and you're exactly right it was here an inexperienced you know first term senator. no executive experience using primary and caucus process and david axelrod writes about it in believer that you build your prestiges in the contest so that people start to see who is presidential even though you have no executive experience in your life at all, and in iowa he not only , you know, he not only won in iowa a state that was -- basically white state for all ul intensive purposes.

but was able not just by doing that and overcoming hillary clinton with all of her advantages. was tiebl say you see i can put together something in this place that's not friendly territory to me. so yeah it's exactly like winning in west virginia and kennedy. >> he needs to build credibility by the way he was also it black. [laughter] >> right. so it means mother to live in iowa than it does if he won in district of columbia. >> exactly. >> so i want to get back to your title. the whys had whistle stop is newer than i thought it was. this was intriguing. i have to say -- you bug that memory. for i was 12, 13 years old livings in middletown, ohio, and i watch the deacts debate at a tv station i would later work for but that is different. richard nixon came to town and i got to go out there and see him on the back of the train talking to the crowds.

tell me about 45,000 people but john boehner district. republican area there in sins gnat tee, and there was -- watching nixon with a bus pass around his neck like i want that stuff. they do whistle stops line they used to. and bill clinton did rirm. >> and obama did one i feel on the way to the convention or he did i remember° -- >> you're riewght. on obama -- i remember riding on a on obama campaign and a big memory with the campaign, this one of the whistle stops he defense during primaries because -- or inaugust -- and during primaries it was when they were taking on hillary

clinton for having fabricated about snipe rs in bosnia they put together impromptu sort of talk, press -- phone call i think while we were on the train. trying to hit hillary clinton on that -- on that point so i know at least it was in. and i feel like we were going u through pennsylvania during the primaries. but it's a huge gimmick now there's no practical reason i can think of for it other than you do get a chance to touch some rural areas and that just is a -- you know when truman who i write about here in whys physical stop campaign in 1948 a lot of it was show he cared and he was masterful at it with a real first research department to tell him before he comes to a town okay you're going to know about pocatlo and get there and talk about that and people there think wow this president from

washington where we doapght think they care about us he knows about us and truman was a folksy guy the way he behaves he was one of us and kind of clumsy but he's a hardworking guy full of grit, you know, he's okay. and so that -- you know conjuring that when you go through a rural area isn't bad even though now everything you do whether it's in a closet he's on television everywhere it might as well be the in middle of new york city but paying attention to people who live outside the big cities is still like if i get a little something for that these days still. >> these -- i was speaking of truman glad to see you mentioned my newspaper -- [inaudible] one of our great historic moments but made a lot of points, though. [laughter] i'm going to try to quote you -- said what we elites are not very good about predicting.

[laughter] >> well that's one of the constant stories throughout again. jackson doesn't want to run for president he thought he was in the race just as a way to steal votes to help john quincy adams, of course, in the end two of them in the neck and neck race decided by house of representatives. he was a bitter fellow in this race so he got it wrong in '84 but pollster basically 15eud anybody has lost who was this ahead. dewey is ahead so we're not doing anymore polling, and so they didn't. and -- >> how far it was that again? >> that was in september. so two months i don't know how far ahead he was above truman but not to take opinion anymore, and then the seriesed of surveys that were done of the newsman of

the day, you know, all of them saying that dewey was going to win. brothers writing about who was going to be in the dewey cabinet and columnist most fun were columnist who wrote on monday to be published on wednesday with election day tuesday following in between. and they were so confident that dewey was going to win on tuesday that they were writing stories about his administration and so forth, so on that qowb printed on wednesday so they were, you, you know, expert this like we know about the dewey defeat headline but it was something is worse that was go through long, convoluted arguments about dewey administration like printing that headline over and over sentence after sentence after sentence, after sentence and there's that great line i guess it was joe who 15eud mr. president, the only question for the press now is how do you like your crow cook? [laughter] and there was another line -- mr. president, we're ready to

eat crow whenever you're willing to serve it. there was a lot of -- john said about debacle in 2,000 lx election they said we don't are an egg on our face we have an entire only let. so great dinner. but thank you for mentioning that chicago daily tribune was not alone in a foggy crystal ball then. polling is much more primitive then. >> it was primitive and didn't get out into presingleprecinct t that different than what we do today and even now you can be in error with -- arrogance but you can think electorate will look like this and give us most confidence that's the way it is going to shape up. but then it doesn't, and that's

