i do want to take this moment to thank senator ayotte for her dedicated service on this committee. we will definitely miss you. your participation in the senate, we wish you well in the next chapter of your life. thank you for your service. i would like to turn it over to senator carper. >> thank you to senator ayotte,

just step down as deputy secretary of the department of homeland security and i am reminded on the heels of what the chairman said, right after world war ii, instant churchill was the prime minister of the country and 6 months later, lost reelection. the reporter said to him it the time, is this the end? he replied famously it is not the end, not the beginning of the end, this is the end of the beginning. it has been a joy to serve with you and thank you for your service and great having you on this committee. this is the end of the beginning. that is all i had to say. i want to start by thanking you

for bringing us together and eyewitnesses for joining us in the debate and taking on tough jobs. important jobs. i am impressed with you and folks you live with, your service lifts those guys, i look forward to being back there with you in the not too distant future. it is an important issue for this committee and for me. to be our chairman, ranking member and member of this committee. everybody in this room and most people in this country want stronger borders. we have a real problem. we want to keep terrorists out of this country. remain with real risks and solutions, focus on the real

solutions. during this season, immigrants and refugees, a grave threat to the country whether or not we heard about walls and deportations not addressing the underlying causes. immigrants come to the us are anxious they will no longer be able to care for tribute to the break country, this includes dreamers who were brought here as children, pooled from schools, may not even remember and i don't think we strengthen our country by blowing contributions of immigrants who turn their backs on refugees, one of the more fabric as country scripture teaches us we have moral obligation to lease these in our society and when i was a stranger in your land, to

treat other people the way we want to be treated him and doing so contributes directly to economic strength, generations are open and diverse, immigrants of all backgrounds continually rich to help us to grow and prosper. at ohio state university, and weighs heavily on my mind and the minds of many across the country. reminds us we continue to be eternally vigilant, must work hard to meet security challenges and moral imperatives and i believe we can do both and must do both. i can believe secure borders, important to recognize regards on the southwestern border. the large-scale and documented

migration from mexico and mexicans go back into mexico from the us and mexican out of mexico to migration, less than 0. men and women toward deserve a lot of credit, the factor for the change strengthening of the mexican -- strong vibrant middle-class. it is important to keep in mind as we talk about open trade agreements. the surge on the southwestern border is a different challenge. thousands of kids, families from el salvador, guatemala, recalling fleeing extreme violence in their own countries in the us and complicit in their misery. and the addiction to drugs, we send them guns, money and they are miserable in a case like

that down there. and to be safer, migrants including many of them living and working in brazil in economic decline, most of these migrants turn into agents, that work for you. unlikely we will fix these challenges with a wall or more border patrol agents. we must address the root causes of migration by helping the governments of el salvador, guatemala and honduras, too many citizens face every day. i talk about home depot for folks in those countries. you can do it. we can help. we can't do it for you, you got to do it, we have an obligation to hell because we are complicity or misery. this past october, a real effort is made by the governments, governments and nonprofits there

to address the extreme poverty and violence and homelessness to make the dangerous journey across mexico to the current border. democrats and republicans, 7 $50 million to support and address difficult conditions to continue bipartisan support. and if they do. they have an obligation to help. the right thing to do given our addiction to lawlessness and instability in that region but we have to work with international partners, to exploit migrants, impressed with that it units in the northern triangle. and criminal traffic efforts, it becomes more sophisticated, the action at home.

that is why i supported comments and cost-effective solutions to strengthen border security and continue to do so. that include investment in advanced surveillance technology which were used effectively as a powerful force multiplying for agencies and others as well. this includes resources down there on both that are not high-tech but provide better visibility across the border. another commonsense solution is staffing ports of entry to make smart investments report infrastructure and how comprehensive immigration reform can be a critical force, can be and should be and the idea of a worker program. they don't -- want to be able to travel and get stuck up here and find it hard to get back. and as republicans and

democratic administration officials testify over the years this would create legal channels for migration, border agents focus on the most significant security risks. comprehensive reform will strengthen us economically for the budget office, congressional budget offices, nonpartisan with reform providing a 5.4% boost in gdp, more than $1 trillion and help keep us in mind as we head into that. thank you for your leadership. >> thank you, i would be remiss if i did not thank you for your partnership over the last two years. is ranking member and bipartisan

committee, and and in some way, shape or form, a pretty good record, valued the example senator lieberman and senator collins did during this committee and i am going to miss you as my ranking member and looking forward to my next -- senator mccaskill is not here but she will be my ranking member on assignment as well. >> i promise nothing far. pleasure to be your wing man. >> we have other members of the customers border union and appreciate their attendance as well as working with them, and it is tradition to swear in witnesses so if you rise and

raise your right hand. do you swear the testimony you give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god? be seated. first witness is mister mark morgan, the current chief of us border patrol customs and border protection in the department of homeland security. chief morgan is the first person outside the agency to be appointed chief of us border patrol, began his career and federal law enforcement in 1996 as special agent of the los angeles feel office of the fbi. during his tenure with the fbi held numerous leadership positions and a new born biography here, provides fbi hispanic passports to focus on the emerging presence in southern california, ms 13 and the street gang, directly to border security. you want to ask questions of that, you have the floor.

>> good morning, distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to allow us to talk about the border patrol. during my first four months i had the privilege to travel to 11 sectors and meet with thousands of border patrol agents, staff and leadership from northern, southern and coastal borders as well as headquarters in dc, canine training facility, special operations, all these interactions across the country one thing was consistent and abundantly clear, men and women of the border patrol have the toughest job in federal law enforcement, they are the most assaulted federal law enforcement in the united states, 7400 border patrol agents have been assaulted since 2006. that rose in fiscal year 16 by 20% and year to date increasing assault of 200% for the previous

year. it is a dangerous job. since my short time here two border patrol agents have been killed in the line of duty. they are faced with unforgiving terrain and weather, limited resources, long hours, adverse conditions and often called upon to go above and beyond what they haven't trained to do. they are tenacious in their pursuit of getting better, they are innovative and have a can-do attitude. dedicated to the mission, country, themselves and doing something greater than themselves. i'm honored to be serving with them. these are my first and most important observations in my first four months here. there for one of my focuses during my tenure will be the relentless advocacy to provide them with tools, training, resources and commonsense policy they need to do their job effectively and safely.

over my 30 year career the challenge we face in the 21st-century concerning law enforcement are unparalleled. the united states border patrol team we are committed to identifying how we can get better and continue to address the challenges we face. there are a few important areas of focus we need to look at as we move forward. sustain and build the border patrol's most viable asset, workforce, on recruitment, retention and diversity, continue to improve on our threat-based intelligence unit and operationally focused strategy to increase situational awareness and confidence levels across every mile of the united states borders. evaluate current policies and laws which impact the mission to protect our nation's borders with emphasis on law enforcement operations and increasing consequences for those crossing our borders, reinforce multilayered enforcement strategy and strengthen our situational awareness by

continuing smart investments in infrastructure, technology, personnel and operation. the same smart investments in our facilities need to be a top priority as well, and we need to enhance agility focusing on global technology and mobile workforce. continue to strengthen law enforcement operations by expanding intelligence driven methodology, encounter network strategies, air and marine operations and integrated operations with our partners both mystically and internationally. when we expand and integrate information technology we need to focus on targeted expansion, human intelligence base, document exploitation capacity and collection and dissemination capabilities, identify personnel needs across the spectrum of physician classifications to be sure we have the correct balance of agents, staff and intelligence analysts the focus and determine alternatives

