on booktv afterwards program at 10:00 p.m., radio host, hugh hewitt provides a blue print for how the gop can successfully govern. and we wrap up our prime time lineup at 11:00 with the aclu formal legal director, jameel jaffer who weighs in on the u.s. drone program. first up, here is mary aiken. >> mary aiken, what is a forensic cyberpsychologist and what do they do? >> cyber psychology is the study of the impact of technology on human behavior. forensic considers the criminal behavior aspect. >> how did you get into this line of work? >> i first studied psychology back in the day and worked in the industry for a number of

years. in the late '90, i came across artificial intelligence from a chat box. have you spoken to a chat box? i would recommend it. i thought wow, this is fantastic. this learning algorithm that can talk to human and mimic our behavior and knowledge. i thought this could be fantastic and i thought or maybe not and i really realized that nothing in my training as a psychologist to date. i came across the work of writers here in the u.s. who wrote about cyber knowledge and i thought that is the future. everybody told me i was wrong

and i went back to masters of science and back to do a full phd in forensic psychology. >> what do we know about the effects of using the internet? is this about the internet and being online? >> i think it is about all things cyber. i think we are learning. my concern is the impact on the developing child. i can tell you what happened when you give an ipad to a 7-year-old or if an 8-year-old looks at hard core pornography what happens by the time they are 18? i think the behavioral sciences

have been blind sided by evolution and technology. i think there is now pressure, the behavioral science people for people to qualify and be able to actually advise parents and policy makers in terms of the impact of technology on human kind. as a cyberpsychologist, my aim is to deliver the intersection between humans and technology. or as law enforcement says where humans and technology collide. >> in your new book, "the cyber effect," you express that many u.s. children are given a cellphone by the age of six. is there a downside of that? >> of course. a cellphone is a powerful tool and a child that is six is not developed mentally, emotionally,

sociologically able to cope. they are not able to do so. if you think about the content that is available online, on the internet, let's say positive things first. i am told i just have justified that there is a lot of negative content in the book. here is how i see it. we have an army of mark tears out there telling us it is all good. my book is over here saying there are things we need to be concerned about. i want to bring the debate back to the balance filter where we can have balance in the discussion. so with children, the internet is not -- it is an adult environment. it is not suitable for children. >> why? >> access to legal but

age-appropriate content online. i raise this issue and people say parental control. here is the thing for parents. google by passes parental control and you will get a million results. you won't sleep tonight but you know what they can do. i don't know one 13-year-old that doesn't know how to by pass the controls. research in the uk shows 15% of parents didn't mind if their children accessed adult pornography online. when i see that coming through in research, then i think from a policy and governmental point of view, we have to step up because we have a juicy of care to protect children, protect them in a real world, we have to protect them in cyber space. and in fact, at the moment, i am involved in a lobby group, hey

justice, based in amsterdam and i am promoposing an amendment a the u.n. convention enshrines a child's right it a healthy mental and physical development. we see content moderators who work as human filters taking down extreme content or whatever they get, beheadings, extreme violence, child pornography and they are beginning to display signs of post-traumatic stress disorder. can we imagine the impact of this content on children? so to come back to the convention, i would like to ens enshithe rights of the child. it doesn't matter whether you

are the generator or the host of the content. if a child is exposed to extreme content in online in my opinion you are involved in a collective abuse of a child. >> mary aiken, someone born in 1990 has had technology all of his or her life. have they developed differently than perhaps you or myself? >> certainly. someone born in 2000 will have developed than 2010. it is an evolutionary process. that is the really interesting thing about my job. i am the academic advisor to the cyber crime system. and this constant evolving behavior. in forensic what do we know? colonel mustered in the kitchen, with the campbell stick, and it

is an informed but it helps to get ahead of the process and say what is coming next? i will give you an example let's take stalking. stalking in the real world is defined in a particular way. so the motive to engage in stalking is intimacy in the victims' life. it involves following someone around during the day and waiting around to close the curtains before they get back in. look at cyber stalking. it is quite different. it is not a glimpse of intimacy but access in real time. correspondents, diary, everything. and in addition, they stalk multiple victims at once. why? because technology allows them

to do so. in terms of the profile of the cyber stalker we see females engaging in cyber stalk and don't see that in the real world really. the basic question i is are we talking about the same thing? have we been lazy and applied a prefix and presumed it was the same behavior? that is what i do for law enforcement. i look at the revolving behavior and it tends to make sense of what is happening. >> our behavior changes when we go online? >> absolutely. i call it the cyber matrix. we are all familiar with perceived anonymity online. in addition to that, an

