governance, although that's what many are focused on, but also on a quality of the government because if we don't have more accountable responses transparent and effective government it will not be sustainable. it will face more challenge and will break down again. conflicts suppressed will be reemerged so we have to think about the quality of government. it's probably no surprise to any of you that i think liberal democracy is far more likely than any other regime to generate accountable transparent government, but that passed between them region today and liberal democracy is neither swift nor linear and the investor can testify to that although i think he and the justice made impressive progress.

the paper lays out a few practical ways to begin rebuilding the basis for that kind of government and let me just mention to key insights. first come i don't think the question we face regarding how to build this new order is about territory or state borders or where lines are drawn. it's about what happens within those lines. remember, it's about social trusts. there is no line you can draw between shia and sunni and just as the creation does not magically resolve the conflicts inside sudan or south sudan. division will not automatically resolve the conflicts within iraq or syria. it's also not about institution building. after a military victory in iraq and afghanistan the us and our allies spent a lot of time standing up new institutions and the ideas that you build

this machine of government and you calculated the start the gears turning and it should go, but i think we learned from these last years that building institutions is not enough. it matters how those institutions are populated and by whom. are they inclusive of everyone with a stake in the process? do they have a process that people think is fair and transparent? that brings me to the other insight that i want to leave you with before we have a broader conversation, which is that what's most important to affective sustainable governance, to affected sustainable institutions in the middle east today is dialogue and conflict resolution. it seems like an obvious thing to say. the old line that war is

a continuation of politics by other means, but it is true. i think it's a basic beginning aspiration for the future of the middle east to shift complex that are now underway in a violent channel into a nonviolent channel and also to pay special attention to those places where political conflict is being suppressed, where dialogue is being suppressed for fear that those places may become violent if there is no room or capacity or no institutions and form for peaceful dialogue and peaceful politics. finally, it's adjust to me that sustainable governments in the middle east in the future will be much more decentralized than it's been in the past because you don't rebuild social trust from the top down. you rebuild it from the bottom up. there is a broader need to build governance in a way that citizens can

see and feel and buy into and i think we already see a number of experiments across the region in more decentralized government whether the empowerment of elected councils in morocco or the way in which lebanese have managed their governance needs in the absence of a president until very recently. or the way the government in baghdad is struggling in the areas that are about to be liberated from isis. so, i think local governance is what we need to focus on if we want to replace violence and mistrust. with that, let me stop and i look forward to our conversation. >> let me just think-- say, thank you, tammy. it's a great paper and i urge you to read it. here's what we will do for the rest of the time amr hamzawy will speak

for about 10 minutes or so and then we will have a conversation appear with some broad questions and we will go probably until about five minutes of 4:00 p.m. or 4:00 p.m. we will then throw it open for questions, comments from the audience and we will and probably at 4:30 p.m. about how we plan to use the time available to us. amr hamzawy, over to you >> think you. it is a pleasure to be here. thank you for having me on the panel and it's a pleasure to join the panel. it's a great paper and i would like to congratulate tammy and the working group on a spot on analysis with great insight on how to look at middle eastern politics.

so, i'm going to follow steve's recommendation and recommend everyone to take a look at the paper. it offers a detailed analysis. it seems to give us a great overview over what's been happening in the region since the 1960s. in that spirit, and to engage the paper i'm going to underline three forms, which i feel are relevant and building on insights and recommendations. number one, and through the analysis with regard to lost trust between state institutions and it's a very wide spectrum, all the way from north africa to

monarchies, on the way from countries which have done better socioeconomically and some that have been suffering from poverty and so on and so forth, so clearly we have been having lots of trust in state institutions cannot evolve-- [inaudible] >> we did see conversation between religious and secular. we did see based on socioeconomic and

conflict between the haves and have-nots, but this did not add up to an alternative vision for state society. what we were looking at was social context that was collapsing and social context it to be found. i believe it has not changed in the last five years and the very fact we are still looking at -- [inaudible] >> the very fact we are still looking at the region and the dynamics of the last five years where we do not have

been social contracts. number one, how to bridge the gap between state institutions and citizens. the first key point i think we need to look at is the question of social capitalist. look at how society generates social capitalism. social capitalism never comes top down and to be bottom-up. as we look at the fabric of middle eastern society-- i'm not an expert on iran, but the only way to imagine social capitalism emerging is redefining the relationship between state institutions and populations in society

is to focus on civil society. if we are looking at state institutions away from the collapse where trust has been lost and legitimacy is questioned and if we do not have-- [inaudible] >> it comes down to society where there has been the leading force in pushing the country forward through experiment of the covenants. the question is, how could we empower civil society organization, civil society activism, what are the conditions available, present

across the region, which can and civil society. what are the conditions in some country that undermined civil society and i would like to highlight two key points. one, the very fact that we're still looking at constitutional framework , which affected not safeguard that the timing of civil society, which undermines our civil society activism to state control, typically security. secondly, organization, constituency building in arab countries, civil society organization and ends up being urban -based focus on segments of the population that don't have a comparative

outreach to any democracy. two key issues, which mean we have to look at this and once again i share the analysis of we will not get to new security if we do not get to stable democratic government, so two key issues we have to look at, how to put in place the right conditions for organizations to prosper and to articulate new social context. secondly, how to safeguard seasons. this is one of the regions that suffers most from violation. second point i would

like to underline is and once again going to a great insight on prioritizing justice. one recommendation which tammy articulates towards the end of the paper, privatizing justice the way i understand the report is to prioritize forming security sectors, prioritize forming judicial institutions, court systems as well as the paradigm of flow enforcement and one of the key reasons citizens awestruck and state institutions. sometimes we criticize the debate about human rights violations. it's not great political impact of having regimes are governments that violate human rights,

now it's about citizens and have a look about the said institutions and how they look at state security institutions, how we look at police stations, have a look at police officers, institution governing the country. prioritizing governance means in my mind and to build on the analysis of the paper means number 12-- and here society actors can help. organizations outside the middle east can offer help as wealth. web expertise on how to do that. number one, two look at institutions and those in place governing judicial institutions, security sectors, military establishment and to push them to deflect two key values

before democracy, accountability. if you follow the jewish men-- egyptian events, we have been hearing about citizens who lost their lives in police custody. this is not a new phenomenon and keeps happening. in the last 48 hours to maximally two hours and this is a testimony to as long as we are going to lack accountability and transparency in relation to law enforcement, citizens will continue to have no trust in government even if they are elected, even if they are democratic and legitimate. international expertise can have how to push framework and accountability and transparency. secondly, and once again actors need help because

in some they are saving not only the closure of public space and a place sometimes it collapse and we have to evacuate those countries. egypt society-- [inaudible] >> here come a duty of international cooperation has to be government and nongovernment. it can be nongovernment. to have these actors facing displacement, facing distinction, evacuation. final point and once again i believe it will hopefully stay fashionable in the us and here's the difference between civilian and non-

civilian and i guess one of the reasons when looking at questions of governance in the region and why it's important and spent time comparing to egypt or comparing different countries where where military establishment are dominant actors in politics where we have civilian politicians managing politics and the political arena is pushing forward for compromise, across ideological alliances, pushing forward new social context where they can hold government accountable and it's not easily done. or if you have government dominated a military establishment,

so when key distinction when you look at countries in 2016, is between countries where security establishment of the dominant player in politics and countries where civilians groups are in charge. we have a track record of civilian groups accepting more inclusion of more compromise. so, this has to be a focus when we look at government and had to push for democratic governance and your paper says that. >> thank you very much and want to ask when technical question because i think i was misled by it and i went to sure the audience isn't as well. you use the phrase privatizing justice.