concerning allocation of resources and support him in a terry and mission, the border patrol is asked to do in an effort to get badges back to the border, develop proactive communication strategy in every to engage internal and external partners and stakeholders and enhance performance measures to reflect our efforts toward our strategy, with litigation effectiveness. as we move forward, we will continue to focus on priority areas, all of which will enhance border patrol facilities to detect, prevent and respond to threats on the nation's borders, we look forward -- i thank you for the opportunity to testify today and look forward to your questions. >> our next witness is miss carla provost, the current deputy chief of us border patrol and customs protection in the

department of homeland security. deputy chief carla provost is the first woman to be appointed deputy chief of the agency's 92 year history. and her 20 year career she held every position in the us border patrol including chief patrol agent of the sector. deputy chief carla provost. >> ranking member carper interesting which members of the committee, privilege to be here today. this is a proud moment for me, my first appearance in a congressional hearing representing dedicated and hard-working men and women of the border patrol. today marks one month into my current position as deputy chief. i spent the majority of my law-enforcement career 22 years serving in the us border patrol. during that time i have seen quite an evolution. i entered the border patrol in january 1995 and as an agent in the field, urban and remote environments worked alongside my colleagues to address threats ranging from illegal

immigration, trucking, trafficking and terrorism are targeting, detecting and interdicting dangerous people and materials. i'm involved with changing and management aspect of border patrol operations across four sectors of all four states in the southwest border. instructing agents in law, firearms, directing budgets and human resources and overseeing operations. when i first came on board there were less than 5000 border patrol agents nationwide. we were processing correction tape. we apprehended 1.3 million people in the southwest border alone. we did not possess the tools or technology agents use today. it was common for the boards to be marked by little more than a barbed wire fence in many places nothing at all. we relied on 1960s aircraft, and

endless activities. we hit the high watermark, 1.6 million apprehensions nationwide. and border security, the tragedy of 9/11 intensified that commitment. as i progress, the border patrol, we began hiring new agents in earnest growing presence on the border dramatically. not only did this increase our situational awareness but impacted local business and economy, many areas along the borders, technology to include night vision and remote video surveillance to improve capabilities. tools like tasers and pepper ball launching system gave new and different approaches. thanks to congress, new patrol

roads and fencing and strategic locations and improvement in many of those in existence. in washington i led the stand up of the center of excellence which is known as law enforcement safety and compliance directive dedicated to optimizing safety, readiness, accountability and operational performance of cbc law enforcement personnel by articulating use of force policy and the highest quality education and training to agents and officers. i served in deputy assistant office of professional responsibility, seeing compliance all programs and policies related to corruption, misconduct, and awareness. i look forward to working with chief morgan and all my

colleagues at border patrol, and our many partners to enhance our operations to protect our nation's borders and assure the safety of the public that we serve. thank you for the opportunity to testify, i look forward to your questions. >> i look forward to questioning. chief morgan, i am concerned about continued flow of unaccompanied children for various reasons. we have not ended incentives for people to come into the country illegally. children continue to take dangerous journeys to mexico to come to this country and lives are being lost, perpetrated on children who become real victims. talk a little bit about how the flow of unaccompanied children overstress is your resources and how it distracts from your other

missions. >> i refer to involvement with uacs and family units, humanitarian at this point. we know otms which are 63% of the apprehensions to include -- just uac and family units, about 43%, 44% of overall apprehensions. rgb alone is closer to 50%, that takes an exorbitant amount of resources and funding to sustain those operations knowing that 100% of those family units are released into the united states. that is why i call that a humanitarian mission. i refer to midnight, i was in a sector where i saw a 6-year-old and 11-year-old in each other's hands that made the trek from

honduras. i don't refer to the 11-year-old as national security law enforcement threat but the border patrol is dedicating a tremendous amount of resources taking those folks in. a lot of resources, professional childcare at this point, rgb alone just established the second cpc and rgb, each of those takes 100 to 120 agents dedicated 100% to processing, taking care of family units. we just recently opened up a temporary holding facility in to reno to help with the first load. everyone is familiar with it. it comes at a high cost to run that facility and provide the

resources. the supervisor in charge said we would do what the country asks us to do but i never thought in my 20 years i would be as part of the procurement ordering baby powder, baby wipes, i just got from one sector where agents, one of the jobs during the day is make sure the food provided are born properly. it takes a tremendous amount of resources to do this. >> talk about the realities on the border when you have a flood 50 years or 100, children and family members where they can be used as a for high-value struggling, sex trafficking, isn't that what is happening? >> yes, we have information with that. smugglers use that as a

distraction. the resources absolutely impacting, comfortable in saying, the humanitarian mission with the uac family units are impacting the ability, law enforcement, i am taking a considerable amount of resources and agents away from the border to take care of this. >> a problem we have not solved. back in july 9, 2014, when chairman carper called the hearing on this and said how do we change the mindset to turn off the faults of parents who say i want my kids to stay and have a future here, how do we do that? it was the right question in terms of how to stop the flow. we have some difference of opinion in terms of the effective way to stop the flow having senator carper, would love to improve conditions in central america so there is not incentive, talking about the paul factor.

putting up our chart, uacs, we see of the children that come here unaccompanied in 2013, 14, 16, the last few years, returning less than 4%. when you come with unaccompanied children from central america, easy to get in here. just walk across the bridge, turn your self in and you are apprehended, processed and dispersed and social media, more children in central america realize increased incentive, pay the fee, take dangerous journeys, isn't that an enormous

problem. >> talking about push pool, we go back a little while. in 2006, 90% of those apprehended were mexican nationals and now we are at 36%. why? a couple things happen, why see the dramatic decrease. one is a consequence delivery system. a couple things happen, we instituted expedited removal so the individuals knew that when they came they were being held and removed. that was a consequence, they knew that and it served as a strong deterrent. >> that is with mexicans or canadians but talk about the difference between mexicans and unaccompanied children or families from central america. >> what is happening with family units in central america, basically the same thing, right now they know if they make it to the border they will be released to the interior of the united states. generally that is done through nta with the notice to appear.

we don't do that, we process and hand them to the next government approach and that is done but that is the reality. they come to the borders and are being released. it sends a strong message to those folks in the country that if you get to the united states border we will let you in. >> back to the process of expedited removal, with humanity bring these kids and send them back to guatemala, honduras or el salvador, dramatically reduce the incentive and flow. would you agree with that? >> the national example, we use the same concept and from 2006 we went from 90% to 36%, we reduced the pool factor by instituting a system of consequences and expedited removal. >> we had a surge from brazil.

the secretary and expedited removal and surge. is that correct? >> in 2005 we had a surge from brazil, received the authority to conduct expedited removal a year prior and started utilizing that and deliver the consequence of expedited removal and actually removal to brazil the numbers decrease. >> my time is expired. >> thanks very much. we have a short period of time. we need secure borders. the best we ever had. the most expensive we ever had because of what we spend and report to thousands of people

who work under your leadership. colleagues heard about, and we welcomed him to the campaigns. we raise more chickens there than any county in america. some of the folks who process chickens come from guatemala so we have significant guatemalan presence in sussex county. two years ago when in search of unaccompanied children, sussex county, what they do, folks who show up on the doorstep, like assistance for them rather than turn a deaf ear to them.

