and, of course, extrapolated and it got worse as all these armies gathered together a more people died from disease than it did d from battle in the civil war. >> it was more double the diver fighting for a cause than of cholera sitting at home. >> exactly.at even if you live to 90. >> that makes sense. i don't see any other questions and ideas. before asked the last question i would like to present our guests with the national press club mug.t >> thank you. [applause] >> i would also like to remind our audience the book and author national press club journalism author fare is friday november 18. market on your calendars. it's always one of our favorite events and we will have a chuck raasch sign books at that event there as well. .. s with uh take away don't give away everything but i read this over the course of the week

but what do i get? >> induce a sense of the supreme so sacrifice in a very precarious position. we really could have won in 22 countries that that momentum was more than blind devotion it was adjusted quest for heroism or mythology but there was a belief it was complected some thought they were fighting for the union some thought they were fighting to free of the slaves some thought both but there was that kind current belief that it was different from many different perspectives it was this supreme selflessness for a cause greater than themselves that really struck me in almost all the research i did

host: the book is imperfect union. thank you for being here guest: thank you. >> book tv is on twitter and facebook and we want to hear from you. tweet us, twitter.com. /book tv or post comments on our facebook page, facebook.com. /book tv. >> this is book tv on c-span2, television for serious reader's. hears primetime lineup. tonight starting at 7:00 p.m. eastern pulitzer prize-winning journalist confronts her family history in in the darkroom. 7:45 p.m., candace villard discusses winston churchill's exploits in south africa 8:30 p.m., 300 years of immigration through new york city.

on book tv afterward program at 10:00 p.m. eastern the "wall street journal" joe and loveland profiles women who left successfully climbed the corporate ladder and we wrap up our saturday primetime lineup at 11:00 p.m. with cnn political contributors looking back at the 2016 presidential race tonight on c-span2 book tv. host: joining us here on our book tv set is author steven johnson. before we get into your most recent book, you are listing pretty intently to a james glick had to say. guest: james is one of my favorite authors. i read his book, chaos, in college and it really started me thinking that i could potentially be a science writer because i had not been interested in science at all, so is one of my idols.

if he was still talking i would say let's go back and listen to him. host: your most recent book isto called "wonderland". what were you trying to explore in this book? guest: "wonderland" is a history that thinks human beings have done for the fun of it, but the light in it, so for the feeling of play or amusement. it came out of, the book "how we got to now" in the pbs series i did a couple years ago which was a history of innovation and things in the modern world we take for granted and trying to tell the 500 year or thousand year history behind these things andeh so that was a really great format to work in. i love that kind of historical work with a lot of interesting stories in them and you could write that book a thousand times over because there are so many things you could write about, but i wanted this book to have an actual arguments about history, kind of a

theory of how change happens in society and the argument of "wonderland" is that that history of things we do for fun, for delights actually ends up triggering much more s serious and momentous changes in science and technology or politics, so things that start as kind of frivolous amusements-- ami incidence changes the world. host: where did the concept come from? guest: it's one of these books where i have been ricci-- researching for 20 years in some way and it opens up after the introduction about the history of fashion and shopping and i had heard when i was in grad school more than 20 years ago, well more than 20 years ago that i studied the 19th century metropolitan novel and as i was reading dickens and there is incredible story about the first apartment source and may come to

paris, really the first great immense spectacular shopping wonderland, really. this extraordinary thing happens where all of these well to do women who don't need to do this for economic reasons come to the d store and start stealing from the store. it's a true story. it's a way valve kleptomania among the wealthy women of paris in these new grand apartment stores and no one can figure it out because these women can pay for the goods, but for some reason the store environment is causing them to steal and so this provokes a huge moral panic andean discussion and becomes known as the department store disease and eventually a whole series of the mind develops studying these women which is its appears that new configurations of modern life, new spaces, new commercial environments is actually messing with people's brain and beginning of a line of walkie-- talking about

the brain when we think how video graves affect the brain and so on. i had stories like that that have been accumulating for thechch last 20 years and that once i started the research i could put it all together. >> you called it our endless quest for delights. guest: yacht. guest: if you think about what you learned in school about the forces that drive history, you would think there is a quest for power and this tribalism or nationalism, religious belief, survival, money, those are the big forces that drive history, that there is this other side of being human, which is we like to play and have fun. we like to be surprised and delighted by new experiences and so i think it's kind of a lovely side of ourof history at it too turns out to be also fun

stories that is fun to read. host: if you have read steven johnson in the past you know what kind of books he writes. 's most recent out is: "wonderland: how play made the modern world"numbers so we will put up the phone number so you canda participate today. dialing and we will get to your calls quickly. steven johnson is a best-selling author and he referenced his book, "how we got to now". there's also "the ghost map" everything that is good for you" as well. you talked about our endless quest for delights as it changed or led to exploration in stock markets and computers and probability -based insurance policies.