of course, i have the notion of the private sector taking over the police, but i think what you mean is a transparency and accountability that allows citizens to account. >> exactly, citizen accountability. >> all right. we have talked about and, tammy, i went to pick up on something that trend to set up the entity set at the the beginning. we talked about how the failures of states to govern effectively led to the collapse or civil wars in iraq, syria and yemen, so one question is are other states in the region at risk? have we seen the last of the dominoes or are there other dominoes that could potentially fall and if so what will bring that about? >> i think that is a crucial question because paul aro-- all that are international attention is focused on, there are

others at their wobbling and there have been a number of analytical attempts to sketch out what did those broken eggs have in common and you have seen arguments about republics being more vulnerable than monarchies, for example. what i see in the places that i would say are today still pull the role is its those places where as we saw in egypt has-- you have a leader with no clear succession plan and certainly no transparent, accountable, responsive mechanism for determining succession. those are potential crisis points for any government and we have just been undergoing our regular exercise in the peaceful transition of power here. it is always delicate

moment even for the most establish democracies, but in those places that don't have established tradition it can be very dangerous moment and i would look for example at algeria, where you have an aging leader that's been in place for a long time and no evident successor, no evident process, no evident consensus on a way forward and i think you could say that-- say the same about the palestinian authority today and so you have a losing succession crisis and note connection as amr was dilating where they don't feel like there's any channel 2:00 a.m. that's a boiling pot. >> would you agree with that claimant yes, very much. tammy is right in pointing that out, which we did have in the region prior to 2011. egypt was in a succession crisis where prior to 2011 the talk

of the country was who will succeed the president. she is right in pointing out that jerry a, but when you look at this what is missing is not only the establishment putting 40 succession plan, what's missing as well is how to tackle the lost confidence in any arrangement between government and citizens. in tunisia, confidence is on the rise because they managed to put institutions in place. everyone is talking about them, but you still have institution of a framework in place. what's missing in egypt is these arrangements which people attempted or thrown away and we are in between and the

same goes for a place like algeria. no one knows what will happen. >> this leads to another question i will ask madeleine. it's interesting because the places you picked were algeria and the palestinian authority. those are not traditional monarchies. one of the things you may remember when we started this project, we said this is about a crisis of legitimacy in the middle east and we said legitimacy comes from the consent of the government and a number of people said that is not a sophisticated manner that there other forms of legitimacy in the region based on association, religious affiliation, revolutionary ideology and there are a range of forms of legitimacy, so how do you square that? you know, wet as we look

at the middle east going forward pass 2011, what do we say about legitimacy and what do we say to these regimes that may be teetering on the shelf, but have not fallen off? what is post- 2011 world, what is the way, what do we recommend two leaders as to how they enhance the little midget-- legitimacy of their regimes? >> i think tammy mentioned social contract a lot and i think we have to remember what it is. i think people think of it as a western concept, but basically people gave up some of their individual rights to a state in order to get protection and security in some form and obviously, that is different with a monarchy. but, still there is the same response ability of what is it that the leader of those his people and, i think, when you ask about different countries i

think those are interesting was that were picked, but i would say that this is almost like a virus and one of the things that we have not talked about enough is the influences of technology and one of the things that really did bring up, i mean, it starts with a man in tunisia who insulates himself in the news gets out and all the sudden it spreads and, i think, clearly what happened in the square was social media, so i think no places in the intuit, so one of the questions and i kind of hate to finger any country, but if you look at country like jordan, for instance, that is a monarchy, frontline state and one of the most difficult refugee situations, not a rich place and a king who is trying to figure out the various coalitions and kind of a

transit point and it goes to the very point as to whether the state is providing a livelihood to the people and, i think, one of the things and really you write about this a lot, tammy, in terms of what is it that the state owes the people and initially in all of these countries they were the employer of first resort and when that is not possible anymore than that is the trust issue and so legitimacy to a great extent, i think, in this day and age depends on whether the old leader, the new leader, the king , the deputy crown prince or whatever actually is deliberating because technology has made it possible for people to know what people in other places have and especially to bring another point into it what you said about the younger generation. they are technologically adapt and, by the way, i

have been talking about this has been a peculiar 10 days, but basically in addition to the things you think i'm talking about that i just spent time with a group of former foreign minister's in silicon valley talking about technology and governments and what it has done in terms of providing people information as to whether they have a legitimate governments and it has disaggregated voices in a way that makes some of the organizational things you are talking about hard. now, some of you heard me say this and i always admit that i stole this line, but the thing that's interesting is that people are talking to their governments on 21st century technology. the government listens to them on 20th century technology or hears them, but may not be listening, actually. they provide 19th

century responses and so that disconnect is what we are dealing with and it was very evident in egypt and the question is-- i think anyplace could be subject to this despite the facts that the ones we chose our very typical, but legitimacy is what is the government supposed to be doing whether it's a king or a dictator. >> i just want to push it, tammy. clearly, what is the government supposed to be doing and what is it delivering to its citizens and you talk a lot about transparency. does encouraging states to move in those directions, in fact, is it complementary to or supplementary to other traditional forms of legitimacy that, for example the monarchy states are dependent upon or does it, in fact, risk undermining those other sources of legitimacy? it is seems to me you

have to be able to answer that question if you go to a monarch and say you need to move in a direction of legitimate transparence responsive government. that monarch has to be-- have some understanding that it can be supplemental to and doesn't undermine the traditional legitimacy. >> i actually think there is an important language that i recommend to answer this question, which is it's not about what government owes citizens ..

highly educated, healthier than any generation before. let's remember that two and three generations ago, they didn't even have secondary school. the developmental leaps are tremendous. this rising generation has a different set of expectations. it's not just about making sure they have a job. they expect to be able to participate. they expect to be able to set their own path in life and not just habit directed for them by their monarch or their father or their uncle or anybody else. at essence, what they they expect is this thing that liberal societies are best structured to provide which is

the opportunity for every individual to find their own path to human flourishing. if i can put it in philosophical terms. governments can't get away with just offering enough jobs or enough healthcare or free education. they can't just check a box and they are legitimate. they have to meet that set of expectations. they have to give people opportunity to find for themselves a pathway, and that means they have to be more open and more responsive. now, to the point of tension, it is a mental shift. if you are a very traditional leader who believes that the only way you can help society grow is by directing it from the top down, but that is not the only form of legitimacy. even for a monarch. so, the traditional pathway may

be i am the source of social goods, i distribute them, but you can also be the source of opportunities. you can be the source of dynasty. it is a shift in mentality but it's entirely possible. >> egypt is a perfect example. to what extent is the freedom of the segregated voices or order, at a certain point, i've been saying for instance that the young people were all having an incredibly interesting time having been gotten there by social media and the older man who cannot get to his stall in the marketplace says i can't stand this anymore. i need some order. i think one could actually be persuaded that cc was elected or

there was really a movement to have that happen because people were fed up with the chaos. i think the hard part is how inclusive and getting participation, whether people are tolerant enough to go through the chaos time until they get to the proper time. >> i want to go and rephrase it a bit. that will be our last question and then we'll go to the audience. if you remember, lawrence of arabia at one point says i am a river to my people. that's sort of an old traditional form of legitimacy. what you are really saying is a legitimacy based on satisfying what the people expect from their government, and increasingly that includes participation and the role and fashioning their own future. let's go to cc. i spent 23 hour sessions with him.