anonymity is a super human power and one we should not take lightly. now factor in the online disposition effect. it says people will do things in a cyber context they will not do in the real word. in the book i describe this space as being drunk online. now look at psychological imergz in the state. it is not like watching the television. it is a space, cyber space is an environment and we know from environmental psychology that environments affect our behavior. so you are now in this space. i say to parents if you think you have a problem with your kids turning up the dinner table with their cell phones in their hands just wait until they turn up with full head mounted display units where they are in virtual reality environments

where they are not only psychologically immersed in the space they are physically encapsulated in the space. >> what is that doing the development of a teenager? how is that changing that person? >> we are just beginning to find out. i just published a paper. when i decided to write the book i was working at about ten different research silos to cyber babies to sexting teens to organized cyber crime. and i began to observe whenever technology interfaced with base human behavior the result tended to be amplified and accelerated online and that is what gave me the idea for the book. i call it the cyber effect. it is this multiplier. if we could understand how

technology facilitated that multiplying effect i think we could come up with solutions to technology facilitated behavior. >> host: is it a case where we have to go cold turkey? is it is a case where we have to element our online activity to an hour a day? -- limit. >> guest: that is not possible. i am a cyber psychologist and couldn't work without my computer, cellphone or access to the internet. that brings us to the addiction. i am not someone that believes in internet addiction. why? addiction provides an abstinence model with we might as well say can you abstain from breathing air or water? in the age of technology, we need technology to live, work and communicate. it is not a question of addiction. in the book i considered the problem in a sort of darwinian

anthropo anthropolical and now that it is adaptive behavior. you know when you bite your nails because you are nervous? it is a metabolism in evoluti evolutionary context. the average person checks their cellphone 200 times a day. americans check their phones a billion times a day on any given day. ....

what do you think? the thing about the design of these products and my problem with the design is that they are designed to target our psychological and developmental heel.and this is where i move the conversation to really

talking about cyber ethics. both of us, we are done, cooked, not a lot is going to change. we will just get older in terms of our behavior. children, these critical developmental windows and technology is targeting children.there are products on the market that target infants from birth.there is one particular contraption. an ipad directly in the visual field of an infant, before the infant has the strength to with his neck and turned away, it's visual field is compromised by some cartoon. and if your baby is only awake for five hours a day as a newborn and that is 50 percent of the time you are entering

computer-generated imagery into their field, with all of these neural connections being made, where is that going to go away and that child in 20 years time may have incredible tech skills. but right thing is in terms of depth perception can they catch this all ãthe academy of pediatrics recommends zero screen time for infants under the eight of two. and no one knows. now we know. in addition to that, the problem with infants engaging in technology is one thing. but i think the question, a parent would say is not even just about what age do exposure infant to nology but with a you expose them to your use of

technology? total monthly environment. with the kids looking at their devices in linear clusters, would you do that? is important to make eye contact and infants. babies have face time, met the act sort of face time. products prior to coming on here i was kind of a well-known author and i was showing her your book and how it changes people's behavior and their minds. as she goes, oh yes i am not add because of technology. is that a fair self-assessment? >> in her case i am not sure. could you be, ãis a difficult area. but, we see children at school. see frontline reports of

children turning up in schools at age 4 and five. there is brilliant slipping skills but don't play locks or with a pencil. they also cannot regulate their behavior. when i see adults using virtual pacifying devices every time a child is unruly at a restaurant or will not still in a car, that child is not learning to self regulate their behavior. and that is a critical skill for them to develop. so is that a pathway into attention deficit disorder? we don't have the science to see whether it is or is not. but it certainly is possible. and it certainly is where common sense should prevail before we have more studies to support. >> are you self-aware of changes in how you operate because of technology and how your mind operates? >> that's a good question. i think that, the internet

addiction, i took a test. and at the end of it i have to say ? [laughter] the, the questions were did you ever ãdo people tell you you are online too often? do feel different off-line? but of course, i think that yes, i think we should all be aware of our behavior. for example, leaving your cell phone by your bed at night. that is not a good idea. why? does even when you are asleep your conscious being there. so i put ãmy own use. it goes from a blue light yellow which will move towards sleep.i also sent an alert

say on my computer that because of the hour on the hour to make me aware of the use of time. if i am doing a skype call, at 11 o'clock everybody says what is that five i try to use, i tried to be aware of my own time. what we call in psychology mindful. i try to be mindful of my own use of technology. i'm also going to try and move towards digital detox. a lot of my friends have started to do this. digital detox is where you saturday and sunday, if you can and are not working those weekends we abstain from using your technology. and i think that would be a good idea. plus, if anyone wants to try this i would advise that they tell everybody before they do it. because if you are somebody that uses your devices a lot, and you are always available

through your cell phone and all of a sudden you go missing for 24 hours or 48 hours, everybody will be alarms. and also, in terms of computer mediated communication, there are cues embedded in how we communicate or how we do not. so if you know somebody has a cell phone that they carry with them and tend to react quickly. the point in which they don't react you start thinking, are they annoyed with me? did i say the wrong thing? said that can create ? >> we talked about inhibition. do those things lead to more time ãcrime online. >> i would say there's a bigger factor at play which is what is described as a minimization of basis of authority online.

