[applause] >> c-span where history unfolds daily. in 1979, c-span was created as a public service by america's kraibl television companies. and is brog to you today by your cable or satellite provider. booktvafter wards program is next gary young reports on gun deaths in america with over a 24-hour period.

hi gary thanks for coming today i'm really excited i really, read is so excited to talk to you so i'm going to ask you an easy question you've been in the who's you wrote this. can do so many other dimplet bocks. why this one? >> well, i've done this as exercise of the guardian magazine a paper that i work for in twerch and i did that at the time, i thought this could be a book. so every day at the time it was every day, now come down to seven and i was tossed with finding children on that day in 2007 and i was blown away by so many of these stories many of which didn't really make the local news and i felt this could be a book so when i got the opportunity a few years later to

ask about the book and -- it's one of the things that foreign people don't understand about america is culture i'm not sure i ever fully understood it. and yet by the time i had finished a book i had been in country for is 12 years and two american children, my wife is american. for a long time i assumed that i was going to live here in the end i move back to england and so i -- i had in the game. >> so let's go back a little bit. because usually talking to americans somewhere i end up getting a lot of question bs all kinds of things that are unique to american so coming into the project that long feature you did. what was your sense of american

gone culture? >> i think i haven't quite understood just -- i had assumed that mass shootings which are the things that get most tension that that was how most young people died. and i didn't really haven't given thought to people around the country who would be killed in this -- in this way. and so the accidental shoot, thed to already who finds -- behind the pillow is asleep, friends who are fighting accidents all of these kind of -- oh. okay so this is going on all of the time, so that feature you

see in the news every two or three days before the weather and in several places it can go on all of the time every day. so it -- forces the kind of readjustment of your understanding of where you are. >> right. well i find it interesting you were endeavoring to correct context right because we have a lot of official reports an crime. the fbi. the cia, everyone of the d.o.j. members everywhere, but what i saw you doing reading meticulously was trying to figure out what is it about these environments so do you talk a little bit about the context that you found. >> yeah, so i mean so ten children were shot dead that day which was november the 25th,2013 a inwith each one what had i

tried to do there was the fact of their death and i wasn't trying to litigate their death or maybe he was walking from east to left. i took -- >> wasn't forensics. wasn't csi. but then -- in all of these case there was a context there was a kind of it shall and sometimes a broader theme. but everywhere there was a context of what had else is going on. who else can can i talk to? so just to give a couple of examples in newark where a young man had gary anderson shot dead coming into his -- apartment with his girlfriend, he's shot dead he's assumed that killer thought he was somebody else. j right. >> and that it was drug related. and they thought he had a red hoodie and pat they're looking for him this a red hoodie and

plaid. and then you look at where he was shot dead and locked up housing projects near where he lives, so you -- where his mother lived that's where he was shot deeds. and this is where he u grow up, and next door is a factory that's been closed down. start looking at this -- statistics and you see the -- painful industrialization and in that context selling drugs becomes a occupation of one might get into, for a few moments you see drug gangs are -- about up more or less like a classic american corporation and free economics it compares to mcdonald's, and so just to say look to excuse anything but to say this is what was going on around that time and --

and place and for every young person in this book, there is -- there are those to fame who want to say well to excuse sometimes not even to explain but just to describe that these deaths do not generally fall out of the sky. they are kind of -- set of circumstances have collided and coincided to make them possible. >> right. and that's one of myths about the inner city quote unquote but you also found you know similar circumstances in suburbia where just access to guns -- >> i mean, right. so i'm trying to think how many, the children only one who was killed in a rural area. but then i think there are a

couple of who were killed in either suburbs or small towns, about very small tons. basically nobody is immune to this. there's a sense that somebody should be and areas, low income areas of where people of color live that that is where things leak this happen, and that if a young person is shot dead in one of those areas, it doesn't challenge your understanding of the way america works but it confirms it. and speak to a journalist you say did you think to follow-up a little bit not so surprising that someone would get shot in that area so becomes not news you know there's that -- phrase when dog bites man that's not news. it is when man bites dog, but ever a while aloft people are shot and you have to ask well who owns these dogs and why do

