i know of is the indian system which is well and alive and more racist by far. not anything against the indians have in him but -- enlightened government. how suspicious are you of strangers and again the darker colors are the places that are the least suspicious. the united states canada and most of the west does pretty well. genocide, again old as the hills now a few of the things that aren't so great, we do have a proclivity to utopian thinking about this kind of restless and gone haywire so if i want to paint with a broadbrush. there is a dark side. totalitarianism, kind of a western invention but if i were

to explain in general what has made the west great, i would say it's the fact that it has allowed for ordinary people to freely do their thing. it has distributed power in a whole variety of ways and distributed the ability to use power through reason, through individualism, through the family that gives people, creates a greater sense because it's monogamous and not a despotic round of one person presiding over a vast multitude. all sorts of things in the west all having to do in some way with the distribution of power and individualism that make it work but it hasn't always worked even in the west. examples of totalitarianism.

we have to teach about it. we have to transmit to future generations why it's good and why it has to be preserved and why their stewardship is so essential not only for the future of the west but the future of all humankind. but the end right there and thank you very much. [applause] >> thank you. i'm invited to talk about the state of western civilization in our universities and thank you for giving me such a small compact topic to deal with. well, i should be welcoming you to western civilization. you've heard a little bit about what civilization is and what makes the west great but here we are talking about western

civilization and in my view that's pretty much close to the price of entry. you are here to talk about it it and think about if you are probably part of it. you don't get a membership card. what you get is the opportunity to think about cert combinations of traditions in which we are all participating in the way we participate in them is to ask questions and think them through. western civilization has two favorite stories. not the only story but one story points to a golden age when people were free and prosperous and happy. they had good laws and material abundance, loving families in spiritual security. then something awful happened. men invented pay turkey and overthrew the guards and the barbarians swept out of asia or germany or someplace from the

internal combustion -- melted the cats and they all die. something happen, whatever it was, that made everything worse. the identity of the culprit shifts with the teller of the tale to this story is essentially the same, the golden age ended and we found ourselves in an age of iron and now the iron is turned to rust. the path western civilization is inevitably downward. this amerian's the babylonians the egyptians the aztecs, so we'll go the west. that's a the story we tell ourselves alive. the other contrast in the story allows catastrophes along the way. western civilization on the whole surged forward. at least in the aggregate we are happier. our rulers are constrained by the rule of law.

we have such material abundance now that we can play frivolous games within such as banning genetically modified foods are outlawing forms of energy production. who could ever think that was conceivable. only an extremely prosperous world could entertain such ideas. we have achieved new levels of happiness according to the few by liberating ourselves to enjoy sex outside of marriage to monogamous marriage to welcome into marriage same-sex couples. we enjoy -- conquering of once dreaded diseases and add to the average lifespan. while you may not think those are all progress, some people do. along the way we have acquired such elimination on the fundamental principles of justice that we stand ready to bring about that golden age that others thought we lost. the tellers of this tale like the tellers of the story of decline disagree about the

details a lot. are we celebrating the enlightenment? is secularism a step forward or is the sexual revolution the dawn of the new age of self-fulfillment or the twilight accompanying and new age of self-centeredness? regardless of those contradictions all these are versions of the same story, the story of western civilization unfinished. the greeks surpass the egyptians in the romankow did the greeks so we the heirs of western civilization will help usher in a new age of global civilization now to say that there are two favorite stories in western civilization is not to say that those are the only stories. there are others. we prefer great melancholy of leaving where the remnants of a once great civilization or the great host that is yet to come the not so great average

modeling through making that test of opportunities and hoping not to fall into the ditches by the side of the road. my academic field of anthropology which gives me a somewhat different perspective from an historian. the most impressive contrast i can think of between the west and the rest is precisely that we have these competing narratives of who we are a decline in progress. both of them after all express a deep sense that we are in the midst of momentous historical change. the west from early on gained a sense of itself as a place of possibility, place where the order is never so thick that it cannot give way to something else. caracas is writing in the fifth century b.c. tells us he's meeting with a egyptian priest in asking basic questions about history and the priest responded by pointing to an enormous line of statues representing the

pharaohs from age past. the priest that basic social order was fixed and forever. his press and recapitulate the past and told the future exactly. wars, drugs and mortal life notwithstanding, nothing but never change. for processes everything had changed and that meant everything had a beginning and a possible end. he wrote his book for which we get the word history as a search for what it caused great wars between the persians and the greeks. that search led him deeper into the mystery of what we would now call western civilization so different from their neighbors. he was even willing to ask questions like where do the gods come from which the egyptians never could have. but the greeks did. her rides this is a good place to start if we wonder what happened to western civilization

today. the institution that we have set aside to perpetuate our civilization isn't doing such a good job of that anymore. not so long ago anybody graduating from college would have. at least a portion of her rock vs and not not so long before that the great majority of college graduates would have read it in greek. i mean about 100 years in the egyptians eyes. her rides this is not finished from the creek from that allows us to check over syllabi and one civil search. herodias book. acondas manifesto appears about three times that many but so does plato's republic so all is not lost, just greatly diminished. we clearly no longer live in the civilization were educated men

and women are generally familiar with herodias. the question occurs surely the fate of our civilization doesn't depend on familiarity with the nature of book that has no claim to divine inspiration. on the other hand if president obama had paid a reasonable attention to the history is hard to imagine he would have entered into their run nuclear deal in july of 2015. herodotus whatever my attempt at persian -- negotiating the persians is difficult under the best of circumstances and to negotiate from a position of confidence in their goodwill and blind folly. president obama for delay claims to be on the right side of history but he is varying but on the wrong side of our history. the king according to herodotus

sought a message for her before attacking the persons in the oracle told him if he attacked the mighty empire would fall. he didn't quite understand that it was his own. now it just seems like harsh criticism of president obama, let me soften it up it. we can hardly blame anyone for not earning what has not been taught and by the time barack obama enrolled in occidental college as a freshman in 1979 teaching western civilization was our day receding from american undergraduate curriculum. the national association of scholars a few years ago treats the recession from 1964 to 2010 and a 1964 to two semester required course in western civilization was a nearly universal requirement and american colleges. by 1989 more than half the colleges we have studied have eliminated that requirement

altogether and the other half have watered it down to a minor option. a 2010 we can find only one elite college in the country, william and mary that required western civilization and william and mary required it only for history majors. as soon as our report came out they abolish that requirement. [laughter] there was one major public university, the university of south carolina that still requires it for all students. our study did not include some outlier cetaceans such as hillsdale and hampton sydney. moreover they're outliers to the outliers both that have chosen to pursue what some call that benedict option which refers to a radical retreat from the mainstream. as rod grier put a few years ago were on's collapse meant staggering loss of literacy, trade everyday know-how. benedict gathered people in the monasteries where the monks maintain both order of learning

