mccarthy will be at the national press club today. the bill but a washed the bill to watch that live at 1:00 p.m. eastern about 20 minutes from now on her companion up work on the c-span. a live look outside trump tower in new york city. we been watching this in the past few days as trump cabinet appointees have made their way up the elevator to me the president elect and we're inside now is misreported from several sources that hawaii democrat will be traveling today or today many what donald trump, the

two-term congresswoman is being considered for u.n. ambassador. other folks who were invited to see the president elect for oklahoma governor mary fallin and massachusetts senator scott brown who had remarks to reporters after their meetings with the transition team. [inaudible conversations] >> we addressed a wide range of issues in his lane and agenda for america and it was a wonderful discussion, really enjoyed it. you're excited about the administration and all the wonderful things done for america. i was offered a position in the initial meeting to discuss a wide range of topics. thank you for being here.

>> hey, mr. brown. >> first of all, thank you for obviously hanging here. who is a great meeting with president-elect. he's focused out one meeting after another after another. we honestly spoke about my passion and his passion which are veterans and veteran issues. obviously it's the toughest job in the cabinet to the pba because while there so many angels working there, it has so many great problems as well. he's obviously going to take my application under consideration. he's going to obviously made other folks and we should know after thanksgiving. you know, it really depends on the area.

there's still high suicide, long lines. still i think the culture of putting the soldiers as a second-class person versus making it the top priority. there have been some improvements but there needs to be come with all due respect, a tremendous amount of work there. initially i would try to obviously work on the suicide issues. i try to get folks with mental health issues covered immediately. we are going to have to outsource some of those cases to private vendors obviously we've got to work with the dod. when the sooto-be veteran actually leads the dod, we know what his or her needs are. there's a break down there. working with the new secretary of defense would be so critical in transitioning the soon-to-be veteran into the va system and obviously looking at budgetary issues, prioritizing letter needs because there's a tremendous amount of police. i could go on for hours.

[inaudible] >> is already put out a seven-point plan. he asked what my ideas were. it's got the second-highest budget. this serves seven, 8 million people i think last year. it's got a tremendous employee base. there's just so many things to do. so he was listening to my thoughts and suggestions on where i thought we could put our priorities. [inaudible] >> hey, listen. i'm not competing with anybody. i think i'm the best person to person tremendous people out there. anyone who takes a job which is the toughest job in the cabinet because it has so many problems and is so visible in people's lives are depending whether you do it right or wrong i think as the president-elect said is his highest priority and that's where the veterans came out so strongly for him.

it is something i've been working on. i was in the military since i was 19 years old, served for 35 years. then on the veterans committee since i was a state representative in massachusetts and something i feel passionate about. each and everyone of you due to weather your democrat or republican. these are soldiers and airmen and marines who need to be taking care of. >> would he think of appointment so far? >> i'm sure now with the rules change i think obviously they'll get appointed because the democrats changed the rules from 60 to 51. i'm hopeful that we get a lot of democratic support as well. as a president obama, when i voted to advise and consent, i gave him virtually all the judges and people he wanted. it's important to give the new president, whoever that person is committee ability to put some people around him he feels most comfortable with.

[inaudible] >> now, he's doing other things. great, thanks. [inaudible] >> i really can't say, but it was a good meeting. thanks, everybody. >> thank you all very much. oakland to congress. [cheers and applause]

>> if we are smart as a country, we will start to tackle the future of the internet going beyond network neutrality, what does it mean with artificial intelligence? what is aiming for jobs? what about consolidation and commercialization. >> by chairman wheeler t. have for services but also the set-top box item where there wasn any sort of unanimity or consent is on the democrats first tartars is probably also not going to get off the ground. >> a panel of law professors and poli analysts discuss issues related consumer bankruptcy and debt. topics include criminalization of his number dead, credit reports, debt collections and the stigma of filing for bankruptcy. duke university in durham, north carolina hosted the event. it is about 90 minutes.

>> i am crueler johnson and i'm the moderator for this panel. i want to thank duke in the journal for contemporary law by having us. i want to thank all the students and everybody involved in this, especially jim hawkins. our panel today is about the aftermath of being in bed. our co-panel richard hein from uva and michael -- [inaudible] and so we are each going to take 15 minutes. i will go first with the most extreme consequence of the aftermath of being indebted and that is the consumer data criminalization. i came across this topic after years of doing research and finding all sorts of stories about various consumers been arrested or threatened with arrest when they couldn't pay their debt. all of t paper coming out

where i talk about two forms of consumer data criminalization and those two forms of criminalization are terrorized by threats o arrest, accusing them of having committed a crime. the second service exploitation of existing criminal law to accuse consumers of crimes to have been arrested or have been arrested. lastly is the misuse of civil contempt i'll start the last nine in our example is what you dish out. a payday loan from a place called sunshine in her sunshine turned into darkness after she got this payday loan. she defaulted. the creditor.eight default adjustment. the lawyer for the payday lender

to appeal for organization after it was used to get a civil contempt order. she was eventually arrested. the single mother of a toddler ended up spending three days in jail before her mother could bring $50 necessary to get her out of jail. i call this the misuse of civil content process and if they can end the first rule is not to call the prison and the egg to have that this is misuse is because first of all this is my payday lending, to land to people who don't have money. the people who get payday loans. these are folks that have lower incomes, less educated, less likely saving and therefore the

idea that the purpose of which is to discover large extent assets. the idea that there's nonexempt asset is just ridiculous given their business model and the demographics of the people with payday loans and other forms of high-cost credit such as car title loan. this is actually extortion. the criminalize their needs to be charged at the crime in that crime is called extortion which is making of a threat through the use to handle money or other property. most have identified several threat that constitute extortion. it's not like mafia with a gun. we have a whole host of things that can't do to the extortion. in california and in many states run a common thread in terms of extortion to accuse a person or relative or family member of a

person of a crime in order to get money or property from them. new york again to accuse the person of a crime or cause criminal charges to be instituted against that person. that is extortion. missouri, which is where trained for this has a statue called extortion, stealing by coercion is accusing of a person of a crime. i want to start with a lot of cases that you may have actually seen and got press. this is a guy who ran a website called you got posted. ex-lovers could post photos and other negative information about the person and then if the person wanted to get the content removed, they were directed to a website called change my reputation where they had to pay a fee to get the photos and other negative information removed. so he was charged wh several crimes including distortion and convicted.

he appealed on several grounds including that he did not direct any contact. he only responded to deny messages and how to get negative information removed. he never initiated contact and then his response was just profound during to see your photos get removed. he never made any threats. he argued he had not committed the crime of extortion. so teasing this out further, as we unfold the argument in terms of his conviction, he is already taken away the victim's privacy and at least invaded their privacy through the photos and so the unlawful thread he's using here is he's threatening to continue to object to his victims to shame, disgrace and humiliation which is another ground through extortion. so the court rejected his argument, basically saying there was no need for a direct threat more explicit threat.