these dogs bite the same people and what can we do about dogs so a reporter said you become desensitized a little bit. but people living there don't because it's their children who are at risk. >> absolutely. >> so i'm going to read a little bit from the samuel bright one chapter, because this really caught my eye. you said that -- the difference that plagues some is let it neglect than born from deadweight that make it is dark in america invisible that's a pretty big finger that you're pointing right there. >> it is, it is, but it's the -- , you know, if it fits wear it kind of -- i'm talking there mostly about the media.

and you're in a media overwhelmingly white and wealthy and therefore is not likely to live in areas like this, then -- it's not you don't think about these people but you don't know nobody they be who has been shot but not happening to or your neighborhood but it's happening over there and so that deadweight of privilege of being wealthier, being -- of white and all of the things that coalesce to make you who you are leaves you thition well -- this is something that happens to people like that.

after a while that germans it is not just -- there are a different species but in that chapter with samuel within of the first comments after his death is a woman, family was walking down the road and he shot dead after 11 in that pleasant grove in dallas which is kind of a poor back in latino area, and with a representation for being violent. and say well you know what, i know where my children are all of the time and you've got to ask what his parents are doing that they don't know where he's running look he's kind of not taking control. and then you find out the situation. they drink cocoa that nigh and played uno worst thing he did was cheat at uno, they were -- they watch we're "the millers" and then samuel decided to walk

his friend home. to denzel's grandmother who lives six minutes away and next day den disel going to take him to church and that's what they do when they got shot. not that his mother didn't know where he was but couldn't save him. he was a sweet kid who tonight really know anybody in the area. who had no kind affiliation of y kind but first place that somebody goes is wow it shall you know, there must be a reason -- why that kid was shot. and i'm going to say it's their parents. >> well that bring me to one of the things that i noticed about the book which is that you really challenged respectability politics leak you really challenge the notion that -- thengs like this shouldn't happen in some places and to some people but that, of course, we expect them to happen to people in other places, and that is one of the themes that come about what

you talk about young activist the fact that we do need to talk about why it is so easy to dismiss the violence that goes on, so i want to read you again, another piece on this that i thought really capture you writing that mills chapter, this shouldn't happen to people look this. and then you say sandy hook children and adults that that began to transform people that elevation of the worthy victims had had significant why those affected but gun violence do not align themselveses with the gun control movement and that he gets it when i saw that. do you explain how you came to that realization? >> yeah, so kenneth shot in indianapolis african-american

oldest person less than a week away from his 20th birthday, and four were five months later there's the -- convention there and the gun control movement comes as every one for gun safety, and i'm trying to find kenneth -- folks and i think maybe there was a press conference all about gun control. and now, it is black and half of the gun victims in indianapolis are black. and the person is a white lady from caramel a wealthy suburb, and she talks about sandy hook and momma bear and her babies, and you kind of think who are you protect them from? but reject them from people like kenneth and that i think for the

gun control movement to have a sense of urgency and relevance it has to be ed in the community most likely to be affected by gun violence and those are black working cast communities and latino communities. there are also places where african-americans and latinos are more likely to be criminalized that african-americans they'll use any drug apart from crack any more than white americans that's where americans more likely to use them and go to jail for them. so the fact that someone has a criminal record is not actually some kind of nigh central statistic or some neutral indicator that's how the system works but if you're only looking for innocence and babes and then you're not going to find them in those communities, and so you have to move from i think --

a narrative that say this is shouldn't happen to kids like this, to this shouldn't happen to kids. >> period. >> period. and -- have an understanding of why some kids end in the places they do which is, you know, schools and -- infrastructure when, you know, lack of day care and so why i think it's not possible to only talk about guns. this is the kind of broader societal thing which counts people out dehumanizes them that means that when their life is taken, well, that's already been -- accounted for. but yeah i think that there's a real problem once you start saying, well he was an a student. then those are suggestionings that there's grade that you can get where it would be worthy for