and benedict current usage refers mainly to christians and not just catholics but also evangelicals who want to retreat from modern life and do what they can to preserve christian community from the new barbarism. there's a fall collection of colleges catholics and protestants that serve the mainstream. so there is a way in which western civilization continues in such an important part of higher education in a limited subset of institutions. western civilization may be so far good that he benedict option does both. but i'm not ready to rush to that conclusion. we have had dramatic changes from the political landscape that came with the election of donald trump and the victories of republicans from the house and state legislatures and editor races. there were were on moment of unbridled dominance in the campus left in teaching western

civilization might the bridle after all. he does not in his character and body the highest virtues. his thoughts run and unpredictable predictions and the central concerns next our cultural aspira stations only intermittently. it comes from the word celebrity and entertainment that many of us judge as an asset eroding claim of family faith and community. to say about it for him and i hope for the best. before the election i contrasted trump's use of higher education with hillary clinton and confronting higher education establishment while she flattered and reassured that establishment. her election was the solidified dominance of the lead institutions and their disdain for western civilization.

their graduate sense of entitlement and the american fixation on credential is on. not trump confronts and undermines each of these partly as a matter of his robust attempt to the academy bound up in his structures of correctness. his trademark predictability runs counter to the ever more speech codes sensitivity cops and buyers diagnosticians. and also how this will translate into any poll it -- policy we don't yet know. it does depend in some serious ways as whether we see it as mostly good are mostly bad. towards civilization is a central problem in tone.

at the moment our colleges and universities are saturated with the thought that western civilization is bad and they are eager to foster desperation to escape its toils by becoming as often put globalism or citizens of the world. what if anything this president president trump due to unsettle the prevailing attitude? i would say what he should do is deflate the ego of higher education which believes it knows better than anyone else. i view that professoriat as it magic casting a giant shadow imagining it that it is a giant pair of many graduates have acquired great disdain and their culture. they may be well equipped for social justice. trending ideological themes in their professors i generalize perhaps recklessly but i think

these generalizations are true. colleges and universities have dispatched their core curricula around 1968 and now several decades in the wilderness they are essentially intellectually and go here programs the superficial scaffolding industries requirements. which the course can be fit in and it really is. and we have this sense of students wandering through the education as though they were wandering through a high-end shopping mall picking up the curricular equivalent of any mass-market sweater here and they could die for chocolate there and build trust in with a bad diet. [laughter] foisting western civilization on them straight out probably won't

work. they are not accustomed to that level of difficulty. let me refer back to my role as an anthropologist. an anthropologist can talk about western civilization and talk about what is western civilization. now the beginning of the second chapter of her 1934 book, the anthropologist ruth benedict largely forgotten patterned the culture. she tells in anecdote about the chief of the serrano indians of san bernardino california. the power of the people he lovingly described the foods we gather from the deserts and the shaman who before their eyes would turn into bears. and he breaks and ramon says in the beginning god gave every

people a cup of clay and from this cup they drank their life. the figure of speech was full of meaning said benedict. they all chipped in to the water as if their copper different. our cup is broken now and it's passed away. the poignancy of this image is undeniable and it's only deepened if you happened to know in benefit -- benedict didn't have serrano took the neighbors pottery of someone who died up into the mountains and broke it and left the fragments they are so from ramon to hit on this image, an image of cultural death, he probably never hit upon that image if serrano were still alive and thriving as an original group. ..

>> the race, class, gender of today as children playing toys in the sandbox. it we're speaking first about fusion of athens injures one. philosophy and faith, reason and monotheism for these traditions do not just make it with, they were fused with a hard effort. since i invoked earlier, the

major theme of the history is how the greeks different from their neighbors. egypt transfer self enclosed were self enclosed in the civilization that worshiped itself and found no need to welcome foreign ideas. the persians were only too eager to appropriate foreign ideas but they did so indiscriminately. he offers assessments of dozens of other people within the circles that the greeks knew at that time. he finds in the greeks the unique strength of their selective openness of the outside world. the greeks were curious, inventive and willing to borrow and incorporate the learning of other peoples. to seize a. to seize a multiculturalism our presence in athens and perhaps long before that. the eighth century world of homer brings us into contact with the trade around the city

states. an avid appreciation for the arts. civilization is there. the there. the first olympic games in the historical record date 2776 bc. they were multicultural and us essentially secular. i am prepared to say a lot more than i have time for. let me turn back to the stories about decline. western civilizations to favorite stories or declined in progress. the golden age gone or one of rebirth and assent. our assent. our popular literature, math entertainment, dominant ideologies of these days belong almost exclusively at the stories of decline where awash in stories of distant topia, raters are busy imagining all the ways we could destroy ourselves or be destroyed by others.

outerspace crawls with the aliens have nothing better to do than cross billions of miles to annoy us. every few years we learn of the new eco-catastrophe, too many too many killer bees, too few bees, they central american frogs die off and of north american bats. asteroids that may polarize us in solar flares like away but modern communications. the list goes on. the great fear that rivets the attention of college students today's global warming or climate change. president-elect trumps immunity to this fear has struck some of the liberal press as spilling the absolute doom of the plat. the op-ed pages of the new york times for the last two weeks have read like an extended obituary page for humanity. these raters sincerely believe what they say and i know full well that millions of college students arc questioning

adherents of these doctrines. i bring it up as an instance to how the story of decline is still with us as a terminal indictment of western civilization. why is global warming here, industrial revolution happen. we're. we're bringing this on ourselves. were paying the price of this and there's no way out now especially since we have elected a skeptic. if we ask why efforts to restore western civilization are simon on campus, global warning fanaticism is a significant part of the answer. why started. why started the west when the world is ending and it's a lame what happened. the fossil fuel industry is dooming us all. if we we are to study western civilization the key questions are how and why we progress when the rest of the world to them. how did we progress from the stone age hunters and gatherers who one swather wandered the force of europe to agricultural tribes and then urban civilizations. how did we develop the rule of impersonal law. how did we escape feudalism, it

may be impossible to conceptualize these developments as something other than progress but it's hard to do. we now call for radical population reduction in a return to substance farming. i met college graduates who took that seriously and are trying to live out their own produce. any serious attempt to think about the history of the west requires us to wrestle with the idea progress. i suspect even the most loyal followers prefer contemporary dentistry to going back to the 18 century version. progress is not an abstraction it's a condition of the law. if were going to tell that story of upward climb we have to make rules and room for those follies that came with it the unintended consequences of progress in the terrible things that came out of it.

