failing to africa and coming every african flight. dragging them across the atlantic to work in the battlefields. in particular and of course in the caribbean in the middle at the 18th century when the thought was more valuable. of course, the story shifted. the hope in conjunction with the caribbean because the africans outnumber the europeans at a rate 10 to one or 22 when the caribbean's create fertile grounds for the rise of slave

revolts, which is not only jeopardizing the investments, but a lot of slave owners and their families. this of course released a retrenchment on the mainland, where the ratio is a much more favorable to slavery but that does not necessarily save because in 1739 -- in seven to 12 you have the results of the famed manhattan. recently spearheaded by angolan who not only many of them speech portuguese, but many of them were actually roman catholic. they were trying to get to spanish florida at that time controlled by same and there is a direct collaboration between spain and the enslaved africans in south carolina to overthrow this upper-class.

in 1766 to 1763, the seven years war where london seeks to eliminate the spanish threat to their settlement in florida and the french threat québec to suggest that the french were assisting the african and may not in 1712. that is the successful effort of the seven years war. of course we all know even today as we speak, canada put that in particular had french speaking of population, but in any event, london prevails. they wanted to attack because this is where the traditional narrative cakes then. and that leads to the revolt against british rule in collaboration with the french in particular against london which brings us back to the petition

and the religious liberty. >> who was lord that more than what is his role in the revolution? >> guest: the graduates entering a door, probably a year ago and then leading historian started off making what he thought was a cynical comment about the parallel between more and more in the last british colonial governor in virginia 1775. and abraham lincoln. there was something i agree with. that is to say a word done more was very upset shall we say with the fact so you try to cut a

deal with the african peer i was just making reference to the filmmakers credit here in return for liberty for the enslaved, they would fight with london sources. of course this did not win many client amongst the settlers, but mildly it became a notoriously unpopular. the leading historian when he was trying what he thought was a parallel twin board done more and abraham lincoln, he was making a point, which is a course the emancipation proclamation referring to 1863 and some masher as i say in my book was a military masher because in terms of trying to free the enslaved population that the united states does not torture us action over the states of america. that was a turning point because

it allows for the enlistment representing the film glory starring denzel washington and this then allows the u.s. or the union forces to prevail over the confederate states of america. it didn't work in 1775 for various reasons, including the fact that there has been criticism of work done more that he didn't go far enough, that he should have been trying to offer a freedom and saved as a loyalist, those that do not defect from the union, from london. but in any case, lord and more was very important in the united states of america. >> host: gerald horne, if you were to write a general history book for school kids today, what would be the first line in the book? >> guest: i'm not sure what

the first line would be, but i'm giving a talk in a few days -- leading black history in over a century ago. and not talk, taking off from an important seminar that was held in washington d.c. in may 2016 on the run up when was first initiated to the opening of the national african american museum here in washington with the reams of publicity for understandable reasons. at the seminar in washington in may, one leading historian asked if we need to interpret the framework of the united states of america. one historian said is from slavery to freedom popularized by john franklin, still in the framework for brak american history. from plantation to get her. another historian that actually what we need is a new

interpretive framework for the usb of what i'm going to say in richmond in a few days as an answer to that question is yes. and it should be from settler colonialism to u.s. imperialism. as i tell the audience in richmond, that will allow us to incorporate more effectively the present-day diversity of the black american population. in houston, for example, where i teach the black american population has been enriched tremendously by waves of migrants and immigrants from nigeria in particular. people think of joachim hawthorne who was to perform with the houston rockets and toronto raptors in new york city, for example for at least a century if not longer. there has been a tidal wave of migrants from jamaica, barbados.

in miami, a significant number of words in haiti in particular. for various reasons, the traditional narrative were not able to account for that kind of diversity. that is why you think we need to interpret the framework so that we can account for the actual reality on the ground. >> you mentioned earlier paul robison from your new book, "paul robeson: the artist as revolutionary". you write, you cannot fully appreciate how the jim crow system came to an end without an understanding of the life of paul robison. robison pioneered the struggle against jim crow throughout the 30s and 40s. >> guest: that is true despite the fact that i wrote it. that is to say that paul robison, bracco marketing bourne passed away in philadelphia in