them to be kill. somebody tweeted to the day after he was shot dead, that the daughter of the olympic -- springter and he said she was out 3:00 in the morning how much of an innocent victim was she? then what of the day would it be proarpght for a 15-year-old girl shob shot dead, 11, 12 what's the curfew after which these areas become shooting gallery and everybody who is killed there is guilty? >> so that actually is a great way to segue into a question that i have for you, and i promise not to ask -- you know any hard politic questions but there is especially mac deem ya a line of thought that says that we should declare gun violence a health a national health crisis, and assigned cdc, of 100 million dollars go study it. come back with real tangible,

you know, data and real tangible actionable items anden will to you talking about the con -- characteristic tas lead to or result in this i'm thinking maybe that's the academic. >> how it whatted in chicago he has a map of where the gun is taking place, and that concentrated the same for color and it's -- he was ep epidemiologist, and here's the thing cdc used to do research because it -- is biggest curer of black -- men

of the heart disease. with that period, and second biggest killer of all kids at age of 19 after traffic. >> yep. >> so 2,000 deaths a year which is -- imageable. it's a city that is like a city disappearing every time. >> yeah. so then -- the question is well, with what should we do about that? now, there is a line of thought that says we should do nothing about that because that is our right it is in second amendment you know that's it. but if one doesn't subscribe only to that view and you worry about this, then there has to be research why this happens and why it happens to, you know, these people opposed to these people and these opposed to those people. cdc used to do that, and then --

the nra will be hard against it saying that it was treating guns as a health issue, and now they don't basically. >> right. >> and -- my response to that is only for those people who don't want to do it who think they shouldn't do it then it tell me some other way, some other meaningful way in which you stop these children dying. >> right. i don't to argue about the second amendment because i don't know if that argument will go anywhere. but i will argue about these kids because my kids are american. i don't them running these risks. and -- even as they wrnts it's unacceptable intolerable toll to -- this is what you don't want to

do. what do you wants to do? >> that actually brings me to -- you saying that gun enthusiast that they need a better story. right that -- that is not that relevant we don't live in those times so basically it comes down to marketing so you're a professional story teller, what story would you advise them or they ask you to compose with them. >> to come up with people in i feel that gun control people have a bigger problem actually. government lobby poem they can say here's what they said when you gun lobby poem and they say i don't understand it, explain it to me. they say do you have a wife? first thing, are you married? do you have children? imagine someone breaks into your house and shoot your wife and kill your kids what are you going to do wait and call the police? you know, and there they have an appeal to masculinity individual

and home stand. [inaudible] and most killed by guns actually shoot themselves. after that, you're most likely to be killed by someone is that you know, to actually what they should be saying is are you married? watch out for your wife because she may kill you that's the fern most likely to kill you but -- [laughter] so they have the kind of narratives that is ed in many ways in american culture. talk about whether we like that narrative or not u but it poidz a home with other kind of

broader themes. i have a gun control people have a bigger problem because they talk about background check that's a sensible thing even if you're abiding by second religiously and have a particular interpretation of it and well regulated. and background which cans are popular and you know -- >> a waiting period all of that kind of stuff. so that doesn't add up to i think america has to imagine itself differently in -- and as a kind of more compassionate collective country and i think i do think one to say look we are a modern country and live in medieval problem. we are also thinking one that --

takes seriously as a collective endeavor not just a family but person who collect them raising children that there are certain things that children need. they need space. they need decent education. they need youth centers. you know, they need these things of family one i spoke to on south side of chicago who is a physician. she said well the way that these neighborhoods are are tough is that they put them in a cocoon they drive them everywhere. they don't let them out. they, you know, they drive to school, they drive them home. if they're in any after-school