it gave us mechanized warfare and mass slaughter on an unparalleled scale. we have brought academic or pandemic diseases to much of the world, we cannot tell the story of an light missionary doctor livingston in africa without telling the story of king leopold. if we are to reclaim western civilization to anticipate these challenges i think we need to recognize that we are fighting against the intellectual dispositions that have been cemented into place by students from a young age. one of the most popular history texts that are high schools is howard the history of america, it's a book book that is essentially anti- western civilization. students grow up with this as their predisposition to read western history is a story of exploitation and destruction.

these prejudices lie deep in the notion to raise class and gender comprise most of history. crowds out something we might want to say about political history. after wrap up. how do we go about this. i'll suggest one simple way. let's simple way. let's celebrate thanksgiving. i mean that seriously. the american thanks giving story is now mis-taught in many schools. it's often times as thinking the indians. it's thanking god. the story gets twisted in a lot of ways. when george washington gave us the first thanksgiving day was not to think -- it was to thank god. i've spoken mostly here is an anthropologist and is head of the secular organization. let me speak at the end is a christian. i give thanks give thanks to god for his entering into human history.

western civilization existed in a recognizable way before christianity took root but what we have today is western civilization is the great huge classical ideals. the old old pagan order gave way to something better. christian europe is not always the pit ami of christian virtues , far from it. we now know that we can deal with that. i suggested at the beginning of the talk the complicated mixtures in the history between decline and progress, but the christian worldview that enters into civilization is that history does have a destination, restoration of divine order. most christians don't expect that anytime soon but we look upon history as a meaningful expression of god's sovereignty. western civilization, for all its dark episodes is to be seen as carrying forward god's providential plan. thank you. [applause]

>> chris, do you have a few words you would like to say? >> i would just like to thank all of you for coming here. we are about to wrap it up. i have been told that we can have a little question-and-answer session. anything where doing is a face page where people can watch some of that. with that i think we will conclude. i want to thank the three of you for the very interesting and -- i think this is the kind of cetacean people will watch over and over again because there's a lot of material there to think about. i thank you for traveling here and letting us partake in the knowledge and years of experience. i think it was benefit to all of us. with that, -- [applause]

[inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible]

[inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] >> can i present the view without wrapping? [laughter] the tradition and hang low american history is a small government tradition it's a government that's very suspicious. a tradition that's very suspicious of concentrated power and political authority. obviously hamilton had a somewhat more marginally more benign view of it than jefferson

did but compared to virtually everyone today they both felt government had to be controlled. there's a long tradition of thought encourage in standing up for that. i recently came across a story of civic courage and i hope i have a few moments to relate this to you, it's worth remembering. in 1670 in england william penn was tried for preaching publicly without a license. he was a quaker. he was arrested and brought before a ferocious biased court. the court that wanted to convict him and a colleague who was also arrested at the same time. after a kangaroo trial, the jury was sent out to deliberate and they came back and acquitted

pens friend, convicted pen but not of the serious charge, was preaching was preaching to a tumultuous assembly, the judge was furious and he sent the jury back to deliberate over night without food, water, or chamber pot. they came back the next morning the same verdict. this time he swore at the and the lord mayor of london looked at the foreman and told him he was going to cut its throat. and so the jury was sent for second night without food water, and when they returned on the third day they acquitted both. penn was nonetheless not release. he was sent back to prison for content and the jury was locked up and they were told they would not be freed until they paid a humongous fine of 40 marks.

so 11 of the jurors paid in the jury foreman refuse to. he sought from the higher court and then the higher court ruled that is well remembered in history, his case's or john rules that a jury cannot be coerced, that each jury can make an independent decision. looking around today at our public officials behave when they are afraid that someone might do something to them, people who are much more responsible than a simple juror and looking at the courage that these jurors show, it it shows what is needed ultimately to protect both and they were per pair to fight the revolution. what i most worry about in our future is not so much the loss of our knowledge, but the loss of our courage. we need that ability to speak

truth, to stand up when it's required. i worry greatly about that. >> we do have a microphone for questions. we solved our technological issue. this is a question that were interested in this practical level of politics at the state level for example, can the state legislators that are now dominated by more conservative elements of government across the country as we have seen this election, could they tell public universities to have western civilization courses? with that work. >> there is a bit of legislation that tracked in 2008 that an a.s. was successful in getting inserted, it inserted, it is unfunded right now has other programs are but -- i'm not

generally a proponent of big government but i think sometimes it can redress the balance. in this case legislation that will allow funding for programs having to do with western civilization. states could do that i'm a little less optimistic, penn state could hold 300 people, why are they there, to be lobbied, to be brought to enjoyed the game and to behave so most of these state legislators are in hock to the football teams of the public universities in the states and they're not willing to attack them and bring a sense upon themselves. >> so it's well understood by everybody that the left really has a stranglehold on higher education.

and it has for decades. how can that be solved. it seems like a huge problem problem just starting a course or two it's more than that. 99% of the faculty we know where they stand. how could that be reversed. >> first of all patients is required because we have a tenure system and careers devoted to this and graduate education has ensured that people who are now finishing phd's in history some 85% of% of them have specializations in race, class, and gender. they're not going to be teaching western civilization or they will do as we have currently worked on a project in colorado and wyoming this one requires everyone to have a course in civics.

it is top five people who undercut it. anytime he is public universities to mandate teaching american history civics and western civilization it will be subverted by the current faculty answer is that surely we need to have an alternative path to the alternative of teaching. both in public schools and are universities whereby we can find people who know the subject and teach it well. when i was provost of the kings college i did did that by scouring the world outside the united states who do the subjects. they they are out there and can be found. were really talking about a deep structural reform in higher education that will take at least a generation but probably longer.