so, your kids line up in the real world, you go and shop window. people are going to say something. but young people online, there is a perception that no one is in charge. and that's because the reality is that no one is in charge. so we see this with the use in hacking behavior. i'm doing a study on this. i ãwe are looking at real-world technology with particular kids, friends were in a particular neighborhood. but we do not know anything really about the pathway. a kid with incredible tech skills, when into cyber juvenile delinquency? to a cyber criminal and into organized cybercrime. and then back to the skin searching was incredible tech skills, hardly even identify

him? what about the schooling and education system? we have the metric that was designed over 100 years ago. you get a greater paper with squares and a pencil and you put a dot in each one. in an age of technology ãi argument about that we need a technology quotient. ms. identify these kids early on. let's nurture their skills. let's reward them academically for what they can do and not show them a pathway into the security industry rather than engaging with hacking behavior which actually can end up giving them into a lot of trouble. >> as he started writing and as he finished writing "the cyber effect" you more worried or less worried? about our future? >> i felt a sense of relief. like a download.

i kind of take on my concerns and make sense of them. and then if you consider that in a certificate, look at what is happening in the world and how things are changing. look at trolling online. it is getting out of control. >> what is trolling? >> trolling is hate speech, racist comments, we see that twitter and other platforms have had major problems. and there was a great study done called trolls just want to have fun. effectively, the study looked at scores on an index for machiavellian traits, narcissistic traits, psychopathic traits and sadistic traits. and found that people who like to troll scored highly on all those. and, that is not a very pleasant personality type.

but without getting into the politics of it, my comment is that for those of us who are trying to eradicate hate speech, cyber bullying ãwhen public figures and politicians use cruelty as a strategy and appear to gain because of this, then that makes our job so much harder. >> i referring to the 2016 presidential election? >> i certainly am. >> in what way? >> it is no secret in terms of donald trump and his activity online. and, everybody seems to be shocked and surprised. but to me as a cyber psychologist, it is obvious what is happened. donald trump is a troll is jumped off of the internet into the real world. and the reason that this behavior is now acceptable is because online, this behavior

has become normalized. and socialize. so people are not that shocked. when the name-calling starts. that does not mean it is acceptable. and we talked about normal behavior. but what is normal? i would hate to think that that behavior had become an acceptable norm. i think we lost something as a society if that happens. and people see cyber as distinct. but what happens in cyber contact, what happens in the real world impact cyber. we have this opportunity at the moment whereby you still remember what is it you know people our age to remember what it was like free technology. i want to make sure that we do not lose that. this is a time capsule and we say hey, at this point in time.

by the time we are sitting in our smart cars and there were smart homes in our smart cities and we are consumed by it, i want people to be able to look back and say wow, there was a day when kids ran and played and poked each other and climbed trees. i do not want to lose those times. >> but kids also used to know how to milk cows and walk or ride in wagons. but we have evolved and changed since then too. so what is the problem of kids don't know how to climb trees? >> you need to do that developmentally. unstructured play is critical developmentally. it builds creativity and mathematical skills. it is critical. it is critical for humans that have evolved over 200,000 years and the thing is, what you see is the people ãthe thing that strikes me is in the tech

industry they are very careful how they expose children to technology. very careful. >> let's return to where you started and that is with our friend ãhow did you meet jabberwocky? >> a friend of mine is a computer engineer and he introduced me to it. the original designer. he is a genius and i was captivated by an i had conversations and i used to ask it sort of tricky questions. and initially back in the 1990s it got very confusing. and it said i don't know maybe i am what you think? and just recently i just went back to it and i asked it to know the ai.

i said are you god? and i had this incredible prognosis and yes, i am god and i am a man. and i said wow, conversations with 13 million people and the ai has figured out first of all how important it is to be god and second to be a man. which tells you something about the internet.i think you know, for women i feel very strongly that we are not involved in this space and all the struggles we have had over hundreds of years her rights and to impact on society ãwe are going forward to living a domain that is almost designed by men and as women, we have a responsibility to step up and get involved in this space. i think the more of us to get involved, the better space it will be. now i might be a little biased. [laughter] >> "the cyber effect" he