during my meeting with them, the pageboy who arrived recently with her sister and their family. said at 13 he was approached by a gang guatemala, let me talk to my parents, talked to his parents, we don't want you to be in the gang, ended up talking to gang members a couple weeks later, want to be in the gang, ready to join us? not something i want to do. they didn't receive this very well and a couple weeks later, have you changed your mind? i haven't, somebody in your family is going to die. and joined the gang. a couple months later initiation

of gang members to rape his 18-year-old sister. part of the initiation and we are going to get you out of this. if any of us lived in that environment we would want them to be out of guatemala wherever it is. one of our witnesses, what is the name of that witness? from el paso, texas, a year or two ago, talked about a house, talked about the fire department and the fire department coming to the house and setting the house on fire and blocking the doors and driving away. that was the analogy he used. the reason they have the kind of violence down there is drugs and

the flow of drugs through those -- this nation and coming to the borders. and money as i said earlier. what do we do about that? you have done great stuff on the border, great representation and always do more. and our support for the asset or dirge bills, you name it, whatever, unaccompanied manned aircraft. you have 15,000 small businesses basically shut down. we know where jobs come from. 15,000 shut down because of extortion. those other threats i explained, stories i heard, that has to be part of the solution. it can't be just us. 20 years ago senator mccain, somebody started planned

columbia, not the us coming down, it was you got a problem here, you have to fix your problem and we are complicit in our addiction to cocaine. we will help you as well. having said that, there is a reason -- you are on the job as a border patrol agent, 4.3 million people, into custody. it used to be, mostly mexican. into mexico coming out but all those people coming out of guatemala, what more can we do to -- the haystack smaller and some of that involves work

taking place, how does comprehensive immigration form, the guest worker program to work for a while and go back later. >> ci arm is definitely needed. you just alluded to a couple examples of that. >> being comprehensive immigration reform. >> absolutely. there are definite push backs. week government and in some cases violence, economic inequality. those -- i agree with that. from the united states border patrol perspective, looking at the facts, when we do institute consequent delivery system we do see the flow meaning it comes out. that is factual and we show that over the years. we need to have a facilitated

discussion about policy. i can give you one example, credible fear. we know right now smuggling organizations are absolutely using and exploiting credible fear as we know the poaching individuals specifically what to say when they come here, they rattle off and memorize the magic words they need to say, so they fall within the statute of credible fear. we think that is being exploited and going beyond original intent, the example you just used, that is what credible fear is use for but it is being exploited. one thing we do is look at those policies, where it makes sense to have a good facilitated discussion.

and 2000 to 2013, less than 1% incredible fear coming across, exponentially gone and continue to rise. we see that as an issue. going back to the notice to appear, we know that is a pool factor. we know they are communicating and it doesn't matter, you get here you will be released would say the magic words or don't say the magic word you will be let into this country. we need to have a discussion about utilization of the nta to make sure we are applying it where it is needed going forward. that needs to be part of this discussion on immigration reform. >> i'm out of time. i think this pertains, no silver bullet. a lot of them are bigger than

others. >> i really appreciate the well attended hearing so let's keep it to seven minutes. to keep the question and answers to proceed and everybody can have a chance to ask questions. >> appreciate your having the hearing today. it is a critical time. welcome to the committee, un deputy chief carla provost, we appreciate what you guys do every day. to a certain extent you are working under constraints, difficult to do your job. i will talk about drugs and the transnational criminal organizations to bring them across the border. as you know the congress, senate and house, legislation, comprehensive addiction recovery act. senator ayotte is one of the original co-authors of that. it is groundbreaking and

historic. we have had other witnesses talk about the importance of reducing the demand for drugs, prevention, education, recovery, prescription drugs on the shelf, that is all important. we have an opportunity the next couple days for the new legislature to put those efforts and it is important, that is the core but it is a huge issue with drugs going across the border. we have the opportunity to increase the price of these drugs, some statistics indicate it is only 1% or 2% of these drugs across the border. recently we had testimony before this committee indicating 100% of the heroin, 90% of the cocaine is coming across the border, much of it from mexico with regard to heroin.

even methamphetamines come across the border from mexico, my question is what can you do to adopt is drugs and increase the price, stop the consequences of these organizations, and of course make these other governments in central american companies, much more vulnerable to corruption and frankly if you look at these numbers they are increasing. my first question, my statistics are right, are we only stopping 1% or 2% of these drugs that are coming over the border in coming into our communities? >> first and foremost, the

amount coming across, we track everything we apprehends and you are correct we are having numbers of methamphetamine, heroin, cocaine and marijuana crossing our borders. that being said we have all the resources we can to the best of our ability to try to detect and apprehends, whether it be ports of entry at the border or border patrol agents as well with our multilayered approach further under the country, we use resources such as k-9s, continuously trying to improve training of our agents so we are better at interdicting, that being said, it is a difficult thing to measure and for fiscal year 17, everything trending down except methamphetamines which is up -- in 2016. >> if i could interrupt, that concerns us because we see an

updated overdose, and in the home state of ohio, everybody on the front line saying the same thing, it is cutting worse, not better and this is the source of the biggest increase which is heroin. synthetics talking about male primarily, we have less control but you care a lot about that too. you are saying you are apprehending less of it but we are seeing more of it. >> that is through the beginning of fy 17, the last two month, numbers are down slightly but trending closely across the board to where we were last year. when we talk about how much we interdict is a difficult number 2 determined, that being said, all the resources we have to the best of our ability to interdict

and it is a focus, it has been my entire career. and in the past to assist us, have grown in our capacity with k-9 officers and such, utilizing other sources. >> let me interrupt again. every resource at your disposal, ask for help from operations, the dod, help with terms of monitoring and just the transporting to these drugs and misunderstand by air across the border on small strips. why are you not accessing the resources that are available to you. >> to continue that operation. >> you are changing your view on that and asking help. >> from my perspective i agree with you that we need help.

>> do you need additional resources beyond operation phalanx? >> yes. it is important for this committee to hear because i don't know if it is 2% that you are able to stop but it is a small number, new detection, monitoring capabilities but it is not working, to stop the flow of the poison. the cure is going to be on the demand side. we got to do a better job. >> i agree. it goes threat-based operation focused approach as well. we need to increase counter network strategy. we need to work through domestic partners and continue to work with international partners in canada and mexico and fight the enemy and stop it before it touches the border.

those are things we are doing but we need to get better. >> to the committee, what you need from the coast guard, our military, and other resources, from other federal agencies, to make progress on increasing apprehensions. >> could i just mention the requirement to use drones, drones are flying out of arizona. there is a requirement to coordinate with the military to use drones and finally, things are not improving as far as manufactured mexican heroin concerns. it is an epidemic, just because it is slightly better, it is totally unsatisfactory.

>> thank you, mister chairman. i will narrow this to a question i hope you will answer but i want to give voice to the fact i have been hearing senator in the state of wisconsin and reading in the news reports of a significant escalation, harassment, bullying and hate incidents directed to immigrants to african-americans, muslims and other minorities in recent weeks and it has been very distressing to hear my constituents accounts, southern poverty law center is tracking

the hateful incidents in the weeks after the recent election. and the top common type of harassment being reported. i had received communication with a wide number of individuals, tomahawk, wisconsin, my son who is adopted from guatemala was approached by a classmate. there was a documented report of an anonymous hate mail to a family in wisconsin, 11 adopted

children from the us. race wars are on. it is not happening in wisconsin, across the country, deeply concerning to me, the values we hold as americans. i have also heard from constituents in the immigrant community about their very real fears about potential anti-immigrant policies about the incoming administration. for example i heard from green card holders that they are afraid to travel in the next few months because they fear they may be turned away are subject to additional scrutiny when they seek to return to the united states. so i want to ask you in

connection with helping to reassure my constituents, other legal immigrants, that nothing will change in the us border patrol process determining immigration status and i would like to hear about the training your officers received on the treatment of individuals in the border patrol custody including harassment and discrimination against immigrants and other minorities. >> first of all everything you described goes against everything i personally believe as an american. i agree with you 100%. as far as the united states border patrol, what we are doing and how we are doing it is not going to change. the current law policies we have been directed to operate under,