that the nature of the website he ran in the website constituted a threat to suggest the people to humiliation and disgrace unless they pay the fee and they could only get the photos removed if they paid the fee. so we compared at two wakita shaw. the lawyer come a payday lender will say they did make in a direct threat, the caselaw and next versions as we don't need to make direct threats and in this context, just as any other context of taken away a person's freedom in someone's privacy. the threat is that you are going to continue to take a person's freedom from them by keeping them until they pay the fee. what is common with the civil contempt procedures as once he paid the fee, the money doesn't go to a clerk. the money doesn't go to the courthouse that the money goes to the creditor with the civil content process in the first place. my argument is this is extortion

because the only way she gets out of jail as if she pays this amount which by the way is almost three times the amount of the original loan. so we knock out the argument that you're only getting what you're entitled to. through this process you have ratcheted up the fee so that this person is paying a lot of money to get out of jail and a crime they are accused of this something related to payday lending. we no payday lenders are notoriously known for threatening people with bad check persecution if they don't pay their payday loan south. so now let's move to the second form of criminalization. this is where it's got lots of companies that only threatened to have a person incarcerated. payday lenders, debt collecting companies commit title lenders. the litigation involving the state of washington, several affidavits from consumers stated that they had been threatened with being charged with a crime if they didn't turn over the

property rights and pay the past due balance. so let's focus on car title lenders. i want to make sure you understand and i'm not picking one creditor here at layer. this is a pervasive problem of high-cost creditors exploiting the criminal justice system to threat people with the rest. in this case, the car title loan is basically when you put up a car already paid off as collateral to get a loan. the car title lenders repo man showed up at a document called certificate of service and desire the words that were there to comply with this notice is unlawful in the third degree felony. that decline is being accused of committing. should you fail the contact, your inaction will basically result in a complaint against the local magistrate and this may result in a felony warrant

been issued for her arrest. surprise, surprise after this he turns over the vehicle in the argument that this is extortion. this is not like one of the cases i actually passed over where the cord blood to the threat being implied. this is not an implied threat. if you don't turn over this car, you're going to get prosecuted and that is enough to constitute an explicit threat. in virginia as well as other states, again it's criminal extortion to accuse someone in order to get money or other property from them and i would include turn over the vehicle. and in a cash express. it's important to go after the big guys because otherwise there's no incentive for smaller businesses to do anything. those who follow this a few years ago was sued by the cfpb for a host of violations of

consumer protection laws. ace cash express the second-highest payday lender were charged with the main thing that came out of this case is a training manual. the training manual diagram which we can't get into the specifics of it, but they alleged that the training manual diagram was used to create a sense of urgency that the consumers had to get another payday amount, basically roll over the existing payday loan and debt aids's and home employees threatened people with criminal prosecution if they didn't make these payments, if they didn't pay what was demanded of them. and so, my contention is some higher out people need to be charged with conspiracy to commit extortion, right? we sealed the media drama with wells fargo. all these low-level employees and we know following

instructions from someone. somewhere in the mid-level management, a training manual doesn't get created by one person. it is created in the mid-corporation they are a plenty of people who had to be involved in the training manual and instruction to tell the workers to do all these things to try to intimidate people into paying. my argument is this issued the conspiracy to commit extortion and that crime focuses on not necessarily whether the big tempeh is because you and i know there will be some people no matter how much he threatens, they don't have the money to pay. conspiracy to commit extortion will focus on the behavior of golf. that is the agreement to use the threat of accusing someone of a crime in order to extort money out of them. the last part of criminalization i will talk about his actually having people arrested, filing police reports. jim hawkins had to do it because he's from the great state of texas. cash advance filed hundreds of

criminal complaints against people in only certain jurisdictions in taxes because they knew the da office would send out a letter basically saying if you don't page you will be charged with the crime of passing bad checks. the majority of the time the consumers paid just because they feared going to jail. in the q&a we can talk about how this process is being used to add a whole bunch of thieves. folks are not just paying off loans. again, this constitute extortion because you are not just getting repay the loan. now you are able to use the force of the criminal justice system to add on more fees to cause the consumer to get out of jail or avoid going to jail. so in my paper i argue this is bad for a host of reasons including the fact that most state statutes actually been most state constitutions ban the imprisonment of people for failure to pay civil debts and that what we've got going on is

we've got routinely various creditors doing the run around this constitutional prohibitions on incarceration over civil debt. in particular, the payday lender is even worse because several states including the state of texas have laws that limit even prosecution against payday loan borrowers. some state statutes say they cannot be prosecuted for passing a bad check. texas statute right here as you can see there is a limitation. the creditor has to show forgery, fraud or some other specific overt act related to this. in other words, simply giving someone a post dated check this later dishonored if not the crime of passing a bad check. that has been the law for several years and yet you had criminal complaints knowing that the state statute requires something other than a dishonored bounced check as a basis for filing criminal complaints against individuals. so i argue in the paper that we

should care about this because otherwise we are now in state constitutions to be violated. we are allowing particular creditors whose usable content to basically use the subterfuge to do what they really can't do, which is many times it and exempt income source. you think about wakita shaw for example. they couldn't get a court order giving her child support payments. those are social security, all sorts of income are being tapped into through coercion by making people fearful of arrest if they don't pay. and lastly, we've got various states and federal consumer protection laws that are being circumvented if we allow creditors to basically intimidate consumers do what i call extortion in order to get paid. my time is up in jim is making sure we are still on time.

let's go to the next person. [applause] this topic is about accuracy of credit reports. >> do i close out? all right. so i'm going to talk about credit report. it's not just about credit, but used for insurance, housing and employment as well. they are frequently wrong. the fec a few years ago completed a study and found that 20% of credit reports contained material errors. these errors persist despite a federal statute that requires the industry use reasonable procedures to ensure maximum possible accuracy. this standard is generally enforced with a liability rule,

with suze, what you describe his negligence liability. the credit bureaus themselves are liable if they are negligent in trying to pursue the standard. they send the information largely protected by liability for the statute. that is not all the statute does. it also pursues other goals. one of the things it does is that limit the content or use of report and will talk a little bit about also today a provision that limits reporting of old negative information. most negative information failing to repay it back, you can't reported after seven years. this is a hotly disputed topic. there have been many amendments since 1971 it was enacted. many proposals for changes today to addre both accuracy and limits on use in terms of accuracy the proposals for greater liability, proposals for

a set of liability have in the issue in junk it released with the cp on trent c. ruled to have regional procedures for maximum possible accuracy. many proposals funded his shirt and appeared where you can report negative information, prohibiting reporting that negative information altogether altogether and not )-right-paren a bit envious of credit reports for employment. rather than address all those topics individually, i only have 15 minutes. i will instead ask a threshold question. maybe not, which is why do we regulate at all? this may reveal my prayers are different than most of those in the room about regulation. even if you are convinced me to regulate, if the doctor is convinced the patient is sick, the doctor needs to figure out what is causing the illness to figure out in ineffective treatment. so we then ask you don't share the prior adopt that approach.

you might think the answer is easy. there is a strict liability, want to force the port here, the industry to internalize the harms that they are causing to consumers and that would cause them to internalize the full social cost their actions and thereby adopt the right level of care. the problem with this story is the high aren't being conflicted on the consumer is a benefit to other consumers. the primary time they are being forced to pull was truly -- their president should according to theory improve the terms being offered to those consumers. if they would exceed the social costs. a simple example will maybe make this as clear.

