>> he works with death penalty prisoners, has been very effective and backed into it also. he didn't start wanting to do that, stumbled into it is >> "death on hold: a prisoner's desperate prayer and the unlikely family who became god's answer" is the name of the book. at the burton folsom and anita folsom, the website one more time. >> deathonholdbook.com. >> booktv is on twitter and facebook and we want to hear from you. sweet us, twitter.com/booktv or post a comment on our facebook page facebook.com/. >> with donald trump elected the next us president, aren't nation

of second foreign-born first lady since louisa catherine adams. to learn more about the influence of america's presidential spouses from c-span's first ladies, the book is a look at the personal lives and influence of every presidential spouse in american history. a companion to c-span's well-regarded biography tv series and features interviews with 54 of the nation's leading first ladies, historians, biographies and 45 first ladies and archival photos from each of their lives, first ladies published by public affairs is available wherever you buy books and now available in paperback. >> now introduce you to paul marino. a professor at hillsdale college and the author of this book, the bureaucrat kings. the origins and underpinnings of america's bureaucratic state.

on page one of your book you write the united states is by establishment nowhere mentioned in the constitution. >> guest: the fourth branch of government which in a way is a combination of the other three branches. that is the heart of the constitutional problem. the original constitution was founded on separation of powers, the most important structural feature of the constitution. in the 20th century we developed an administrative apparatus, the environmental protection agency, federal communications commission, most of this started with the new deal and they combined legislative, executive and judicial power, what madison called the problem we faced. >> host: congress passed and a law, the president signs it. what happens next? >> congress passes a law, congress doesn't, they don't

legislate, they delegate. they allow these people nobody has voted for, congress tell them you write the's, you make the laws, give them a very vague aspiration, one's clean-air or no discrimination or a fair railroad rate and allow those people who are supposed to be the experts to make the rules to make the laws. what they do for the most part is sit back and intervene in individual tapes were constituents get in trouble with the constituent service which is more helpful to them getting elected. easier than the hard job making policy choices and legislating for the whole problem is congress doesn't legislate, not doing its fundamental constitutional job. >> host: has the creep or increase in the bureaucratic state been explicit, implicit,

slow? >> guest: in waves, the first burst in the progressive era 100 years ago, woodrow wilson who was a political scientist before he was president, giving america a new style administrative statement, the biggest thrust came with fdr after the great depression and periodically a reaction, great increases in governmental power, americans have second thoughts and the conservative reaction. the next was great society in the 1960s with johnson and the obama administration brought the affordable care act, the dodd-frank act, monuments, they really are qualitatively a new step in the development of an american state the europeans had estate for much longer.

>> host: how has this affected you and i and everyone else on an individual basis? >> guest: people don't meet bureaucrats face-to-face but life is affected by pools these people make and anything that involves your health care is increasingly dictated by health and human services. if you want to apply for a job, there are all kinds of requirements and regulations and employers especially have to comply with all kinds of red tape, compliance costs, federal regulators growing exponentially. education in schools are being managed, schools used to be the quintessential local institution where americans govern themselves in school houses and these are being dictated by washington so every aspect of life now is shaped by rules

effectively laws that are made and enforced by people nobody knows, they don't vote for or accountable to them or think they know how to manage the lives of ordinary americans better than ordinary americans themselves. >> host: you use the radio apps. >> guest: herbert hoover has gone down in history as a laissez-faire 19th-century american conservative was actually a progressive. the radio apps, initially gave the federal radio commission the power to issue licenses to people, if you want to operate a radio. according to their sense of public convenience, these people got to decide whether the public needed a radio outlet in a certain locality. that is a tremendously powerful

power they had. newspapers were relatively unregulated. radio ended up being a more politically manipulated form of media the newspapers, no accident newspapers were critical of the new deal, then radio. because radio operators were licensed to be contingents whether you play the administration once it. an early example of political dangers with licensing. >> what you are describing as the federal size of the federal government -- >> the federal government employed personnel, not much since world war zero make because the federal government gets the states to do most of this, almost all federal

regulatory programs give money to the states and states have to comply with federal regulations, states are the ones administering these programs would people haven't noticed the growth of the federal government in terms of personnel being carried out through agencies and getting private institutions for officers, full-time job in compliance with federal regulations the government made the enforcement of this through state and private parties. >> what is the role of the federal register? >> guest: compilation of regulations. it wasn't even started until 1935. one central place people go to see what regulations are and in the old days congress passed a statute, tremendously important statutes, three or four pages,

the federal register, tends of thousands of pages every year. the record with 80,000 pages in one year in the 1980s and we broke that record in 2015 so 100,000 pages and federal regulations, the important thing about that is even those are only the formally published regulations, federal regulators do so much just by informal memoranda of understanding that are not published, subtle ways that don't leave any official footprint in the record, federal register is the tip of the iceberg, no one can keep up with it. big companies have to hire people whose lawyers and specialty have to do with specific aspects of their business. >> host: in your view the growth of the bureaucratic state as you call it could be attributed to congress? >> congress's dereliction of

duty, unwillingness to legislate, to make the hard choices, they have taken the easy way out because their fundamental interests is getting reelected and they find the current system increases that. even that would appear delegation of legislative power congress giving away its power, congress is more powerful and more likely to stay in office under this system, the house of representatives has an incompetency rate higher than the house of lords come a they established themselves as a permanent class as well. they did their job, the concern was congress was interfering in the day-to-day administration of government so we had problems on both end of this delegating too much power and micromanaging too much. the