we continue to operate. when that changes we will change and that supports the policies we are directed to do but right now we understand the law and the policies as written, united states border control will comply with those policies going forward, there won't be a change, immigration reform and if there are no policies we will adjust accordingly. as far as training at the academy, a significant topic at the academy we actually have one of the best leaders in the united states border patrol, patrol agent harris had numerous conversations with him, my former life i was an assistant director of the fbi academy as well where these things were talked about as well. those are critical things we need to focus on and continue to focus on. >> can you provide additional detail on the curriculum during the training other than the

broad comments you made? >> i can't provide specific topic areas but i can follow up. >> my understanding is us border patrol is currently 50% over capacity at its holding facilities and i understand you are in the process of building additional temporary facilities which will provide medical attention, clothing and other resources to women and children. in addition to service on this committee i serve on the homeland security subcommittee and appropriations committee, with that in mind can you speak to what resources are currently needed with regard to dealing with overcapacity issues in your

holding facility. >> a 500 bed capacity right now, comes at a high cost. we are positioned to open up more areas where we have overflow, 100% capacity. and holding facilities necessary for us to deal with the overflow. it comes at a high cost. it is from a-the end really is childcare professional stuff we are doing, clothing, feeding them, getting the medical attention and making sure they get appropriate meals during the day and have snacks and meals are warm and all the stuff we should be providing a child and mother and father of the child, that is what we are doing but as the numbers continue to increase

our capacity becomes strange and we go to extreme measures to do the right thing. >> senator ayotte. >> thank you, chairman. i wanted to follow up the questions on the apps interdiction that the southern border, and this is something i focused in the armed services committee along with the chairman of that committee, chairman mccain in terms of working with our leaders enhancing their resources for interdiction because those networks as i understand it can be used to traffic anything. it is a national security issue as well. can you tell me, what is it that would be most helpful to you in terms of increasing our ability to interdict especially the devastation senator portman referenced when it comes to

heroin? >> we have to strengthen those partnerships. we have to strengthen the intelligence mechanism encountering network operations domestically and international partners to take the fight to them. if they made it to the border we in essence already lost. we really got to strengthen that intelligence apparatus. >> the armed services committee, there is a rule where the role of the military, their role, their partnerships. >> we need to work with the intelligence community as well. and the border by great men and women border patrol, the border is overwhelming in a good way, we need to make sure the stuff we know and the stuff we get are

getting to the right people so they can do what they need to do in an overseas environment. we need to get better at it. >> i want to ask about the northern border, senator heitkamp have a northern border review at the past a house, chairman johnson and senator peters, appreciative of that. as a northern border state this is important to me as well, what is your view that the potential issues at the northern border, i know those issues are issues that can impact our national security. with your assessment of where we are in the northern border, what

will be helpful? >> the further dialogue, the focus on the northern border is a good thing. i'm trying to use the right adjective to talk about the northern border. i am concerned about the northern border and the threats, what we talk about, the threat-based intelligence driven operation approach, what we need to do is make sure we are focused on threats, not just numbers and i will use an example real quick. the interdiction effectiveness rate we all know. don't think that is a great measure. if we apprehended 100,000 gang members, it will be the same. we are talking about what is behind it. and we deal with the numbers, it

is allocation resources, the measures and matrix, focused on the threat and activity. >> thank you for what you do. >> thank you both for your service, i stand humble for what you do on a daily basis. the job you are doing is the safety of my community and new jersey and all of us so the greatest threat facing the nation, you are on the front line protecting us and issues undermining households from drugs to terrorism, i am grateful for that. in addition a person who

undermined leadership when i was there, over 1000 officers and first responders, many folks do not know the kind of pressures and challenges frontline law enforcement face every single day. the incredible danger, unrelenting, sometimes, abuse officers face. i want to echo sentiments of my colleagues expressing the appreciation. when you talk about being a leading agency with officers, that is very frustrating. i want to commit to you, my colleagues agree, reach out to me, to support the mission that is central to your success, protecting the well-being of your officers, to make sure they are doing what they need to do. i have a concern under my

leadership with officers, i did everything i could to drive down analytics, making sure they had tools to protect their safety, technology to protect them. one thing i didn't build out early in my time as mayor which came back a shocker to me to violate my values was i didn't build up a set of metrics to measure how my officers were interacting with the public and the aclu and others were making allegations, racial profiling, treatment, we were arguing over things that there was no transparent analytic to measure. you and i share the same values for first responders. 21st-century test for policing urges federal law enforcement agencies to collect, maintain,

analyze demographic data and added the culture of transparency, law enforcement agencies should regularly post on a department website, summonses, arrest, reported crime, and once i saw my data and began to cooperate to make it public, i found everything started getting better. you don't collect data, i was stunned to find that out because i know the integrity of your agency would want to know as a manager who you are pulling over, all the things the aclu is compiling, aclu recovered 600 pages of complaint alleging abuse by border patrol agents including racial profiling, yet >> case resulted in disciplinary action. i was in a similar situation with all the evidence, very little disciplinary action on me

until we started shining a light using objective data so i would like to know again, why aren't you collecting the data, analyzing and crunching it and doing it in a transparent way to deflect a lot of the criticism officers make because some things are not true but help you as managers to better manage your agency through the integrity you hold as professionals. >> first of all, thank you for your kind words about how tough it is to do this job on behalf of men and women of united states border patrol, i'm not in a dangerous position, they are the front lines every day. on behalf of them, thank you. they are the front lines and protecting our families so thank you very much. second, i agree with you. everything you just said. we should be doing that for those exact edge that will shine

a light positively. i will turn to the deputy chief to talk about what we are collecting. i to know we are collecting most of that stuff. we need to get better at analyzing that stuff and getting that stuff public. that is what we need to do. .. another area of just figured out analytics to measure the treatment of people wants you have the conditions in the

federal case were starting today and i know don't reflect our common values and the ones i know you share. thank you. >> if i may just touching on the first with the data collection. we are in my role in the office of professional responsibility following on the chiefs roll, we've been working diligently with both the border patrol and field operations to improve our transparency across cbp. as you know that was one of the commissioners priorities. is said that numerous times. there's a lot of improvement on data collection. we have further to go when it comes to that, just the sheer size of our organization with over 45,000 sworn officers. we are working on this together. it is something we realize we need to continue to improve upon. we work closely with many ngos in relation to any other complaints to the office of professional responsibility is

expanding as well to assess what comes to investigations of any allegations against our employees. as the chief mission, how hard is also been. our use of force have decreased over regularly over the last couple of years. we are showing improvement. were focusing on our work with the public in general and we realized that there is need for improvement there. just quickly to touch on the representation of women. the border patrol does have a lower number of women. it has been around 5% since the 20 years i've been in the border patrol. that being said, working with our office of human resources management we are taking a lot of steps to try to improve and to seek out more women. i myself was a police officer before joining the border patrol. the border patrol is different work for much of the law enforcement work and it has been a very we have struggled to

increase our number of women but we are working on the year i think we're making strides in that area so that we have a more diverse workforce. >> senator ernst? >> thank you, mr. chair. thank you both for being here. we appreciate your service to our nation very much. i am encouraged by the cbp's engagement with dod to increase efforts to facilitate and expedite the hiring of our veterans as they leave the service. while i support your efforts as a better with previous experience working at a job assistance center at fort benning in a transition assistance program. i am very much aware of the numerous more than i can count, and often overlapping federal employment programs for veterans. they reside in summary different departments across the federal government, and i have worked

there with my colleagues in the senate, including senator john mccain who is the sponsor of the border jobs for veterans act, to ensure any efforts on this front actually achieve the goal of recruiting outgoing service members for positions like yours. we believe this will help sal the fragmentation or overlap that we see in the number of those programs. and can you please provide committee with more details about how cbp is currently engaged with our dod to help these retiring or transitioning service members? >> yes, ma'am. as a former, current i guess consider myself united states marine, this is a great program. our human resources would be able to give you more details but i can tell you they run -- they won an award this year for their interaction with military counterparts and we are seeing extreme positive benefits.