[laughter] host: explained that one. guest: i mean, actually there are two ways in which the modern insurance business end of the first there was a crazy figure from about 500 years ago, this italian mathematician and chronic gambler who had basically spent his whole life doing dice games and gambling, but he was a math genius on the side and near the end of his life he figured out, he kind of figure out a way to understand mathematically the likelihood of the various games of chance outcomes like in the game of dice, but what is the likelihood you would roll 36 is in a role-- row or 12 and no one had actually done the math. so, he wrote to this book that was both kind of a cheat sheet for how to win at dice and also

very advanced math that became the basis for probability theory and of that theory got defined and modified over the years and that became then the basis of a whole host of elements for the modern world. the insurance of business without probability theory cannot do anything. the other side of it that connects to the books seem to set the first modern insurancee firm, which was lloyd's of london took place in a coffee house and i have a whole other chapter about coffeehouse culture and tavern's gold-- culture these spaces designed for leisure, hanging out and drinking coffee or beer and lloyd's of london was originally a coffeehouse, so both dice games and coffee houses came together to form the modern insurance business. host: public spaces, how did we get to public spaces? guest: in a way that tavern is the beginning of this. the world is now filled with just look around

you and think how many spaces are engineered typically for you to have fun in some fashion, all around the world from movie theaters to parks to, you know, bars and coffee houses and shopping malls i'm in the world is filled with in o these, most of which did not exist 300 years ago much less a thousand years ago and one of the first spaces to do that was the tavern. a space that was not work, was not home and was not nature, but a space where you could go and it was kind of semi private, semi public and it was designed to pass a few hours and have a good time and that alone is kind of nice. bars and taverns have placed a really momentous role in the history of politics and history of this country. you cannot tell the history of the american revolution without taverns. every step of the way they were this kind of key information nose in the network of kind ofth

anti- english sentiment during that period.ti it's possible we would have had a american revolution had bars and taverns not been around, but it would've required a different path, a different set of meeting places, so it's a big part of our history. host: what we do with the information you have shared with us and "wonderland"? guest: i think it's a reminder of how creative the playful state of mind is. when we are being amused and delighted by something into seems to lead to more and more innovation. people get into that state they are like that's fun i'm a what if we added this or changed this and there is something about that that's helpful and i think as alluded to with it dice game story there's a chapter about the history of games and this seems like games and the concept of education and this is an interesting field.

when you watch kids playing games whether their video games, board games or educational games they concentratehe the mind. i play these kind of simulation games with my kids who play them when they were seven or eight and they would be building an entire like geopolitical empire in the game and learning about legal systems and money and taxation rates when they are seven. gi it's not to say that they get it, it's just the nature of the game and if i sat them down and tried to teach them about tax reform and industrial development when they are seven they would not pay attention, but the game structure pulls you in a makes you want to learn in spite of yourself. host: let's hear from our callers, stephen johnson. let's begin with weighing in a san diego. caller: i wonder if mr. johnson has read. [inaudible]

caller: the only translation i have been able to find and what he thinks about the irony of what the iron-- author insists the proposition that should be in the culture. take it away, please. guest: yeah, it's a fascinating book. was written it was written right at the beginning of world war ii. in fact, he eventually died in world war ii. you have this kind of extraordinary thing kinds of anthropologist sociologist writing this ethic book about the to centrality of play, the human species as the nazis are marching across europe. kind of tragedy in the middle of of a really powerful book. i quoted actually at thehe end of the big-- at the beginning of the final chapter and his approach is the basic idea that play essential to human

culture is obviously we share that.they approac he approaches it a bit more abstract and kind of philosophical where if you get a chance to see "wonderland" it's filled with very specific examples of how this appetite for play actually came to pass and all of the kind of crazy stories of people trying to amuse themselves and the approaches of the two book of philosophically are very much aligned in terms of practice are a bit different to. host: david in rochester, new york. caller: thank you. i am from rochester, new york, and i wonder if you know here in rochester we have it the strong museum of a play and it's a history of all play items throughout history, all different kinds of things and if a book tv ever comes to rochester, new york, you could visit and i wonder if you ever heard of it. guest: i have heard of it, but i