1976, leading scholar as an undergraduate at rutgers university in brunswick, new jersey or his stars at the, baseball catcher in athletics generally turn on the spare and goes to columbia university and graduate on the fast track to becoming a lawyer but is diverted although i should say that he also is an early reformer of professional foot tall. but his career as a lawyer was diverted and he stumbles to performance and becomes a leading actor, a kind of precursor of denzel washington or will smith if you like. not only on the silver screen, but also on stage of several signature roles. a good deal of starter is created and wondered where he lives from the early 1920s until the late 1930s with the united states of america. there is a whole digression we

could engage in now with regard to how so many black americans over the decades and centuries have been treated much better abroad than in the place of their birth, which leads to expatriating themselves overseas. a turning point for paul robeson comes when he visits newly fascist or mini in the early 1930s and comes face-to-face with the rising tide of fascism. he also goes on to moscow where he encounters another black leader, william paterson who i wrote a biography about a few years ago, who graduated from the university of california. he's now is the haitian school of law in san francisco and of course attended undergraduate school team in berkeley where i attended law school.

the u.s. communist party has gone from moscow to be trained as professional revolutionary, actually spoke some russian. he convinces robeson that he should devote more of his time and energy to the cause of his people. this is her in the context of the scottsboro case on the subject of the book i wrote. i will mention the details of that case. paul robeson is convinced that he should spend more time in the united states of america facilitating the onset of world war ii in europe in 1939. he has reason to believe that he and his family might be trapped in london. you know that london was bombed repeatedly by the serbian fascists during world war ii. people were sleeping in subways,

et cetera. so he returns to the united states, hopes to convince black americans that the anti-fascist cause is not necessarily a slam dunk proposition because writing a book that will be published at the nyu press called facing the rising sun, african-americans and the rise of solidarity, talks about tokyo sentiment in black america. in fact he misspoke i talk about how a november 1942 in east st. louis, illinois, right across the mississippi river from my hometown of st. louis committee for black americans in military uniforms in anticipation of the japanese invasion of north america. that's a sentiment that paul robeson had to overcome, which he successfully does success convincing they should make the ultimate sacrifice to help rescue the united states.

for no good deed goes unpunished and so after world war ii, japan defeated as a result of the atomic bombing of nagasaki in august 1945, paul robeson who was a socialist thought to be a communist is persecuted and as income falls to the four figures so he cannot travel abroad, but he is still dishing out despite the buzz is absorbing. robeson and patterson with the united nations in the united states of genocide against the black people with an article for united nations body said because of the racial terrorism afflicted against black americans, americans deserve reparations within maltreatment and mistreatment they've

observed over the years. the genocide petition is translated into numerous languages all over the world. this does not necessarily win in washington. paul robeson is called repeatedly before congressional committees. patterson -- paul robeson is not jailed, but as income does plummet. finally, an international move that returns to the password he immediately decamps and starts once again. but by 1965, not only is the health deteriorating so he returns to the united states. the working-class community of philadelphia although as i mentioned in the book, and he is deluded by the rising civil rights move meant, the shock

troops of the movement. they are very praiseworthy if you like. in other circles. there are those who would just if that's the case, it is where the united states all the time. why the double standard. until we unravel these not, you'll be blundered and will do. >> host: you said that to be a communist. >> guest: affect display after

1949, when another comrade, ben davis junior, a black man born in atlanta, his father was a been a member of the republican party. one of the most affluent black americans in the united states. ben davis junior went to amherst college and harvard law school and joined the communist party in the early 1930s and was elected to the new york city council, 1941. 1943, reelected night and 45 before unceremoniously, perhaps illegally in 1949 and put on trial. and some days that effectively illegalize and even if that is not a technically accurate

assertion, certainly it is fair to say that the persecution of those who have advocated for socialism in the united states has left the continuing shadow over this country. that is why i am very appreciative of the campaigner bernie senator sanders of vermont who in a long way towards helping to detoxify the concept of socialism and clarify the concept of socialism in the process of attracting many millennia else, that is to say u.s. spoke under the age of 35. but in any case, there is still an uphill climb with regard to the process that bernie sanders did so much to assess. he was the biographer and the

pulitzer prize. i was part of his cohort, radical democrat. i exit the term socialist as well. i accept the term anti-fascist. ..