they are increasing their recruitment events across the country at military installations and abroad. a couple of things they're looking at in detail which is because the right thing, a couple of hours of reciprocity. physical fitness. you have somebody from military, do we need to have them go through that again when they are physically fit and they have already taken a physical fitness test within a certain time period with we are looking at reciprocity for polygraph. do we need to put them through another one? there's a lot of initiatives that our human resource division is looking at to increase that. >> could i just make a point? right now it takes 18 months, right, to receive the clearance so you can be employed by the border patrol, right? >> its improve dramatically now. >> why is it a veteran cannot immediately be hired if that

veteran has already gone through all this screaming? >> that's exactly what they're looking at. they are trying to look at all -- >> let's do more than look at it, okay? it's outrageous. let's do it. >> absolutely. >> sorry to interrupt. >> you are fine, senator mccain. the point is right will take and that we have a huge number of qualified personnel that are leaving a service, they are will fit to go into border patrol and they are used to the extreme lifestyle that you engage in. so it's a great fit, and with women as well. we have a great number of phenomenal women veterans that are exiting our services in the soviet great place for them to further their careers. >> with the senator yield for just one moment? clarification. 18 months is outrageous. you indicated it has improved dramatically. to what extent?

>> i'm not sure of exact number but i know the reduced fat and half. i think we are looking at under a year right now. >> come back to us soon in writing if you would. >> if i could just engage in aquatic weed in the second. those leaving the military does have the clearances, why couldn't you higher that person immediately? >> yes, sir. >> why would he take a your? >> i think my face looking at is probably not the right word. they are actively pursuing initiatives to make that happen. and also actually the vast majority of folks that we're looking at don't necessarily have the clearances and the backgrounds, they went through a not quite as extensive as some of the backgrounds that we do. but the point is taken. to see looking at is not the right way. they are actively pursuing every opportunity with a can expedite that and give that reciprocity for every area they can't. >> what you can take away from

the shooting is you will have support for those initiatives, and the sooner the better. >> bipartisan support. >> thank you to mr. chair. i appreciated the discussion each of you can see that this is topic we are all very passionate about. and begin service members are a great fit for your organization, and so we want to see active engagement. we want to see progress in this area. if there is a way we can engage into a better job at that, we need to. thank you. i would like to thank my committee members for engaging in the discussion as well. chief morgan, i'd like to go back. you had acknowledged earlier in this hearing that a number of the uac's are released into the interior of our country, which is concerning. i have grave concerns about how our government handles those of uac's once they cross the border. i give a specific example year

there was a uac named edwin who came across the border. he went on to kill a young woman, sarah root, who was from iowa, was from iowa how and we learned that hhs had lost track of them what's it been released to his brother. this gentleman has gone on to who knows where. we are uncertain whether this person is and, unfortunately, the family of sarah root has not been able to see justice. it's hard to see whether they will receive justice in their lifetime. sarris was unfortunately cut very short. i understand the difficulty of the problem that we have when it comes to polling factors, and i would like to make sure that we are addressing those polled factors that will pull others into our nation. but also want to take a look at those push factors, too. you have identified a number of

reasons out there, drug interdiction is one. we have people consuming drugs in the country. they are getting drugs into our country. we do have many counter drug training centers all across the united states. one is at camp dodge, iowa, for the midwest region. can you speak to the involvement of our iowa national guard and national guard all across the country, and the counter drug programs? is that beneficial to your organization? >> it kind of goes back to the operation. i think anytime we can leverage our national guard our military assets it's a good thing. and so we are able to do that. it's been a positive impact. >> very good. and that is something you believe we should continue to invest in? >> yes, ma'am. i forgot what sector i was at and i was talking actually one of the cbp pilots was actually a

national guard pilot as well. so we had a really good dialogue. he let me fought a helicopter for a little bit. i'm not sure i was supposed to say that. but he had a really good dialogue. what we talked about was he felt the national guard members, he wasn't sure who got more out of it, whether the border patrol or the pilots that were participating because that's about as realistic training as you can get to support the border patrol operations. so truly is a win-win. >> very good. thank you very much for your time. we had a very lively discussion, but it certainly there are things we need to do better as congress, we need to know what those things are and how we can enable you. so thank you very much for your time and attention this morning. >> senator peters. >> on one. thank you to both of our witnesses for your service to our country and you work. it's a difficult job you have to know both of you are fairly new to the position but you are both very seasoned so you hit the

ground running and i thank you for that chief thank you for that you, chief morgan and deputy chief provost as well. he spoke before then and i'm impressed i deputy chief provost, the fact you spend so much time in a few. under the perspective you bring from the field will be very much appreciated at headquarters as well as appreciated by the men and women are in the field and each and every day. so thank you both for what you do. chief morgan, i know as you been diving into this job you have been focused on making a priority to visit patrol offices all across the country. as a senator from michigan i hope that will be a priority to get to michigan soon as well in the northern border which represents a number of unique challenges and every region of country we can also talk about our unique challenges but one in particular for us is the great lakes environment in michigan. and the fact with seasons in winter and affect we've had from previous hearings talking about protecting the maritime

environment, heard from cbp as well as cbp as well as the u.s. coast guard, when you think i discovered you can then walk across larger part of that border. the coast guard ships, the use of i.c.e. breakers will not have that kind of monitoring system so there are some unique challenges and you'll learn, i'm sure you're aware but you will learn more about that when you go to michigan. are you planning on doing that sit in? [inaudible] >> good. it's good to be in the winter when you see the i.c.e. itself. the other thing i want to pick up on is just briefly and to pick up on both senator baldwin and senator booker's concern, because i hear those concerns in my community. michigan is a very diverse state, large latino population but particularly larger arab american, muslim-american community. there are some real concerns i've heard as well, folks who are fearful about what the future may hold for them. it's a concern we need to deal

with but i also heard from mike stakeholders, or stakeholders in this debate from southeast michigan around detroit will we have a very large concentration of folks from all over the world. they've been very appreciative of the border patrol and the close communication it was a local sector chief. these meetings have gone a long way to building trust. there's been some very positive things that have come out of that. they asked me to encourage you to continue that kind of open dialogue and perhaps to get some feedback as you are starting this position, how do you see that kind of communication continue with sector cheese, and other other things you'd like to see we can go further on? >> yes, sir. absolutely. in fact, at headquarters we are starting a new unit strategic communications. it's all things communications both internal, external.

there's a great phrase, is harder to hit it up close. our leadership has to get out there. i have gone around 11 sectors and many, many stations and the packs i've talked to there after that are leading the way, the agents that are out there. it's not just the leadership. you go there and it's an individual relationships that the agency of with the rangers, with the community. disco such so far and helping that perspective. and really bring everybody so the more we talk, the more we can be involved as a positive thing and i have encouraged that from day one and look at -- will continue to encourage that. >> if we could be involved when you come to should let us know when you're there. perhaps we could assist in connecting you with some groups of individuals who have concerns and would love to have the opportunity to meet you personally and have a discussion about some of their experiences. if we could facilitate that survey would appreciate that.