>> piggybacking on that question come i know that there are a lot of schools and private schools starting that are classically classical education and this is for middle school and secondary school. but in colleges so there's obviously colleges that focus on the classical curriculum but those are few and far between. could you talk about is it effective to teach children that young, can they stand against it does it help to start that early? >> i believe it does. i think wherever you can reach young people at any age to teach them about the history is a good thing. people in second grade can learn about the trojan horse and have an idea of what's there. does this stick with every student through the years of

college when they'll be subjected to a relentless and prejudice against the west the number of colleges that actually have fairly well conceived program that is in the west is not negligible. some of them are small religious colleges others are largest religious colleges. villanova, of, abbe maria, northeast catholic college, there are enough of the things around that if a student graduates from the classical academy and is willing to settle for something other than the ivy league of the top-rated hundred or so liberal

arts colleges their places to go and get an education that is not antagonistic of our basic tradition. >> in regard to the declining number of these classes and universities in the changing content, i know you mentioned -- of the united states that was my textbook in high school. is there a risk but even if we do start having more western civilization classes but they're based off more biased and inaccurate source like that could that become more problem or is it more important to just make sure that we have a courses and then move on to the content? >> i don't think there's much to be said for trying to teach american history through the lens of howard zen. it is possible there'll be some readers like you who will get a sense of then through mild

propaganda and turn it in another direction. many students will take of her face value and it's a terrible face value. i would say that clearly to teach western civilization in american history related subjects well we need good textbooks. there are problems that i didn't get to because of the brevity of time. we have this shift in public education in the country during the years of common core were history itself was radically demoted. in addition to that the creator of the common court went on to become the president of the college board, david coleman with promise that he would align the sat test in the ap test with common core. so what we have now ascendant ap u.s. history exam which is for

those of you who don't know it is one of the most popular tests in the country, about half 1,000,000 students per year take the ap u.s. history course and the resulting exam. for the great majority of them that is the last time they will ever systematically study american history. so what is in the ap u.s. history and its new common core line format? it's the kind of stuff we're talking about. it is anti- american, to borrow a word or not supposed to use anymore, but it is. if prices rise, class, gender, it erased from history for example there's no mentioned in the 120 page outline of madison, the figure that was removed from history. chief little turtle is there in $10 suit you can tell me who chief little turtle is. this transformation of american higher education in the

direction of deploring america for its basic sense of slavery, sexism, sexism, racism, colonialism, and so on is now so thoroughly views with k-12 education that by the time students reach college it is taken for granted that america is a terrible place in our task is to repent and find some path to that glorious world and subjecting ourselves to whatever the un says. >> all of this sparked a memory with me as a graduate student at stanford i was there for the great jesse jackson prayed and ho ho, hey hey western culture has to go. and the couple a great faculty members but that was a huge event in this process.

>> do you know if the students this year to formed a group to try to bring western civilization back to the curriculum. we help them without that they lost. we will keep trying. >> maybe there's hope even for stanford. >> are there any other questions. >> i don't think you can look at this and as static, i think one of the things you have to fight against his despair and loss of hope. what we have really is a changing way by which education can be delivered. new technology such as c-span, the c-span, the interbank, massive open online courses enable us in the area that i work to offer two years of college for under 1000 dollars. the only thing stopping us from making that world except

it is the regulations of the department of education and the accreditation standards. these are the people who are driving the cost of college education to levels that most americans cannot afford. how long will that go on? i don't think very long. in fact i have a new book coming out next month that is called the coming death of the american higher education. i think it will be overturned by a revolt of education consumers who are concerned not only about the content being taught in school but the high cost. why. why would you subject yourself or your children to this type of abuse. >> why pay $40000 a year and going to massive debt if you have common sense. i think a lot of people are willing to just going around this process. online education may be a way to do this. >> i think this extent to market forces are allowing for your play. the better off off we will be in terms of the product.

>> this is what we talked about 2011 at the lecture. you cannot continue to debt structure. one of the things we talked about is a massive redistribution of wealth that is taken place from younger people to these academic class houses where the academics is sort of have one or two, it's an enormous amount of money. if you think about how it locked in and the competitive forces are locked out we don't think about it this way but it's a monopoly chokehold and a gross economic sense. their livelihoods and if you come in with an online course that is going for 1000 or $2000 a semester dollars a semester as opposed to 20 or 30,000, maybe it's a vehicle for great change. >> a quick question about the

phrase looking through someone else's playbook is soda sense russia and china were not included in the illustration of the world map that shows them as being part of the western society. would it make sense to look into our playbook and learn how we do things and would they be just as long likely to teach a course or allow people to be educated on western civilization in order to gain a better understanding of how americans operate as they go into more adversarial relationship with us along the demilitarized zone, they they have to understand their enemies better. >> i haven't looked into it so i would only guess. i suspect that there may well be more serious and appreciative study of the west and the far east then there is now here at home. in some countries have really made themselves over, not recent

phenomenon but the japanese and south koreans, taiwan, these countries are in many ways highly westernized. dashmac was originally harry lee and was mentioned or described by someone as the greatest englishman east of suez so he knew his western civilization. >> anyone else with questions? i would like to give a strong round of applause and support to our guest and thank them for this presentation. [applause] >> join us later for a look at

how the trump administration might approach the issue surrounding biomedical innovation, healthcare, and drug pricing. that's at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span two. on her companion never, c-span it's a look at school segregation in u.s. history. the columbia school of journalism had a discussion on the topic. you can see tonight at eight eastern on c-span. >> here are some of our featured program, thursday thinks giving dan c-span. >> just after 11:00 a.m. eastern, nebraska senator on american values, the founding fathers and the purpose of government. >> there is a huge civic mindedness in american history but it is not compelled by the government. >> followed at noon by tom harkin on healthy food and the rise of childhood obesity in the u.s. >> for everything from monster thick burgers with 1420 calories and 107 grams of fat, to 20-ounce coke some pepsi's, 12 .

feeding an epidemic of childhood obesity. at 330, wikipedia founder talks about the evolution of the online encyclopedia and the challenge of providing global access to information. >> was there's a thousand entries i know there's a small community there. five - 10 active active users. another 20 or 30 that no little bit. they start to think of themselves as a community. >> and then an inside look at the effort to repair and restore the capital don't. at eight, justice kagan reflects on her life and career. >> had to make senior thesis which was a great thing to have done. it also taught me what it was like to be a serious historian and sit in archives all day, day. i realized it was not for me. >> followed by justice thomas at nine.

