relationship and she wrote a lot of books and there is a lot that is untrue or polished up for consumption. she could be hurtful in that w way. ..

.. >>.. >> i was just thinking of other first ladies in my lifetime to be followed around like that was jackie kennedy. >> why were they so interested?

did she have that kind of charisma? dementia did. that created the phenomenon of people got a big kick out of eleanor because she was inexhaustible. she was a story. you are right to like jackie kennedy been a very different kind of woman. [applause] [inaudible conversations]

>> host: "the attention

merchants" you take is on quite a journey in this book to go laid-back to the early days of newspapers. what inspired you to dive in this way to go so far back to track our attention? >> i always believe the was more about history. so the reason for writing the of book i noticed it used to be the media or the newspapers now there was a cooler face book. so to have this experience that may be other people have had as well that to set up my computer and maybe right one e-mail than four hours would go by it is

called the casino effected. so it is strange where as opposed to have them by the product themselves. when did this start to? who invented this? so we thought it was the roman times but is started 19th century. where did advertising, from? so why is new york? >> that is a great question. with the number of factors he starts to have cities that were large with the enough of the population to address through the newspaper advertisement to

get results. it has a lot to do with the spread of for of the newspapers. and i guess it was the entrepreneurialism spirit. that happened at about the same time of mass media. >> host: early in the book you introduce the idea there are occasional revolts against the advertising or the message that the advertisers are using perhaps they go too far but how many of these would you say there have spent? >> but the survivors six sometimes it is hard to know

how to count them. and big ones in the '60s. as leslie with the beginnings of the internet. >> in the '60s? >> many viewers will remember what is the term of the advertising quick. >> i would point to to dan and turn on. you may remember advertising was the devil. television rewind radio. and with each other.

such people were very serious about this in the beginning but to really believe the of the counterculture. and they believe that to get there. >> and to deliver with commercial advertising. but really about the intentional revolution. >> advertising really hasn't ever been that popular. one of the reasons is the industry harvesting your own mind and attention always a

little distracting and that you don't need advertising. ended does promote -- provoked those revolts but in france may now think of the posters but 20th-century that we had a tough everywhere that there were too many. these said they should be banned so they have some very expensive regulations still in place extensive regulations that may be one reason we go to paris is severely limited. >> so you start with newspapers in the 19th century and then radio program first people think

that won't be a great medium for advertising? but what happened there? >> so it could be the advertising medium but first of all, with that precious scientific achievement nobody will ever listen to that but they saw on the of failure there was the period that chain of theaters in 1910 the movie would be free b would watch the ads during a break and that is how they pay for that and that failed they could make any money either. so the radio the first eight or nine years was not commercial free but not commercial. the very first big hit that

radio who truly put together was the amos and andy show. of the two white guys of what they considered to have negro accent's. one had grown up in the south. fifty-eight minutes everyday to those that were new to harlem and exploring the life. but for whatever reason in cobb like nothing ever before. and in some ways it invented primetime by itself even scheduled to rearrange movie theaters because a realize people wouldn't go. so based on the idea that they were hilarious.

and then has for the whole class century. >> at the same time of day with prime-time television greg. >> after dinner 7:00 but i think more it was a ritual of the dia. and then to have "i love lucy" and uh big show for every evening but it is an anti-at this time an estimate of 40 or 50 viewers every single day. and is kind of amazing. that is half of the super

bowl every day. that is a success. >> 1/2 call to about but you very well could have meant a few words that the researchers noticed that the time. to actually look at the radio. why was that? what did that indicate? of that capture attention? >> with amos and andy people were gathered around a radio and that could keep the dinner conversation the before that it was a background jazz or classical music quietly playing but this was something different

to suggest that we have the audience in their homes and opening the portal of judgment to you this is the perfect way to reach customers. and it was. >> the key words were in their home. so before radio the idea so bleak images to cut meant that nobody will tell -- tolerate that. the difference between inside and outside. but somehow to be brought in voluntarily advertisers had penetrated that enters sanctum with the idea thereafter "amos and andy"