i tried to make this argument. this is a source of legitimacy. this is what he must do if, over the long-term, he is going to bring stability and prosperity. i've not yet made the sale. what you hear is what you would expect someone, given the trauma that egypt has been through, i understand what you are saying, but you need to understand this is a difficult difficult time. there is extremism at the door and we cannot, the middle east cannot stand a breakdown in order. if you think the refugee flows are bad now, just just wait until egypt breaks down. what is an argument you make who sees himself as defending himself against extremism one that he sincerely believes and

that he is risking his life. how do you make the argument to him that actually this is where he's got to go if he's going to bring long-term stability to his country? >> this is basically the debate we are having. since 2011, but even earlier on. we do have enough historical examples and cases to push forward a very clear, clean argument for how democracies cannot provide for long-term stability. they never managed to do so. egypt was before 2011. what happened after 2011. [inaudible]

we had years of activism demanding that voices should be heard. the background of a failing government. maybe in the beginning there were young people there outlining social economic grievances in the impact. you have 30% poverty and unemployment of young people over 40%. young females, over 45% or more. [inaudible] the argument is that they don't manage to provide for long-term. these need to be accounted for.

the question is, how to get government and the only way to get them is by listening to you, then then the society acted. we need an organized facilitation of citizens who can listen and know how to do it right. we need to offer some solutions. we do not have to undermine by harassing and violating key rights and imprisoning and killing citizens in police custody and elsewhere, and they are providing enough social and economic solution to improve the living condition. if they listen, if rulers and government listen to their constituents, not not only their military and security establishments, not only their business needs which benefit, they will find solutions. in fact, there were states that

push forward the development. this was created by the modern state. in a way the modern state enabled the development education and healthcare and elsewhere. this is the most connective generation of young arabs we are looking at, but in a way these governments no longer consent and they have to listen. >> one last comment will go to the audience. >> i think it is a false choice between mass mobilization and authoritarian order. i would say it's not that a leader, but the people are river and like water they will find outlets.

the challenge is whether you can create channels and mechanisms and pathways for people to have the influence they want to have over their own lives and the lives of their communities, or whether left with no alternative they will spill into the streets the failure of reforms in the time leading up to the uprising is what compelled that mass mobilization. what we see in egypt today that troubles me very much and i think itself is quite destabilizing and dangerous is a leader who believes that by putting a lid on it he has lowered the boiling pot. as you all know, when you put a lid on the part, the boil increases. that's what we have in egypt. we have no civil society channels, we have no excessive political challenge because the parliament and the party system

are so tightly managed, we have no free speech channels so that part is boiling very fast. it is far more dangerous than the situation before the uprising. >> i love the phrase the leader isn't the river to the people, the people are river that if the leader does not channel will spill over in the streets. that's a good way to put it. >> try it on him. [laughter] >> we have microphones? >> yes. >> right here in the front. for throw. if you will keep the questions short, we will keep the answers short. >> short questions but long answers.

my research is on civil military relations in turkey, egypt and israel, and i think, listening think, listening to you, it's fascinating how you are describing egypt and the arab world, but a lot of what you are saying applies to other cases. turkey in particular, i argue it is going through a regime astern where does turning into a regime where places of expression and all that, but there is a ping-pong regional order, some equilibrium imitating one another. i guess i wonder, because i haven't read the report in depth, is there a center for middle east policy or vision to other countries within the region including turkey and israel and the crackdown.

a lot of what you've been describing seems to me like bits of conversation everywhere in the region at large. that framework you would encourage adopting. >> tammy do you want to take that one? >> sure. politics is politics. while every region has its own history and culture that shapes the way politics are expressed, there are common features. yes there are demonstrations both positive and negative and in the paper i talk about the competing models for governance in the middle east today, the fragile democratic experiment of tunisia, the effort at renewed

authoritarianism symbolized by egypt and the brutal savage order of isis which is also a model competing for adherence in the region today. that is part of what's at stake, what are people going to embrace in the midst of this turmoil? i do think it is having an effect on those in the periphery of the region, but i also think think some of those dynamics, for example the global pushback against civil society and freedom, it didn't start in the middle east, and it hasn't stopped in the middle east. we see it in russia, we see a in india and elsewhere. congratulations to the task force on the working group for completing this. my government finds lots of grievances in this report. we think it addresses the key

aspects. implementing it is going to be hard work because i do think that until recently, a a lot of people are afraid of challenging the order because there is such a level of chaos and disintegration around them. i think that is something that needs to be looked at. i would go a step back and wonder if you could address in the report, the most basic point which is, are we doing enough as governments are taking interest in the region, but were not part of the region for human rights. for example, bringing up arbitrary detention, these kinds of things must come way before we talk about freedom of association. freedom of association is very important. we would absolutely support that. the human rights is absolutely fundamental and that's where we see such grave misbehavior and

violations all around the region >> let me just say, i believe we do, or at least we try, but i think that the problem comes, having tried it, i won't say which country, but we can't help you if you don't really do something about your laws, and human rights, that was kind of mind your own business. they do think we have to do that even if it is not received well. it adds to the chaotic situation the situation is, it has come up over and over again, are human rights, our democracy of people a western concept or is it a global concept? i have argued it's global. we are all the same. people people want to be able to make decisions about their own lives and they want to have some absence of arbitrariness, but

it's not an easy message to deliver. frankly, if it's not delivered alongside of practical assistance, whether it's to security or aid program, but it does have to go together and if we don't do it, your country and hours, then we are not fulfilling our responsibilities. steve can testify to that. >> if i could say one thing, you start with a very important point. those countries that are making steps in the direction of what tammy has talked about, and you see it in you a you and your beginning to see it in saudi arabia, certainly tunisia is doing it. it is hard to do that and to keep your society together in a benign security and regional environment. think about the environment in the middle east today, and to

say to a leader we need you to take a risk of reform and moving in this direction in a region that is melting down. this is a hard thing and we have to recognize it. one of these things, the attitude of the international community must be if you are willing to make those hard decisions, we will support you financially, diplomatically and with technical assistance. if you don't, we won't. not. not because we are being punitive but because by our judgment it would be a bad investment. those states that are willing to make those mistakes on behalf of their people because we think they are the most likely to result and achieve long-term prosperity. i think we have to recognize the difficulty of what we are asking and be engaged and be willing to

step in and support those countries that are willing to make the right decision. >> i lived in saudi arabia from 2009 until 2013. i have two comments into parts of the report. one of the issue is trust. my observation is based on my experience in saudi arabia and that is one of the issues to think about is trust among people themselves did they have the freedom to express to each other how they struggle with these issues. it's not just government people, but it's that key issue of trust. how do you provide a comfort level where they can talk to each other without fear. the second related issue to me is that some of the most moving conversations i have had starts with the premise of finding the political philosophy foundation

within the region and the culture that asked two questions, especially one, what are the values in islam that house the deepest meaning to you? that is a conversation. that is your dialogue issue. the second part is how do you want to see them expressed in society? to me, when you then grounded within the culture and something comes from bottom up, the cultural component is obviously key to this, but those two issues combined are different take than what's in your report. >> just a quick reflection on that very, very thoughtful, which is absolutely, absolutely, i do in the paper talk about social trust in between communities, not just between