>> genius is not putting a 2-dollar idea in a $20 sentence. it's putting a 20-dollar idea and a $2 sentence without any loss of meaning. >> after ten p.m., an exclusive ceremony in the white house and president obama will present the medal of freedom to 21 recipients recipients including nba star, michael jordan. singer bruce springsteen, and bill and melinda gates. watch on c-span and c-span data work or listen on the free c-span radio app. >> james madison is architect of the constitution and washington is the contractor you know

usually looks a lot like what the general contractor has a mind of what the architect has in mind. >> edward larson talks about president george washington's role in unifying the country and ratifying the first federal document. his book, george washington, nationalist. >> they wanted to put washington in but hamilton had already what talk to washington before about this democracy stuff is never going to work. you're going to have to be a king. washington was a true a true republican and believed a republican government. now panel law professors and pen talk about consumer bankruptcy and debt. topics include the criminalization of consumer debt, but it reports, debt collections collections and stigma of filing for bankruptcy. duke university host the event. >> i'm creel and johnson, the moderator. i want to thank duke for having

us. i want to thank all of the students and everyone involved and especially -- hawkins. our panel is about the aftermath. art company panelist is richard heinz, michael -- we will each take 15 minutes and i will go first with the most extreme consequence of the aftermath of being in debt. that is the idea of consumer debt, criminalization. i came across the topic after years of doing research and finding stories about consumers being arrested or threatened with arrest when they couldn't pay their debt. have a paper, not where i talk about two forms of consumer debt criminalization. those two forms of criminalization are terrorizing

consumers with his civil arrest, accusing them of having committed a crime, the second form of exploitation of it existing criminal laws to accuse consumers of time to have them arrested and then lastly the misuse of civil content and pain to get out of jail or avoiding jail. first, an example of -- who got a payday loan from a place called sunshine. and they asked if she got the payday loan, she defaulted. the creditor got a default judgment and the lawyer for the payday lender went through the paperwork to require her to pay for oral examination. after failing to appear they went to get a civil content

contempt order. she got arrested and spent three days in jail before her mother could borrow $1250 necessary to get her out. i called this the misuse of civil contempt process and this is a cartoon i found in the st. louis paper. on the left side where the prisoners send the first rule of prison is not to call it a debtor's prison and the other guy said i violated a court sanctioned. a court summons. the idea that this is a misuse is because first of all the business model a payday lending is to lend to people who don't have money. the we have years of data about the financial data on the demographics of people who get payday loans. they less likely savings, they don't own their home, therefore the idea than oral examination the purpose of which is to

discover assets, so nonexempt assets that could be sold is ridiculous given the business model on the demographics of the people that get payday loans and other forms of high crest credit. to argue that this is actually extortion. the criminal laser needs to be charged with a crime and that is called extortion which is the making of a threat through the use of unlawful to induce that person to hand over money or other property. most states have identified several threats that constitute extortion. it's not like what you think, mafia with a gun. we have we have a host of thing that constitute extortion. in california and in many states one common thread in terms of extortion is to eight accuse a person, relative or family member of the person of a crime in order to get money or

property from them. new york, to accuse a person of a crime or cause criminal charges to be instituted against the person. stealing coercion is accusing the person of a crime. and so i want to start with the lawyer case, this when you may have seen and it got press, this is a guy that ran a website called you got posted. select lovers can post naked photos another negative information about the person and that if the person wanted to get the content remove they are directed to a website called change my reputation where they have to pay a fee to get the naked photos removed. he was charged with several crimes including extortion. he appealed the conviction on several grounds including he did not have any contact. he only responded to email messages of

people wanting to know how to get the negative information removed. then his response was perfunctory, pay this fee, your photos will get removed, he never made threats. he argued he argued he had not committed the crime of extortion. so teasing this out further, if we unfold the argument terms of his conviction he had already taken away the victim's privacy. he had invaded their privacy through the photos in the unlawful thread he's loot using here is threatening to continue to subject the victims to shame, disgrace, and humiliation which is another grounds for extortion. the court rejected the argument say there is no need for a direct threat or explicit threat, the nature of the website he ran and they constituted a threat to continue

to subject the people to humiliation and disgrace unless they paid the fee. they could only get the photos removed if they paid the fee. if we compare that to walk you to show the payday lender they're gonna say they didn't make any direct threat but they say we don't need to make direct threats. and that in this context just as in the others you have taken away a person's person's freedom you've taken away summons privacy. the threat is that you are going to continue to take that privacy and freedom from them by keeping them in jail until they pay the fee. what is common with the civil content procedures is once you pay the fee the money doesn't go to a clerk for the courthouse he goes to the creditor who saw the process in the first place. my argument is this is extortion because the only way she gets out of jail as if she pays this amount which is almost three times the amount of the original loan. we knock out the argument that

you're only getting what you're entitled to but through this process you have ratcheted up the fees so this person is paying a lot of money to get out of jail of the crime there being accused of his similar to payday loans. so let's move to the second form of criminalization. this is where we have companies that only threaten to have a person incarcerated. when companies do do it payday lenders debt collectors car title lenders and litigation in the state of washington, set several affidavits were threatened with a crime if they didn't turn over the property are or if they didn't pay the

past due balance. let's focus on car title lenders. on to make sure that you understand that i'm not picking one creditor. this is a pervasive problem of high cost prop creditors exploiting the criminal justice system to threaten people. the car title loan is where you put up your car that's it paid up as collateral to get a loan, virginia defaulted in the car title loan, the repo man showed up with a document and the words that were their failure to comply with this is unlawful and third degree felony. that is the crime she has been accused a committee. should you fail to content your inaction will result in a complaint via lodged against you and then the issue for your arrest. surprise surprise after that she turned over the vehicle and the argument is this is extortion.

so the court looked at the threat being applied. this is not if you don't turn over the car you're going to get prosecuted. that's that's enough to prosecute an exclusive threat. in virginia as well as other states it is criminal extortion to accuse them in order to get money or property from them. and then i think it's important for us to go after the big guys for extortion because otherwise the smaller businesses would do anything. those of you who follow this they were sued by the cs pd for a host of violations of consumer protection loans. the second largest payday lender, they were charged the main thing that came out of the case was a training manual.

the training manual diagram alleges the training love diagram was used to create a sense of urgency that the consumers had to get another payday loan and basically rollover the existing and that aces own in-house employees as well as the third-party debt collection company threaten people with criminal prosecution if they did not make the payments so my contention is that higher up people need to be charged with conspiracy to commit extortion. we see the media drama with wells fargo, you fire the low level employees and we know there's instruction somewhere. it doesn't doesn't get created by one person. a grits created and then in a big corporation there's plenty

people to tell the workers to do these things to try and intimidate people to pay. my argument is that they should be conspiracy to commit extortion. that crime focuses on not necessarily what the victim pay because you and i know there will be people in the matter how much you threaten they don't have the money to pay so conspiracy to commit extortion will focus on the behavior which is the agreement to use the threat of accusing someone of a crime to extort money out of them. the last form of criminalization is actually having people arrested and filing police reports. jim paek said it do it because he's from the state of texas. they filed hundreds of criminal complaints against people and only certain jurisdictions because he knew the da office would send out a letter basically saying if you don't pay you going to be charged with

a crime of passing a bad check. the majority of the time the consumers paid just because they fear going to jail. in the q&a we can talk about how this process is being used to add fees. they're not just paying off loans. this constitutes extortion because you're not just being repaid alone, you're adding on more fees so this is bad for a host of reasons including the fact that most state statues actually ban the imprisonment of people for failure to pay civil debt. what we have going on is routine various creditors are doing the run around on it carson ration over civil debt. in particular

the payday lenders worse because several states including texas some state statues say payday home borrowers cannot be prosecuted for passing a bad check. there isn't a limitation in the creditor has to show forgery, fraud, theft or theft or some other specific overtaxed related. so simply giving someone a postdated check that is later dishonored it is not passing a bad check. you had people filing complaints knowing the state statute needed something more than the check for filing complaints against an individual. i argue in the paper that we should care about this because otherwise were allowing state constitutions to be violated.