why knees news is you know what surprises us. that's why there's so much of it because you know it's not -- we don't have a crystal ball. >> i was struck by one word pops up repeatedly in your book, and this is expectation -- it's all about journalist we cover that surprises god or bad and get surprised ourselves don't we? >> absolutely. and then this is not where we -- come into our finest moment which is we cover what's surprising to us and then right about our surprise as if that's news so the problem there is -- [laughter] building the pons for a campaign based on the surprise about an inaccurate assessment, and so it has something too the candidate necessarily, an you think about in you know gosh there's so many of them. i mean, 1972 must be withinning

in iowa but government does better than expect sod johnny apple writes better than expected then is goes on in new hampshire and wins again but did better than expected loses because he can't meet expectations but he also had a staffer who said when he didn't -- when he didn't win by or get about 50% in the vote he said it's a total nightmare. so she embraced the expectation in other words, there is something real about what a campaign expects to do. and if they don't meet their mark then it means that voters are note as enthusiasting as we all may have thought. but 84 heart does better. wins in iowa but heart better than expect sod that causes trouble for dale. stories go on and on, and on hillary we were talking about iowa in 2008 hingt front runner with more money and -- she's expected to do well in iowa. comes in third, barely third behind edwards but third.

howard dean supposed to be democratic nominee on both of the major once at the too many. sorry u.s. news. but "time" and "newsweek" had her on the cover sorry coming up and howard dean on cover and come in third 18% of the vote in iowa and a huge loss because of where expectations were. and hillary clinton rises in new hampshire in '92 because -- >> we'll get to that. in the basement, and yet he elevated them. but he turns a second place finish into a you know launching pad for presidency. >> using that term come back kid. come back kids. and another chapter in your book. [laughter] come back there. >> well it's funny too because usual usually somebody who gives themselves their own nickname is slightly shunned you have to earn a nickname and you know you have to be done to not only have turned a but fits nicely because here you have a second place finish.

being turned into a great victory itself is slight of hands so point that out. >> you want to have fun. ask people or who won new hampshire in '92. almost everybody -- either bill clinton or don't remember. and fall bless his heart, paul who won that race got so forgotten after that. it was remarkable says the phrase. i haven't seen effect it shall face turner donald trump lie i can ted crooked hillary blah blah bsh it is child schoolyard game. but it works. since it sticks. somebody said once he said that jeb bush of low energy. it like nonsense but shoulders got lower after that. it seemed to lose some of that energy. tmpletion that's the talent of the marketer. you know, knowing where the how

to land in expectation, not expectation but back up what had do marketers do they introduce to a need they not know before they had. now, i don't know that i need to be punched in the face so there's some talent in it not just needs you didn't have but once you realized you want it, you need it. opposed to you know, so there's an art to this it's not just a fact that stses it is something people aren't expecting so like a punch in the face and a skill for doing that. and what -- makes electorate nervous of course or people who study elect rat is the idea that person can win presidency basically based on same hand that goes into marketing. and that you know -- people used to think it's noneny when you think about political analysis pre1960s where --

they make a rational choice and look at their position and say how can i maximize my value in life or country or whatever, but they do kind of a math problem and they come up with a sum at the end, and whatever that total is, that's how they vote. and then in the 60s realized oh it tushes out that emotion plays huge role that people project thing on to candidates that have more to do it be emotional feelings in life so not an acts of reason. act of emotion and for some people that is frightening. >> yeah, i'm recalling how stevenson back in the 50s when eisenhower had first tv ad but not the first real ad campaign. but he was so new. he's having -- quaint to watch those on youtube, but stevenson i think i will not be marketed like a box of soap. [laughter] like i talk to his son. but might have changed his mind

had he realized how powerful to the tv he was at the time. >> the book about kennedy sorry the nirk son campaign is like the 8 and president has a picture of i think this is right. a picture of nixon on the front -- of some edition as a box of cigarettes. you know marketed like a product. i say that started or really one with all way, way back. >> hearting at the beginning of era. yeah and chicago admin all chicago's fault the admin chicago style of advertising moved into the presidential campaign. and that's a list of stuff that hasn't been done yet but it's a great -- it's a great beginning of the story of how candidates were sold like soap. and you know, of course we should mention that in the first until about 1840 and then even well after that, in any