have not been. look, i'm on book tour i need to do an event there and, i mean, this is the thing, how do we think about this role of these objects, physical objects of play? where do they go in the way we think about history cracks do we think about them out-- just kind of something at the margins? or do we recognize that play space in these objects that we have made have been, you know, for thousands of years an important part of the march of progress and the advance of civilization. it's good we have some museums out there celebrating this and everyone should go to rochester, new york. host: stephen johnson, was chess a technological innovation?echnl guest: exceptional innovation that then lead to technological innovations because this chess

was central to the early days of computing. i mean, the first essays written about the rigorous way about the idea of artificial intelligence were all kind of anchored in this question of could you teach a computer to playut chess.o host: you are saying you can teach it. guest: it would be possible. in a way he was a bit too pessimistic because now computers are better than humans that playing chess, but that took a long time. great example of the power of the play. all along in the history of artificial intelligence games out than the way in which we both major and trade these new machines. it's initially started with checkers, a simpler gate. then it turned out they got pretty good it checkers and then we brought in chess and backgammon, but look at watson, ibm's supercomputer which is arguably one of the most intelligent forms of artificial computation

out there. how did ey train watson? they trained it by having into play jeopardy and eventually when, so they were like we need to figure a way to train this machine and i think a game show would be the perfect way to do it to. the connection between gaming and digital technology is a rich one. host: we were looking at iphones of that earlier. do you use siri? guest: i do a bit. i was talking to someone at the other day about someone should remake 2001 a 2001 a space odyssey with siri as how, so like open the doors siri and series like i'm sorry, dave, i did not understand what you said. here are three sites. i found this on the web.s host: how advanced is a siri? she is kind of a play toy and a sense a? guest: we are just at the beginning. there is a chapter in the book on illusions

about how much time we have spent tricking our eyes into perceiving things that are not their starting with perspective in painting going through these kind of magic lantern shows and cinema and one of the arguments i made in that chapter is there is something about just as with optical illusions, you know it's a snooty image, but you still seeee that 3d square and you cannot tell your brain otherwise.wired. your brain has to make that mistake because that's just the way our brains are wired. something similar with moving pictures and sounds, once you get more than 12 frames peret second and they close off of a human being talking with audio you just feel like you know that person.rs you feel like you have some kind of emotionalha connection to that person that's why we have celebrity culture at an age of tv and movies and stuff like that. i think what we will experience pretty soon is a similar kind of

emotional illusion where we had these virtual systems like siri only that assistance actually know it's a bit and canning kid-- engage engage in real conversation. they change over time and adapt to what we say and so after you have been with his assistant for a year they will have a unique personality similar to you and i guarantee you people will develop very intense emotional connections to these devices just like the movie, her, that-- spike jones is movie. it may start with voice because voice is easier to do than facial expressions, so we may have these very complicated in the next five years, maybe, relationships with completely artificial characters that live in our devices. host: kimberly in baldwin, new york. hello, kimberly. caller: i was called to see if perhaps his book touches at alle on the philosophy of aesthetic

realism in the work of eli siegel because just based onyoui your description of your work, which i look forward to reading, they are more so focused with our rather than play, but you seem to have some similar things going on. guest: no, it doesn't. what's really interesting question actually in the book of how i was going to handle art. the because there is a chapter on the music and there is a chapter on illusions, which gets into cinema and animation in that history of that. buds, other than that ir try to steer away from art that was particularly nov representational, for instance the literary novel which i spent a lot of time reading because i went to grad school and english literature and integrate

fashion of mine. your fork that is trying to in a sense speak toat our higher faculties in a way that it's trying to address the bigng sweeping questions about. what it means to be human or the nature of reality because those did t seem playful enough. i think we already accept the idea that serious r, serious narrative fiction is an important part of our cultural history, so i did not feel the need for that since others have already made it more eloquently than i could. i was trying to make a case for the lower form i and i included music because there is this mystery about music which is we have no idea what it's good for. if you think about how much music moves as an our passion for music and yet it seems to have no functional value at all and it's unclear why these waveforms flooding in the air through our ears should produce these strong feelings, so that was an opening to allow me to write about music in this