>> i think it's been some of my most informed discussion of sitting down, breaking bread with the rangers, talking to the community, absolutely. we laughably do that. >> i appreciate that. want to pick up on senator ayotte talked about the northern border security review at which a work with her and senator heitkamp and johnson. it is now both the house and the senate. emissions of aspects to make sure resources are properly allocated both the southern and northern border to talk about the northern border strategy and how we have to the threat-based approach. and look at that and not just the numbers. and so i would like you to just talk to that a little bit more, diving a little bit deeper in the fact i know you resource constraints. you've got long borders, the northern border is considerably longer than the border we have in the south.

how is that being done now? and your idea that we need to be more focused on threat-based issues, how do you see that changing? is there anything we need to do at the congressional level to help you make those informed decisions to ensure proper resources both in the south and in the north? >> there's a couple things going on right now. there's want initiative called the ccat. basically what that is, it's a pretty decent process that we're going through that should tell us where our resources are needed regardless of only numbers. we are really again looking at it in a holistic approach. we are doing the same on personnel. it's again a system to look under personnel needs, on a series of factors. as i am redoing that the challenges i have with that is

it's really, i find the systems to be a little bit too much focused on activity-based, meaning numbers. and so i am asking questions about those to make sure we're pushing the threat there. because some out again i use the analogy of the 100,000, six year olds and one of thousand drug dealers, the way we measure that right now, the output is the same. we really need to adjust that and we need to look at the so what of those numbers. part of that is a is that the northern border. the numbers are relatively low of apprehensions. we need to make sure we're looking at in a different way, reframing the. it's not just about numbers. that's going to be a cultural shift for the organization but we need to make sure we're doing that going forward. one thing that can help, when you start talking about personnel i think what we did in the past a little bit and what i

am concerned that we shouldn't do the same, talk of personal, only thinking about -- start taking a look and have a discussion about the personnel we also need, i have it in my opening comments, is the kind of personal. i think we need more intelligence analysts as well to help us frame out the threat-based intelligence driven approaches will soar needs are not always just border patrol agents. i say we don't need more border patrol agents but we definitely need other demographics as well. >> thank you. my time is expired. >> senator tester. >> thank you for having the strength of think you both for your service. appreciate you being here today. one of the problems that customs border protection as is it was towards the bottom of the list of best places to work. you've been six months as she been cheated have you initiated any kind of programs to bring that up? >> yes, sir.

the survey which a thing everybody is fully with, the federal employee, goes out the. we took that. i think that just scratches the surface. that's a single data point. what we did was we came up with this human capital sure the team. we brought the company from outside in, talked reminded people from mechanics to sector cheese and did a deep dive. we brought back leaders and did a deeper dive to really hear what the agents are saying, what their concerns are. from that we develop several recommendations and actually i think the e-mail on my desk waiting for that enough to go out to the workforce with the enumerating what those recommendations are and then how we are going to put active teams together to action that. we are taking a look at, i'll give an example, the pay, that's hard. the more i learned about that

can i just shake my head. what we're trying to do is where we can influence a change. one example, k-9. border patrol does it right. they take the dogs home. they become bonded. it together. the dogs are better. a handler is better. take them home, it's a good thing and they we don't pay them for the time they spent taking care of the dogs until. i don't think that's right. right now it takes a legislative change to get that sort something we need your help on to get that change. that's one example. >> we will work on the issue before we can work on it again. it's not a problem. as you look at the overall structure do you believe the top management versus the folks on the ground has the right ratios of? >> you know, i'm hesitant to use the word taking a look out. for months, i am taking a look at that. i've talked to the unit about that as well.

they have at go to their concerns about that ratio. so i am collecting data on that. >> okay. and so we talked a little bit about stepping on the northern border and i think the process that you go through to higher folks can be pretty long, or the cumbersome. do you have any recommendations to expedite the process of? >> i think that really probably is something that we really need to bring that to our human resources people to give you the details. i can tell you they've done an incredible job. they have cut that inhabit. >> they cut the time and have already? >> yes, sir. they develop these hiring hubs. instead of going to five different locations to do all these, you go to one spot and get knocked out like six deaths in the process. so my suggestion is we need to do more of that. we need to look at stuff like the military a look at where we

can do reciprocity for polygraphs and stuff like that. another thing i would say is i think the best recruiter for a border patrol agent is nice if border patrol agent or a dedicated to make sure if you look at the passport withdrawal, they did it and did a darn good job. i'm dedicated to make sure we are doing more resources, border patrol agents to higher board privileges. >> a number of people in the northern border, north dakota, montana, i do know if it's true in other places. we have a hard time keeping folks. it's the best place in the world, people just don't know that. so the question is when you come to recruit, do you have a plan to recruit in some of the more frontier areas? you will negotiate a pretty good size and hope and go fishing on some pretty good streams. do you have a recruit a plan for those areas?

>> one will be whenever this job, i think i may move up there after my tour. i agree with everything you said. we are working on we can't get a better focused recruitment events. >> can i make a suggestion? you've got a ton of small schools and big schools by north dakota and montana standard for a lot of people don't know about the career opportunities. quite frankly if you are able to send and get a hold of those counselors and even make appearances, you are going to get people to not only live there but want to live there to do the job you do. and like you said if you can of the people who wear the uniform go up and talk to these kids about the opportunities, i think you would be quite successful. states like montana we serve in the military a higher rate than just the any other state percentage per capita. north dakota is probably ahead of us. it solves a problem so that's just a suggestion. you talked about how important

they are. how deficient is the budget? is a 25% less? isn't about what needs to be? is a to i? >> i don't know. i haven't done a deep enough died. went i've got to every single sector, southern, northern border, the issue is resounding from the chiefs and the shares better participate in the program. they are like more. i need to do at deeper dive for me to be able to personally tell you that. what i'm hearing from a sector cheese and law enforcement, sheriffs, it's a great program and they want more. >> another sector along the same lines because you farmers, ranchers who live on the northern border another property, effective you know what as good as the back of the rain. we have come at the agency have an outreach program to make sure they're on board? i can give you an example, 10 years ago we went up to the

northern border and there wasn't a very good relationship. that has changed over the last 10 years. is the outrage being done to those farmers and ranchers to let them know they are appreciated and they can be eyes and ears to help you out? >> what i've seen i can ask of you say yes. i've seen on the car into an icing agents that are on the light and the relationships they have with those land owners and ranchers. i've seen it firsthand. there's always room for improvement. we are doing citizens academy type things as well where we are bringing people in. i think that's what's happening. >> i would say this. i think this committee and the appropriations committee are very open to make sure you the resources you need to keep this country safe along the northern as well as the southern border. we just need to have the information. when it comes to recruitment, when it comes to whether we have the technological manpower

resources, we've got to the information. it's got to be good information otherwise we will make bad decisions. i don't know what you are allowed to do but do what you can do so people know what the challenges are on both borders. thank you. >> senator lankford? >> thank you both again for all the ongoing service event for a very long time and want your continued to do. i have a whole series of questions and i'll try to get to as many as i can. chief, either been there a whopping six months now and you've made a lot of progress and dug in a lot you're looking at a lot of things at this point and we appreciate that very much. before you came in about five months before in january of this year the inspector general put out a report on the special operations group program, budgeted 8 million. it came in at 33 million inspector general came back and said there's no metrics that are attached to it for oversight measures. are usually with a report? if you are, can you comment on it, if not can you follow up

with what progress is being made? >> i am not and i will follow-up. >> fair enough. in your statement you put in you maybe comment, kind of an offhand comment quite frankly but it was interesting that you mention volunteer returned and you put a, the least effective and efficient consequence. it's an offhand comment about volunteer returned. can you give me additional detail about that? >> so volunteer returned, if you look back in time, basically it was just that. we would apprehend someone at the border and say okay, go back. what that caused, for agents back in the day, back in the day whether there was an agent could actually end up apprehending the same person three or four times in the same shift because there was no consequences. there was no deterrence. so to do of vr today, which just doesn't make sense. so what's the alternative?