school they drive them there, and back and first of all if you have the time in there ab and energy and resourcessed to that you probably don't live in that area. but secondly, that would take children's youth away from them, and in order to keep them alive so you have someone, i bet in some detail like george bush and drugs and cocaine, and other things he says when i was young and response when i was young is irresponsible that's a good line and you -- cameron british prime minister and now foreign secretary were in a supper club called the bullington club and they would get dressed and bow tie and tail, they would go to a restaurant, they would eat their fill and get very drunk. they would trash the restaurant. they would pay for everything in cash. in full. but this was part of being in

this club. now, when you're rich, you can do that. >> right and main maybe one of them will spend a thight in the cells but all part -- >> ritual. kids don't have bad luxury. you got -- one back here to the common -- that could be you dead. you -- decide to walk your friend home that could be you. not a question of you getting into a bad crowd and maybe you startation marijuana or maybe you have bad relation, you know, a bad relationship begin to background. you could die. so the margins are narrow. risks are great. and these are american children. i was just on a radio program where somebody said if you took four or five cities out of

america, this whole problem would kind of be reduced and like what if you took four our five it wouldn't be america anymore. chicago, st. louis, you know, new york, louisiana, detroit. okay take us out of america what are you left with? so not that the rest of the america isn't important but the notion that well -- you know, let imagine america without these places, no. why qowld you? why would you want to? : because right now there's a lot of warp nostalgia for an america -- that was most moved to imaginar- [laughter] very reare stricted certain segment of the population. but -- geography can be misleading so let's talk about the mapping of this book and geography because as a journalist i know there are

a thousand choices you had to make before you even began to like this in terms of your prep race so how did geography, location, city versus rule all of that -- vast country how did that play into it? >> well the day kids -- so my challenge was first of all -- to evoke this space whatever this space was to kind of it life as a reducer but also to reduce it in some ways to its statistic kl kind of deaf neglection almost. definition and the range was quite substantial. you know, so rural michigan off of that road -- off a dirt road kind of, you

know, you can see the stars there. i mean, he's -- dark and rural. and that's the only place where people know it's hunting system in the whole book and then that area they're all going hunt and you don't church has dinner for hunting wid toe for wise hunters because they're all off. and compare that to houston with a pee oil yards during the oil boom and they were all kind of hip didn't exist then but for kind of young -- about wealthy people yuppy and then swimming pool and thrtd be people given a free vcr when they took a flat, no children

were allowed. and then oil crash comes and say okay this is -- allowed and for people like edwin mother is undted. live in those areas but fool is still there. green gunk but still there, and i think that -- disco is now kind of laundry room, and anyhow so these very, very kind of different spaces and so each time trying to kind of -- find the history of them -- where one is killed you know, with mapping how different places have, you know, how the spanish and the mexico america

how, you know, it's changed handle. but then also to give a sense of -- just like you know what? in this area of san jose even though kind of working class latino folks house is worth six times the house in new york. like this is a big country and the landscape both social, demographic, political, economic, it is very, very diverse, and hopefully that comes through in the book is this kind of the day is a character in the book. but also this kind of vast american landscape. >> that definitely comes through, and talking about neighborhoods i'm always fascinating i'm an immigrant

myself. >> where are you from? >> dominican republic. >> where are you really from? [laughter] but i grew up in new york city in the late 80s, and when we moved in at that point was mostly latinos dominican, puerto rican, but later it was a lot of mexican, now it is -- but a lot of same problems that were there in the 60s and 70s remained in pockets right less noticeable mow. so i want to ask you about whether you think geography plays such a role in that it can -- ignore the population and maintain some of these violent identifiers, right, or do the transition between the occupant and the residents is this something that gets passed don like looking for example of gangs in west coast and places like chicago, and even new york we've got gangs there too.

but you are essentially styles born into a gang. >> yeah. >> you know? >> yes, quiet, writing this book completely -- transformed my understanding of what gang-related means. because there is an assumption there was a desire to dismiss as many as possible of these -- of gang related. well, one can argue on one level that maybe one seven of these in the 10 in so far as one or both of the people involved you know and their victim were in a gang. and the person is dead so a gang-related shooting.