candidate who participated themselves in a campaign let alone being sold by soap. even the most lighted campaign wrnght supposed to participate in because it was lack of virtue because he participateed in a campaign it meant you wanted to elevate yourself and that wasn't why you should want to be president to elevate your station but to help the country. >> on that tone by the way remarkable to me how little campaigning eisenhower did. he never ran in the primaries at all really. >> no dummy he was smart. >> when you think of modern equivalent maybe some fantastic xeample here that i'm -- i think that he's it. he's carried up by minnesota primary where they have to write in they call it minnesota miracle and so many misspellings of eisenhower, but nevertheless

you know, he was they wrote in, and got him and he won. as a result of that popular uprising essentially for him. bolt of the blue candidate like that. he, obviously, had a pretty good resumé. >>also there was a wonderful underground campaign when people had a democrat or a republican -- >> absolutely. but folks figured who is going to be a vote magnet and at madison square garden rally. >> and exactly. wonderfully used the sort of you know come on ike join the race that burnished credentials but was a campaign itself. you know, it got voters interested. about and it did everything that a campaign would want to do but didn't have candidate working on its behalf and that is not a bad way to go. you can manage if we were confecting next presidential campaign you want to do that because people get siskt

candidates that you want the candidates arrival about to be something of a piece excitement. also benefit that candidate wouldn't say to say anything which is nice because they won't offend anybody. now they have to be in a poftion not saying anything when there's a microin front of them that generates disappointment among people who hope that they're people running for president would say something of substance but if you wrnght actually running the way eisenhower wasn't nobody can be upset with you and complaint that he was a golden vessel into which people could pour their dreams and you know -- >> i told people, and your book that when had people asked him, you know, what are you -- what do you believe in? republican or democrat and he referred him to his speeches. which they can recall wonderful collections of mush that neither side could be offended by. >> motherhood is goods, and you know --

as dewey said future is ahead of us. [laughter] and leadership, but it helped to be a war hero. >> that's of course -- [inaudible] jackson it was real. >> it helped to be a war hero, and you know although what's interesting it he's become commander of nato and to his military expertise, of course, you know he was -- he was hero without question but nato piece was sticky where there was a debate over nato should exist and communist threat in europe or asia, so in that sense his military career had a little bit of a mild downside to it which and this is a part of the story that i tellr know as well but last minute when it was clear that taft was going to lose to eisenhower there's an emergency draft at mcarthur. movement that goes on.

flirtation over the time with presidency and draft, macarthur efforts and so forth to play on that same hero stature, of course, macarthur had a bumpier situation having been fired by truman although in republican primary that was just fine. another story going on. there were so many. i would be remised if i didn't ask you a little bit about yourself john. because everybody knows you anyway. here -- and as i say it's just quiet to u interview a professional u interviewer who is seasoned at this. but you mention your mom on television tell us a little bit about who your mom was. >> she was i guess the first news come correspondent for cbs news so there weren't many women on the tv at the time and when

she was on the air in 1960 and then on first woman only the floor to report from the floor of a convention, that was you know back when conventions meant something and -- [laughter] you know, and there was real excitement and thing hads going on, and so she was a woman on the man's world and kept asking they kept telling her no she loved the hill start out there working for senate relation committee and fist job essentially as a booker she knew all of the senators so she said to them please come on our radio program or tv program, and one of the tv programs she worked on before she was ever on the air was "face the nation" she was on first best and helped get joe mcarkansas thy who was at the time in the middle of being tried over being about to be sentured by senate. called senate inquiry tolynchbw

so they were ever more so saying this is a kangaroo court so they made a little news on that first best, but she then worked for cbs, and then in 1963 over to nbc right before shooting in dallas when john kennedys killed and she was very close to lyndon johnson when she was on the hill. he liked her and so when she went over to nbc, suddenly now there's a new president, and this you know therm -- she was his one of his paifortd favorite reporters so she covered him a lot, and then finished with nbc in '73 and make documentaries. so i -- much happened before i was born and she left me everything that she had about 48 of those long lawyer boxes full of everything

including reason i write about it in here is a lot of those old books, you know, hew scott moderate part of the never or stop gold water movement but also part of the congress man trying to get eisenhower to run in the race he had a great book called come to the party about challenge and being moderate and conservative ring and proud member of the moderate. and he signed to mom you know back when she was covering him and so there was a bufnlg of those books all of the taft books i have about senator taft. all from her library, and one that steven wrote about barry gold water, and in which the sub head of the book is freedom is his flight plan. [laughter] seen gold water was the pilot. and you know long time campaign manager, and the father of congressman john who there have been in congress, and anyway,

soy kept bumping into mom's history when i was this book but ten years ago it was about her life so much of it took place when i was either not on planet or old enough to understand what it all meant. so -- so i've -- spent a lot of time with her since she passed away in '7 97 through process of writing. >> raising a child in washington and this media saturated town all of that can be an interesting challenge in its and essentially to see how a kid responds. even if child wants to be like his or her parents and far away from -- about whatever. as they can how about you? >> i was actually in both example camps part of book and my story with her is that we have a rough relationship between if -- when i was 14 when my parents divorced lived with my dad about