>> >> the party that works and with south africa with nelson mandela. with the late anglo-dutch one the nelson mandela himself of the south african communist party there is an interview at the diversity of the connecticut store a few days ago about an inmate in cellblock number seven

nelson mandela was number five for maybe it was the reverse but: picasso, a great irish writer, so i don't run in horror from the dia. >> host: with your books it seems the theme of communist and african-americans 51 that's true. in although you may notice right timor about slavery. but in some ways it is more difficult to write about slavery in the united states and communism that i do which is interesting. because slavery, that is a

difficult question for people to grapple with. with that uplifting narrative for what happens to africans. it is easier to try to glide past that but but including a book about hawaii. in the labor unions taken not remember the subtitle. [laughter] >> where i talk about white marshall data -- mom or davis that is too numerous to mention because they were very closely associated with the communist party that was

successful in the communist flag. even born in kansas before moving to honolulu and then will forever live in infamy. and there he comes to mentor a young man who grows up to be president of the united states but that simple fact has led them to suggest the president of the united states the manchurian candidate was mentored and moves into the white house to capitalize but as i say in the book if you look at honolulu, where less influence is strongest under the u.s. flag, you will find

the state in terms of the vanguard the right to choose with the flag, labor union protection, this was due in no small measure to the efforts of the unions headquartered in santa cisco you may recall the united states tried to deport but in billboard australia -- and no borne he migrates to san francisco won a and then begins to unionize and helps to convert which is a white supremacist rebound that the most aggressive force under the u.s. flag. so the kind of story that i start to write about what i write about communist, but i

would really so any callers with face book or e-mail please communicate that to me. >> host: good afternoon. this is our monthly index program where we invite one author to talk about his body of work and this month is professor gerald horne teaching at the university of houston and here is a partial list of his currently 31 books fired this time though watts uprising. the scottsboro bought it will dash boys coming in 1997, race woman cannot in

2000, class struggle of hollywood, 2001. race wars 2003. black and brown 2005. we be deployed is six years ago. counterrevolution of 1776 we have discussed briefly. 2014. "race to revolution" also that year. and last year "confronting black jacobins" and finally his most recent book "paul robeson: the artist as revolutionary". this is your chance to talk with mr. horne. we will put up the phone numbers in the second and also assure you ways you can contact us through social media.

or send a tweet to twitter or face book on our face book page you can see it on top of the page you can make a comment under his picture. professor horne, 1931? what happened? >> guest: this is the scottsboro case that i rightabout also a talked-about the counterrevolution. but it is the struggle of jim crow these were nine

black youths arrested for allegedly molesting american women on the fast track to alabama to be executed as some many black americans before him that were accused falsely of crimes. but what happened is william paterson intervened from the international labor defense from the communist front to be initiated it -- by moscow to organize an international campaign of the scottsboro nine as they were called. but it also marks a turning point. because international pressure is placed for the more egregious and horrible aspects of jim crow. so with u.s. embassies all

over the world but in cuba i talk about the demonstrations that talk place -- take place where cubans were actually killed. but this case leads to important supreme court precedents with regard to the right to trial by jury as they serve on juries, the u.s. supreme court precedents are still utilized to this very day. so the scottsboro case is to talk about brown vs. board of education or the montgomery boycott. but the difference between the two historical epics is that by the 1950's patterson was on the defensive and the movement that was benefiting