they repay with certainty. they are going to default totally. they are all in a competitive market to make math easy. if we have perfect credit reporting system, what would have been the consumers would comment us to pay $100 payment to pay with certainty. the high-risk consumers would have to promise $125 because they default 80% of the time. they pay $100 on average. we introduced the states in the credit reports. in particular, nine of the lowest credit -- consumers are going to be misidentified as high risk. what is going to happen if they still have the perfect credit report are paid a million dollars, but the misidentified consumers will have to pay 116. not 125 because the people who are marked high no longer

default 25% of the time. they default somewhat less often because nine of these people are actually low risk. so the competition should drive the promised price down to 116. this is a very real $16 loss for low-risk consumers are designed at them, $144 loss. on the other hand, the 20 truly high-risk consumers to see their price drop by $9. they pay 80% of the time, so they have $144 gain. in other words, in this very simple example, there are significant private cost of the misidentified consumers, but actually no social costs. it's all about wealth transfer for one group to the other. all about distribution. in the real world, they cannot social cost for a variety of reasons. i have 15 minutes i'm not going to go through all of them other

than to simply note that this idea of separating isn't unique to the credit markets. this happens in insurance and usually what we worry about is not that the business is going to spend too little effort to try to separate the high and low risk, but they will spend too much effort. one of the justifications for the affordable care act and limit the ability to discriminate between high risk health insurance people with existing conditions and health insurance people. there's other arguments but that is one of the arguments. we need to explain why you said here lenders would have not enough in tentative to spend money to get accurate credit reports. the story that's often told in government reports is credit reports are overly negative because the laws they experienced from default the

lost principles are much larger than the prophet david at from illegal loan. they realized their mistake with certainty where the default times the lost loan -- the loss of default is less than the lost profit and if the large competitive market are supposed to be the same. that is not a justification for this law. you can tell stories based on cap petition. the cost of acquiring with the sunk cost and a competitive market the lender won't recover the cost and so may decide to invest too little from the social active and not information. similarly, we should realize some of the information comes from public records.

but best of the information comes from creditors themselves. they have a strong incentive to not share that information or share that information in a poor way. if they share great information to realize who the best customers are. you can tell by the market won't reach the first. they don't really justify the current regulation because the current regulation as a general rule, holds the industry liable for his misstatements for the errors that is something the consumer can point to, but not emissions. that is sorted in the nature of the process for the consumer is going to be coming into complaints. it will not come in and say you said something wrong about me and it's bad here they are not going to comment and say hey, you failed to include other information about other types of credit that don't get reported.

that's just not going to happen. as a consequence, we didn't have a negligence or restrict liability rule. that would be a strong disincentive for the sharing of information, especially for types of credit like subprime credit where there is inherent inaccuracy in the system. i argue that doesn't mean we shouldn't have this law. maybe we could justify distributional grounds. and here i borrowed a term from one of my colleagues, which may not be the most intuitive term called differential inaccuracy. maybe an example would help. suppose we are applying for health insurance. such as go without. there is some genetic disease that substantially increases the amount of help here you're going to need. google just worry about costs. let's not worry about trying to

look at perspective for now. we're just worried about the welfare of the truly healthy. sort of strange, but i'll justify that in a moment. that's assuming we now introduce a genetic test that can determine whether you have this disease. let's assume they identify everybody who does have the disease, but also mistakenly have some false positives and identify people who are truly healthy and puts them in the thick pool. what's going to do is cause a small number of healthy people to subsidize a large number of sick people. if we instead he and the use of this test, we would spread the cost of subsidizing the six people more broadly over society as a whole. that story is nice, but it doesn't fit well with credit reporting where we tried to encourage more accurate report to better be able to separate the high and low risk.

the examples suggest that we can if we ignore the plight of the truly sick for the truly high risk. let's assume we have 950 low risk people and they again repeal with certainty and a high-risk people will default to certainty. iran will apply for a one-year loan and ensure the highest people in the market i'll assume no one will pay more than $110 for the loan. they are credit reports identified the high risks but misidentified 95 low risk is high risk it correctly identified they pay 100 bucks. nobody else will take out a loan to charge more than 100. a second test is available that would identify and correct the mistake and identify the other 95 low-risk people. there is a potential $10 of social surplus. to maximize wealth they should be led to spend $950 for these better tasks. the consumers may prefer a law that in days even if the cost is

a thousand. this would reduce they are expecting again, but risk aversion may mean they would prefer that system. i clearly don't have any time to go through the distributional -- sorry, i do have time for a caveat here. this ignores the caveat of what we do about the truly high risk type. greater accuracy is going to generally make the high risk groups worse off because fewer and fewer low risk -- fewer and fewer high risk fico score people as you increase the accuracy of reports. i don't have time to talk about efficiency justifications and limits on use. i will just say a brief note about distributional consequences. a lot of the major arguments for limiting the use of credit reports unemployment is that causes disparate impact, reduces

minority employment, but the two studies completed so far that the kent state laws, that limit the use of these reports find exactly the opposite. it turns out if you limit the use of credit reports unemployment, minorities, particularly black employment goes down. why? it could be the employers are shifting in another greater disparate impact or simply they are used in the race outright as a proxy for credit reports. so in conclusion, i argue that the fair credit reporting act is best explained as pursuing distributional and non-efficiency goals. that is part of the market that exists but ill-suited to the justice perry appeared to distributional goals will explain why we place greater emphasis on mistakes in credit reports, they stayed and then an

omission. but we should remind ourselves that the distribution effects of the limitations can sometimes be counterintuitive. turns out at b.c. initial evidence suggests these are two working papers. the use of credit report seems to be black and white. and i'm under my 15 minutes. [applause] >> thank you very much. i'm going to start with technology in this paper. caroline, brad, john and christopher. i want to say that the six of us us -- it would be about this amazing data we have access to and i'm going to show a lot of interest in the districts on the

correlation between local conditions and data collection. before i start presenting the statistics you guys, i'm going to want to make sure we are all in the same page. probably everyone in this room knows what data collection is, that that collection is a data account that has been previously more than 180 days past due and has spent close. basically you have a credit card account that you didn't pay and for the first 180 days for six and 180 days for debt goes to collection. one thing you guys might not know or some of you know as one third of americans with a credit file has some type of data collection and reported in credit file. that is kind of an interesting statistic. so why should we care about data

collections? first of all, if you had a data collection in your credit history, that is going to affect the credit score. as i know if you have a bad credit score is going to affect the future access to credit. that might be used by employers when they are trying to hire you. that's going to increase insurance premiums. the second point is related to the presentation this morning to create some upsides on your well-being. you will get more frustrated, more angry. but also decreasing data collections is not just affecting those that have collections but performance of the market in general. if everybody else has collections, more credit than the market and interest rates. so given this motivation for what they will answer in this paper appeared first of all will do something very days. which areas of the country have

a higher share of people with data collections? just as a spoiler alert for the old-school show the southern region and the west region of country art areas there is more high share of data collection. the next research question will try to answer his that we are going to look at those regions. particularly to service track levels with the very small geographic area. so we are going to define that as neighborhoods and we are going to look at the characteristics of those neighborhoods and see which characteristics are related to the people of data collections they are. so we are going to examine a lot of different characteristics of the neighborhood, but we are going to focus mostly on what we call health care conditions. we are going to look at the people in the neighborhoods that are not insured with healthy insurance and also about

holocaust in those areas. we are also going to look at housing conditions. there are homeowners in those areas, the housing value and underwater mortgage. now i'm going to say something about this amazing data, but it's kind of hard for me to say that because we are using credit data and richard just said how bad the data is. we still think it's amazing. so this is a snapshot of september 2013 and then we get 7 million people. so the reason we got 7 million is what we can handle with their computer. the data has information on the credit of all these people around the country. a good thing about this is we have very good description so we know the types of debts they have, if they had the link with that, data collection. we know the approximate presidency of these people.