24, and it was very rough, and you know, contributor on both sides. i was no picnic. [laughter] >> great time -- adolescence is full of -- surprising how much i knew about everything. right on the cusp. oh, welcome dad. but they're angels in every respect so -- [laughter] that will be the condition going forward. so part of the book is about us reknitting together our relationship when i started to be a reporter. but if you told me at 14 that if i was going to go into her business i would have thought you were crazy. so it's a funny kind of fact that not only did i -- go into business but after print for 25 years i switched over to being in television. so now working -- >> what changedded your mind about journalism? >> well, i wanted to tell stories and i figured this out

after she died. when i was actually writing her eulogy when was so i loved american history because at the center and that's same with this book stuff about stories, and stories that aren't just you know pleasant but tell us something and illuminate part of the either human character or american krk or the country as a whole. but you know we pass on stories and have since beginning of the time because they use the entertainment value of the story to et it us something about our true about org's and our world so i love -- writers who tell essential truth so that's what i wanted to do in studying literature or writing but i have to get a job out of college secretary atom inc. right before the auto9 '92 race and i loved politics in growing

up in washington, been a government minor so i was interested in -- campaign and governing so for life magazine and "time" magazine and same way of -- the way you write. the stuff we love in the american condition in the story at heart of politics. so that just kind of, you know -- got me going and becoming a reporter where you could instead of looking at stories and books yanked go out and talk to people and so i started covering all kinds of before the first campaign, i covered was in '96. so i had about four years of covering you know the baseball strike, wall street, first 9/11 -- first excuse me attack on world trade center. i covered health stories. really it was a wonderful

training of covering basically everything thrown at me. >> growing up in washington is different than growing up in pasadena or st. louis? or for a kid coming up? >> i think yes. probably not any 2k3w509d good way. you know i had an amazing number of advantages. both in terms of places i qengt to school and also growing up in this world dinner -- part of my job dealing with people in power but as a little kid my parents entertained quite a lot and i opened the door at their parties and could greet guests. so you know, when i was 12 i met ronald reagan at my house. so that's helpful because it -- television is distorting so washington politics is

distorting so i grew up in that distortion but oarngd i hopefully recognized part of it and so through careful effort and snowing story is actually not in washington, has been, has been helpful. but if you actually come from the real world, that's probably you know better, and, in fact, when mom wrote her autobiography in the beginning that she came from wisconsin. out in the heart land she was establishing her kre are den cial not come from washington but from the country. now very quickly if third -- well qib quickly in book telling stories about there. so in the book itself you see that tension. between real world and washington and that helps balance out having grown up here. >> outside the beltway doesn't it. those who live in the beltway we're quite surprised by the way

this -- election year has come along. now, of course, every election surprises us every campaign. >> and surprise in this election having spent so much time on roads covering campaigns and covering the movement that is now supporting donald trump canon in '92 and '96 and on the way to running perhaps in 2000, and the tea party movement in 2010. you know, the disappointment among grass roots movement. grassroots conservatives slightly different than movement conservative so conservatives these days sort of as exemplified. >> viewers out there which is -- [inaudible] grassroots versus movement. >> so this is -- these are loose distinction but you read national review.

you believe in a certain set of ideological principle that represent smaller government, strong national defense, the reagan, three stools of the social conservatism as well with and three stools of the republican party that we used to talk about right. but there's a -- philosophical underpinning really to your -- that's the movement you are in. you are in the conserve movement and donald trump himself is not a movement conservative. he's not a conservative by his and remission. >> xeacts, and he will say as he's said it is not called conservative but republican party which means you have beliefs not at its core but a name of a team, and he's not a -- not a conservative rush lum limbaugh saying in response to leave policies and so forth this is not a conservative and that's been donald trump saying -- excuse me rush limbaugh is a

fan. so nevertheless has identified with republican party who have identified with conservatism. but that more populous part of the conservative coalition -- that was out there. we've known that for a lot of it time -- and mentioned similarities between pat and donald trump are very close, and pat feels proud and it is carried forth. so vigorously by trump that -- grassroots folkses are ones we kind of -- i used to call them a flash mob movement and popped up like the tea party did. but we have to take them seriously now don't we? >> you know, but thing is in 2010 you have to take them seriously they were basically what caused barack obama so much trouble ended up leading yowxd argue to the election of