from the fact accusing moscow of human-rights violations found it difficult to do so as long as the stain of jim crow was permanently sided with the united states of america that creates a dynamic whereby a jim crow retreats in the '50s. but the leadership that that time was under internationally connected as the patterson and paul robeson ticket vantage of the conditions obtained. but the scottsboro case was highly important and was written about numerous times. a number of historians. and certainly deserve all of the attention that is received. >> host: why was it a widely publicized at the

time? >> guest: yes. it was in international case in fact, it was global. there is a book published a few years ago of the international aspects of the scottsboro case. is a very sing to the united states of america because with the scottsboro case you open the door to a larger discussion of so-called jim crow and u.s. support take not only separate schools but separate bibles to be sworn in on. that is a level of absurdity that they could not even look out the same window. so this international scrutiny is the more sober and realistic writer to come

to the conclusion that jim crow at least should be reduced if not eroded. not only with the intellectuals but to have a deficit is if you look at sports i am looking to write a book on baseball of anybody has ideas. before the advent of jackie bobbins in 1946, black american athlete the explosion of dominican players on the diamond in 2016. you could have a one arm outfielder like pete gray who plays for the st. louis browns because of jim crow. so you allowed these exceedingly competent black

latinos to come to the diving and there isn't much of a market for the one arm white man. even though you could make the argument as the leaders do, that when jackie robinson entered baseball that allowed major league baseball to flourish. which is true. television contracts and that is true. so in a sense jim crow was beneficial. but it wasn't beneficial to people like pete gray. but also complementing to what i just centcom --, the leaders will downplay

expressed in barack 1957 with president eisenhower to ensure that'd desegregation or oxford mississippi from a few weeks ago with the federal trade -- troops have to be deployed to be segregated at the university of mississippi. to show that this was not just limited to the precinct with the uproar from boston is quite significant. if anybody is familiar with the black american basketball star talk about boston but in the 1980's and 90's with a housing desegregation it was useful the depicted.

but that resistance seems to be downplayed. people think is a good idea to move away from jim crow and segregation. but then when donald trump prices -- rises and can get now support, that was the headline in the column in "the new york times" where she expressed surprise more than anybody for the support of donald trump. there was a number of people . that shows the history or the reality of this country. and my friends on the left have been very helpful in this regard. paul krugman of the new york times to his credit call a few days ago but that comes from a liberal. the conservative l. daytime's columnist has

spoken repeatedly of politics that explains a lot of donald trump. that comes to make conservative not liberals but one of the problems we face able to consider themselves the most sophisticated in terms of analysis. some of these people i don't even think they read newspapers every day. if anybody is serious about politics. but in any case that is my spiels on sunday afternoon. >> host: where did the term jim-crow come from? >> guest: from the very popular performance art in the 19th century in the united states. involving white americans indicating in a fashion the way they thought black americans acted with the

blackface minstrel spur gorgeous red and article that really is making a comeback and australia which is interesting. if somebody comes back here not a strong comeback and jim crow is a cent -- synonym separate but equal then i will just make a reference the historical black colleges and universities such as texas university which in some ways it is right across the street. of very stark legacy of the jim crow era. >> host: when you go to an ivy league school in the '60s and you are black it

could cause you to join the ruling elite and i fell into the second category from the real news network. >> guest: that was princeton. as people often say about the military, oftentimes you're not only fighting for the flag but for that buddy of yours in the foxhole. that is why i look at princeton -- princeton. these universities have a good thing going. they get them when they're 17 or 18 and leave their very impressionable one because you get the

emotional attachment. because of your experience is placed on you. it was once said when there is a search before he was killed there would have found fund-raising letters all the time of laugh laugh in terms of politics with the movement that is to say the undergraduates with the princeton university ties to corporation and apartheid south africa. to occupy the building in protest of apartheid south africa. i recall helping to raise money for the students in south carolina who killed