but actually if both people, if one of the people is in a gang, and other one isn't, and they go sharp, that's not gang related, no, that's a -- that's a murder in which one person is really in a gang, and they're in the same gang anyway. you know, all, but yeah, they're sent. if a child in san jose that he lives there and i think the color is red that they identify with they said he was not warring red but a friend was wearing red walking by the road wearing black. his fred is wearing retd, someone shoots at them. they don't get his friend. they gets him. well that gang related? well, to the extent that it

seems from the person who is accused that they might be from a rival gang and they shot at someone who looked like they were from the gang. maybe nothing to do with -- droa wasn't wearing red is that gang related or is it -- a stray bullet but most of these are complicated and gang related a waif not really thinking it be and a lot of these kids grow up in gangs in the same way that if you were in the soviet union you would have a communist parties and if you were in -- iraq you would be in a baath party. you kind of -- the gang dmiements the block where you live and so everybody has some kind of relationship to the gang. now, it could be that you have a

minimal relationship to the gang but you wear with blue socks whatever it is that you have to do to kind of be like leave me alone or don't wear retd whatever, whatever -- it cub that you say i'm against gangs and never going to do anything, you know, ever anything to do with a gang but then you still have to live there and how do you live there in so -- it's not like affiliation, they don't hand out membership cards and then people pay their dues. they don't work like that. and so -- to me when i see term gang related i understand it -- differently. i would have said to people, well what about is the relationship between the murder and the gang? and what is the relationship

most particularly between the victim and the gang because let's i'm walking with down the road. i don't belong to a gang and gang -- but you're wearing red. wearing retd and somebody shoots me, and they say well that's gang related. well, you know how does that relate to me and how an awful lot of deaths are, not i think -- less likely pursued by the police and less likely coffered by the press, and they are more likely to be dismissed bit general public as being something that happens to people look that. who do things like that. >> right, and then -- what i hope comes out in the book is like -- well, these are not these kids are not that different for the most part from the kind of kids that you know.

>> right. >> that might craft duty of egg stocks kind of sexual egg drug are experimentation getting girls through their window. not mowing when father asked them to. and "duck dynasty" a big thing for younger kids. twitter, facebook these are america's children and if you can dismiss them then you dismiss them in the future. >> let's talk about gang affiliation because i'm learning aside i write more about you suggest is that -- it's actually a convenient term that allows adults to cut punishment so for example in san jose, california, in the entire state of california, they have these thingses called gang enhancements so that if you're charged with a crime that is somehow related to being in a

gang. they're automatic enhancement which is is a very ironic time that means decial punishment so where as you might have been to a misdemeanor, maybe that comes with a six you know a six month of probation, little minute of their had able to tag it to a gang related activity it becomings minimum two years minimum three yore and judge has to ability to lessen that sentence buzz it is now legislated gang enhancement so what did you find basically there's abyss between what gang related means in real life and what gang related or any other kind of language that means in the legal system and way that that's utilized it toll -- and that punishment. >> well, you can -- what i found is you can do anything you want with that. you can say this person was wearing red that may mean --

may be about gangs. it might be about laundry. you doajt know. you don't know so a couple of parents like pedro also justin in the end they're watching to see how much red or how much u blue they're wearing. and both of them talk about hiding certain colors of clothing and for the kids -- sometimes it's like well, part-time going to have to wear red in order to get through the day. so it's not leak there wasn't sthung -- going on. you need rules and as soon as you start applying rules those they thinks are going to fall apart. why is that kid wearing red in the gang and this kid is wearing red not in the gang?