republican senator in massachusetts that changed health care bill. so that to me was something that you know we saw it in eric cantor's loss and john boehner's getting pushed out of office. so we've seen this coming what surprised me -- is that they would pick as their champion. somebody like donald trump i think this is where i may have gotten populous in movement is confused -- a little even them as i say i was aware of the differences. because movement conservatives say that central problem is with lawmakers although this again they've -- time with capitulating republicans that made them angry is that they capitulated that they give in under pressure an didn't stay true to their word. so if that is key criteria to be king the donald trump is not -- that is not the way he behaves, in fact, his supporters now make

his flexibility on all things everywhere. a great attribute. so that's the thing to me that was now -- some will say we always knew that grassroots conservatives qowld say we want smaller government but don't touch our medicare and social security so there a tension in the desire both for smaller government and in affection for large test program and entitlement. so i guess that's what we're maybe seeing. but -- i guess finally i would say that my view about this -- about this supremacy of staying true to your word was overview where people would say if people do what they promised they would do. if they would behave in private the way that they -- we would like them to. and if they would behave in public in a way that didn't degrade the culture.

a lot of things that have been said by voters that i've talked to who say we want a president who says things outloud that we can be proud of have been you know have kind of thrown away, and i probably you be, in a way maybe overvalid what was actually being said by voters rather than way in which they ended up voting. well difference between what we say and feel. i think that politics of feelings speaks lightly and flippantly but seriously now. because i look at donald trump an reason why john is -- it's a sense of empathy i have because i see excitement in trump support eyes and reminded of the excitement back then, and okay i confess i give my opinion. i was very excited, and i could see them about --

that western going to have change and positive direction away from what was going on. that's what these folks are saying middle town, ohio, in the spotlight with hill billy by jd vance from middle town. he writes about a u rough spell. thissince 50s so we have gone dn hill economically. i think that's what a lot of people are togs about when they say lest make america great again they want to get that sense of security again, and they believe in donald trump so well that he is now vulnerable to all of our advancement with the truth. with facts. but that gets my way. i want my guy in the white house. [laughter] >> yeah. >> and same sort of thing? >> yeah, over last several cycles but increasing passion. talk about i want the country that i grew up in. and become to the way things were, and that is economic message but it is also a

cultural message. that pace eve of change again i feel leak it brings me back to 1997 being with pat buchanan in steel town that you know it was where, you know, they were on hard toils. and closing down in hope of manufacture changing and automation and all of economic effect have been around for a while but anyway this idea that we grew up with a certain set of promise that are being taken away from us and we want those back and that question see that both specifically in place where is donald trump is working hard, ohio, western pennsylvania where they've been specifically hard hit with closings and change hadding economically landscape. but we also see it in a kind of nostalgia for old time that takes among people making over $100,000 a year and that are

bairvegly benefiting in current economy. so it is both a specific feeling that people have about their economic situation and one that much more general that doesn't have links to anybody's specific pocketbook concern because they're doing okay. >> so many of these themes pop up in your retelling of history. and we go gk to let jackson period, certainly that beau canyon period one thing that we see uprisings share in common is sense of populous anger the discontent with way things are going and resentment to jackson elite and department like the federal reserve. by different name at that time but he shut it down and caused economic had halve vok but a lot of folks felt like -- something they want because they didn't trust big bankers in the east. sm they have good reason to.

the economic collapse it is that have resulted from decision of the east coast bankers rooned their livessous on frontier so why -- why are you doing this to me people with fancy theories ruining my life and that's clearly got to be part this have current bos of populousism from '07 to '09 result of misbehavior by pickier e leet but federal reserve or it's washington lawmakers, or it's the mortgage backed security -- all are whose bad decision making savage lives of people who wrnghts part of decision that was made. so you really feel -- it feels very, very modern in materials of the anger at people who are making economic decision that are ruining your life.

