>> down on booktv we want to introduce you to paul marino, professor of constitutional history at hillsdale college and he is the author of this book, the bureaucrat came, the origins and underpinnings of america's bureaucratic date. professor marino on page one of your book you write the united states is ruled via an establishment nowhere mentioned in the constitution. what if that means? he might visit the so-called fourth branch of government which annoys a combination of the other three bridges to the heart of the constitutional problem. the original constitution found on the base of the separation of powers, the most important structural feature of the

constitution and the 20th century developed an administrative apparatus, all these agencies. environmental detection, federal communications commissicommissi on, most of this really started with the new deal. they combined legislative executive and judicial powers. the essence of tyranny is the kind of problem we face. >> congress passes a law. resident times a day. what happened? >> via their congress passes a law is a problem. congress doesn't pass laws. they don't legislate. they delegate. they allow these administrators, the people who nobody have voted for an congress tells them you write the rules. you make the laws. they give them a very vague aspiration. we want clean air or no discrimination in the lab as experts to make the rules to make the laws.

congress what they do for the most part if it back and intervene in individual cases where constituents get in trouble with agencies called the constituent service which is much more help in getting a lack did and it's a lot easier than the hard job of making policy choices. the whole problem is congress to legislate. it's not doing its fundamental constitutional job. >> has the increase in the bureaucratic state that an explicit, implicit, hasn't been slow? >> it has come in waves and want to. the first great oeste this was in the progressive era 100 years ago. woodrow wilson who was a political scientist before he was resident had a theory about giving america a new style administrative state. the biggest probably came with the new deal of the er after the great depression.

periodically there's a reaction after these increases in governmental power. americans have second thoughts and usually something of a conservative reaction. the next was a great society with anna johnson and the obama administration has brought in the fourth wave, the affordable care especially in the monuments they really are qualitatively a new step in the development of an american state the way the europeans have had to stay for much longer. >> vester marino, how is this affected you and i and anyone else? >> people usually don't mean to bureaucrat is to face, federal bureaucrat especially. everything you do in life is effect by rules that these people make. anything that involves your health care now is increasingly dictated by department of health in humans or versace. if you want to apply for a job,

there are all kinds of requirements and regulations and employers especially have to comply with all kinds of red tape. the compliance cost of satisfying federal regulators are early next eventually. education, schools are being managed in schools used to be the quintessential local institutions where americans really govern themselves in their school houses and these are now being dictated to by washington. every aspect of life now is being shaped by rules, effectively laws that are made and enforced by people who nobody knows. people that can't name. people they don't know for coming people who think they are -- they know how to manage the lives of ordinary americans better than ordinary americans. >> used the 1927 as an example to >> herbert hoover who has gone

down in history as the laws they fared the century american to ever do with actually progressive in the radio act which gave initially the federal radio commission the power to issue licenses to people if you want to operate a radio according to their sense of public convenience and necessity. these people got to decide whether the public really needed a radio outlet in a certain locality. that is a tremendously powerful power that they have. previously newspapers were unregulated. you need a license to start a newspaper. radio ended at the name are politically manipulable form of media and newspapers. newspapers were critical to the new deal than the radio because radio operators are known for license renewal would be contingent on whether you play ball the way the administration

wants to do. it's a perfect an early example of the political dangers of the administrative discretion of licensing. >> so given what you've been describing has the size of the federal government grown? >> .as much use you think you're the number personnel haven't grown much since world war ii. mostly because the federal government just the state to do most of its regulating. almost all federal regulatory programs give money to the state in the states have to comply with federal regulations of the states are the ones administering these programs. people haven't noticed so much the growth of the federal government in terms of personnel because it's being carried out through the agencies of the state and by getting private institutions to higher officers whose whole job is the full-time job of lawyers making sure we

are in compliance with federal regulations. the government has made the enforcement of this through both state and private parties. >> host: what is the role of the federal register? >> that is the compilation of these regulations. it wasn't started until 1935 they have one central place where people see what regulations are. in the old days in the 19th century congress to pass a statute that could be tremendously important statute that could be three or four paragraphs, three or four pages in the federal register is tense about the pages every year. the record was about 80,000 pages in one unit in the 1980s and the reason they broke that record in 2015. of course 100,000 pages of federal regulations. the important thing about it is even those that will make the formerly published regulations. the federal regulators do so much just by an formal memorandum of understanding that

are not published, sort of subtle ways that don't leave any official put friends and the record. the federal register is the tip of the iceberg. no one could keep up with all of it you big companies have to hire people whose specialty is to deal with some specific aspect. >> host: interview, professor, the growth of the bureaucratic state as you call it, could it be attributed to congress? >> congress is fundamentally responsible. their dereliction of duty. to make the hard choices that. their fundamental interests of and reelect bid and they find the current system is actually increasing their power to cut even though it would appear to be above the delegation of legislative power is congress giving away his power as something sub advocating. it's not. congress are more powerful and

more likely to stay in office under the new system is that the house of representatives has been in come the new rate higher than the house of lords and a leg. they have established themselves as a permanent class as well. in the 19 century when congress actually did its job, the concern then was congress was interfering too much of the day-to-day administration of government. we've had problems uncertain both ends of this, delegating too much power and also micromanaging too much. constitution was meant to provide a healthy balance in terms of congress beam primary but not the overwhelming part of it. >> host: the book is called "the bureaucrat kings: the origins and underpinnings of america's bureaucratic state." paul moreno agosto college is the author.