and are we in a place where -- wearing red is illegal or holding your fingers in a certain way is a gang sign or is kind of a -- sufficient proof to, you know, put someone away? then comes to the second thing which is the book did you want really go into this apart from in as far as gun related gang related becomes a slair in the dead. but that it's not like if you put me in prison you keep them away frommening gas, actually, prison has a gang culture all of his own and actually that would be a way to o

submit their relationship to gang and criminal chancement adjustments much like -- usually in the second amendment they don't really engage with the issue which is why our children join in reorganizations that link to criminal act. some always have and not just -- not racial or not ewe knock to america even. but why they're doing it and what could we provide them what could we do to stop this happening? as opposed to how do we punish this? really gets through to the problem. only right, right. i want to talk to you a little bit about your methodology. because i had questions i was like i don't know if i would have made that same choice so for kenneth mills family was clear they didn't want to talk to you

or you contacting them, and you chronicle all of that really well with so i was able to follow you through the constant rejection but you decided to write about him and so i thought okay -- i was reading would i have made the same choice right -- >> would you have written about him? >> yes. >> why did you -- >> i think i wrote about him from what was in public record and they -- never said why. i mean, i -- i found his grandparents by matching their names to people on the white pages in indianapolis and then looking for folk it was a fairly common name but i looked america's officially segregated that you can think where black people live i'll try here.

so i found the number. i called them. they're actually kind of quiet up for -- initial conversation. they give me his father's number. and then i made the mistake i think of calling his father. i should have texted him of calling father catching him offguard saying i would look to you about your son and he was wrong footed and he never called me back. never said no, he never did, and then -- the grandparents when i came to indianapolis for the mra convention i called them a couple of times and then they call me and they said don't call again. so first of all they didn't say dongt do this. and secondly even if they -- had all of the things i know

about public records for this in the public record is twitter feed, facebook page. an arrest warrant and newspaper clipping and tin instant report and he already exist publicly. and i think that issue for me is do you treat these people with respect? more tricky is another child who the one parent does talk to me. they give me the number of the other parent and the other participants leaves blistering message on the upon saying i'm going to get my lawyer and wreg this bock to make money off of my child and how dare you, and m

not even filling in the more colorful language my feeling about what was, i mean, first of all that probably record. second one of the parents spoken to me and was already -- i didn't, you know, i did the same thing for every parent. i would present them with a request. and if i would say i know how your child died and love to learn how they lifed and who they were everything, anything that you would like to they will me about them i would love to hear. i'd love to get the copy i did in 2007 where possible i would give them a copy of my previous -- last book which was about my dream speech. and i would say -- this is who i am. would you like to talk? and that's what i did with -- this child's and i said yes and they give me other parents

number and they were like -- no. so -- [laughter] so once again i felt that -- i don't feel entitled to any of these -- testimony of the parent. but i -- i think that things that are in the public do main exist. chghts you must have had ream and boxes of documents and all kinds of things, so what was the process of the light of sifting through and making this critical choice for the sake of the story? >> that was difficult. that was difficult. because there are things that you read that might be embarrassing to the family there might be thaings you learn that

are difficult and that you have to weigh is this important to te story? is this hurtful to the family? and for everyone where it was possible i would send them a quote this is what you said, and if i thought there was something -- that in a couple of cases where thought there was something is where they might be happy about -- i said i'm going to use this. is that okay with you? and then otherwise you have to trust that you understand people eetion dignity and that these are in a few ways vulnerable people who lost their child and they're not used to being in the limelight.

and so you have to proceed with caution. i don't think was cavalier with any of their stories, and their feedback have had from -- four of the families now is if they are happy with their treatment and defendant to get ahold of them. but the ones that i have been able get ahold of -- i haven't heard from any yet, and i will have to do with that. and that's -- a difference between inaccurate and being unfair or being

something don't like. >> unfair. my mother died quite young. she would not have liked people to have prescribed her house as being a messy house. but it was a messy house. and that would have been an accurate description and wouldn't have been unfair. it might have been unnecessary and that would have been different. but so -- you know, it's there are very tricky lines to walk. i hope that i've done it sensibly, and that probable way in economy haven't been sensitive i don't know about. did you ever fear in the process of discovery and writing and publishing that you might accidentally incriminate because some are on selves. >> inkrill --

>> like showing my mom put together in the way that you put it together. >> people know who say he did it -- but the people who did it i'm not, i'm not been -- >> identified or brought to justice, so on. and you have to be very careful about that. trying to think how many -- his name around and aired -- allow. s i think there were two where people say they knew, they knew who did it but one in particular it was in quoit a small town where the father said yeah, you know, i've seen that kid.