>> and donald trump speeches there. you know, but language keeps coming back in different periods of time. but what does that say about american character? >> donald trump and andrew jackson andrew jackson said by their abuse they shall elect me which is basically talking about the writers at the time. much the same way that donald trump plays off of and uses the traditional media as a foil and says you know, and benefits from when "the new york times" writes something negative about him that helps him with his stwengt stwengt constituency so people have "new york times" writes in the electorate. and so what does it say, though, about the -- i guess it is current and comforting so they'll work

themselves out as we've seen them work themselves out in the american story. you know there were moments of crisis and then 1824, supposed corrupt bargain that took place in order to to get john quincy adams elected was with henry clay was -- you know a xries sis moment. people were outraged more when supreme court decided for george bush so national public survived and continue so it gives hope for people read this in pattern is okay okay it's going to be okay regardless of who is elected and that's for some regard lis of donald trump is president or others who are so opposed to hillary clinton can in the idea that country has been able to work its way out in the past.

but i think what it says about the vote voters is basically that passion is always there and always ruling what's happening. this isn't an act of reason. voting is not an act of reason. [laughter] and that's what leads to that unpredictability because it analyzes in a way that seems logical but voteers behave in ways with more to do with internal humor necessarily than what's going on in their brain. >> combination of afl a lot of this you mentioned how elections are opportunity to put people to feel like they can have an impact on -- what the power structure is affecting their lives. >> right. right. it's they have a sense of trail and hearts right now if the way the e elites have been trading. that's a healthy thing you know sometimes it's not always that worry, of course, is that two

worries that the mob would get too big and two worries of the american experience or experiment i should say. one was that we have a king and mob wouldn't have it -- that people would not have their say. and then the opposite that mob would have too much of its say. and so you know web try to say we bounce back and forth between that. those two things so not always -- not always a case that emotion of the vote rs are wrong. sometimes they're a great corrective to theories that they've lost the thread and theme. a lot of people would say that's what reagan did which was reset a federal government that it got -- off its mark. and he threw reconnection and argument for that. >> agen's wife was interesting too when you consider how he was

what during commercials -- well. looked like a spokesmen for gold water campaign. i remembered that speech that was we played around country at the time. and really raise a political profile and well known hollywood -- >> time for choosing. he said he went to bed and working up by a call saying i can't -- figure 8 million stick ises in any head. i don't know if that's right but raised a great deal of money off of that speech. >> 8 million is a lot of money. >> that can buy you something today today to make america great hats but back then it could do something for you. >> today politics trying to get revenge for 60s one side other the other? >> when people talk about it's republican interesting when they talk about wanting to get back to something not talking about 1960s but that buchanan you think america went down hill after elvis presley appear on ed

sullivan show and he said you know things wering pretty good back then. maybe for you -- [laughter] >> exactly. i know, you know that's the thing that's interesting smithsonian african-american culture museum just opened and i did an interview with john will last talk about the paves change and some think it has been too slow recently and john liu wise looking at a picture of young john john liu was part of the march on washington. warmup for dr. king in a museum he worked to get 15 years in existence there's base pace of change right there african-american president. this museum exists -- >> something else in connection with at that john lewis was -- a young radical.

there was a lot of concern about what he is going to say up on podium because he was angry at jfk and all of that time and fear to overshadow dr. king's speech so they talked to him and he went along with the program eventually. but he's been a voice eve reason and moderation for black and white on both sides is really -- [inaudible] had its impact. >> you know, i was in preparing for interview and also he's got that three comic books he's a part of about his life, and the march crowd surf with stephen colbert. for a man with many in life yet another one. but you know that comic book was echo of one that he had read as he was brought into the movement and it was martin luther king, jr. and montgomery story. and that comic book which i looked at in preparation for the interview not only a great piece of just culture history but big

part of the message in there is to love your enemy part of the nonchristian message and emphasis on loving your enemy really feels -- i mean except for families of those who were killed in charleston in the church shooting. mother of emanuel who forgave shooter in that incredibly powerful movement. other than that, we don't hear as much about that central idea of nonviolence which was love your enemy and to hear lewis talk about that. you know, even ones who were hitting him and cracking his skull with a nightclub that is -- really powerful. in term was his history in the world. so many people who were beaten or sat upon years ago received apologizes from those still living under reck reconciliation around south i seen so many happen in south ask and i think this was contrast of america now

because when our politics have hardly ever been more divided than they were now and hostility between people of different beliefs and they're still that light out there in the darkness there that people leak john lewis are carrying on. >> yeah we talk about reconciliation george wallace went on reconciliation tour, and made a strong pitch trying to reform his life particularly by going back to you know african-american pastors saying help me fix what i've done. >> well on that note of hope john, i thank you very much once again. the bock is wonderful, it is a great collection of memory us but kind of stories that can give us u guidance and maybe some reassurance. not to get crazy in this election season. >> i hope so clarence thanks a lot. >> my pleasure.