we know your credit history and more or less where you could. we are going to use this data and we will augment that with characteristics getting information from the acs, and the document outlets for housing costs. so with the outcome of interest here? the outcome interest for the presentation is an indicator that someone has data collections are not. we're just going to make one restriction higher than $100 there is a good nation for that because people have data collection lower than $100 could be just like a parking fine that happened a long time ago and you don't even know about it. and we know that this credit rating are very small in the credit scores. the definition of data

collection that i just did for you already. here's the most interesting part of it. so this is a map of the united states and this shows a shift between each, so think about the place with 4000 people. that has data collection. nsa said before, if you look at this map, regions of the u.s. have a higher collection and especially the southern region in the west region. the state that has the highest data collection by 2013 was nevada. 46% of people -- 46% of consumers with the credit file have data collections reported in the credit file. on the other hand come ithe region of the u.s. with data collections is actually the upper midwest. north dakota, south dakota, minnesota. the state of the u.s. is a lower share of data collection. 70% have data collections. in their credit files.

so it is very big, so what we are going to do now is zoom in with two very different states. the first status taxes. so on the left hand side you can see the distribution in taxes by the shared data collections they have. there is some variation there. i want to point out especially in the southern part of texas there's a lot of consumers with a high share of collections. in fact, mr. pollack in areas with the highest shared data collections is in texas yet it is called mcallen if i'm pronouncing correctly in the southern part of texas. interesting enough, if you compare the data collection and texas with the people who don't have health insurance, you can see kind of like an interesting pattern there. the places where people have less coverage by health insurance is also the place

where they have more data collections. in the country with the highest with the lowest health insurance coverage. 36% of adults don't have health insurance. we will go to a completely different state. this is minnesota. minnesota is the state with low number of people at data collections. even within minnesota, there's an interesting variation there. the region of the state with a higher share of data collection. if my minnesota geography is correct, like in the north, northwest it is called -- there you can see more than 65% in the area of that data collection. interesting enough, if you compare to the parts of the state where people don't have health insurance, there is some correlation to you. it is also an area with high

shares of people without health insurance. so anything like maps that could be misleading weren't going to do here is just to plot a graph, showing the neighborhood. think about 4000 people. the people that don't have the assurance compared to the share of people that have data collections bear. you can see a clear pattern here with this craft with the correlation between people with health insurance in the shared of people with data collections is 0.6. that's not everything about health insurance. there's also housing markets. here we are going to do the same graph, but itead of people without health insurance will plot the people with negative mortge value that you have in the house is higher than the home value. this is an indicator of how bad

the housing market is. you will see also a positive correlation there. places with the highest share with negative equity also have a higher share of people with data collections. d we do one more thing because we have amazing data so we had to show different stuff. we will ot the same graph and then we're going to look at unemployment rate. in 2013 is still the end -- the beginning of the great recession. so we are showing here they would have a higher share of high unemployment rates are also the ones that face a higher share of individuals of data collection. the paper unfortunately go over and over with a lot of diffent graphs like that, but i can give you kind of a summary so we find the neighborhoods with lower hoing values, more underwater

mortgages, high unemployment rate, lower median income, lower education payment and higher share of applicants and the places with higher shares of data collection. so, what's the implication of this? i would like to come here and tell you for sure to give people health insurance and that is going to decrease data collection or give people jobs that will decrease data collection. i cannot say this because this is not a causal paper. this is just like statistics about things. to make the statement that strongly. one thing you can say is knowing things about neighborhood kids all you a lot about the likelihood that someone dared have data collection. so if you think about we are trying to find policies that can improve financial well-being and make people less likely to have data collection. we can use this information somehow and then we can sort of

create a national financial coaching program. or we can do something more direct to places that we know this is a problem and make the policy less expensive and more effect days. thank you very much. if you want to know more about her research, but continuing e-mail. you can find us but i don't have it here. you can go to our website. thank you. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> good morning.

thank you for having me. my name is michael sears, associate professor at university of denver college of law were generally teach bankruptcy and commercial of topics. before i begin, let me think as many others have professor hawkins and his colleagues for organizing a symposium which i think is important and timely, duke law school for hosting him on contemporary problems journal for funding and organizing the symposium. this panel is about the aftermath of consumer indebtedness. in addition to the criminalization of debtors, one of the ramifications is filing for bankruptcy. so that is what i got a particularly for consumers and consumer bankruptcies. ..

>> it's probably well taken that a lot of social and income stratification in the sociology literature comes from a macro perspective and we heard a lot about that from the first panel from the consumer protection bureau. much like anderson snow, what i do at least in this paper is look at it from a micro sociological level and that's significant because as you see on the slide, these patterns of income inequality at the macro level for large quantitative kings statistics reproduce themselves on the micro level between the people and their face-to-face interactions and how they think about the situation and the phenomenon they find

themselves in so what this paper is about and what my current research and immediately past research does is take this micro sociological perspective through the lens of people clamoring for consumer bankruptcy and at the risk of boring everyone in the room but i felt obligated to lay out my theory less i get yelled out by law professors, my perspective is from the sociology symbolic interactionism which to water it down completely is a qualitative approach to yielding empirical data about human conduct and the task as you see is to get close and familiar with the people you are studying to learn about their situation. most importantly, the theory of symbolic interactionism is about meeting and to tease out through interviews and through observations the meaning people making their own lives and in this case about their finances and

their indebtedness so what i've done with this study is a part or property of illegal chaos, i've situated myself in a small legal aid office of two attorneys in colorado, i can't name it by name but they have given me full access to observe all their lawyer client interactions with the consumers that come in to their office seeking legal assistance, particularly for bankruptcy and i said it several hours a week there with the convenience sample so anyone may have an appointment with that particular day that i'm there, we offer them the opportunity for me to sit in and listen to the lawyer client counseling session about their soon to be bankruptcy petition after the interview, if i feel comfortable i will ask them if they will sit down with me

a later date for an in-depth interview which usually last between half an hour to two hours talk about their experiences and you see the goal is to understand what their processing and the term of the paper legal consciousness is just that, how are they appreciating this bankruptcy process? it's qualitative so my findings are not supposed to be representative of every debtor in the country, it's a very small sampling however, ing the concepts that are coming forth through the people's narratives to me, hopefully these concepts for a theoretical framework of how many consumers around the country think about their bankruptcy cases. so the research question or questions is very simple. how do people quote, think about this bankruptcy process ? many consumers hear the word bankruptcy and think it's