basically uses centrifuge which is many times getting exempt. you can get a court order getting her child support payment. those are protected sources and they're now being tapped into through coercion by making people fearful of arrests. if they don't pay lastly we have various state and federal consumer protection laws that are being circumvented if we allow creditors to intimidate consumers to get paid so my time is up. and jim is making sure we stay on time. let's go to the next person.

[inaudible] i'm in a talk about credit report and today credit reporting is important for consumers. it's not just about credit. they use for insurance, how you use it in employment as well. so the ftc a few years ago completed the study and found out that about 20% of credit reports contain errors. they persist despite the industry use reasonable procedures. the standard is generally enforceable liability role with suits and what could be described as negligible liability. in trying to pursue the

standard. the third assures the creditor that sends the are largely protected by liable. that is not all the statute does. it also pursues other goals. one of the things it does is limits the contents of the use reports and will talk about today it limits the reporting of negative information. most negative information feeling to repay a debt, you cannot reported after seven years. this is a hotly disputed topic there's been many amendments since 1970 many proposals today to address accuracy limits on use. in terms of accuracy there's proposals for greater liability, instead of liability have a court issue or the cpd issue to defined exactly what it is and

many proposals for having limits on use and shortening where you can report information and just outright prohibiting the use of this for employment. rather than in dress all the topics individually i only have 15 minutes instead ask a threshold question which is why do we regulate at all? so minor different for most of those in the room about regulation but even if you're convinced we need to regulate even if the dr. is convinced that patient is sick they still need to figure out what's causing the illness in order to get an effective treatment. so you still have that approach. you might think the answer is easy. was strict liability and we want to enforce these to internalize

the harms that's been causing consumers and thereby adopt the right level of care. the problem is the stories that the harm that is being flipped on the consumer often comes with an invisible benefit. so offsetting benefits. the primary harm the victim's suffering is that there being forced to share terms with higher risk consumers but the presence in the pool improved the terms being offered to those consumers so the private cost suffered by the victims are going to exceed the social costs. a simple example to make this clear, supports there's 80 low risk consumers who default 20% of the time.

they're all looking at a one-year loan to make the math easy. if we had perfect credit reporting system what would happen is the low-risk consumer way pay $100 as they pay was certainty. the high risk consumer would have to promise $125 because they default 80% of the time. now with mistakes in the credit reports in particular nine of the lowest credit reports are going to be misidentified as high risk. will happen is they will still have the perfect credit report still pay $100 but the misidentified consumers are not going to have to pay 116. not hundred 25. because the people who are marked high no longer default 20% of the time they default less often because these people are low risk. so the competition to drive the

promise price down to 116. this is a very real 16-dollar loss there is nine of them, a 144-dollar loss. on the other hand the other consumers see their price dropping by $9. they get paid 80% of the time so they have a hundred 44-dollar gain. so in this example there is significant private cost with misidentified consumers but there's no social costs. it is all about distribution. in the real world they can have social costs for a variety of recent. this is not unique to so this

often happens at insurance. what we usually worry about is not that the business is going to spend too little effort to separate the lion high and low risk but too much effort. this is one of the justifications for the affordable care act that limits the ability to discriminate between high risk and low risk health insurance people. that's one of the arguments. so we need to explain why he said here that that lenders would have not enough incentive to spend money to get accurate credit reports. in the story that is often told in government reports is that credit reports are overly negative because the law states the experience from where the debtor defaults the loss principle is much larger than the profit they would get from a good one. i've spoken to these people and they now realize their mistake

and they're equating a bad loan defaults was certainty when really bad loan is the default times the loss loan is less than the lost profit. if the margin in competitive markets are supposed to be the same. that's not a justification for this law. >> you can tell stories based on competition. depending on how you characterize the market the cost of acquiring information so in a competitive market that lenders will recover the costs. so they decide to invest too little from the social perspective in that information. similarly you should realize that some of the information and credit reports come from public records, the liens but most come from creditors themselves. there's a strong incentive to not share that information or at least share it in a way because

if they share great information the competitors would realize who their best customers are and try to poach them. you can tell market failure stories and why it won't reach. but these don't really justify current regulation because as a general rule it holds the industry liable for the statements and for the errors and something the consumer can point to but not omissions. and and that's in the nature of the process where the consumer is going to be coming into complaint. the not going to come in and say like you said something wrong about me and it's bad. you're not gonna say hey you failed to have other credits that don't get reported that's just not happen. if we didn't have a strict

liability it would be a strong disincentive to the information especially for types of credit like subprime credit where there is inherent in accuracy in the system. >> is so i argue that does not mean we should not have this law maybe we can justify it on other grounds. here i borrowed a term for my colleague which may not be the most intuitive term called differential in accuracy. maybe an example would help. suppose we are applying for health insurance. and there some genetic disease that substantially increases the amount of healthcare that you're going to need. let's assume and will just worry about cost not worry about trying to look at the perspective for now. just the welfare of the truly healthy. that sort of strange but i will justify that in a moment.

so now we entered is a genetic test to determine whether you have this disease. let's assume an identified everybody who has the disease but it also mistakenly has false positives and identify people who are truly healthy and puts them in the sick pool. what is that going to do? it's going to going to cause a small number of healthy people to subsidize a large number sick people. if we banned the use of the test will spread the cost of subsidizing the sick people more broadly over society as a whole. the story is nice but it doesn't fit so well with credit reporting where he seemed to try to encourage more accurate reports to better be able to separate the high and low risk. . .

>> '' >> the correct the identified one will pay $100 minimum will charge more than 100 but at the second-guess they would identify the correct mistakes identify the other knocked 95 lois people suffer just trying to maximize wealth we should spend $950. but actually consumers prefer the life of a mitt cost 1,000 is to reduce the expected gain but risk aversion means a paper for that.

