critics up next is michael hayden author of "playing to the edge" one of the 100 notable books of the need your times book review. >> host: first of all, a very fine book. starting off with some interesting chapters growing up in the same neighborhood for many years what it's like to have a family i thought you might want to say a word before using the words like matted data --

metadata. what about you? into put one together it all began on a dark and stormy night but in 2007 after the director of the cia. so i use that to pay that off of my experience. i and mention i was an american is airforce. with the wonderful bride cultural education that is values based from a catholic high school so i as of

blue-collar town with a white-collar economy. >> guy'' and article and was traveling to the united states that was causing an incline. and he characterized the city masterfully. so that is why i brought to the job that the cia pdf. >> host: i want to go to a subject that we deal with more than once with

intelligence in recent years and it used to be the case of letters of long and -- and with that male watch be planned we want to keep track and the postscript and the date. and then if they would seek james woolsey getting a lot of mail from of mafia figures. [laughter] it strikes me to do early in the book. and with respect to edward

snowden and thinking in view word keeping track whether letter or the e-mail that is the message people got very scared and worried can you clear up what is going on? >> uh public was stampeded. >> and with that responsibility and we should have been far more accurate to explain a we are doing with that essential element that you describe in from

electronic communications that is say law-enforcement tradition that the supreme court decided that who you called also was the outside of the envelope the court held just like the outside of the envelope with no expectations and not to be constitutionally protected the. >> menu gathered all of that data congress had access to metadata with intelligence but it was not constitutionally limited and after 9/11 the commander in

chief of decided that to the degree to stop the commander in chief that was inherent. and don to locations that is a given. so be gathered the data. to go along with it. to gather the data we don't try to create those relationships that could be a common practice. and then to have knowledge

of wonder that phone has ever called the united states. in no i have completed my a explanation of the metadata program. in the with the political spectrum and then to have that ability and then to push the authorities to that possibility with an angry

reaction. >> i am on a panel from my successor at nsa and and talk about metadata. that is all true. >> nobody believes me when i said on amazon and the u.s. government does. and they know better even after somebody tries to

explain that to them. and they can have that context of the call. and that is a violation of the of lot. so going to another simple and easy going subject to have many discussions about this to make this largely clear and with those that have water boarding as part of their training. >> and as a former navy seal also the case factoring that

pique interest to have himself water boarded. but that is not simple and clear. i know anything else called torture by anybody that is done by ed journalist as part of navy seal training. there has to be something different about water boarding that for some purposes that you put sleep deprivation into is a potential payoff to limit some days the ability you

think water boarding and day same white? >> but the truth is i go into depth that was years before but to create a historical record. and i do like that dysfunction but not under any circumstances. but then you have this body in the middle so as svp did in the book water boarding

is ethical and legal and appropriate if you understand the circumstances and even once in that you digest i was part of the association taking it off the table. >> i had a better knowledge of the prep profile. but that was known judgment and to i think god never had to make that decision.

that somebody else stepped up to make that tough call. >> what about call leachate mohammad? said about whether or not he was the only person whether or not that produces information? what is your view? >> 55 but hundreds if not thousands.

so was not water boarding that made them talk but at the end of the day having said that to get him before and after this was totally define and. -- define and. of the patriotic democrat so including this began that it does not work that way.

and i cannot imagine why did not revise from those 100 + detainee's. but now with the easing of what you find them hellfire. with uh pakistan importer -- pakistan me border that is beautiful technologically more than has ever been before and we have killed a lot of people but we cannot

get information from them if we cannot sometimes used enhanced interrogation. but on the side of the spectrum. then they can get any information. >> we have made it so difficult and politically dangerous that they just fall to the kill option. then we have your successor

and then if you have the chance said just look at the numbers. it is more people than what have been captured. because we pretend uh criminal rule for what we were supposed to do. >> that is what i try to emphasize. and with that chemical justice system and with those structures with the

criminal justice system so if we choose that we can operate with any particular operation. >> one more easily characterized with the term weapons of mass destruction i m curious about why we got into that habit of talking about wmd but each independently because one produces biological in a different way to have an huge volumes and in the back

seat of the of volkswagen. and people get confused but the government never tried. >> but that didn't work with today's society. and that is the cost of doing business. but there is a benefit to that to the american people precisely because we always

said nuclear dispersal in order of probability. in the american people are pretty smart. >> one thing that we put in a book it is very important that in reaching uranium which is what you need for some medical it is 90%, it

is a geometric progression. i think there is a lot of misunderstanding about people being relaxed with 20% in rich debate going back. but that is another subject and to be clearly explained to be comfortable with the joint comprehension plan of action but if we have the better idea either.