this ominous thing to be tackled or to be challenged or are fearful of it. they don't know much about it which is probably understandable. second, how do they make the decision to file bankruptcy? and third, how do they gain access to the banking system? some of the people that i'm interviewing are a little bit biased obviously because they've already found a way to access the system and they already in large part made a decision to file for bankruptcy but i do ask them questions about how they came about the decision to do so. some demographics, again, feeling compelled to give use it to text, descriptive as they may be. at this point i have spoken with 23 total people which doesn't sound like a lot, qualitatively is right in the wheelhouse of lowest to interview between 40 to 50 people andyou can see the

breakdown , it's pretty much a third between single females, single males and married couples, overwhelmingly the population is caucasian. this is a small city in colorado made up of mainly caucasian communities.but there are a lot of latino and latinos that use the service, african-american folks less frequently. the demographics may not be what you think. i thought more at this point would be unemployed. however, 70 percent or approximately 70 percent have been employed while they are thinking about going through bankruptcy. but these people are middle income to low income, they have as you see types of jobs like hairstylist or driving for a waste management company or a waitress or doing those types of jobs, no one in my population higher

income or what you think of, white collar and i should add this legal office has been passed studies on thecost of retaining attorneys for firing bankruptcy petitions . just a general average is probably over $1000 to file what is called a very simple chapter 7 bankruptcy petition. this legal aid office charges people only $500 to do so and we represent them from start to finish so it's a low-cost option for people to file bankruptcy which is one of the reasons why they are attracted to go to in the first place. the gross monthly income, this is based on the bankruptcy petition. i'm giving you the mean and median. i don't think that a significant really as the next slide which is the disparity in these 23 people of total assets versus total

liabilities. the mean is less important because there's one or two outliers, one couple own a $500,000 home fully secured by a mortgage but you can see that total assets, the median of this 23 people is just a little over $9000 which may not be much to many people but their liabilities, the median are tremendously overwhelming compared to the assets and we basically don't have the means to pay back the amount of debt they've incurred, much of which i think you found his medical debt and medical debt related so the preliminary findings. here's where it maybe gets interesting. nothing in this list, is not in order of importance, it's just the wayi find. the emerging concept, the first which i found interesting . financial desperation and identity work. in the sociological literature, particularly with people in a stigmatized condition and bankruptcy,

i've written about and pamela has written about before is a deviant or stigmatizing condition for many people in much of middle income america but what is interesting that i found is the males that i spoke with in this population . particularly for fathers are finding it very difficult to have to admit to themselves that they need to file bankruptcy for themselves and their families. they take it as a tremendous hit to their manhood, their sense of being, the provider role, the sense of being a father to their children. they equated to a great sense of failure to the point where one or two of the fathers i've spoken with thought of suicide or thought of self-medication through alcohol because they were so despondent after having failed their family which perhaps is a significant finding. secondly, we've heard a lot about credit this morning. one of the things that people count about credit, these

bankruptcy filers, every one of them invariably asked the attorney how do i build my credit back up? how do i build my credit back up?and the practical reason for it is to get a mortgage later in the future, to get a car loan in the future and for a lower interest rate but when you listen more closely to some of these stories, a lot of them that i've interviewed quite good credit wi self-worth. for example, there was one woman i spoke with which i literally could have asked her what color the sky was in her refrain every time was i used have a 700 credit score. i want it back. it really wasn't about using credit in the future, it was about her sense of self-worth

and that it meant something. even though the number was not reported except to agencies but to other people, it was important to her and her identity to have good credit score. it made her feel more worthy. the second finding is class status and lawyers which i don't think it's anything and dedicate to bankruptcy at all. many of these people and again, lower middle income or low income at the time , they are filing, are very hesitant to seek the aid of an attorney. they come in in jeans and sneakers and t-shirts and shorts sometimes. and what they are fearful of is the lawyer who is wearing a fancy suit and an expensive thai who has a lot of books in his or so her office and what they are concerned about is being judged by an attorney who has a higher level of education and many have said to me i thought when i came here, and this office is a hovel. it used to be a big bay tackle shop, nothing fancy at all but yet they were concerned about hiring a private attorney for this legal aid office because they

were concerned and expressed to me, they thought literally an attorney would be shaking their finger in their face saying you really messed up by being in financial trouble. why did you do it and how did you come to that situation? they are holding back going to or seeking lawyers for assistance based on this class and knowledge differential. more sociological perhaps but in the deviance literature, people find themselves in deviant conditions do what's called moral boundary work area and what these debtors are doing that i've interviewed, unprovoked by me are creating boundaries between themselves and other debtors.and their narrative is that i am essentially the discerning debtor because i'm here because of the medical debt , recent divorce , factors beyond my control and they speak of this group of non-deserving debtors who went to vegas and gamble, who bought a lot of big-screen tvs or are abusing the entire

credit process which research has shown for 10 or 15 years that that population really doesn't exist and it's always people that abuse the system but they are making these moral boundaries to see themselves and perhaps to give them or two saves face to themselves or to the interviewer. relaying needed self-care, what i mainly mean by that is people with medical problems are intentionally not going to the doctor and seeking treatment out of fear of creating another medical bill. for example, a woman who i interviewed who had the ability debilitating lupus refused to go to the doctor and crying while she was saying this to me because she didn't want to create another bill for her and herhusband so what does she do as he deals with the pain ? and others who have psychological issues or needing other things have

delayed seeking treatment because of the bill. very quickly, one minute left , didn't think i would get through that slowly. lawyer client interaction, there's a host of large literature out there who controls the lawyer client interactions in all sorts of fields. here i am finding it more of a negotiated conversation between the laer and the client, one thing i will note is that it's largely the lawyer that is controlling the chapter choice of bankruptcy,particularly chapter 7. all belong there , rightfully so based on their income and assets in a chapter 7 but the choices essentially made for them by the attorney by steering them in, in a word, it always happens in any communication that you obviously want to do a chapter 7 and the client doesn't know the difference but they agree with the

lawyer. the last few, post bankruptcy life. very interesting. i asked the people i interview with about their postbankruptcy life. to sum up quickly, they haven't talked about it at all very much just scary and that's perhaps a problem that needs to be addressed and the last one , bankruptcy is a fresh start. most everyone thinks and i do to that bankruptcy is this quote unquote fresh start financial life. many of the people i've expressed about bankruptcy in different ways which is a new life in their physical relationships or romantic relationships, their health and even their income, that bankruptcy will let them move on in life in different avenues by on the financial and thank you very much. [applause] >> so i wanted to, one, go ahead and open it up to questions because the last

ones didn't get, didn't have that many questions from the audience so they say they want me tocome up to the front with the might . if you don't mind, that long walk down here. yes. really fascinating paper, i had a couple comments on the last two. michael, really interesting work but 23 observations, i think we can't make much of the summary system so i would encourage you to think more about the other findings that you have, especially postbankruptcy life area and it got me intrigued . when i think bankruptcy, i think my students and the creditors. something in contrast to what you said at the legal aid office so most of the filers have never met their lawyer before so there's a kind of