book, but i didn't cover aesthetic realism and things like that in this one, but maybe in another one. host: alber in houston, texas. hello, albert. host: albert, are you with us? i think we lost alberta, so let's move on to royal oak, michigan. you are on with author stephen johnson. caller: hello. how are you guys? host: we are good. please go ahead with your question or comment.t. caller: okay. my question is on technology and i just want to know if like how can we make social media better for the next generation and just making it safer for like children and kids, you know, especially nowadays a. host: before we hear from

stephen johnson, what would you like to see changed?anged. caller: i would like to see like just social media just working faster, you know, for the use and like so-- blocking out some of the negative ads and things. host: what kind of technology do you use? caller: i use my ipad and my cell phone. host: thank you, sir. guest: it's a really important question and i have written about this, lesson wonderland, but in some of the other books and when you move to social media you basically move from a system where you have a bunch of gatekeepers, editors, folks who are controlling the flow of information who are decided what

is true and what's not, what's appropriate what's not, what's newsworthy and what's not and we shifted to this distributed system where everyone on the network is generating user sharing ideas and crated anri editorial filter and deciding whether this is relevant or not and i think this has worked pretty well for a while, but i think we have seen in the last few weeks some significant cracks beginning to appear and so my concern really right now is with something like facebook, which is facebook is the size of an entire media now. it's almost as big as the web itself and yet that medium, which has a huge impact over what we read, what we consume and feel about politics, will we feel that what our children experience, we don't really have any control over how that medium works the way we do technically over the web.

the web is an open from that people can modify and push in different directions. facebook is a platform owned by a private company and yet it's the size of the internet or the web in many ways, so when we went to change a something to make say for instance something like facebook less vulnerable to fake news as the topic has been on the tips of everyone's tongue the last week orto two, we have to go and ask facebook to change it. it's not an open standard we could change, so that is something we will have to wrestle with over the next few years. host: we have a president-elect who likes his twitter account. guest: it is fascinating. i have been a long-time user of twitter and i think there is an argument that's without twitter he would not have one. he might not have beendn able to-- i think think you might not have one the public and-- republican race because it just gave him this mouthpiece for $0,

basically. host: so, why do that-- why does he need a filter, the media? guest: i think in many ways he has decided he doesn't and what happens without twitter account in the white house will be fascinating. appear when his people like to chemical-- is spun away from him the so he could not treat any more, but they give it back to him and apparently he will keep tweeting in the oval office with will put us in a whole new world. host: he will get the potus account.ecial ac next call for stephen johnson. host: do you think they had any idea? guest: now. they were very interested in communications and one of the things i wrote about in "the invention of air", in adams jeffersons letter, the famous correspondence between us to, and they had fallen out as most

people probably know they had not spoke for many years and at the end of their life they started this epic correspondence of the way they begin the conversation for the first few later-- letters is like herding out about how fast theow fas letters were getting to each other which was state-of-the-art at the time and they were like your letter only got here from six days from monticello. you have very high bandwidth.h.nd [laughter]they wou guest: they would have been shocked, but then they would have quickly figured it out. host: david you are on with stephen johnson and his newest book is called "wonderland". caller: good afternoon. my grandfather started a toy company in 1920 and he had a philosophy that he wrote a lot about, which was bringing reality into the land of make-believe and if he were alive-- i never knew him-- i would have argued we need to keep

play and reality separate. so, he believed that by giving children actual miniature real things, his work is in the smithsonian, he went to a lot of trouble to make t his toys is so real that he said children instead of playing with a fantasy object would now be playing with a real object and therefore, t become more realistic and go on to lead corporations into practical things things. i would have argued with him that play should be open ended and not directed and making children more pragmatic. i think play should be open ended. host: david, i think we got the point. guest: that's a interesting family history.

