moreno, professor of constitutional history at hillsdale college and the author of this book, "the bureaucrat kings: the origins and underpinnings of america's bureaucratic state". professor paul moreno, on page one of your book you write the united states is ruled by an establishment nowhere mentioned in the constitution. >> this is the fourth branch of government which in a way is a combination of the of the three branches, that is the heart of the constitutional problem. the original constitution was meant to be founded on the separation of powers, the most important structural feature of the constitution. in the 20th century we developed an administrative apparatus, all these agencies, the environment protection agency, federal comedic asian commission, most of the started with the new deal and they combine legislative, executive and judicial powers.

madison called the essence of tierney. that is the problem we face. >> congress passes a law the president signs it. >> congress passes a law is a problem. congress to pass a law. they don't legislate, they delegate, they allow administrators, people nobody has voted for or any way accountable and congress tells them you write the rules, you make the laws. give them a very vague aspiration. we want clean air or no discrimination or fair railroad rates and allow those people who are supposed to be the experts to make the laws. congress what they do for the most part is sit back and intervene in individual cases, their constituents get in trouble with constituent service which is more helpful to them in getting elected and easier than the hard job of making policy choices and legislating.

the problem is congress doesn't legislate, not doing its fundamental constitutional job. >> as the increase in the bureaucratic state in explicit, implicit, slow? >> in waves, in quantico the scientists call it. the first was in the progressive era 100 years ago woodrow wilson who was a political scientist before he was president, a theory about giving america a new style administrative state. the biggest thrust came with the new deal with fdr after the great depression and periodically a reaction after increases in governmental power, americans have second thoughts and usually there's a conservative reaction is the next was the great society in the 1960s with lyndon johnson and the obama administration brought in the fourth wave, the

affordable care act and the dodd-frank act are these monuments, qualitatively a new step in the development of an american states. >> how has this affected you and i and everyone else? >> usually don't meet a bureaucrat face-to-face. >> everything you do in life is affected by rules these people make, anything that involves your healthcare now is increasingly dictated by health and human services to apply for a job there are all kinds of requirements and regulations and employers especially have to comply with all kinds of red tape. compliance costs of satisfying federal regulators are growing

exponentially. education, schools are increasingly being managed, schools is to be the quintessential local institution, a place where americans really govern themselves and these are being dictated to by washington. >> every aspect of life is being shaped by, effectively laws that are made and enforced by people nobody knows, they don't vote for or accountable to them, think they are managing the lives of ordinary americans better than ordinary americans sells. >> you is the 1927 radio act. >> herbert hoover has gone down in history has a laissez-faire conservative, was actually a progressive. the radio act, the federal radio commission, the power to issue licenses if you want to operate a radio according to their

public convenience, these people got to decide whether the public really needed a radio outlet and tremendously powerful power they had. newspapers are licensed to start a newspaper. radio ended up being a more politically manipulable form of media than newspapers. no accident that newspaper went for the new deal more than radio. because radio operators know your licensed renewal, it is going to be contingent on whether you play what the administration wants. an early example of political dangers of administrative discretion of licensing. >> the size of the federal government --

>> not as much as you would think. the number of personnel the federal government has employed hasn't grown since world war ii because the federal government states most of its regulating, all federal regulatory programs, the federal government gives money to the states and the states have to comply with federal regulations. the states are administering these programs, people haven't noticed so much the growth of the federal government in terms of personnel being carried out through the agencies and by getting private institutions to hire officers whose whole job of -- in compliance with federal regulations and enforcement of this done through state and private parties. >> what is the role of the federal register? >> compilation of regulations. didn't start until 1935, you have one central place where

people see what regulations are in the old days in the 19th century congress passed a statute, tremendously important statute three or four pages, federal register is thousands, tens of thousands of pages every year. the record was 80,000 pages in the 1980s and recently broke that record in 2015 so close to 100 pages of regulations and the important thing about that is the formally published regulations, federal regulators do so much by more random of understanding that are not published, subtle ways that don't leave official footprint in the record. it is the tip of the iceberg, nobody could keep up with all of it. big companies have to hire people whose specialties to deal

with regulation and some specific aspect of their business. >> in your view, the bureaucratic state, could it be attributed to congress? >> congress is fundamentally responsible. there unwillingness to make hard choices they have taken the easy way out because their fundamental interest is getting reelected and they find the current system increases their power even though it would appear to people the delegation of legislative power is congress giving away power, something -- congress is more powerful and more likely to stay in office under this new systems the house of representatives has an incompetency rate higher than the house of lords. you can watch them on ourwants,

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