rollcall before the meeting and so it's really interesting. many of the people also are trying to file chapter 13 with a second, third or fourth time because they plan to not succeed funds, so i'd be curious ifyou can follow up with your sample , if you would see any differences in how people interacting at the legal aid office, how successful they would be in chapter 7 but how successful the chapter 13 is and also, i really think it's fascinating data, really compelling stories coming out of the data and your report i find out how you can tell a cosmo story but these stories about delinquencies or debt collection, is there any reason to believe that collection agencies are more active than others, i just

don't know the answer to that but isn't the case that people are doing that more frequently or is it that creditors, collection agencies are more active in some areas than others? >> thanks for the question. the specifics are not to be generalized, it's just giving you a sense of the people i spoke to, i wouldn't put that on paper other than a table in a sense of who i'm speaking with. your other points are well taken. this is the first sliver so to speak of a larger series of papers that may address what your concerns are. first, what i like to do and i think when i finished the last of these interviews, do the same thing but not in a legal aid office setting but with private attorneys. at least in my state to see if the interactions are any different, see if the clientele or consumers have any other different consciousness about the bankruptcy process.

i have some ideas which i will go off for now and the other idea is again, when this is done is to do a longitudinal study with some of the debtors that i've spoken with, particularly at six-month intervals or year intervals to see how they are managing postbankruptcy because many of the people don't have a plan, their plan is the builder backup and that's about it. you know this, and if you don't increase your income or the creature expenses or do both, you may find yourself in the same position for five years down the road so those are my plans. >> ask for your question. it's very interesting. when we started this paper and the versions that this paper, we had that outcome on collection is an outcome and we wrote the whole paper but then realized those two things are very similar so the same story that we are seeing in the data for delinquent debt, these are the same stories we saw in college. , i think that collection is

more related to financial systems as we decide to focus on data collection so answer your question, the balance you see in the data, the regions of the country that have high debt collection , we see that going quincy in that and also with all these local nations that we have. >> this was coming on the bankruptcy, did you notice, did it come up in the interviews, i grew up in the bible belt and it's really popular nowadays but popular through the 90s, basically said bankruptcy is a failure and christians shouldn't file bankruptcy and i practice law and helping my church members and one of the problems is trying to convince them that

god is not going to be mad at them if they file bankruptcy, that bankruptcy is in the bible. the jubilee . this is a way for god to give you the jubilee. >> the answer is yes but not the way you think. there is this legal aid office, a church that has 10,000 members. and some of the people, because it's a local community are members of the church and in the legal aid officeand they bring up, i don't ask questions , but they bring it up and i'm thinking they're going to say exactly that. i'm a bad person, my religion and otherwise. two or three out of the 23 go to see the guidance of the pastor at church or the clergy and the clergy actually looks at their balance sheet, their financial statement and advises them that it is okay to file for bankruptcy. there's no shame involved with respect to the church and their needs but it is the

church that gives them the sense that it's an okay thing to do which is what i would not have expected. >> the whole post bankruptcy plan, at what point are you interviewing folks because when i filed this bankruptcy law, that was one of the things doing the counseling session is okay, after this is all over, you've got to find a way to get more income or really, i always say both, you needed to do both, increase your dispenses and find more income so you don't find yourself filing bankruptcy in the future. >> yes, so i'm interviewing these people or seeing them in their first appointment with a lawyer which usually takes place 45 minutes to an hour about sitting down, thinking about their

finances, citing this chapter, getting all the financial information down there on the precipice of filing for bankruptcy. some of them don't come back, some design but this is before the process actually start. so you're right and i don't think other than mister credit, this late office doesn't do much of a job of counseling them what to do. it is interesting that many of them have not thought about it. it's a temporality of the bankruptcy process i think. >> lauren lewis, ucf. >> so bruno, i wanted to ask about your proposed solutions. so why is it going to help to get financial coaching if the problem is medical debt or unemployment? i can see why the match savings program makes sense because you want to basically create morpeople in that zip code but that doesn't make much sense to me. then i had a few comments for

rich, one is what about the value to low five go score consumers, high-risk consumers about not becoming over in bed given that now we have a micro saying that over vettingdoesn't lead to bankruptcy . and also wanted you to address the sort of parallel between information about if you withhold the information, you are going to get more race discrimination with john donahue's work, with employment and finding that when employment discrimination laws came into effect, people were less likely to hire african-americans, mostly because people are more likely to litigate when they are fired when they are higher or not hired. and i think that we, despite

the fact that we know that,, that the antidiscrimination laws still serve and express purpose and the long-term purpose, that is important for society and maybe accuracy in credit reporting and not using credit reports for employment or housing serve some expressive value life, your financial history isn't going to trail you. you get a fresh start for you shouldn't be judged on your finances when you apply for housing or a job and there could be some express their that's important i think that the evidence we have now about the whole active financial coaching and education is, if not 100 percent clear. there's a bunch of papers saying oh, don't finance but

that's another question. i should have made that point. the way i see this is that financial coaching which interact with things that happened to you, for example if you lose your job. youhave to make decisions about oh, should i use the savings i have my kids to go to college to pay my dad ? i think that could happen to particular people. that could be interacted with financial coaches so that's why we save this decision that had i financial distress, like financial coaches help those in those outcomes. >> very good points. i agree there's a cost, social cost for what you would call misallocation in the sense that it gives you a lot ofthe pooling , the high cost or cost that affects the true cost of providing goods or services to them area and therefore they may consume

even when it doesn't provide a benefit to the cost and in some cases like health insurance we don't worry about that. we don't think potential patients are going to be over consuming medical care in other cases we might. we don't want the high-risk auto driver to continue driving. we want the insurance to apply for the market. and i hope, in this draft of the paper i cut things for words, maybe i will make sure it gets back in isn't a real risk of risk me allocation in the credit markets because to the consumer, the interest rate tells them something. maybe they shouldn't be taking on the debt and accept that can lead to indebtedness. with regard to the discrimination point, the finding that withholding, refusing to allow employers to use this information can harbor minorities is

certainly not unique to credit reports. another one of my colleagues at virginia in the department has a recent paper showing the same thing seems to be happening with bama box and his other papers he finds that criminal records and unemployment black unemployment goes down, that this is in close equality with crime and they are overestimating the correlation, that seems to be what's going on. i can't remember her name off the top of my head but somebody had the paper, steve wozniak had a paper that showed that restricted use of drug testing, employment goes down. if you encourage drug testing, minority employment

goes up. i don't mean that we should allow all these uses, there may be some expected purposes but that we should recognize that our expressive purposes has real costs that are opposed to what we think we are expressing or at least encourage. these are all working papers and empirical studies, they never proofing for certain, we do the best we can and in addition there are real benefits to help people that we may want to help been using credit reports and employment. i have a study that i could be drafting right now what i'm working with two of my colleagues in our department that seems to show that if you put these laws in place, people who had trouble making the payment in proxy for bad credit, people who missed payment forutility payments, their employment goes up . consistent with a study of some people in sweden and one of the studies that shows arms to minority employment shows that employment goes," census tracts, bad credit, that also seems to be running so there'scosts and benefits , those are distributional questions.>>

could they put points on the collector's part. they are just low asset communities on our homes and family i wonder if you set

that correlation. it's all bundled in. we've left them more vulnerable. wonder if nevada is a different issue. putting that aside could you map out that with the other regions. >> about nevada that's probably true. i was one of the states for the housing markets. remember our data that could've happened before that. the housing market landed so badly.