is a something we fixed in the statute? >> i think statutorily, you know, i guess we could have a dialogue to just remove it as an option in its entirety. >> it has been a concern. there's been dialogue about what you just said. it is a volunteer returned, they know the term as you mentioned before. they're coached on what terms to use, whether that be fear or a silent of all the different statements are voluntary return. they are able to cross right back over, move a mile down the road in to pick up again. how many times do you think that should be allowed to? you know you do with a person that is where there is a border. they are aware they have crossed the border illegally and should they be able to do that 20 times? five times, three times? >> not ever. the first time you cross there should be some type of consequence that leads to a deterrence. >> thank you. any other comment? >> now my.

i would echo what the chief was saying in relation to the. we do utilize much more not expedited removal which has been a huge benefit for us having that ability over the last decade. >> you both mentioned at the beginning of this your concern about terrorism and terrorist activities or materials move across the border as well as drugs. we've talked about the movement of drug smuggler as well as human smuggling. you have mentioned some of things about terrorism. can you give us any additional detail about that? >> it's a challenge in an unclassified setting but i think again i will go back to that approach of what its onboard to be that threat-based intelligence driven approach. again we spend a lot of time talking about uac's income units. i don't see that six year old at midnight as a national security threat but i'll go to the northern border, its open-source.

we know there are individuals in canada that are self radicalized. we know that. we know the connection to international terrorist organizations that's open-source. it's that type of threat that concerns me. and so when we did with our majors, even with our strategies, again, not only do it to talk about the numbers, that's always going to be a component but we need to focus on that threat. what i can say is there is, there are threats out there that concern me. >> let me dig deeper. you've been asked a couple times just about what you need. you mentioned partnerships, cooperation. can i take that into the next level? what this partnership mean to you? is the additional personnel, is that co-locating in situations, is that materials? what is it when you talk about additional partnerships? >> all of that. >> i know senator portman mentioned to you has requested,

let me add to it as well, can you send it back to us in writing for us to be able to do our jobs effectively we think we need this. that gives us greater clarity. even we talk about technology needs, there's been experimentation with technology. there's been a lot of variety in aviation weather that has been unmanned, multiple platforms for helicopter and aircraft and fixed wing, country at which one is most effective. do we need to making all of these? all of those things come into as we try to make decisions on this committee. of not just when you to help you with partnerships but mechanics of what they need. so the more detail we can get the better. better. let me back up to technology and aircraft. there has been a lot of debate whether fixed wing or whether that is unmanned. what is the most effective, the most efficient, least cost in it to get best bang for the buck? and other technology pieces that are giving you a good return.

if we go back for years, we are spending a billion dollars on a program that didn't work. what technology is working? >> i agree with everything you just said and i think i don't need to say it, it's so unique from sector to sector so one size doesn't fit all. there could be areas where rotary wing to aircraft is effective, man, they get a small unmanned platform would be more effective in an area. so it really is, it's a complicated process that's determined to be smart about it, use the money wisely to forget what asset we need where. that is part of the process i was talking about, capabilities initiative that we are doing. we are well underway with that. i think it's going to provide this committee with exactly the information. we do need additional stuff. we need additional assets operational assets, the horses, attendance, et cetera. technology more. infrastructure, yes.

on the bodies, it's tougher to say right now exactly what we need and how much and where, and we are working through that. >> terrific. that report will be finalized when? >> i'm not sure. spent give me a guess, a your? >> fy '17. >> that helps. can also ask you to take into consideration sustainable you do that as well? there's conversation about this is what we need. the next question is how many people, once a sustainment to be able to keep the for the ongoing conversation. thanks for the exit 40 seconds, mr. chairman. >> thank both of you. earlier this month i visited portal. i talk about portal all live in this committee because we are particularly challenge in those areas whether it's grand forks sector, in terms of personal.

it is absolutely critical that we have an employment plan, and i want to reiterate what senator tester said. i think we can find some good folks right there. senator lankford and i held a hearing where we talked about employment regarding recruitment of millennials, and your personal officers from dhs came with a new burst of energy. so we are looking forward to hearing a report and what she was doing. some really creative ideas. but i do want to point out again the northern border. the bill that will inevitably get signed into law by the president, hopefully in the next couple of weeks will put demands on you to inform the public and inform this committee and the congress about what those threats are. and what it takes in terms of personnel and equipment and technology to basically meet those threats. so i just want to once again

encourage you to not only meet the deadline in the bill but maybe bring it in a little early. because as you can see there's a great deal of concern. and a great deal of publicity now about what's happening on the northern border. so with that said i want to talk about canada. we had a great conversation i think yesterday but i think for the record if you would reiterate the kinds of things you are doing with their counterparts in canada they can, in fact, expand personnel and provide more situational awareness. we've got a huge advantage in the northern border that we don't have anne sullivan border which is a trusted and long-term partner in terms of keeping the border secure. if you could just give us a rundown on your work with canadian officials that would be great. >> a couple different initiatives. the international border enforcement team that is there,

it's a mix of canadian law enforcement and u.s. forces are mainly border patrol. there's a few other entities. it's a great initiative. it's part of a quintessential task forced government. they are a trusted allies and thirst be affected. we need to contain to expand on that. when it comes to national security intelligence information, that's probably an area we need to continue to expand on. the communication flow can be a little cumbersome at times. it has to go up to more of a national level and it doesn't always get down to the folks on the line as expeditious as it should we recognize that. old site recognize that. we are looking for more opportunities where we can do integrated operations, more of that. it's not just about sharing information and intelligence. it's taking the, analyzing it

and action in that across the board and be able to do more that. i think we should and can do more of that going forward is a just a couple efforts. >> i want to reiterate what you've been talking about earlier, which is that our tasks being performed by guys and gals wearing badges they really could be done to other professionals, special as relates to the unaccompanied minors issue. and so just to encourage when you're looking at the report to look very closely at those tasks that the guys in green should be performing and where we can transfer out. i'm going to be specific on this but it does concern me. one of the biggest concerns from the border patrol agents i talk to when i was at portal is communication. many times on the border you get bounced off a canadian tire, you get bounced off the radio tower in north dakota and they're out there with no cell coverage and

no radio coverage. that is not a formula for success. especially when they're going after rely on the sheriffs to get them back up if they encounter an event. can you please look into communications on the northern border? especially in remote locations. we out to those people put on the badge and walk out the door every day not knowing, there, not knowing whether they will come back. we all do them to to give them the best equipment. i want to just turn to the southern border because i spent a fair amount of time down there. chief, you'll probably laugh at this but can you paint your cars a different color than white? [inaudible] >> i'm serious about this because i think, you know, because i think obviously, you know, not that you should be clandestine effort but if you

are a spot on the hill in mexico and you're walking some drugs across the border and you see a white truck coming on the border, it's pretty easy to radio down to the guys who are carrying contraband and say a void this or avoid data. i do think there's some advantage to having a vehicle that is less likely to be spotted. and we know this happens. they are up on the hill, right? the are watching your every minute, special is a moving product of any kind of value. and so your ability to move in a way and respond to it in a way without early detection can be enormously valuable. it's just a thought. i'm passing it on from the folks on the southern border who look at this and say this is a problem. and i want to encourage you to continue, and i know you have, and i'm grateful for that, your ongoing outreach to the rangers, both on the southern border and the northern border.