the blurring of the lines between reality and kind of playspace is interesting and just inne the history there is a big kind of divide between games that are very kind of strictly limited and the rules are really defines i mean i remember when my kids were young and i was plain candyland with them and finally i wasyo like you know it's crazy about this game is there is no choice in this game. you literally cannot make a decision. you pick a card and you have to move your piece to matter what it says nothing ultimate kind of constrained game and i'm like this is hurting the kids of america's of brain.th they have no free will and then you go to otherer extremes with like dungeons and dragons where you invent the whole world and it's e about changing the rules and i think developmentally there are different games at different times, but the other question you raise is the blurring of the boundaries between the real world and the play world and that is

something we will see and more f more and more of an we saw the first grade kind of explosion of it this summer with pokémon go. here you have a game that is on some levels very frivolous and not that important in any functional way, but it brought all these people out into the world exploring and looking for these imaginary japanese creatures. my kids were just begging to go for a walk for the first time in their lives. they wanted to go outside because their screens were going to capture things outside, but they were still going for walks andso getting exercise and this is one of the big arguments of "wonderland" when we look at what people doeo for fun and look at people plane is often a predictor of more serious changes coming to society. there's a line in the book like wherever-- you find the future where people are having the most fun and i think we will look back in 10

years or so when we are all pocket around with augmented reality goggles with virtual information superimposed over the real world and we will say this started s with pokémon go in kids running around chasing imaginary japanese creatures, but now, we do it as part oflife ordinary life. it's began in a game. host: virtual reality is kind of taken off this year. guest: yeah, yeah, couple major devices have come out and i wrote a piece for the times magazine, actually, adapting some of the material and the illusion capture thinking if we went back and looked at these early 19th century illusion shows like there was this kind of haunted house show and the 360-degree painting called the panorama and hundreds of other different kinds of shows and i think those shows are a preview of coming attractions that will come to us in virtual reality

and what those shows had is interesting. they went about stories and they weren't really about characters. you didn't go to them to follow a part or feel empathy for a character. they were about being thrown into a space and emerging yourself and kind of a century overload of that space and being frightened or amazed or you are transported somewhere, but they were not narratives and i think when people look at virtual reality they are trying to figure out how to we translate videogames to this newhi form or movies and i think actually going back and looking as i tried to do in wonderland at the earlier forms, it might be instructive like i think for example what i use in the pieces if that james cameron were making titanic for vr the whole storyline of the rogue had some dashing stowaway, that would be a waste of time. you would just want to be on the ship and run around like jump on the edge and try to survive.

you wouldn't care so much about the characters. it would be about thebout environment and i think that's what we will learn with vr, but. looking back at these older forms of play i think is very illustrative. host: bill in minneapolis. go ahead, bill. caller: i have a background in mathematics and have also taught introductory mathematics to adults and i have becomefirst ol convinced first of all that the mathematical talents requires in part a spirit of play and playing with conceptual worlds and manipulating them and children have all kinds-- with they have not been poisoned by dolts they have a willingness to play with mad amount-- mathematical ideas when their first introduced so they play with numbers. i would be interested in your comments on this relationship between mathematics and plate and how to teach it and the rest of that. thank you.

goodbye. guest: great observation. there's a story in the book about really the first wearable computer kind of big computer small enough you could put it on your body was developed by two guys and one of whom was caught shannon, this genius mathematician and early advocate for computers and they built this device to win at roulette to beat the house at roulette in the vegas. they figured out this kind of crazy way of calculating when the ball drops exactly howow long before it started to settle and you could make predictions based on that if you had an accurate sensor and a little computer on you and they didn't actually succes and it was so far from being conceivable because this was in the late 50s when most computers were the size of a room, much less one you could fit in your pocket, so it it wasn't against the rules of the house. so, they'd did it, but

shannon and i talk about this in the book, he was this incredibly playful guy, great mathematician and almost kind of philosopher in a way and if you went to his house he had this kind of toy room and he would love to juggle and he would get on his unicycle and juggle and talk about mathematical theories. i think the other thing is true, children come into the world wired to play and the other thing they come in the world wired to do when they get into this play state is to invent new rules, i mean, this is the beautiful things about young kids. it's not like we are going to play this game according to this rule there like what will the rules be this time and that kind of thinking is a very high-level form of pride mission. let's design this assistant and figure out what the rules should be and predict how the rules will affect our behavior and whether it will be fun or challenging and less of

modify the as we go as we get feedback from the game and learn whether that worked well or whether that made it to borate or too easy for one side or the other. that's almost like the scientific method, build the hypothesis about something and tested and modify it based on feedback. that's another way in which i think play in an educational concept is important. host: last call for stephen johnson comes from now in austin, texas. hello. host: about in austin, texas. and we're going to try sacramento. kansas. third time's a charm. caller: hello. host: we are listening. caller: preface my question my wife and i worked for many years for fedex, which most people

think as a transportation coming, but in reality whenin people talk to us we are really not-- we're management information company. we found that with real-time information if you know where things th are at all times, things will work the right way and you deliver the kind of service people need. that's preface to when you were talking about different platforms that people rely on that used it to be traditionalu ou media, but people have trusted them less and less and so they have gone to platforms like facebook, which i have,hi but i don't use. i wonder, this is for my wife and myself, most of our information we get from c-span, not to tell you guys, but i know if i watches c-span i will get accurate information from the people who are the source of what i'm trying to find out, so i'm wondering how much of that stuff gets h together? guest: first off, i agree with your endorsement of c-span.