i think if they could get data on wealth in this country i would love to do that country -- study in this country. the way short racial wealth gap is tremendous. i don't have data by that. but not at this census tract level. >> we don't -- we do have data on home equity. so for the whole part about yes but not the rest. it's actually lower in poor

places a lot of that is there. >> i had one for you. responding to your questions about pastors. i have read basically popular press articles about the effects of criminalization here and there. what if you see anything about certain states try to take action after they see people with criminalized debt going through their court system.

a bit of an antidote. maryland is one of the highest% districts in the country. a higher procedure rate has been linked with pastors telling that per they will cover for their own churches and by same i help my pressure nurse with their own debt now i've always said i was moral failing. it was a business decision at some point this is an about your family's business. those questions. i've heard about it from the

beginning. and now you have data i was wondering if the following up on that in particular about them and their bankruptcy stigmas is what you're fighting consistent with what she found in previous years about how people talk about their filings and they try to get out from under. what is a networking that gets people from hey i have a financial problem to i'm gonna file for bankruptcy. the interesting part i actually think there is a racial difference so this popular person that never gets

that. actually think that in that universe when i'm talking about my practice of law i'm talking about convincing white people that it's okay for them to file bankruptcy. when it comes to african-americans eventually just hit a wall. i think it's a good thing that they're hearing that some churches are telling the folks that they're okay that's what i've been saying all along that this is a good thing because now you're gonna be able to shed some debt manage going forward. and avoid get into this getting to this problem in the future. what i wanted to ask also was have you met any people i'm

talking about collection tactics. have you seen any of that? >> let me take them in reverse order i guess. people are being hounded by their creditors. i haven't heard a story of a vet -- overt threats. i don't open my mail. so your findings are very interesting to me because it is one step more aggregated to collecting the debt. to pmi's question. how to get to the legal office is interesting it doesn't

advertise they have a little sandwich board the curb in front of the street of the main strip that people drive through and people tell me and it's in shock. like a sandwich board at a the shop to get food or soup i always thought about going in but i was too scared where he didn't think i was ready. and then it's another call comes from the stress and psychology of it in the monkey on the back of not getting out of there finally propels them to say i'm doing better about it. i walked in. the legal aid office designed itself not to look fancy. they do it purposely to create

a walk and mean nonjudgmental atmosphere. and the people to finally take that step and they feel glad about that going back to my other finding a feeling judged. how to get there as they see the sandwich board or its watercooler talk. they know a friend who is filed. matt assuages a sum of their concern about filing in the first place. as far as stigma goes. i think they are coherent in the sense that making more boundaries between myself and someone else is a flip for seen justifications or accounts of white people file for bankruptcy. that stigma is still there. the need for making account. it's not random sample that i can't generalize. at least to me some people are getting more comfortable with filing because of the watercooler talk and it's not

such a bad experience. >> number questions? one last question. i have in the back of my mind throughout all of the talks. the stigma of filing for bankruptcy. is there anyway that they use the trans union data to get a sense of michael's story of the watercooler affects and lowering the stigma of bankruptcy. or is there some threshold of people in financial distress are the number people of people filing bankruptcy that reduces the stigma.

you can definitely see how even that behavior of your community is a likelihood to the bankruptcy or something like that. i think that's interesting. it's almost impossible to discern because of course communities where lots of people are filing for bankruptcy had low income. high unemployment rates. it's can it be able to distinguish how much they are distinguished by their peers it sounds like the research is uncovering some of that. >> here is the question. their different places. the information we had is where you live. and how you interact with your neighborhoods.

select any generations of family members were extended families they file bankruptcy in the not so extended family. >> i will have a comment on that. i have a data set in north carolina. all the cases for the last 20 years. and there is definitely repeat family. legal aid knows that. it's like common knowledge. many family members had that aspect. in terms of filing for bankruptcy it leads them on very low income communities. they're not talking to it in the families.

among the very low income. with the work that i've done. everybody is very concerned about how to keep it a secret and whether they would find out. i think it would make it much less likely. where people are rather than the networks. and not talking to their neighbors. >> this will be the last question. my question is for professor don sent -- johnson. of the and concentration. and some creditors as well. it has come across my desk or my various activities. especially in the past more

recent years has really been more of the lender getting a judgment from the creditor they sue the debtor and get collection activities including trying to get and maneuver the borrower to needing to appear in court. and then they don't show up as they often don't. and then the judge holds them in contempt. it's not that they are being incarcerated for the debt they are being incarcerated for being held in contempt. they're trying to get the consumer in that spot. my question for you is to what extent had you read anything or do you had thoughts about educating the bench and the judges out there who are maybe holding these borrowers in contempt not really understanding that this was a

strategy for some participants in the marketplace. >> that's a good question. the technicality is er being arrested because you failed to appear. i argue that based on case law and other settings we are going to elevate this. the substance is that once you arrest somebody the relatives argument try to help you because now you are in jail. they might not had been inclined to help you before. since that is the real motive and since the money immediately goes over to the creditor. that is the real purpose for it. why are we letting them go straight from the person who

pays it to the creditor. more to the point of educating the bar it might be that my mindset is punitive. that lawyers should be sanctioned and it goes back to my time. i know i sound like a bleeding heart. there were just certain things i would not do. and understand why there were not more people like me. what i don't know is what happened. when they said how can we get her out of jail. i'm to gonna say that this is a common thing.

i think it's common among of the bar. if you represent creditors they will usually call you up. so if you're seen to that person anything other than is what i don't represent. you are being complicit and part of my argument is that that is conspiracy to commit that. they had been charged with criminal extortion and that should be a basis for you to be brought up on ethics charges because you are not acting in good faith. you're not using the process because you really believe that debtor has it. you are instead using it to course that person to find a way to pay the debt. and you should be sanctioned for that. i would suppose i was actually

thinking about this. what is my minimum and my least restricted way to try to deal with it. so now it is part of educating the bar. in ohio when we found out 15 years ago that the payday lenders were prosecuted. that's what they did and to go and educate the bar until attorneys and prosecutors there is no crime being committed here. there is no intent to defraud. it is evidence of a loan. not evidence in with intent to defraud. until i came across the 2007 case darke county ohio. where a woman was prosecuted.

they prosecuted her with deception. there was no deception here. you know there's no money in the account. the prosecutor said she stopped payment. that is the deception at the time you get the loan. not using some action come, five or ten days later. i'm saying all that to say i might not be happy with just educating the bar. we had prosecutors and judges who wink wink, non- not want to help out these payday lenders. they are active in lobbying and in supporting the campaign. we would have judges and prosecutors more inclined to

not do anything when people are charged with a crime that arises from a payday loan. >> i hope that answers your question. our time is up. we're about to do i lunches and where we supposed to go? thank you all for coming. [applause]. [inaudible] and looking at some of our

live programming coming up across the sea c-span network. later today madeleine albright and stephen hadley will discuss the politics of the arab world. that will take place at the brookings institution. it serves starts at 3:00 p.m. eastern. a little bit later another event. the council on foreign relations host a program and it features several former chief of staff. it is live at 630 eastern time. eastern time. it will also be in c-span. i live look outside. the potential cabinet members. it has been a busy scene outside trump tower today. there has also been a lot of traffic. the hawaii democrat kelsey gabbard. that is trump spokeswoman. we missed kelly and conway there.