-- dave prefer that. i don't have time to go with distribution but there is time for a caveat with the truly high-risk type accuracy will make the high-risk groups worse off because you were high fight goes core people will be subsidizing those scores as you increase the accuracy of the reports prepared on have time to talk about the efficiencies but babies note at least one of those major arguments nellie's those two studies that completed so far but they find exactly the opposite that if you

limit the minorities in particular the funding goes down. why? that employers are shifting to a greater disparate impact would that they're using their race out right as a proxy for credit reports. >> i argue the fair credit reporting act is best explained with distribution to not eat efficiency goals. but with the justice million distribution will post a greater emphasis with misstatements than with the missions. that sometimes it can be counter intuitive.

>> and i am under my 50 minutes. [applause] >> thank you very much i will start and end i want to say with the success we are nerds so the presentation will be about this amazing data we have access to. and with the data collection . facility nappies statistics i what to know that we are on the same page with a

one-two make sure that is previously more than 180 days past due paso basically have paid spake a credit-card account that you did not pay then after 180 days that goes to a collection. one-third of americans has some type of data collection in the credit file. that is what is interesting statistic so why should we care? first of all, of you have data collection in your credit that will affect your credit score so if you have a bad credit score that will

affect -- affect future access to credit, or when they tried to hire you that will increase your insurance premiums. second is related to the presentation with dated creation on your well-being to get more frustrated and angry but but also to increase the performance in general so there is more credit and interest-rate star lower. >> so what we will try to answer is first of all to be very descriptive to which areas of the country have higher data collection? we will show 1,000 regions

with negative a higher share of data collection so the next answer is looking at those regions so it is a very small geographic area and let the characteristics to see which are related to the data collections. >> we will examine the mostly of what we call the health care conditions for those who don't have health insurance and also housing conditions that there are home owners in that area

like underwater mortgage now i will say something about this amazing data it is hard because we are using credit bureau data so this is a snapshot so 7 million consumers and that is distributed around the country but did good thing is we have the very good description so if they have that so we know your credit history and more or less where you live. we will all augment that with thought characteristics to get information for the

housing cost. >> what is the outcome of interest this justice indicator the summit has stated collection or not will we look at that which is higher than $100? that could be just like a parking fine the you don't even know about it. and reno the the values data collection for their credit scores. so here is the most interesting part. here is a map of the united states in this shows that people that has did a

collection and as i have said before they have a higher concentration and especially in the southern region and the west. the highest was nevada 26% of consumers have data collection reported on the other hand it was in be upper midwest so 17 percent of consumers in north dakota have consumer collection in their credit files. so now we will just zoom into to a very different states the furthest is texas

saw on the left-hand side you can see the distribution with the impact by the data and to conceal some variation and especially the southern part of texas those that have that high share and in fact, the metropolitan area the highest parted is texas and is in the southern part of texas so you can pair that people with those that do or those that are not insured it can seem like an interesting pattern that is also ready have more data collection. but with the lowest health insurance coverage.

thirty-six% don't have health insurance and now to a completely different state minnesota has a low number of people with data collection and the there is some interesting variation there is a higher share. so in the north door northwest there is more than 65% of consumers have did the collection. interestingly enough there is some correlation there there is also an area of health insurance. so what i will do here is blocked a graph think of

4,000 people for those the don't have the health insurance index compared to the people that have data collections and there is a pattern with the graphs of the correlation to those with health insurance or data collection is 0.six. so here we will do the same graph furze is those with negative equities with the mortgage value that you have a newhouses so it is an indicator how bad that housing market is an asa you can see a positive correlation and those properties with negative equity also have a higher

share for. >> and we will do one more thing but we will show the same graph and then the get the unemployed rates. and at the end of the great recession, we show that they would have high and a planner rates -- employment rates. from so now i only have 15 minutes i could go on with the different graph that i could give you a summary with lower health insurance coverage and housing value high unemployment rates and i share of africans of data

collection. so this is the implication. five like to tell you for sure that it is for data collection but pdf this is not causal so i cannot make that statement that strongly but i can say knowing things about those neighborhoods so we try to find policies with the financial well-being and we can use this information somehow and instead of a coaching program we can do something more direct to

make the policy less-expensive. thank you very much to learn more you can go to our website. thank-you. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> good morning. lemon associate professor at the university of denver were i generally teach bankruptcy. before i begin thanks to professor hawkins and his

colleague to organizing this symposium which is important and timely and for hosting and for funding and organizing the symposium with the aftermath of consumer indebtedness in addition to the kremlin's asian of debtors one of the ramifications is filing for bankruptcy. that is what i studied for consumers and consumer bankruptcies so for my presentation showed a theoretical framework in the research question then get to the fun stuff which is what it is up preliminary data showing a working and progress? one i am one of the few that talks about the law indirectly most of it is from a social logical framework.

it is well taken and that what of social and cons stratification in sociology literature comes from the macro perspective we heard about that from the consumer protection bureau. also to know what they do in this paper is the micro sociological level and that is significant because the pattern of thin, inequality for large quantitative statistics reproduce themselves on the micro level between the people with face-to-face interaction and how they think about the situation and the phenomenon in find themselves. what this paper is about and what it does in is takes this perspective one through

the land of consumer bankruptcy and that the risk of boring everybody in the room my perspective is from the sociology of symbolic interaction to water that down completely is a qualitative approach to yield empirical data and the task is to get close and familiar with the people you are studying to learn about their situation. most importantly on the theory of symbolic interaction is about meaning to tease out through interviews and observations the meaning people makes in our own lives with their finest -- finances.

so part of the legal aid office i have situated myself in the office of two attorneys and colorado. i cannot name them by name but they have given me full access to observe although lawyer client interactions with the consumers seeking legal assistance for an before bankruptcy. i spent four hours a week so anyone they have an important -- an appointment with 5: offer the opportunity to set the client counseling session about this soon to be bankruptcy petition after the interview if i feel comfortable i will ask if they will sit down with me at a later date for an "in-depth" interview that last between half an hour and two hours to talk about their experiences. the goal is to understand

what they are processing and the term is how they appreciate this bankruptcy process. it is qualitative so my findings are not supposed to be representative it is a small sampling. however using the concept for coming from the narrative's hopefully they will form a theoretical framework, many consumers think of their bankruptcy cases. the research question is very simple how do people think about of bankruptcy process? many here the word and fink it is an ominous thing to be tackled the word challenged or to be fearful. they don't know much about that which is understandable .