1969 while driving money to a fund-raiser in philadelphia to be distributed to students. but of course they did not dissolve protest. they were going to class as well trying to do well. but i must say that princeton also prime to me for today because in between listening to the teacher and lecturing i decided i would go the next weekend first new york, then philadelphia that washington but now of course, igo all of these places to do research wasn't doing that course that -- then i was going to socialize. so i have to say i had a decent experience at princeton. >> host: how did you get there? >> guest: a very good question.

what is happening at that moment that gets us back to the research, is that there is pressure to disaggregate. there is pressure coming on i to disaggregate. and prince and of course, began to seek out people like myself now the term i have to confess even though i was reading newspapers media 67 years old although in the debate comic strips and the sports page but still because of his reading the sports page you at that time was a basketball star was taking princeton to the highest

stratosphere of the basketball championships, he was a misery that is not that far -- missouri even though i was not on the team i was captivated and then they kept knocking on my door to apply. and here i am. >> host: what did your parents do? >> guest: my father was a truck driver. my sister would like brexit say that my mother was a house maker and that is true but i certainly recall her working as a maid. i have the distinct memory of that but my mother from mississippi from mississippi

state university hough and my father from columbus must point. om the heart of jim-crow and dixie's i grew up with stories my mother would say don't tell me nothing about mississippi. i would hear stories about having to get off of the sidewalk because whites were coming down the sidewalk. these four stories. i have to say i was very nervous about going to mississippi and i still have relatives there i have never met because of nervousness i was there a few weeks ago i haven't visited mississippi as often as i should hopper although warburg that is unrealistic pet attitude but still i did is still buried

in my consciousness. but my father was a truck driver as a member of the teamsters union. as part of the largest union not only the united states but the county. i used to read those publications mailed to the house. and subsequently, ims fascinated with the st. louis because they had a very interesting leadership. the teamsters understandably and justifiably known as corruption. but st. louis was different the social democrat leader help to work with other black leaders of the teamsters. so the working-class

environment that i grew up with i am sure led me to develop the here -- interests of history. >> host: in your view how significant is the 2008 election? >> guest: is significant. it is true maybe we did overstate the case of a post racial society. a clear overstatement. but given the u.s. torturous past of slaves and jim crow is earthshaking that a black president was elected. although with a footnote in dash 1776 book that deals with the origin of black americans. and i wrestled with the idea

that there is no special persecution of descendants of the enslaved africans in north america not to say that the blacks have the immigrant background like barack obama in fact, cannot wait to read the more from this administration i assure there are many stories about the disrespect he has received as a first black president which has affected foreign policy in terms as if in foreign leaders say if there are powerful elements don't respect him than why shouldn't i? but having said that i don't think it is accidental he is from an immigrant background as opposed to the descendant of an enslaved african. for example angela davis talks about growing up in birmingham alabama.

where she says that to try to evade jim-crow in birmingham she learned to speak french and they would not perceived as a descendant of us -- the enslaved african. so writing a book about aviation, there is a pilot who talks about how he can escape jim-crow in dixie by because he can just walk up and not be perceived as the enslaved african. or look at consol is or brown and new jersey but he feels if he takes that name he cannot see the descendants of the enslaved

africans. this is from the black american masquerading all kinds of different ways because i wrote a book about passing that went on to be the leader of u.s. fashion some -- fascism he was light skinned obviously and was very cultured. and that helped them to evade the reality he was born jim crow atlanta. he was a negro particularly then. so he crossed the color line . yes. 2008 was no doubt turning point in terms of u.s. history. although, i think david axelrod, at procter bob his adviser one month ago said in the larger scheme of

things you could see donald trump as a counter reaction to barack obama as dave george debut bush to save his cowboy foreign policy of the anti-war fans or cosmopolitanism -- cosmopolitan and then the counter reaction to donald j. trump. >> host: gerald horne teaching at city college of new york, uc santa barbara, university of zimbabwe, chapel hill, university of hong kong and a professor of history since 2003 at the university of houston. after he graduated from princeton went on to get his law degree from uc-berkeley uc-berkeley, master's from colombia and ph.d. from