"see something, say something," we've got to great relationships where people are all in this together. i think you are down, he visited with the rangers on the southern border. good reports coming back from that, so thank you. keep up the dialogue and keep up the open communications. those guys know a lot. they been on that land. they know their land like the back of their hand. so thank you, both of you for putting on the uniform every day representing all of us and take some of the toughest work that's done in america. really appreciate it. >> i have to for the lines of questioning. one has to do with incentives. we talked earlier about the fact that no expedited review for kids and family units from central america. just create than senator if he did in the country used a. i want to talk about other incentives as well. what about sanctuary cities? to what extent does that, again,

incentivize people to come your? they know they've got jurisdictions. they will not be deported. do you want to speak about the? >> i think probably from a perspective of border patrol, when we look at those factors i probably don't look beyond the fact of a notice to appear. >> another question for eyes. okay. let me talk about the ways the smugglers, the human traffickers really defeat custom border patrol, for example, using miners. overloading the system. when we were down traveling with one of the sheriffs, the claim was that we don't prosecute unless at least there's 500 pounds of marijuana. talk about some of those, and the incentives or just and pediments to enforcement. >> yes, sir. thresholds are always an issue.

each jurisdiction sets their own threshold, they have limitations, personal and fun as well. you can see from one jurisdiction to another different threshold for the basically the same activity, same amount. it can get frustrating. i think that can serve as a morale challenge for the rank-and-file that is out there, risk their lives every single day and then something not prosecuted and what can appear to be an overturned threshold. that's a challenge. >> what about use of miners? what can possibly be done about that? are what do we try and do about it? >> in relation to that of unaccompanied children you are talking about that are coming in -- >> i'm talking about the miners used as drug runners spirit that has been a tactic they have used for as long as i've been in the border patrol, because they do

know what least criminally that they're not going to see a prosecution because they are minors. that's a tactic the ddo's and aso's, the drug trafficking positions and alien smuggling organizations have used for as long as i can remember. specifically for that reason, because if there are minor they're not going to receive a prosecution. that's a difficult one for us. into something, it's a tactic that we pay attention to. i would not say that it is increase. it is a common practice across the board when it comes to bringing groups in, local guides as we call them. >> it works, unfortunately. chief, you talked about morale. let's talk about some of the issues of morale. i hear about the policy and terms of where agents on the ground level, they had to call

in a supervisor if there's more than 20 that creates, then you pulled off. i don't know all the ramifications but it sounds like it creates a huge incentive not to report i got away more than 20. can you speak to that? >> yes, sir. at this point i challenge really what some of the measures and matrix we're doing. not just the impact on the agents, the perception and reality on that but really is it capturing what it should be capturing? and so i'm going use the word again, i am taking a look at that from a holistic approach but yes, i've heard some of those same concerns. >> deputy chief provost, when i had to cheat in my office, as i talk to secret service, when you have a continuing shift, my way of thinking you need for shifts and we don't have that with customs and border patrol. what is your basic viewpoint of

how we staff in the areas of custom border patrol in a continued shift? right now use three, use overtime. in industry you don't do that. why do we do that in government? >> for the most part we use three shifts. there are areas where we do that for shifts depending upon the location and what works best. the individual sector and the chief takes into consideration her operations works best, the resource and they have. as we know our men and women are also a resource we utilize. the fact we have established really the border patrol agents work a 10 hour day, helps with the coverage for the shift changes but there are areas where the remoteness of the border have impact and we run for shifts in some of those locations. so that -- >> do you see a difference in a row? do you find that works better for you? >> in my conversations with

agents i have seen both sides of the fence i guess on the. some agents would prefer for shifts and some agents would prefer three. we try to look at an aspect of what makes sense for that specifically, specific area of operations. >> i will ask you work with me, take a look at it. it's something that's well worth exploring. looking into. in your joint testimony i am concerned about this. your losses are going outpacing gains creating a downward staffing trend. we talked to a number of reasons for that, something we really want to work with you on. in my final minute i want to address fencing because again, the fencing works. a better wall works and it also help relieve the personal issues. we get past the secure fence act. i don't think we've built the type of fencing that's going to work. i'm not suggesting 1700 miles but i think we need better

fencing in more areas. i just want a quick comment on that. >> yes, sir, i agree. i can give you a quick example off the top of my head when i went to visit the san diego sector. that's a long stretch where they have primary fence and secondary pedestrian fence. not only did the work to stem the flow elsewhere, but by doing so the chief told at the point he was able to take 100 agents and put them elsewhere because it didn't require that level of employment there. go to another sector where they told me that at one point the free market across the u.s. i can all but dried up in the gary witt of fencing up, and the flow had all but stopped, now was a thriving shopping center, once again. so it works on multiple levels, not just on the flow and our ability to do her job and also has other aspects.

so yes. do we need more fencing? yes. doesn't work? yesterday do we needed everywhere? no. is the sole answer? no. it's part of an overall multilayered strategy. that was kind of tongue in cheek. defense is great but if we don't have access roads to get to the fence, it's not as good. >> i hope you will work with this committee as we move forward to identify where we did additional fencing, how it should be designed, how young the roads in between to we can literally relieve the pressure in terms of standpoint of staffing. is my ranking member here? i will continue them. i can want to go back -- keys back. i will let you go. time is short. us. thanks so much. i had a couple questions for the

record. i'm going to ask each of you not know much about leadership and will let you to follow this path and how we can encourage more women to follow the path that you have set out on. if i could get, sort of a yes or no question. one of the questions was asked about fencing or walls. sure, we need that. need to make sure his done thoughtfully and ways they can contribute. you may have mentioned, chief morgan can someone mention san diego the use of walls, take 100 border patrol officers and put them to work other places. that's more. one also would be smartness all these portable agents there taking care of these kids, it's like day care operators. that ain't smart. one of the ways to reduce the need for doing that is for us to

do our part, making sure all of the blue kids and their bigger brothers and sisters have a future in honduras, guatemala and san salvador. i think immigration reform is part of the solution including the building for workers and honduras and guatemala to. no, work for a while and go home. i think that's part of the. i think technology is part of the. the idea of sending up on piloted vehicles to be able to fly up, identify these guys. we want to bring some kind of direct fire on those, use that kind of technology, whatever. figure out what works and aboard the. what we are asking you to do is tell us what you need more of from us. at the end of the day the other side of the equation, the lesson we learn from mexico. we used to have tons of people coming up here from mexico. most of the folks who came here for years was mexico.

they are going back to mexico. they have a future. they of hope, a solid middle-class and we have been helpful in helping them make sure that happens through ways that benefit them at us as though. doesn't make any sense? if you say no matter, i'll leave. does any of that make make sense because everything you said makes sense. >> chief deputy? >> i confer with you. >> thank you both for being here. thanks for your leadership. chairman, we appreciate your leadership in the way you approach this. as the chairman mentioned early on, this is i think probably the last hearing where i will be the ranking member, just to say a much i've enjoyed working with them. i will be the ranking member on public works and look for to be very active in supporting all of my colleagues in this committee. i want to acknowledge certainly

are minority staff led by others but also want to acknowledge the hard work of the chairman and the folks that he is held or i want to mention, can't mention them all but i want to thank each of my staff and our staff and is definitely a work together, still work together as we gather today, trying to get things done before we adjourn. i particularly want to thank kristen hicks and, i want to thank gabby, good cabbie. , patrick bailey. i want to thank david who left just a week or two ago. broke, david and all the other folks on the chairman staff who have contributed to this congress and for our country. and, finally, i want to thank laura, the best third baseman

i've seen on a congressional softball team as long as i've been there, she has an arm like a rifle. as long as she is on cartoon we are in good shape. our chief clerk. they keep things running smoothly. i think we have done good work together. i look forward to doing a lot more together to thank you spin it would be nice if it were that simple names to pronounce like carper. again i do want to thank both of our witnesses for a really many years of service to this nation. it's truly appreciated. your thoughtful testimony come your thoughtful answers our questions and truly look forward to working with you over the next few years. again thank you. that being said then record will remain open for 15 days until december 15 at 5 p.m. submission of statements and questions for the record. this hearing is adjourned.

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