citizens and government. if you're thinking about a case like libya or syria where the society has truly collapsed into sectarian civil war or tribal civil war, you you have to think about that. there are things that can be done even while these conflicts are ongoing to build forms and platforms for dialogue and conflict resolution. there are successful programs including u.s. ip programs that were done in iraq where communities came together around dialogue before they were brought back into a town so they didn't have to immediately justify themselves or feel under threat on their return and the communities could feel comfortable with their return. i think there are examples we can build on and perhaps we can build one half sentence on the previous point from our german colleague. i wanted to echo something that my colleague had said a number

of times which is from his pursuit active as someone who spent the last year of his military career fighting terrorism. if we external actors who have invested so much in the military fight, if we do not invest in the government piece, we are going to be playing whack a mole with extremists on the large scale because the problem will re-create itself again and again. >> other comments or questions? >> i am with a private firm that works in the middle east. my question is actually expanding on the notion of social trust and i think you framed it so well in talking about the breakdown in the middle east and particularly when we think about the relationship of government has with its citizens and the expectations of the relationships that it's the

distance has with its government one could certainly argue now, not just with the middle east but here in the united states, we are beginning and erosion of social trust with certain groups that may be feeling more marginalized or more uncertain with their government. i would just ask if you could, what can a citizen do in terms of rebuilding social trust and how would that be effective? >> it's striking that the two countries which witnessed the emergence and explosion of tribal conflict in multi- ethnic

conflict leading to civil wars between government and citizens. in areas like tunisia, we were approaching in 2011 of having established. [inaudible] with labor associations, professional organizations and in egypt, the dictatorships crushed these intermediary players between citizens in the state so then they woke up to state. [inaudible] the only way for them to organize was to listen to the militant ideologies because there was no alternative given to them. there were no channels. once again, social trust when we

look at it and what's happening in media should not be happening elsewhere in the region. the key is not to trust but government creating channels between citizens and enabling civil society to exist. this is the only way to manage ethnic tensions. this is not a full-fledged democracy. it's a multi- ethnic society. it is because we have an established arena. >> other questions or comments?

when the back and then we will take the two women here. >> thank you. we. my question is, i really appreciate your comments on civil society and the need for civil society organizations outside the region to help those inside the region, but as as you know, especially in egypt, the government betrays us as a foreign conspiracy and play up the hyper nationalism and prevent that type of assistance. how do you get around that problem to have civil society in the united states or in europe helping those on the ground in egypt? thank you. >> thank you. very briefly, i believe we do not need to shy away from pushing forward and we do not have to submit to the hyper- nationalist type of populist

narrative. what happen was not a conspiracy if you would like to look at themselves, government could recognize a deficit what they have we need to enable citizens to create trust. in the right cases, tunisia and other areas as opposed to egypt. finally, once again what is it, what does it take to fix? it is to enable civil society to exist and then citizen demands

to be addressed and be responded to. >> we are running shy on time. what i will do is take the two that i pointed to hear and take to from this side and we will just go through those questions and try to answer those questions and then we will be out of time. ma'am you had one. >> do behind you and then we will take you. >> hi, i am a jordanian consultant in development for the government. in going back to the gentleman's question regarding civil society, i have a lot of hope in civil society, but in the absence of political will on the parts of government, the space is very limited. i want to throw another group

out there in the mix and perhaps this could be one other way of looking at it. the role of communities, there have been case studies and economic development but also promoting and strengthening government. thank you. >> and then two rows up. >> hi, concerned citizen from texas. the social contract that sec. albright was talking about seems impossible without dealing with all the corruption. to me that seems like such an underlying problem. if you can't trust your police or your judges or if you can just buy them off, how do you even trust anyone? i think that's why there is so much discontent. how do we deal with that? >> yes, ma'am. right back there. three rows from the end. >> i am with the department of

energy. you all have done a great job addressing the political governance issues, but it seems to me there are these bigger macro economic issues that cannot be solved by nations themselves alone like taking at oil prices and currency prices. how do you see the u.s. and the rest of the community, how can they best serve these countries and help bridge that gap to foster better governance? which no one has mentioned and particularly partnered with u.s. policy.

so i would like anyone on the panel at all to comment on yemen and over u.s. policy toward it spirit we have four issues. any takers? >> should we just go -- >> let's do it quickly, one minute answers. >> one of the key spaces which we still have available, where the public space has been closed off. the question becomes how to do it in a manner which does not undermine the capability of domestic actors. the question becomes how to do it away from government-to-government relations. i trust it's more powerful if it's done in nongovernment to

nongovernment actors. finally, once again how to justify the interest, not from a moral perspective but from a political trip active -- perspective. you need to fashion a narrative. this narrative cannot be exiled opposition. i believe because there's been tried out in the region, that we need -- to push it forward but yet this is one of the key space is. >> the headline here coming out of the report i would say it is sunshine is the best disinfectant. one of the reasons why is because it's such an antidote to the kind of behavior. but more broadly corruption exists particularly because those in power, those with our time to solve problems that they have. they are trying to grease the wheels of their own lives or the people above them in the chain

and so you got to look at how to fix the political dysfunction that create incentives for corruption, whether that is painfully spent higher salaries or making sure that the our expectations from outside as well as some insight. this goes to the point on globalization, there is a sidebar in the report on economic globalization, its impact on state sovereignty. it is a problem for every state but there is reflect their states were and are i think particularly well-positioned to deal with the effects. >> i'm not an expert on yemen but i have to say this, in many ways it's a country that is a victim of all kinds of meddling. one in terms of north and south yemen being united when they actually were not very excited about it but it was pressure coming from the neighbors. then the fact that it was on its

way in terms of looking at having some governance work when then it became the playground of proxy war between iran and saudi arabia. and so that is what's going on now. it is really, it's a victim country is on the way that i think it can be described. and very hard for the outside powers that would like to do some good their to actually get any purchase on it in some way. because it's not big enough, and it is, in fact, absorbing a lot of the problems it can be dealt with somewhere else. >> we have come to the end of our time. i want to thank tammy for a great paper. thank you all for coming and free questions, and please join me in thanking the panel. [applause]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> congress returns from its thanksgiving recess this week. the senate is in session at 3 p.m. eastern negotiations

continue behind closed doors on government spending past december night when the current government funding expires. tomorrow the senate vote on votn legislation dealing with medical care in rural areas. the house is back tomorrow. on wednesday democrats selectively with minority leader nancy pelosi being challenged by congressman tim ryan of ohio. later the house considers legislation on fda approval of drugs and money for the fda and national institute of health. >> a look at the lobby of trump tower where president-elect donald trump has returned after his thanksgiving trip to palm beach, florida. he is meeting with a number of people in the 58 story building including pennsylvania congressman lou barletta, oakland attorney general scott pruitt, milwaukee county sheriff dave clark, john allison former ceo of the bank abn key, former cia director david petraeus.