she is being considered for an ambassador post. she released a statement. we discussed of riley variety of foreign policy issues. you can read the impact tire statement online. go live now back to trump tower to hell hear from kelly and conway. they went against the party quite broadly -- boldly early on. he was quoted as saying that he thinks that they should

stop the identity policy. i think there is a recognition at this. there are a lot of voters that feel like this against the party. >> there is no need to mention it. very productive. it was very candid and honest. he understood america and now he will be president to all americans. [inaudible] i could come today. we are not in a rush to publish the names because everybody is looking at the next story. compared to previous ministration.

do you feel like he needs to address the concerns of many americans were fearful about hate crimes races attacks against people who were not trump supporters. he addressed it many times. his address it many times. and he said he will be the president with all americans. a lot of americans are having a hard time accepting the results of the elections. i think it's incumbent upon all of us the trump team and certainly the press and others to follow his lead in telling americans that this is your president. this is your vice president elect. respect them and learn to work with them. [inaudbile conversations] i

know it's not as exciting but i'm here for you. he will have a press conference in due course. i think in the meantime it would be a great idea in the spirit of thanksgiving. it was about having a grateful heart and meaning the thankful. we need your help doing that. [inaudible]

i'm very confident he's not breaking any laws. what he must do and what he can do. also working to transition. he is the president-elect. with someone who has always been very successful. are you can play golf under the transition. i keep success -- are you suggesting that he's doing something illegal. your presumption is that he is. you operate from from a presumption of negativity. it sounds like you are operating from that presumption. [inaudible] i don't believe that he is spoken today.

>> the week before that they have exchanged that. everybody agrees. [inaudible] he is. and if you're talking about the diversity he is met with women and people with color this past weekend. he has met with them here. and it's very heartened and touched.

coming together and wanting to offer him advice. but willing to give him counsel and willing to share experiences and had candid conversations about their views in the backgrounds. [inaudible] >> the nominees have all been vilified to do the job. that's criteria number one. in addition to that apart from that i should say everybody be qualified and capable. they had been very straightforward about it. they represent his thoughts. he is interviewing many different people. you can't classify that for the others.

the highest ranking women in the house of representatives right now. the first woman to give bursts. alina cal will be here. those just off the top of my have with no notes. dozens and dozens of people. it was quite exciting. >> when is he returning to new york and you expect any announcements prior to tuesday. see he will go tomorrow and spend thanks giving with his family. it is yet to determine when he will return.

his appointment will come out when he's ready and not a moment sooner. these are big decisions and they should be rested. or weeks and weeks ahead of president carter and reagan. we are here. i'll think so. [inaudible] is not a hindrance at all. he is a guy that gave voice to that. during this election. i think a lot of folks miss that. in all of america. he is a successful businessman

and billionaire. he understands what the success story looks like. he is happy to take their counsel as well. they will continue to be the case as he is president. he's just someone there. >> he knows how to create jobs and understands the value of pursuing the american dream. they also got lucky at some point. there are folks that understand tax policy. in the trade. you look at trade and immigration in the past.

with a final rally. thanks for sharing it today. [inaudible] absolutely. i will be with the new york times tomorrow. as as invitations come through we will build a go through the the city will be sending it. select are you fearful of what.

fearful of the muslim registry. are you aware of what he said many times about it. he said many times in the campaign trail. if be complete in your coverage. [inaudible] tonight on the communicators. former fec communicators on

how they could change it under the trump administration and the tech issues. if we are smart as a country we will start to tackle those with the future of the internet going beyond that. can you have what it means for jobs. for starters is probably also and neck and get off the ground. watch them tonight. here are some of our featured programs thursday things giving day on c-span. just after 11:00 a.m. eastern nebraska senator on american values. the founding fathers and the purpose of government.

there is a huge civic mindedness in american history. but it's not compelled by the government. followed at noon with former senator tom harkin. >> for everything from monster burgers with 14 and hundred 20 calories to 20-ounce coke's and pepsi's 12 to 15 teaspoons of sugar. city -- feeding an epidemic of childhood obesity. at 330 wikipedia founder talks about the evolution of the online encyclopedia and the challenge of providing global access to information. >> i know there is a small community there. there are five to ten really active users. there's another 20 to 30 that they know a little bit about. they think of themselves as a community. an inside look at the year-long effort to repair and restore the capitol dome.

justice elena kagan talks about her life and career. it taught me an incredible amount. but it also taught me what it was like to be a serious historian and sit in arse types. and i realize it just wasn't for me. >> genius is not putting a 2-dollar idea. it's putting 20 dollar idea. and just after 10:00 at an exclusive ceremony in the way has they will prevent -- present the medal of freedom. much on c-span and c-span.org.

a look now at government collaboration with the auto industry to combat the cyber threats for self driving cars in gps systems. michigan center gary peters and federal trade commissioner terrell mcsweeney. this was held in detroit in july. welcome everyone. i think judging by the spirit in the room everybody enjoyed the conversation we look to continue that. and to really make this into a learning experience for everybody. we have an esteemed panel here. to set the stage a little bit. as we read about 18 months ago cyber security really hit our rater when a driver going 70 miles per hour in downtown st. louis experience what we

thought was the unexplainable despite not having touched up button on the dashboard the vents started blowing cold air. and winchell wipers were going. everybody knows about the two hackers involved with the jeep cherokee. so all the sudden now words such as black hat hackers zero day exploit, ramp sums we are in our automotive vernacular. we have certainly done nothing but increase in speed so to speak in terms of cyber security and where we go from here. as wired magazine wrote at the time. they can no longer count on the idea that exploit code won't be in the wild. they been thinking it wasn't an imminent danger you need to deal with that assumption is now dead. that sets the scene for the next hour with our panel of dc

meets detroit. however named the panel is fantastic because we love dc. coming to detroit to cover a couple of different areas. the blueprint for best practices, standards for technology testing, legal versus state laws, obviously some national security issues. we will take questions from the audience and feel free to just bring this cards up as they are available so will mix that into the general dialogue here. each panelist is to provide about a two minute overview on their point of view on the subject so we will start with admiral thad allen. he is a leader in the firm's department of justice in the future direction. bringing together government

and non- government entities. he completed at december's career in the coast guard and in 2010 served as a national incident commander for the deep water horizon oil spill in the gulf of mexico. >> it's great to be here today. i have a discussion with some folks from the automotive industry leslie in my comments were that this is a very, very important time to be talking about connected vehicles and what is noted with autonomous vehicles. some of the events that i worked in my career i think what were seen as a convergence of information technology. we had issues with industrial control systems. anything that is connected to the internet to get anywhere on the internet as we know. i believe it's really important that we start to understand complexity is a risk. they enable us to do a lot of things but it creates a la