i know who he is, but not going to do anything about it. >> okay all right i want to ask you about what i'm timing secondary characters buzz you talk to a lot of people who were not there when the death happened who were not necessarily related to their victims. but who somehow where integral to the morning process something that high school counselor, for example -- >> mario so in that case all of the people who were best friends or you know friends who grew up with parents things like that. so can you talk about extended network of three that happened. >> yeah, so in quite a few cases -- it actually comes with trying to find the family so ten kids died.

eight of them found -- in the few cases that just going straight to their house it was, you know, from the funeral parlor or -- yeah a counselor or someone who knew them who posted something on facebook. you know how i can get in touch with so and so. and you know, these kids aren't just raised by their parents but kind of, you know, there's a support network out there for them who, you know, want to sustain them and who know them in dichght different by answer i'm thinking has to show absent a god mother -- who comes from very have hard to reach communities and groups where people frankly are are not just going to kind of open up to, you know, foreign journalist

kind of wonder into a kier air on south side of chicago saying anybody, come chat. all right. and so his god wanted to tell a story, and you know, i could tell from my facebook post of how much she loved him that there was this connection there. i thought this was someone and you know, i hope with a lot of these case where is man you can introduce yourself, and it doesn't always work out like that. but that i think kind of extended their work preacher, teacher, basketball coach very port because parents often i know from growing up, my mother probably -- my mother knew me longest as in a room. but didn't necessarily know me

best. you know, and there was certain elements that the sheeted she would have known but 16 or 17 i'm not sure i want to know all that my kid when they get to that age do. so -- threaten you have to look elsewhere for those stories. >> okay. did anyone give you conflicting stories of then you had to find the middle grouped for -- you know -- >> either conflicting more often it was partial story. it was kind of like -- oh. okay so i spoke to others and then they would have this kind of slight yay, he had no trouble really -- you know, certainly no recently. you know, or when i spoke to one

of the friends he was like jell a little bit. and then like he was? and it was like yeah -- and kind of maybe -- kind of like yeah, could have been. whatever. so in that moment i i have to decide do i want to pursue this sometime use do, sometime use don't. i didn't have this alone. i always think i want to know, and so i own it saying you know, seems like he was in jail. could be for three, could have for six. like, nobody is really talking about that. it -- i guess because it didn't seem i spoke to a fair few people who

knew him. who didn't seem to be a defiling thing about him and it wasn't remember he wement to jail, you know, and same way a parent would not want to share that with me. but i know something usual to know -- a few of those or yeah,on, someone suspended from school and you're like what for? an kind of like quickly beings fuzzy. and you get a sense that -- after a few conversations with different people, i decide from what i've heard it was something stupid. it wasn't something terrible. and i can litigate is. i can find a way to get to the bottom of it. i can pursue it. i can be kind of --

and that's my call. your honor, and some of those things i do. no, actually i can't. i need to know what happened here. other things you think oh, okay. so i'll ask but when the it hasy answer cools back, i'm like okay this is third time i've heard that -- form of words that doesn't really make sense. [laughter] i'm just going move on. j right. you're with like i got it. dave, not subtle right now. [laughter] yeah. so you know final question what do you know now after having gone through this and written it, and having distance to think about it. what do you really, really know with absolutely certainty that you didn't know before? >> i'm going to say -- three things. first of all, i know now that i

didn't know before that african-american in particular african-american parents carry around the fear of their children might be shot dead. that this is a -- victory if low income community that tile and again you hear them say really when i ask them do you think this can happen? then like samuel mom says i don't think it will be him but his brother. you know, their four, you know not doing job job as black friday in new york, right -- if you don't think your kid could be shot. every sedge black parent had factored that into their parenting. i didn't know that. i was a black parent. i'm a black parent buts i a black parent here, and then you think aye, i considered this, i have kind of, you know, so there was that, and in other words the second one was the degree