our coverage -- spirit full of transition on c-span as donald trump becomes the 45th president and republicans maintain control of the u.s. house and senate. we will take you to key events as they happen without interruption to watch live on c-span, watch on-demand at c-span.org or listen on our free c-span radio app. >> thank you all very much. welcome to congress. >> up and next o on c-span2 our conversation with the top lawyers for ridesharing company uber and the cloud computing company salesforce. they discuss legal issues facing tech companies. the american bar association's annual meeting in san francisco, this is one hour 20 minutes. >> good morning, everyone. yes, ma it's true, i did drive

myself here today. but for those of you who took over mac, thank you very much for supporting us. my store at uber, some of you know i think those in the audience but about four years ago i was a litigation partner. i had intended to stay at the firm my entire career. specifically that firm. as firms go i thought this was a good place. i can really serve my clients. i like the people i work with and do good work. through a series of events including networking, i do believe it's important to participate in organizations like the aba and also local bar associations. i unexpectedly found myself the gp of uber. site think this is a tech gc panel and i will say that my talk here is somewhat unusual. for those of you who are not intact, perhaps someday you will

unexpectedly also find yourself the gc of a tech company. when i joined uber, i am employed 102, which in the tech world it means something. it means i was a little too late and i didn't get into the first 100. but i was still pretty early and i was the first lawyer at uber. we were about, i was employee 100 to do some people left so we were about 90 people. today about four years later we are over 9000. when i started we were in poor countries, about 15 cities. and today we are in over 70 countries and over 425 cities your i don't know the exact number because for those of you who read about us occasionally in the news, we are occasionally in the news, we had some news

about china. i haven't done the i haven't done the county figured out that my team tells me we are about 425. again i was the first lawyer so i had the challenge and the privilege of building my law department to the needs of my company. and today my law department is 205 people. as some of you may know, we have a few legal issues, and 205 seems to my team a bit small. i look forward to this conversation, and thank you to heather and cynthia for inviting me here, and also to ray for including me. so thank you. >> amy fox, do you want to speak next? >> i'm amy fox, associate general counsel at oculus at a brought some slides today

because unlike uber and salesforce am not sure everyone knows what oculus is about or what our products are. one of the things i will be harping on today's how important it is to know your product when your in house counsel. the way i came to oculus i graduate from stanford law school in 2000 then i work at is as a silicon valley firms doing i.t. litigation and transactions. i left the firms for intel and actually stated intel for 10 years. i see a couple of intel colleagues in the audience. it was a great experience at intel. that is a big multinational company with a large legal department where you can kind of move from position to position and rotations and get a lot of really good experience in a lot of different topics. then at about the ten-year mark i started thinking i've done a lot of things here and maybe i would be willing to look for something else. right around the time as the universe provides, oculus called and asked if i would be interested in entity. and i did.

the general counsel, my boss, was supposed to be on the panel but i'm stepping up to be. so i joined tonight and i'll tell you a little about what oculus does come if that makes sense to folks. so oculus is actually a medium. it's a platform for you to communicate with others and to experience anything with anyone anywhere in the world. that is our mission statement. facebook, i'll give you a little bit of background here. facebook bought oculus a couple of years ago, it was a small startup but a very young founder, palmer. i think where the kickstarter finder in the audience who actually was someone who saw this kickstarter camping and decided to fund it. palmer had basically built this device that you put on your head or if they had one device. it's similar to this. it's black. it looks like the rift. and built a platform where you

go and experience what we generally call the metaverse which is an infinite world of other realities. he was very interested in doing this kind of work and decided he would put together a kickstarter camping and he thought he might be able to raise about a quarter of a million dollars. within a very short period of time he raised over $2 million it became clear many more people were interested in virtual reality than just palmer and a small group. then zuckerberg became interested and he decided to purchase tonight and bring coming into the facebook team. so i want to tell you a little about the products because a measure of what there some way with it. we have two major products. one is called the rift. the rift is a tethered device, it connects to a pc engine experience very high in virtual reality experiences, games and other content. when you buy it comes with a

tracker and a single input device and they didn't have. i won't go into all the details. something that is about to ship the second half of this year is called touch. the touch controls are essential like a game had broken into two but you put them on. you can see your hands when you're playing and you can see other people in the oculus social space. it's sort of a collaborative experience, a social experience. we are pretty excited about these coming out. at the less expensive old -- for lower end of the market is this product that we partner with simpson on. samsung builds all the products. it's a drop in device. is not a samsung phone into it. it's more high-end than i would say like a cardboard experience but it's similar in the sense it is mobile. it is part by oculus say go to oculus platform. this is what it looks like when you go into a oculus platform.

it's similar. there's all sorts of different experiences you can go to. i wanted to just go over that only because like i said earlier we're going to talk about what it's like to be in house counsel come and to be homeported is to understand the product and thus i feel like i add value to my team, by visiting a my legal team. and then import it is outside counsel also understand the product. and i see some of my favorite outside counsel in the audience today. we have a rift set up in the offices of the couple of the firms we work with so that i can say we have this new content, these are my concerns, check it out. what you think of this are what you think of the flow of this particular new user experience. do you think it meant certain guidelines or issues? so that is something i want to share with you. looking forward to the panel. thank you. >> thank you, amy. >> i'm still waiting for amy to try on her -- we're all feeling

a little intimidated. minute amy weaver, executive vice president and general counsel for salesforce. salesforce is now the fourth largest enterprise software company in the world. we focus on customer relationship management software, crm which is the intersection of how companies work for the customers, whether it's selling to them, marketing, service, analytics and everything else. it's been a very exciting company. we are about 17 years old. i wish very much i could tell you i was employee number 100 to like salle. i think i was about 10,002. we now have about 25,000 employees and they are located all over the world. one thing about a salesforce that makes the company very unique is that it was founded with a newfound topic model and we hav have held out 111.

that means 1% of our equity, 1% of our employees time and 1% of our products are donated to charitable organizations. this flow through the entire culture of the company. we've also taken some very leading roles in terms of social issues. in the past year those overly been centered around gender pay and equality for women. and lgb let us an action throughout the country. i can address those later on. in terms of my journey to becoming the general counsel for a tech company, this is not at all what i thought i was going to end up. i come from account of 14 lawyers, and as my father likes to point out with a deep sigh, i am the only one who has gone in house. my father worked for the same law firm for 55 years into this is but a different course. after graduating from moscow i clerked on the ninth circuit and then i had an opportunity to move to hong kong to work for a number of the hong kong legislature.

i moved over and promptly fell in love with asia and with international work, and then joined the hong kong office. i practice in asia for another five years all over but increasingly focusing on india and the capital markets there. i moved back to seattle in 2002, practice with a firm in seattle until 2005, when i went in house for the first time with expedia and help take them public again. i then served as the general counsel at june of our which is a global chemical description company making every logical leap from online travel to chemical distribution. [laughter] and coming right back to see rpm with the opportunity to come to sever cisco three years ago and joined the sales for i'm really looking forward to panel entry from everyone on it today. so thank you for the opportunity. >> let's get started by asking

each of you to talk about the top emerging technology issues that you have at your company and your approaches for dealing with them. >> we are very high-tech. >> so the top technology issues associated with oculus, i mean, oculus right now as a hardware, a software and a platform company. so we look at all of the issues across the board associate with doing the product launches that we do the we ship hardware in 22 countries which means we have an entire supply chain and all the complex issues associate with that, and that doesn't sound high-tech but it actually is something that we think a lot about.

the platform peace of course there are huge issues associate with platforms and how you interact with al all the various operating systems onto. we talk a lot about that making sure everybody has access to the continent who wanted. and then, of course, there's also software issues associated with building the metaverse that i referred to earlier which we have a really great develop relationships unit goes out and helps developers will games and experiences and get agreement with other big content providers. so we have enough hours of playing time when people put to rest on, they feel like have hundreds of hours to spend ended and don't go anywhere with anyone at anytime. >> sell some of you know how uber came to be, but if i could just go back in history and little bit. in 2008 are cofounders were in paris for a conference.