the goldbergs based on the idea that jewish people are funny. so all of these early capture the protestant majority that irish blackboard jewish people were funny. >> clearly be have moved far beyond those ideas. and then with mass media. i was sitting there and then i have memorized every single one with a honeycomb

kid and snap crackle pop. >> i was infatuated with that. [laughter] but there is much more effort put into the advertisement and the program. as a child for some reason in then to succumb maybe more of these adolescent of whatever it was i would watch a. because today talking about revolts trying to avoid advertising. >> when i was a kid that we just sit there through the advertisement that is the way it worked. in the 1950's through my research they would turn off

all of the lights and then just consume it. but today it is the opposite . so it was the difference from that current lifestyle for. >> you remember the edging goals? and with such commercial so how did they respond to the demand with the commercials? >> there was a character

known as wadi woodstock. for so i ate to visit another i lacked basic media literacy we were broadcast people so all of the good cartoons were on cable. so yes i felt for what ever was. and then also to watch "sesame street." itself had mockups of the advertising. sponsored by the letter a and the number five. and then to be interested in learning. and then better judaea their shows.

and then raised like everybody else. there were shows like the transformers. i did not think of them at the time is advertising but of course they are advertisements for the toys and they would make us go by the toys. the same with mtv and the video it would dawn on me that actually trying to get you to buy the album. so maybe that is why i wrote the of book. >> and to be fundamentally

different that there are certain lines that are not supposed to be crossed there are rules about those sorts of images. so there is the idea that is a protected space before radio got mitscher. is that still the case? what is happening there? >> i think things have gotten a little better than they used to be. did depends on the administration. there is a a sense among scientist and pediatricians that not only our children more susceptible to advertising but that screen time is not even good for children but the last couple of pays the pediatrician said levitt no more than one hour per day until

television so by that rule our generation had our minds blown already. and to absorb the brand as a child to be focused on children because that association from a young age straightforward logic talks about coca-cola hiatus or cadillac once you have that in your hand or a in your head of quality or value but my daughter is three recognizes delta airlines, is diaper, even though she uses the word face time. extent to which it is regulated, in the '50s and

in the '80s at the all-time low without much oversight and more attention paid homage advertising may get today. >> that is happening but on the other hand, there has been an increase of advertising is schools. because there's been a decrease of public funding that our schools that they start to sell out the inside of the school for advertising purposes. you can see pictures of school sent minnesota or california where so then you walk through the school. >> how does that work?

the schools need millions of dollars. the company seemed happy and advertisers seem happy. and dave need millions they're getting hundreds of thousands of advertising revenue at the margin. but i think increasingly to be commercialized and then to do research for the book and then to think that it isn't all the time but those efforts by the hollywood filmmakers so the of man of steel like the superman movies they had a servant --

sermon provided in the end the name of the movie. the effort is to get the church audience. and dad have become a challenge. >> it is interesting that early language to capture attention and is interesting even with religious organizations with their own sorts of attention but end of a broader society.

and what would land to history and the word propaganda itself i think it was the jesuits part of the counter reformation. so as to try to fight for attention to make audience on a regular basis. and one led the famous one of the of book is what we think about is what organized religion would focus on for most of human history but then the last 100 years through propaganda. but commerce of industry through advertising and now

what to discuss it in my book is a long term competition between organized religion. all who want to commit this with consciousness. something else they have been missing is one of the reasons of modern advertising techniques. they cannot expect people to show up because we feel bound to churches are competing with sunday football just to put stuff forward. they are in a desperate competition. here's what is in before you. the church, i feel good i am

not an expert on religion but my sense is that come to church were facie eternal damnation. and then with the prosperity here is when is enough for you. some of with the similar trajectory to cure what ails you to help you to live a better life. >> and mention government that it was under the elevator in marketing to capture attention with the u.k. in particular vs. germany to capture attention

to do something that has not been done before. did with rolled 41. id to be the inventor of propaganda and the master in the first world war. britain had a particular problem in the did use construction -- conscription so there it is august when great britain has to eckhardt -- declared war on the german empire. they had an army estimated at a couple hundred thousand it was for 1 million people they had overrun comedy countries already been printed with no party most overseas anyway and they

need to do something. with the first systematic campaign of posters and leaflets and other tactics. all the resources of government is incredibly successful. you were asking people to volunteer with an army within short time became fairly clear that you had a pretty good chance to be killed or permanently injured if you went to the front i cannot remember the exact statistics but 1/4 or 1/2 of the british population of the armed forces of world war i. sold part of the book is a conversation between religion and industry.

before world war i with low-grade products it was seen as medicine. . .