second, how do they make the decision to file bankruptcy? and how do they gain access to the bankruptcy system? some of the people that we are interviewing are biased because they found a way to access the system and already made dade decision to file for bankruptcy but if you ask questions how they can about the the decision to do so. some demographics feel compelled to give these statistics but at this point i have spoken with 23 people which does not sound like a lot but qualitatively what is between 40 and 50 people you can see the breakdown pretty much 1/3 and 1/3 and 1/3 overwhelmingly the up

population is caucasian a small city in colorado made up of a caucasian community but there are those that use the service and african-americans use that less frequently. these demographics may not be what you think but at this point it would be unemployed but 70 percent approximately passband well they think about going through bankruptcy. but they are middle and come like hairstylist door driving for waste management or a waitress doing those types of jobs no one in my population and with the legal aid office with the cost of retaining attorneys for filing bankruptcy petitions with a general

average is probably over one bows and dollars to file with this call they simple chapter seven bankruptcy petition this charges people only five and dollars to do so and they represent from start to finish. it is a low-cost option for people to file bankruptcy which is one of the reasons they're attracted to go there in the first place. the gross monthly income based upon the bankruptcy petition, i don't think that is significant which is the disparity of these 23 people to lesseps first this total liabilities because there are one or two out lyres one:dave home fully secured by the mortgage but it is just over $9,000 which may

not be much but the liability is overwhelming compared to the asset. and don't have the means to pay back the debt they have incurred and middle-class that pdf. so the preliminary findings is where it gets interesting . the emerging concept is financial desperation mother's social logical literature in a stigmatized condition that i have written about before is a deviant condition for many people in middle income america of but the nails that i have spoken with in this population

population, particularly for fathers find it difficult to have to limit to themselves that they need to file bankruptcy for themselves and their family. they take it as a tremendous hit to their manhood and the sense of a provider, a father to their children can equate that to a great sense of failure to the point water to the father's i have spoken with botched of suicide yourself medication through alcohol because they were so despondent. perhaps this significant. we heard a lot about credit for this morning. one of the things people say about credit is the bankruptcy filers everyone of them asks how can i build up my credit backup?

and there is a is a practical reason to get a car loan and a low interest-rate but if you listen lot equate good credit with self worth. there's one woman that i spoke with literally itasca what color the color of this guy i used to have a 700 credit scored one back. it wasn't about using credit in the future but the sense of self worth and that meant something it was important to her and her identity to have a good credit score in and made her feel more worthy. second is class status and lawyers that isn't endemic to bankruptcy at all many of these people of lower middle in, are hesitant to seek the

aid of an attorney they, in jeans and sneakers and sometime shorts and they are fearful of a lawyer who is wearing a fancy suit and the expense of thai and they are what worry about being judged by the attorney that has a higher level of education and many said i thought when i came here they used to be bait and tackle nothing fancy. but to have a private attorney release delayed office because literally they thought the attorney shaking their finger in their face to say that you messed up to be in financial trouble why?

so they hold back based upon the class and knowledge. en talk about that boundary work and what they are doing is they are creating boundaries between themselves and other debtors in the narrative is i essentials eat them deserving because i am here because of a medical debt or a recent divorce that is beyond my control. to speak of a group of non deserving debtors who went to vegas to gamble and bought big screen tvs to abuse stop process but that population really edam as not exist.

if there is a moral boundary work to save face for themselves. but with self care people with medical problems are not going to the doctor to seek treatment out of fear for another medical bill one woman had debilitating lupus refuse to go to the doctor and was crying because she did not want to create another bill. so she deals with the pain and others to have psychological issues have delayed seeking treatment. very quickly with one minute left, there is a host of

literature out there of who controls the lawyer client interactions. between the lawyer and the client as a control that chapter choice but they work their based on the intercom and assets. but the choices is made by steering them and that happens that you want to do chapter seven. and then to agree with bill blair but very interesting i did ask the people that i interviewed with about post bankruptcy life they have not thought about it all very much which is scary.

that is up problem and the last one bankruptcy is a fresh start. most think it is a fresh start but many people think of na different way which is a new life with their militia -- relationships and then to move on in life in different avenues. thank you very much. >> said to have questions from the audience so if you

don't mind that long walk. >> so first what is interesting work so i would encourage you with the post bankruptcy life got me intrigued. so there is the stark contrast that the legal aid office. and there is a roll call before the meetings. and then trying to phial chapter 13 because the plan

did not succeed in diffuse these any differences and with most leave chapter seven but with the debt collection i have fascinating data that is a compelling story coming out of that data and i am curious to what extent the delinquency or debt collection practices vary reason to believe that it is more active than others? i just don't know the answer to that but in the case they are defaulting more frequently? or that the collection

agencies are more active in areas they and others? >> they are not to be generalized. so to have a sense of thulium speaking with from this is only the first of a larger series of papers that may address what your concerns are. first when i finished do this same cannot in the legal aid office setting. to see if the interactions are any different if they have any other different cautiousness i have some preliminary ideas. and again when this is done to do with longitudinal study -- steady how they are

managing post a bank receipt many don't have a plan and that is it. so if you don't increase your income or expenses soared to both you may find yourself in the same position for five years down the road. >> thanks for your question. so to have delinquent as the outcome but then we've realized it was very similar . so for this reason we thought that david collection was related as three decided to focus on data collection. so with those regions and

all these the we have shown. >> i just want to comment on the bankruptcy i grew been of bible belt through the '90s that bankruptcy is the failure one and i practice law 910 1/7 problems is that god will not be mad at them if they file bankruptcy. but would you believe? >> it is interesting that you last that question but

not what you think. there is a in the delayed officer and a church that has 10,000 members. and some of the people from legal aid office and i think they will say exactly negative i am of bad person. with the pastor of the clergy and actually they look at the of balanchine did is okay to file for bankruptcy there is no shame involved for but did this the church that gives them the okay to do and i would not have expected that.

but at what point as you pass a bankruptcy law during the counseling session is after this in is all over you have to find a way to have more income or both you need to do both to increase your expenses to find yourself filing in the future. >> so to see them in the first appointment with of lawyer to think about their finances to get the financial information down there on doc process that this is before the process starts. but you are right but it

doesn't do much of the job of telling them what to do but it is interesting many have not thought about it beset temporary part that is concerning. >> so i want to ask why will that help to have financial coaching youth of problem is medical that or her unemployment? that match savings probe point -- program makes sense but it doesn't make much sense to me and i have a few comments so what about devalue of a loaf igo scored to the high risk consumers

if not becoming indebted? and then having to file for bankruptcy? that does make a high risk and also with that parallel between this information me to have more race discrimination when day came into effect they are more likely to hire african-americans because they are more likely to litigate and the fact that we know that for that expressive purpose and the