specifically there in front of the eiffel tower, and this was in december. they couldn't get a taxi, and i've shared this with other people including the litigation section yesterday. when i first heard the story of our first reaction was, why didn't he just walked three blocks and get on the metro tracks but in any event, you know, the idea came out of a real consumer need. there was this disconnect and i'm sure you've experienced this between win transportation providers and when you need that transportation. they started kind of, we call it a our tech speak, jamming. they started going hey, wouldn't it be cool if i could take my phone and call a car? and some uber really came into being with the emergence of the smartphone. up until that point there was no frictionless way to connect drivers who and transportation services to provide and writers

who needed that transportation in a way that just sync them up, got them in the right location and then we thought through how to make the payment process more efficient and consumer friendly. so it really emerged from a need, a consumer need that would solve the technology. and from there we have iterated on the concept. so back when i joined in 2012 we really only had one product in those 15 cities. actually i take that back. there was too. when was the licensed limo. of the teleconference always licensed limo. you had to pre-book it, pay by credit card or every transactitransacti on was unique. you never knew if you're getting the right deal. he didn't know if these were prices for monday versus thursday or prices for 10 p.m. versus 70 them. but anyway this is how it was. that it was a licensed limo and then there was taxi. in a couple of our cities you

could request tax on the path for a taxi would pic pick you un charge of the regular regulator rates. but from the as you know the concept of p2p game. so these are non-commercially licensed drivers, licensed drivers back that by a $1 million policy that we purchased and that a background check. that all sounds very easy but kind of running the technology back into that gets very, very complex. then we thought let's make it more interesting. we had noticed on a platform and we have launched a feature called share my ride. if you got into a cab or into a uber with your friends and you said share my ride commute sent in a link that said share my ride and if any accepted they would automatically split that ride, the cost of the ride between the two. we saw high adoption. people really like this.

they like not at the end, but haven't had a conversation at the end of the night this is you only 20 bucks. and so we saw a lot of adoption. we were like i wonder if people would be willing to share rides with strangers? so then we came up with uber pool. uber pool is super, a very simple concept. it basically says were looking for two riders that are in close proximity going to a point that is in close proximity. how do we match that up and let them share a ride? there's a complex algorithm that goes into figure out what's the most optimal range for people to pick up because you don't want to wait 10 minutes or you don't want to get into garnett had to go try committed to pick up a second person and then go off. there's a lot of technology backend of that, but we and we look at concepts like uber pool, and i'm not going to go through the entire litany of all of our products, but you can't get the

idea. the principle behind it is that by getting people to share a resource, we should be able to get to a place where people can feel like they can give up their second car or they don't always need their car. that will have positive impacts. there should be less traffic. there should be a positive impact on the environment once we take those cars off. in san francisco i will tell you, over 50% of our rides today are over pool. so if you think of those rights happening two years ago, one person in one car, and now over 50% of the rides are over pool. that's something that are actually very, very happy about because the other side of that is when we looked at san francisco, over 20% of the real estate in whatever system is devoted to parking. parking garages, parking lots, what not. for those of you to know about

real estate in san francisco, that is just nutty, especially when you have an asset that is at rest nearly 90% of the time to think how you use your personal vehicle. you used it to go to work in the morning, you use it to go home. may be on the way you stop at the grocery store, but that's pretty much it for five days out of the week. so again if we can provide options that can get people out of their car, sharing their vehicles and perhaps reduce the need to have the land used for parking, all of these can have impacts in a society that is becoming more and more urbanized. i know this is a really on tech but i do feel it's really important for each of us to emphasize that most of the time, you know, it's technology solving a real consumer problem and they need. and one of the vcs in silicon valley said as to when i came on. i asked him, once you're

investing philosophy? he said, i looked for systematic solutions to this aggregated marketplaces. and when he said that it made total sense. but at the core of that is the desire and the goal of meeting a consumer need. >> what i love of all of this is really talk about very, very innovative companies come and things are changing every day. one of the things i really love about my job is that i don't know what issues are going to be that day. they change day. they changed everything they change with new technology. they change with new models. as salle is good for all the different options for uber, my head was spinning for all the different opportunities to work on. at salesforce the one issue though i am never able to take off its privacy.

as a company that is entirely cloud-based, we really believe trust is our number one value. our model fails if peopl peoplet trust those entrusted the cloud. so i do spend a particular amount of time on privacy issues. this past year has been particularly interesting for privacy, and anyone who touches this area probably has not gotten a lot of sleep. in particular last fall when the european court of justice invalidated the safe harbor, that was the model that up to 90% of u.s. companies used to transfer the data in a protected way from europe to the united states. u..

>> we were able to publish more than 25,000 that substituted for clauses for safe harbor and sent out against fourhours. being able to do that , people were focused on these issues and consequently working at staying at the front age is absolutely critical and this is continuing. as many of you know, they are under attack and in europe we have data privacy questions. so it's something that every single day, no matter what is on my plate, that have to be addressed. >> one thing i typically do when i start a program and i did not this year is i would love a show of hands . how many people are attorneys with outside counsel? at their own firms? it looks about half and how

many on the inside with counsel? >> all right, and ran in the randomness . how many are here just because it was a nice thing to do on a saturday morning? [laughter] thank you. so we will go back to private but one thing i was going to ask is all of you have such enormous jobs. really, weare all sitting here thinking wow, what issue to deal with . do you have any tips for how much time you spend being reactive with, you go to their office as general counsel does, you've got people lined up waiting to talk to you and the same weight, i've got to take a rest, i got to take time out to make sure i'm anticipating tomorrow's issues, learning about those so i wondered if you have any tips for us for managing that balance between being so active and reactive.

>> i would love to hear tips. i think that's one of my biggest challenges is not getting up every morning. i feel compelled to sit down and wait so as opposed to blocking time to really enter the bigger issues and i will tell you, i am not a model on this. i have tried everything from declaring i'm not going to look at my emails for the first hour of the day to blocking time on the calendar to having an assistant put up something on my door that says do not disturb and trying to physically block people from coming in so i can think things over. i've had limited success in all of these and i do feel that it is a real challenge and i have to be reactive and it is part of the job and really needing to work here is critical.

>> anyone else have tips for all of us? >> i don't really have tips. i agree that this is superhard. i was thinking back on my experience and i think one of those things that, one of the gifts of being at a company that was so young and only 100 people was that i'm a litigation partner by training and when i got to uber we didn't have a single piece of legislation, it was amazing. i think i got about a three month honeymoon but one that allowed me to do when the company was smaller his plan for the future. what i try to do is do the same so back then, the first rst that i ran for outside counsel was employment because i knew that this issue was going to come and we needed to get prepared for it. i wanted to make sure the model reflected our business it was that we provided a

service to others that they would use. so i tried to keep to that. i tried to anticipate what's coming down and prepare for it. i tried to push my team to do it and frankly, i think part of my coping strategy is something that came out of my 15 years of law firm life which is don't go in every sunday. i just need that block of time to kind of get caught up when there are meetings scheduled every minute of the day. i think amy and i have talked about this. i learned in years that i couldn't do three and 60 minute meetings, i had to do 25 minute meetings so i can walk to the next meeting and perhaps occasionally take a break. these are little coping things you learn as you go along but i think overall, saving that time and planning for what's coming down the pipe can be super important.