>> >> but it too has come to think that maybe the real resource that matters is the

hold on human attention. the wrought-iron and power with the contents of that is what they see moving forward to make more money. and with the $85 billion for the time-warner property of justice cents an hour important this is but how far this model has gone. we started this conversation talking about the tabloid newspapers. a tidy sector of the economy nobody really cared necessarily so with the attention merchant business model first radio then television and then in the last 15 years to radically

with the internet so every activity, and not every but going to see what your friends are up to one face book, e-mail, of google maps , everything we do day-to-day it is weirder. over 40 years ago was you would think what is going on? but college can this support? so we drive on this advertising model but no question with everything else that becomes more abundant with food, shelter food, shelter, clothing but what is scarce is time and attention. what you cannot expand is time and attention.

so the contest controls 168 hours. that becomes more and more intense. >> host: so the previous book is about this idea where i get this wrong, forgive me that the previous motta of communication has been dominated by one or two big players of society as a whole and the internet could perhaps but it is interesting perhaps that at&t bell was a dominant company that they tried to better position themselves that they wrote the book before face book. what do you think are the chances that the internet would be dominated the awards of that possibility? >> a lot of that i wrote 10

years ago. at that point the internet was understood by everyone to be to have that open period everyone tries out different business models. but then the consolidation or a monopoly like at&t.

like the telephone industry once had a thousand different companies now has four depending on how you are counting. so that cycle that the internet was a new into to see come into the internet so if you look at it now it is the same company like google, face book, apple book, apple, microsoft said amazon and then the list will trail off in than talk about the company's with time and attention is gogol and face book so that consolidation that we thought would never happen has happened and it has implications for our future. >> host: is that necessarily bad? >> idol think so we just need to be aware and not pretend one thing we should not pretend is this will all

be solved by competition the internet is a competitive but at&t lasted seven years of monopoly for. what i believe that monopolies are powerful companies themselves. and often right when they achieve their monopoly or power they have the golden era of idealistic founders, very good products , mainly they got there for a reason because kugel became what is it didn't even have advertising but it got there because of the product. face book is a little harder

>> but that is the idea that they don't give the world anything but it's a relationship. >> it is a little bit of the mystery because that basic quit pro quo is you watch "i love lucy" and huge trade something for something you get the ads but you get the content. i like football but i understand so there you go. >> bat with face book where you getting exactly? to get the stuff that you like, pictures of your friends' kids but is weird that the resell you your own life back to yourself is it any different than the

telephone greg. >> but you couldn't talk to somebody 100 miles away before the telephone. >> but without face book you couldn't immediately share pitchers. >> but there was something called e-mail. >> but it doesn't totally compute to meet. i like seeing their kids but i just think it is weird. because we also give up all of our personal information. to say who lose your favorite band? so to think we were a little more naive back then. it didn't quite have that idea with that johnnie and marketing survey at the time.

and with that big consolidation through those life cycles is that the companies are powerful enough to shut off the competitors and that sounds absurd for gugler face book but with that dynamic young company to shut down innovation as a competitor. but did you let a company have to much control over the economy overall i am a strong believer in that. >> that was the unifying idea if they have control or influence why that could be

bad for society, the correct me if i am wrong it is the threat increasingly of where you go with the adl of face book and google of the world captured our attention in several ways. we pervasively in ways that we are not thinking about. >> i am concerned frankly of a future to live almost constantly manipulated. et reminders me of the casino. it can be fun but there are always sort of subtle efforts to lose control of yourself, stay for hours, i would bike my everyday life not to be like that.