i think having yeah, i hope there is this-- c-span, book tv and also the broader purview of c-span, this idea that new technologies we will give you direct access to what's going on, say what's going on in congress for instance would leave to more democratic participation. without it is this layer of social media guide up around all that and you have almost less direct kind of access to your leaders, you know, to speeches given or debated on the house for and more to people talking about it on social media, whichitso makes it more personable and builds it into your, but also creates the possibility for distortion and we probably need to get that balanced a littlean bit more balanced. host: the book is called "wonderland: how play made the modern world" and as you could

see it's very interesting and colorful busy color. steven johnson is the author. thank you for being with us on book tv. guest: thanks for being back. >> topknot fiction books and authors every week and. book tv, television for serious readers. >> we have three days of book tv for you on this new year's weekend. our holiday schedule features in depth live on c-span2. this month authors weigh in on the presidency of barack obama in our weekly afterwards program the "wall street journal" joanne profiles women who successfully climb the corporate ladder and also this weekend cnn political contributors but back at the 2016 presidential race. sports illustrated reports on the working-class town through the length of high school football and we look at the latter years of first lady eleanor roosevelt and tyler discusses 400

years of immigration through new york city and at some of the program she will see a book tv this weekend. for complete television schedule but bertie.org. book tv, 72 hours of nonfiction books and authors. television for serious readers. >> buckley also had the spokespeople of the very radical social movements going on through the 60s and 70s, quite notably he had black power folks on the show and i'm not sure everyone can see, but we have him wearing this and yet to security guards behind him who never move throughout the whole thing and they are unarmed, but probably they usually are armed and there was negotiation with the producer to have no guns on the show. buckley never even acknowledges they are

there. what's radical and part about this is the appearance of black power of the show is that the coverage of black power elsewhere was mostly sensationalist soundbites in this kind of thing and nixon had actually conveyed to the networks in the early 70s that they really should not cover black power anymore and really just ignore it. he also encourage them not to cover vietnam as well and they did not take that advice. but, they did minimize the coverage of black power and so if you wanted to learn about black power-- [inaudible] >> you could hear the ideas expressed unedited on the show and that was really remarkable. he also had-- here's eldridge cleaver on the show, also. he also covered the women's liberation movement on the program. he had betty on early on

and she was not a very good speaker and she was not invited back for 18 years and she was the voice of the liberal feminism. much better episode was with jermaine greer who had just published the female eunuch and was much more radical. buckley really enjoyed talking to her. going to show you a clip from the early 70s. >> appear sometimes like a contradiction in my book. are you to make he and she words equal and estimation or argue to screen out she as forever incapable of equaling he and estimation grammatically correct grammatically? >> you could be antifeminist. >> but known by a hierarchy. wind you refer to early man it means you to early humans. >> what it means is that

the real attitude is going to be concealed by a form of primitive censorship where the actual situation might change. i think it's a sort of hypocrisy. >> in other words you think that answers is preposterous to make well, i think it's such a trivial aspect of a real struggle edits being given so much attention and i think it's part of a general movement to co-opt a struggle into existence, really and turn it into something-- >> okay, so it's a really interesting moment because actually they sort of agree about the nonsense anyway liberal feminism was to change language and they both agreed that ms. is a bad idea and buckley thinks that it's not euphonious and so jarring. she says well it doesn't

change the structural relationship of marriage you can call yourself ms., but you are still in a picture i call concept that he thought she was lunatic is rise taking on the family and so on and so forth, but they agreed about this one issue in language and after he was on the show he wrote her a thank you note as he always did and he said you are good. he really enjoyed it and unfortunately she did not want to come back on the show, but it was a terrific show. she had resoundingly won the debate about women's liberation by a vote of the cambridge's students. >> you to watch this and other programs online a book tv.org. >> hello, everyone. i think we are about to get started.