it's just really hard to find that time. >> i have tips on either although i'm sure everybody's seeing. one of the things i spent time looking about at oculus's training our clients about how to work with legal. since i joined oculus it's gone from 150 employees to 500 and you have this influx of people who are sort of going in their careers, haven't been through major litigation before so i'm probably calibrated for the risks that can come from communication, for theway they conduct themselves .i tried to get legal out there front and center and begin early in often and bring them in, this is the best way to come to us. our attorneys at oculus are embedded with the clients so it's a different model than some legal department state where they have more subject matter experts and what that means is that you are with

your prime client and everybody flows from him or her. from your team helps support them and being embedded with them and with them a lot help you get ahead of the issues a little bit. maybe just a little bit. you can kind of see what's coming down the pipe and try to plan for it. but yes, i answer emails starting at four: 50 every morning. i wake up early and get online and i do a couple hours of emailing before i spend time with my family, before i send everybody off to their schools and get into the office. i do work around the clock, i love my job so i enjoy every minute of it. i will say at facebook there is a different communication culture because it is facebook so we have groups where people communicate in groups and there's facebook messenger which is a well used tool so that means my email is actually less in sort of number but theamount

of communication i get is constant . which is a blessing and a curse, it's good to be tight with your clients . and you know, intel i got trained in getting things done with the model, i don't know if anybody else uses that. but it doesn't courage you to block various chunks of time to deal with things and i actually have standing calls with my outside counsel where we talk about what i see coming down the pipe, what we need to block and we will sit down and counter a couple hours here or there where we talk about different topics and it helps get me up on things and that tends to work very well. >> i actually had a great period of my career that didn't last very long, i was one of the first full to have a blackberry. when i was the only one who had it, then i could be sending out my messages from wherever i was and i didn't

have to worry about other people doing it, it was terrific not anymore so i'm kind of aging myself by saying that but i do have fond memories of that era. so i want to ask you all about another issue that's very important to our world today. with regards to technology and that is cyber security. it can open the page of newspaper, channel and tv without seeing some other report about acting and you know, people stealing private information so i wanted to ask all of you how you deal with that and if that is one of your top concerns going forward for a tech company? >> so we think about cyber security the same way we

think about privacy which is it's of paramount importance. not only to have these strong measures in place, we have an entire security team that looks at the engineering part of it but also works with law enforcement and handles these cyber security issues. in a world where it's constantly changing but really, it's about building trust. you want users to know that we are taking steps to protect their information, that we value our relationship with them and that we will do our best to make sure their information days secure. and amy, you want to see a few things? >> cyber security is top of mind and it does go hand-in-hand. i think it's changed because the couple years on cyber security, this is not just an issue for the oculus's and

uber's of the world as tech companies. cyber security is something that every single company , every single law firm has got to takes seriously. there is no company, no industry that is based or safe from cyber attack at this point. the most important thing general counsel can do is making sure these issues are making it up to the board level. this is a risk that needs to be managed in the way that other major risks are and it needs to go all the way up the board and then you see it on a regular interval. >> i think in the materials, i sent a letter that the response to senator al franken's inquiries to oculus about how we collect data and what we do with data and he published it and that the detailed response, i won't go

into it but one of the great parts about being inspired by facebook is the private security of this is part of what facebook folks is on and also very important to them that all of their users are safe so i seen a real cultural adoption of that at oculus where oculus has realized it's something that we have to focus on in order for our users to trust us and have a good experience. i'll say it's interesting, the cultural piece where it's a core value for the company really influences how we give legal advice and how comfortable i am with what i think the client is doing. we are right now, i'd say adopting a culture of health and safety also at oculus because having a good experience, a comfortable experience and virtual reality is what's going to drive the adoption and make the platform successful. i see these as cultural shifts that are super important, closer to legal dynamics for that side of

things. >> i wanted to mention in this segway, when you walked into the room, you get this little card that shows where all the program materials are area there up on the web and if there's anything you want is questions, come to us afterwards and i will make sure you have a lake. we have that letter which i sent to the honorable alfred can. whenever i see his name like that i said wait, i sent a serious letter with a serious member of congress. that's a great letter. we also have the terms of use and privacy policies and before we close out the issues on cyber security, i just had a general question. again, practical chances for keeping ahead and having a new approach staying on top of that because with the changes to the rules, all of us are sort of like now what? a few more words because we've got many people here who had practices focusing on privacy. we welcome then.

>> i'll admit that i was not a cyber security expert when i went to uber so i went out and got one. she had gotten her training at facebook and had on those european and us policy work which was really key for us so i think that being the non-expert here, the one thing that i would highlight especially for global companies is really understanding the global nature of your practice requirements and you can take several approaches to it. the easiest way is if you can get to a place where you have one global policy. the other way is to personalize it for each country but certain countries have different requirements

area france being one. south korea being another tough place to be that i learned but being really aware of where your clients are going and what is required area in that country, it's something that i've gone through and i think it's just an important issue. as we go increasingly global and increasingly cloud-based, we run into these privacy issues everywhere. >> it's an incredible area of law to see how it develops. i remember hiring my first editor in media and staff and until that interview i had never met anyone who focused on privacy and nine years later, i have 10 people in my connection to our privacy, five in europe and defined in the bay area. it's an area that's so complex and it's important to be partnering with really any outside counsel who are spending the time looking at this on a global basis.

>> i agree, one of the things that is lucky about at oculus is that we are an embedded legal team. facebook does have the subject matter experts and a very strong privacy team, both in legal department and also on the policy team, we have a large policy team there's a lot of cross functional work that goes in tough thinking about these issues and i felt like when the franken letter was being drafted that what oculus lawyers offered was a deep understanding of product and how the product would work. so that the subject matter. totally rock that and put that into writing for us. >> i recommend looking at the letters to that degree that the policies are ... [inaudible] >> as i indicated during my introductory comments during my year as chair of the diverse city of the really

important topic to me and i think to everyone so i wanted to give you an opportunity to comment some on what your companies now are doing to ensure diverse city. >> i mentioned at the beginning that i stayed at my law firm for a while and i had intended to stay there but i didn't say why. part of it was because i really enjoy the practice of law and i enjoyed working with the people in the law firm but part of it was because i had read the aba story in 2008 on minority women and their partnerships and the basic gist of the story was that statistically, the probability that a minority woman would still be at a law 200 firm after 10

years is basically zero. to me that says minority women were making it into partnerships and at that time i was getting indicators that perhaps i had a shot. i decided hey, i'm going to stay in. go to those miserable years before partnership and try to figure out how to solve this puzzle and teach others how to do it. that was one of the reasons why i stayed in and when i got this opportunity to become gc of uber, it was a little bit of a difficult decision for me in a number of ways but it was one of those things because i had been so committed to that and i've been so public about that and to say hey, i'm out. right? so i thought okay, this is a great opportunity. let me see what i can do on the inside. it's been interesting for me. i've learned a lot. one, my first five callers were women. i didn't go out to hire women. i went out to hire the best people to fit the needs of the company but when i looked around, they were all women.

then i hired a man and then the joke in my legal department was out i was free to hire another woman. then i had to look at myself and say what is the unconscious bias that i hold but i think to be perfectly honest, i really think we are out of place and i think for the women, all of the women on this panel, we worked with really smart women, really smart, diverse women and it's really out of place where to meet, i don't think it's a question of why, it's a question of why not. i'm going to continue to go out there, hire the best people for the job that i have. the one thing that i do is i'm very intentional about it. so i asked my teams, make sure in your last panel we are going to hire the best people but in the very final panel i want to know if you are a woman or a minority, i want to make sure you are being intentional in your hiring and i talked to my leads about what their groups look like so what i've experienced in my team is

that who you put the very top matters. my women led legal teams are much more diverse in every single way. so i tried to be intentional about what that mix looks like and when that mix it's a little skewed, i talked to them about it. it's not a performance metric but just by being intentional and asking them to keep an eye on it, i think that i've seen some of the results of that. we are not there yet. and i think there's still a lot, a long way to go but i think that being aware, talking about it, being intentional about it is really an important first step. >> i believe you've written on this and also in our materials we have one of your articles on this, correct? >> yes, this is a topic that i do have and use.

