constitutional history at hillsdale collegeand the author of the book, the bureaucrat kings , the underpinnings of america's bureaucratic state, professor marino, on page one of your book you write the united states is ruled by an establishment nowhere mentioned in the constitution, what does that mean? >> guest: this is the fourth branch of government which in a way is a combination of the other three branches as a part of constitutional problem. the original constitution was founded on the basis of separation of powers, i believe the most in structural feature of the constitution and in the 20th century we've developed an administrative apparatus for these environmental protection agencies and federal communications commission's, most of this started with the new deal and they combined legislative executive institutional powers and management called this the essence of appearance, that's the problem we face so congress

passes along, president signs the law. what happens? the idea that congress passes a law is the problem, iris doesn't have to. they allow the administrator, the people who voted for or are not in anyway accountable and congress tells them you write the rules, you give them a very vague explanation of clean air or no discrimination or how fair railroad rates and it allows those people who are the experts to make the rules and make the law and congress, what they do for the most part is sit back and intervene in individual cases where their constituents get in trouble with the public constituent service which is much more helpful to them in getting elected. it's a lot easier than a hard job and making policy choices and legislating so the whole problem is congress doesn't legislate. it's not assumingits

fundamental constitutional job . >> has the increase in the bureaucratic state, was it implicit? >> it's coming in waves," i guess. the first grade birth of this was in the progressive era about 100 years ago and woodrow wilson was a political scientists before he was president. he had this whole theory about giving america a new style of administrative state. the biggest thrust probably came with the new deal, fdr after the great depression and periodically there's a reaction after these increases of governmental power. americans have something of a conservative reaction. the next one was the great society in 1960 with lyndon johnson and the obama administration is brought in a fourth wave, the affordable care act especially and dodd

frank act are these sort of monuments that are really qualitatively a new step in the development of america in the way the europeans had taken much longer. >> host: professor moreno, how has that affected uni? >> people usually don't meet federal bureaucrats face-to-face but everything that you would do in life practically is subject to the rules these people make. anything that involves your healthcare now is dictated by department of health and human services. you want to apply for a job, there are all kinds of requirements and regulations that are faced and employers especially have to comply with all kinds of red tape and compliance costs of status that federal regulators are growing. education, schools continue to be managed but schools used to be the quintessential

local institution. americansreally governed themselves . these are now being dictated by washington. so every aspect of life now is being staked by rules effectively made and enforced by people nobody knows. people they can't vote for, people who are accountable, who think they know how to manage the lives of ordinary americans. >> host: you used the 1927 radio act. herbert hoover, who's gone down in history unfortunately as a laissez-faire 19th century american conservative was actually a progressive and the radio act which gave, initially was the radio commission, dave the power to issue licenses to people to operate a radio. according to their sense of public convenience and necessity so these people got

to decide these commissioners and set aside either the public really needed a radio outlet. that's a tremendous power that they had. previously, newspapers were regular relatively unregulated. so radio ended up being a more politically manipulable form of media than the newspaper. it was no accident that newspapers were critical for instance of the new deal then the radio because radio operators were known that you were your license renewal was being right to be contingent on whether you played what the administration wants . an early example of some of the political dangers the administrative discretion of licensing in that. >> host: get given what you've been describing by the federal government, how has that grown? >> guest: not as much as you think. the amount of personnel has grown much since world war ii.

mostly because the federal government gets the states to do most of its regulating, almost all federal regulatory programs, the federal government gives the money to the state and the state has to comply with federal regulations so the states are the ones administering these programs.people haven't noticed so much the growth in terms of personnel because it's being carried out through the agency and by getting private entities to hire officers whose full-time job is that they are in compliance with federal regulations that the government has made the enforcements they go through both state and private parties. >> host: what's the role of the federal register? >> guest: that is through the constitution of these regulations and it wasn't started until 1935 and you have one central place where people go to see what the regulations are.

in the old days, congress had this important statute that would be three or four paragraphs, three or four pages. the federal register is thousands of pages every year . i think the record was about 80,000 pages in one year back in the 1980s and we recently broke that record in 2015 so close to 100,000 pages of federal regulations and the thing about that is even those are the formally published regulation. regulators do so much just by formal memorandum of understanding, they are not published. there are subtle ways that they won't leave any official footprint in the records. the federal register is just the tip of the iceberg. nobody could possibly give up. these companies have to hire people whose specialty has to do with some sort of specific aspect of their position. >> host: in your view professor, do most of the

bureaucratic states as you call it, couldbe attributed ? >> guest: congress is fundamentally responsible. it's their dereliction of duty. it's their unwillingness to make the hard choices i think. because their fundamental interest is in getting reelected and they find the current system actually increases their power even though it would appear to people that the delegation of legislative power, congress is giving away its power. it's not. congressmen are more powerful and more likely to stay in office under this administration, the house of representatives has an incumbent in the race in the house of lords in england. they have established themselves as a permanent class as well. and in the 19th century in the old days when congress did its job, there is a concern then that congress

was interfering too much in the day-to-day of government so we had problems with congress on both ends of delegating too much power and also micromanaging too much. the constitution provides a healthy balance for congress being primary but not an overwhelming part of the government. >> host: the book is called the bureaucrats kings. paul moreno of hillsdale college is the author. >> you're watching tv on c-span2 with top nonfiction book authors every weekend. tv: television for serious readers. it's three days of book tv on this veterans day weekend. 72 hours of nonfiction authors and books. here's some of what you will see. today green court justice

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