>> event one last on the progression. and if everything they want to do then maybe not. but with the industrial strength policy. from the weapons you point. >> with the set of questions what is your favorite spy

novel? if they have anything to do if there is something that has to do with reality and it is often hard to find. is called the lives of others. but as far as i am concerned but that is really what happens and and then just

like jack bauer. [laughter] but i want to talk about that but the best is the first article this this from the cia website. >> and that is no relationship but a

remarkable officer but he was killed when the embassy was blown up. but there really does give you a feel. >> but then talk about a homeland. every betty in the program but of background obsession and focus there are many

places in their better not factually correct. they say for example, between enhanced interrogation. so with the alleged cia interrogation with that said there is a couple dozen people it wasn't the individual effort but typically i will tell you it

was the band the sisters working for the agency. >> and in terms of literature, let me ask you you, as we know, this cia group had of a military organization. full-time employees or the cia officers but the fbi agents were informants put there by all tied up.

-- outside at. >> that is insider code. but what about the issue of whether of what we do indeed intelligence business characterized by something very different of the of military special forces? but they don't lose track of their reality.

virtually that will never happen in. but anyway clandestine service officers serve their country they will spy and collect information i have had difficulty getting people to depart from political correctness but with what we really do in the intelligence service. with the clandestine answer rests and that is one reason why from time to time because after having banned part that some of us know

what it might be like. so often about the misapplication of the ferry to do something they are not supposed to do. sa in the of middle of the book. and then operating outside the law and then they said they do not operate and outside the law not in america but i do give several anecdotes.

the more responsibility nick could have been difficult. for a graduation. and talking to the graduates with this moral responsibility. the people agreed to cooperate with you. you may be the only face of america. never forget your responsibility. >> that is taken as you are operating we cannot stand

dishonesty. it is a demanding profession >> so let's turn to iran. you said it was about 80% focus at one point. >> i have actually asked the question for those that were in chicago but 80 percent mr. president. >> there is that then using those three things.

>> so what your piraeus? -- priorities quick. >> counterterrorism, rest of the of world. but that comes third because they were so demanding and to distinguish itself to be number one. and by the great deal but it

was important for people to understand what happened with respect to the issue whether or not iran was over was not in the process of reacting to our iraq or the process to buildup itself to dominate. said don hussain was clearly worried and one moved suggest to the interrogation of them with an fbi agent indicated in fact, can no

longer add for a period of time weapons of mass destruction but it did everything he could to convince the world he did for the iranians. for. >> so there is so much. terrorism then iran. although technically number two. but president bush so how much? and then the other questions and how do they make

decisions? because this is incredible society and president bush was a little bit impatient. certainly have a great deal of affection for him but i get it. we have tens of thousands of americans going back and forth. why don't you know, more? it was just uh tough nut to crack. mini dock understand how iran makes decisions with their policy. >> with the new york city police department, you had a fascinating relationship

with them for most americans tend to think of the caa and yes they have offices and the united states to go to myanmar and then they are glad to come back if they went with somebody that works here. but it is everything overseas. so how did the ncaa get together with the police department. >> but we have decided to

protect our government. law-enforcement over here and intelligence over here. that was right down between foreign and domestic and law-enforcement that out of a responsibility and used to be the domestic intelligence service. but in addition this is a truly american city that

one-third are born in the united states. >> that is from the 19th century. the largest police force in america more than twice the size if you can imagine. >> it had the intelligence program of the responsibilities to try to support the relationship with the n.y.p.d.. but this is different. with a special target and a

special relationship with the n.y.p.d.. at there 17 known plots. >> we all lot -- zero of lot to. but i want to ask you about the cases of protecting the people. we caught on my watch but several members were project yearly of set because nobody was fired over it. i tried to explain the people that would have been fired have already retired

and i cannot fire them i could not get that across. you have issues before you became director and from the beginnings some did not make it. but the obama and. >> pet you should get credit how you handled that. >> thank you for saying that. because when it was happening in was an easy decision. >> as some people would not want. >> because a moral dilemma, the moral pressure

but to get to the point but if they were not suspicious and i mustapha looked at it through the best event but but this is not natural to back-and-forth. but that part because of debt have been more quickly. but to focus and make a

decision and with that accountability bureau but absolutely not. the director is responsible for the overall health and success of the emission. that the one thing bed then but if i have a false positive bad things could happen.

if they did but that wouldn't happen to me. one so how could i possibly do that? [laughter] but i dunno did that accountability in the book so if you walk into the concourse one.