>> i think all of our, i think facebook has a gift on hiring diverse candidates, ladies and i believe that on all of our interviews, we tried to have at least one underrepresented minority or one woman on the panel. facebook's style of course is because of the tax base rate, making sure they have the amount and the engineering space. the legal department at facebook recently won an award from the national association of women's lawyers for the advancement and women in the legal department so the facebook legal department is doing fairly well in those issues. oculus legal department is smaller, i'm the only woman in the bay area. we have one other lawyer and she is in that area, she

supports our research team up there and i was the first woman hired on the team and i've remained the only woman in the new york offices so we have some work to do there. i hope that we will have some other candidates come through that are sufficient and i will say that virtual reality, i believe is the next moment, i am passionate about it. it's interesting to me, i believe other women will find it interesting and they could enjoy working in this space. i have seen a lot of women go to work at companies that are considered more female friendly with the topic that is less tech focused and i think there's key learning there but i feel like why should i have to work at a business that i'm not that passionate about because i'm a woman and stay at a retail chain or something. i care about technology and i like to be a part of that game in a new platform so i think it's important we have a diverse set here. >> we want you to submit a

topic. [laughter]. i'm very lucky to work for a company that's very dedicated to diversity and in the past year we took on gender payee quality. and this is not the first company to publicly commit to healing salaries of all 17 at that point, 17,000 employees and looking for this kind of deficit. so what i really admire is we made that had committed to fix that. after undertaking this, we did kind of make a test! for those men and women and that was about $20 million to try and prepare that vocation and it's something that we committed to doing on an ongoing basis, it's not something that's just one and

forget about it, you have to continually be reviewing. but i think it's important for, whether you are a law firm or in the very top to first see gender diversity and ethnic diversity and nowadays in other ways. it's something that's definitely delegated to someone or a committee, people want to see that you are personally holding them at the highest level and that you are going to take responsibility for the outcome. >> i have something to add on to this which is what we can all do in our day-to-day work . at facebook we have everybody go through a managing bias training and there's specific tips around how to be more inclusive and manage diverse workforces. i actually tried to call out what i call micro-inequities. it happened just recently

where we were in a meeting and a woman engineer made a point and point somehow was lost in the conversation and i was able to say i think what you're saying is really important and i turned my chair towards her and asked her to speak again about it. to be honest, i don't understand any of the engineering points anyway that i thought that what she was saying was important. i thought it was worth hearing one more time and letting her have the floor and she did, she made her point and it was good. i met other people respond to it in a meaningful way and i think it was helpful to have leave the lawyer in the room acknowledge it area but the way that people presented at meetings, varies and some people don't present the way that makes everyone immediately listen up so i encourage everyone to go ahead and call it out like, everybody's interrupting her. i just refocused it back onto her and i think it worked at that time. >> i want to personally thank every woman here for the role

they are playing . to help be a woman in racial and gender and almost every aspect . i didn't even say that, here in the us we have all the men working and diversity and in fact you've seen jessica who works for us, handed us a piece of questions so write them down because we are going to be going to questions soon. outside counsel area the outside counsel are here as we seen by a show of hands and if you could talk a little bit about what you're looking for because the presentations today, i'm sure everyone would love to get on your list of outside counsel. >> as you answer, if you have any examples of life, best and worst business development approaches, for you, any anecdotes or this

works, this did not, please do not try this, anything like that, that would be appreciated. >> if you recognize the women in the audience you are about to tell a worse approach story. [laughter] we respect their privacy, is that what you are saying to mark. >> we use about 200 law firms and i have found that at every company where i've been in town, it's 200 law firms. if you are international and you have litigation which is state based or locally based, you wind up with a huge number of law firms and i tell you different times that we reduce the number two really put up the firm and i have to say i found that trading off, they even had this one big law firm following it, working with something like three and getting absolutely the best person in that role.

i've always wanted to go for four firms area i think the very best thing, what i'm looking for is someone who is looking out for me personally as well as the company, who really wants to see me or see people on my team succeed as well as helping us get there and one fault we have is a number of lawyers, remember i was at expedia and i was concerned, somebody was coming up and he was a big deal and i was worried suddenly that i had not made a filing which by the way, i had. it was plain. the document had been filed. that lawyer called and left me a message at saturday night and said i got your message about this, i'm going to look into it. it's saturday night, don't worry about it. i've got this. he filed it, you're fine and i'm going to help you solve

this. and i felt like the weight of the world was off my shoulders but someone on my team helped me get, he's always going to help me solve it and that's when i'm really looking for now is outside counsel, who's going to help me solve that issue? who cares about the company personally and cares about me and my team. >> so when i came to the house i learned quickly all the things i had done wrong. because you know, in my own defense i was a junior partner so please forgive me but i was a very apt learner in this space but i think that, here's the things that truly exceptional outside counsel do. one, they get back to you really quickly. the best outside counsel out there means the ones that hit the news all the time,

usually get back within hours. like i'm talking, half an hour to two hours with a quick email that's just got you, it may be like, i'm in tokyo. maybe not tokyo but i'm going to have someone look at this issue and get back to you right away. i think that responsiveness is really important. it also puts you in the queue because we are humans and those who get back to us really fast, we're going to wait for those, especially if you are someone we work with that get our business. so that was one thing. i think with regard to litigation, what i'm really looking for is someone who has litigated against this particular patent, that's been at this judge in this court. if you send me a copy of dns

that says hey, i see you been sued, we love to talk to you, i'm probably not going to have the time to talk to you, mostly because others are sending analysis of that lawsuit and why they are the right people. we've litigated against the best so doing fewer of those or maybe none and doing more of, more targeted, we've litigated against this, this particular plaintiff or in this court will get you a lot further. then i think for the in-house counsel, going to our last point, i tried to remind my team that it really matters to you call at the law firm. because having been that junior partner, you actually don't have a say on whether or not you should have some share of the matter or the client if you don't get the ball, it's hard to have that bottle so if you are interested in that city, especially in the law firm and we know, the aba recently published another study and when i read through it i'm like, there's no change.

years, we haven't actually moved the ball. but the only way we can move the ball is by empowering those talents and minorities and women lawyers and empowering in a law firm means book of business, let's be frank. if you pick up the phone and call that woman lawyer whom you know is good and who's been working on your matters and say i have another matter or i don't know why i'm talking about calling because i usually just email but email and then she can turn around, open up the matter in the conflict system. that becomes her matter to manage. so again, be super intentional. that's how you go and find your counsel. there have been times when i know which lawyer i want and it's not the woman minority because i will call the person i know and say i want you to be my relationship partner and i'm doing this intentionally so you get practice in a relationship