adjusted subtle ways only is manipulated. it is impossible if you read the newspaper it is a little bit that i am concerned as a business model looking forward to the future as so driving cars with sophisticated wearable technology isn't the fact that we would create an environment where everything around us those in certain directions? without us really knowing what is going on? but that is what i am concerned about. >> host: you have our attention now. what do we do about that? >> guest: is important to do your own intentional accounting to figure out how

you spend your time and very distinctly this is how one to spend my time. and have dinner with their families or the of weekend with friends. so to be aware of how you spend this resource. it will make me sound old-fashioned but we need -- we need to create these lines by ourselves, maybe in the older-- religion would force because of the traditions because of the power of organized religion so bewildered side of the sacred space that is

off-limits. >> am not saying they should not watch tv that is life but to have that all your life imposes a serious risk. we need to think about advertising. to be a little more smart about it. i do understand that. said that makes it even more urd desperate. with that terrible equilibrium. but somehow as a society have a better deal with advertisers. at the same time to report

content to suck it up and pay for more content. >> net flex his a most successful nbc example but to pay all of those annoying options but that is important for whenever that is if you want to be more and more free patronize that model. >> host: to you intentionally stopped short of recommending any type of legal regulatory action greg and non a global scale.

and then to south the life out of us with the l. little less time for such a big problem. with some new lines in the sand where people's informations are people state that is such a commodity. >> guest: that is a great and challenging question. so that comes from experience with government and really wondering if this problem is something that is easily regulated? so that is a challenge in this area.

and mainly in the form of propaganda. >> to regulate the marketing appeals of these companies. and then to say watching more but i do support more and with the slashing signs but in this particular case with this problem of our own consciousness comet is challenging to solve through legislation. because it is so micro

moment to moment. and i think about congress and even those well-intentioned agents. and then to make sense. but more broadly into it what tricky very quickly. >> but it was okay and with at misleading advertisement i'm not sure if you feel that it is fine to have limits on advertising like cigarettes and alcohol those that evolves over time. is there no need for different thinking around the way information is collected?

and at some point those that are flat-out lies. and it will make use six but it is a little off color but it there was it was popular to sell dote gonads to men to make the more sexual so that type of stuff. of that libido is of little bit of the aside. >> and we definitely have not given up on the magic

potions that all. every day there is something new and intern's of regulatory and to think about the ads with nothing in return. to ensure you are in the back of the taxicab and there's no way to get out of the captive audience. >> to your mind, sometimes the airline to be very situational with certain environments to be more peaceful. but one reason in the book i held back little bit i did want to cramp into one chapter at the end because

then people are distracted by that. and bbb need to think about that as a ceiling as solution. and that is one of the reasons that i held back. >> when it comes to the collection and the tracking with the services it is why is it possible for consumers to see the dossier? my e-mail address is used by this book and amazon to retarget my ads when i am back on face book and done other sites. why don't i have access to

that master map to see that to make the decision by like this? in the fight don't. >> you cannot stop them right now but there is the do not track features any viewer can do this and probably should but that limited regulation like the brave browser that i use it renegotiates what tracking is allowed. but to get on the tracking we should never forget we are citizens sovereign if we don't like it we should ban it. who loves going to the

liberation to have it collected from you? if we do like that we should ban it. we have the right as citizens to say that we don't think it is worth that. they already know everything. this one guy had a liver cancer because they figured i you would die soon so nobody barely loves this. to say we don't like this. stop it. >> host: so what are the odds with the anecdote about the ad blocking in that

system with safari and the uproar that that caused? is that the early sign quick. >> we could be in the beginning stages that fundamentally changes the business model. is hard to say right now but it is possible 20 years turnout tuesday remember advertising? it died of people were not interested. one thing you have to realize 100 years ago they didn't know what toothpaste was i know what budweiser is no with that tastes like but it could be advertising becomes something that retreats to a limited product and otherwise starts to fade away.

it is possible especially for major media. so we could be at the early stages is seems so obvious. to follow 20th-century processed foods, attending salons, and now we do things that differently. that would cause a major realigning of those differences to influence a society will that be a hindrance? >> guest: also television advertising is a revenue model but now the lot of revenue comes from non advertising but what is interesting is but if they switch to the paid model