>> but this is what is going on in the world. so we will do nine or 10. >> with the department of commerce.

>> but how that appropriations committee we never would have gotten that . he would lose money around here notreaking any laws with the appropriations subcommittee and the accommodation director flexibility together with the real flexibility that he had made it possible for us to sit there to move $500,000 from one account then back to another we talk about big money we had to do

a write. he was just terrific and my example. >> i have not thought about this deeply but not to be self-serving to the invitation but as national security visor i could have a straightforward conversation i would say see this? this is mine. i make the decision but in essence i uneven know that i was invited to be a sounding board. and he was forever stable.

i was invited to beyond the press -- meet the press. he says meat to the prospects he said good luck. no political guidance just good luck. so he had that confidence in the agency through me. and guy was selected to be director when i get that far call he said the president wants to talk to you tomorrow night.

okay. by got a pretty good understanding of what it was . i walked out to my other office and said find steve. after agency incident they tracked him down in london and he said harry doing plaques when you consider to be the deputy director of cia? he said that depends on who was the director i said i am not at liberty to discuss that and i am making the call. [laughter] he said i will get back to you then to hours later he said okay i am happy to come back.

we had a wonderful mission ship. in that meeting went very often to say that i was the director. and then there was another time with some covert action decision and steve was there . to everything to boys are western pennlvania could make that decision? [laughter] >> we were at the same law firm for a time we negotiated settlements together and while we were

negotiating guess you got to be the good cop and bad cop? [laughter] >> you had something happen when you first went to the agency. before 42 mead went down. when you first went to nsa. and it was obviously an embracing experience that bloomed on and expanding your mind. so what concerns about the future of the electronic infrastructure and are they salient? it does not come first chronological it is the

first chapter of the book. because such a powerful experience. and then i get a phone call on. but what parts of the system is down? >> all of it. we were still collecting data but we could not move the process or analyze we have more than 72 hours that means america was pretty much not collecting intelligence over half of the week and that is a big deal. and that is for the events coming at you. we better get in gear.

i have been director 10 months and then and then that is more dangerous than standing still. >> with those technological lessons and the psychic lessons and actually be without source to a private contractor and trained by the american federal budgeting to get somewhere

close to the 21st in century. >> i have been concerned of the vulnerability of the electric grid to cyberorder the electromagnetic pulse a number of things to take down the operation electronics and the grid that is most dramatically the intelligence services. >> added is chronological. and they think that we are done here. with no aggregation.

i started to write and it negative out of me of what you are describing. and then to hash that out with to say this is a detailed history better for those of us to get tuesday it national press operation but fundamentally and bacon that in about a decade. that is the speed of light

that but did don't think that is quite accurate. so we do get that accusation. that is domain a air or land your space. . .

the analysts and the faculty and university, the people who make things operate, the support system essentially, your fellow steelers fans, and the science and technology people. >> it is one of the parts of the book i really enjoyed writing. i think it's espionage family life and bureaucracy. i bring all different aspects into it, and one of them is the cia agency culture. you drive along 123 and you look

through the fence line and you think cia is a singular noun. it's never a singular noun. on a good day it's a collective noun. most days it's plural and you have each of these four elemental directors. not in the book, its it's post writing the book, but john is trying to cut through those four cylinders. >> that's a subject for another day. >> exactly. anyway multiple cultures and you have to learn to deal with each. >> i loved your final quote in one chapter and i'm going to closed with that because it's a nice guide to the way you operate and people in senior positions in government. he said, you're the only

superpower in the room, but don't act like it. >> that's right. that was my guidance. >> thanks a lot. >> thank you. >> i am pamela paul editor of the new york times book review and host of inside the new york book review our weekly podcast and you are watching c-span to book tv. you have been listening to michael hayden. his book playing to the edges one of our 100 notable books of the year. up next, carol anderson talks about her book, white rage. also, one of our 100 notable books of the year. anderson is anderson is a professor of african-american studies at emory university, and this is one of those books that many people who didn't read it when it first came out are turning to now. it's one of the books that

people are looking to explain the results of the 2016 presidential election, to get an understanding of some of the dynamics of the trump elections. this book really takes a long view. it's 150 years of looking at the sources of racism. i think a lot of people, after ferguson, and after many of the unfortunate incidents of the past year asked themselves why are black so angry and she is really saying, let's look at why whites are so angry. let's look at white rage and its origins. she goes back to reconstruction. it's not an argument book, it's really an exploration and an accounting of the long history of white racism against african-americans in this country. up now carol anderson, author of