michael anthony chronicles after returning home from the iraq war in the civilian. this finds language that some might find offensive. >> good evening everyone.

saturday at 3:00 we will have the new middle great mystery and then on tuesday we have eugene with this novel. you can make sure that your cell phones are turned off and also when we do that q-and-a after the end of the discussion we had a microphone. we have michael anthony after he got back from iraq he did it bachelors and then nas leslie before the memoir about his experience and chris is the interim director of the program and the author about the courage

and how we respond. thank you very much. >> everybody can hear me okay? no, we can't. can you hear me? the image that was going around the internet about six or eight years ago.

it was in afghanistan and america is not at war. at the age of 20 went to iraq. he assisted the doctors and wounds saving american lives.

event is no longer wanted to live in the world that he fought for. it was difficult and reminded him of this cauterized smelling flesh. he writes we have turned parts of ourselves off, we have to to survive. it was hard for a number of reasons. partly his own kind of self awareness and vigilance about the project of reentry made it difficult. he was a troubled veteran that became aware of the cliché of the troubled vet and he wanted to remember and also to forget a

complicated thing. the thing that made it difficult for him that interested me the most is dealing with civilians of which i am one. the book is wise and insightful about that relationship or nonrelationship between soldiers and civilians. it's to give the members of the all volunteer military kind of an indiscriminate gratitude.

it's to cover our own willingness to sacrifice. pondering the experience of soldiers and veterans or carefully might lead all too readily to the question of why we ourselves have not answered were even heard the call to duty were more actively supported those that do, or joined the debate about whether fighting is the right thing to do. there is a conversatio conversaa book about a vietnam vet.

if someone gives about the war than to shake hands with someone who could give a shit less, so fucking, he scratched his chin and let it out. people are so passive, but that's how it goes. so this is the gap i found this book so effectively bridge in the way to help civilians better appreciate soldiers.

we want to civilianize soldiers and i don't know that that is the right thing to do and the book made me think about that. i don't want to know more about veterans to make them feel better, i don't feel guilty in that way. they have a great deal to teach about the sense of purpose and the life of dedicating one's sense to a cause larger than oneself without duty and about a lot of things that michael talkl talks about in his book and he makes this bridge in a way that

is unusual and unique in a variety of ways it's a wonderful observation and close through the humor in the book. i want to touch on a couple of the passages he laments feeling aimless, hopeless, just less all-around in the confusion. that is what got me the most. it is self-critical and he finds that she doesn't want to talk about the war and he gets tired of people breaking it up but then he realizes that he himself

is bringing that up and that is the problem of peace that he is grappling with and it's a problem that he is well aware and the buck refers to the predicament of others and the fact that soldiers are 50 times more likely to commit suicide at home at peace than they are in the field that makes you realize what a challenge it is to get civilian civilianize. there is a feeling of trying to be his authentic self. part of it had shut down. he writes but real smiles come e with squinty eyes and now i make sure to squint, too.

it sounds a bit like a bleak moment. but he is saved in a way by his sense of humor. i don't know if you have heard in the community these guys to pay tens of thousands of dollars to learn how to talk to girls. i came back from the war a young 21-year-old and so i thought i would learn hoi'dlearn how to p. so i got involved in these classes thinking that would save me. >> there's a couple of passages

i wanted to ask you to read. >> this is me out on one of these dating courses. she's trying to do his own things and i got kind of mixed in with them. i'm a suicidal threats and they are just in their own world and i'm trying to make sense of things and this is just us out on the town getting ready to pick up girls and on a side note one of the places they love to go with bookstores. [laughter] david didn't offer a refund so i figured i might as well go to

see if his techniques work. but i somehow started to feel for them like the war when the relationships that are forced upon you. they take on an unexpected intimacy. it's a shared experience that brings you together with whether or not you both like video games or basketball even though my classmates were combat vets i realized we were all fighting our own war of womanliness. they paid thousands of dollars not to get laid because we didn't want to be alone anymore. we were a helpless hopeless bum chick. right after that one of the guys almost gets in a fight with a boyfriend and then the night goes downhill from there. lots of drugs and drinking but there are some triumphant stories from the community as well.

there's another passage i wanted you to read on page 34. you would think that a young man, a veteran soldier would talk to a girl. i spent 12 months in a war zone, mass casualty situation, delivered ten babies, participated in four and 50 surgeries, hundreds of rounds and also received a badge and a metal, good conduct medal and iraq campaign ribbon and i can do this. but the thought of talking to a woman made me so nervous. the reason i started taking these courses is because i was in urban high school. i had a friend that i only found out years later on in high school she would tell girls to talk about balls in front of me because i would get really awkward and weird as it was a

big joke to have them talk about it in front of me and i remember when i heard the story later on because the first time it happened i froze up like i don't know anything about this what am i going to talk about so the next day i went online and researched. so a week goes by they are talking about it and i' and i'me dude you know they were invented in the 1870s -- said he came back thinking maybe if i can learn to talk to girls that will help save me. so that's the guy that came back from iraq taking these courses. >> can you get a quick short course for interested parties on either side?

these dating courses are very methodical. they break down every kind of scientific study that we approach. so they've got their own window. then you can and act phase two. so they are very methodical and connected through the army side like basic training. very methodical.

>> tell us about the title and how it came to you. >> it's just the act of coming home. home. we heard 22 veterans call themselvethemselvesthemselves ee home with ptsd. we talk about the aspects that they are more likely to kill themselves at home than at war so if you think about it, if everything that happens in the war is what makes them kill themselves than they would probably kill themselves in the war and that's what is happeni happening. but there's something about the coming home. it's not just the war but it's the war and then coming home from it and that transition where something is happening where we are getting those high rates of depression and alcohol abuse and drug abuse. >> and the book has what you call a deadline i that is the kd

of promise you made to your se self. so even in these suicidal thoughts, he is putting together a dating profile and with hard fighting it nothing seemed right that it is easier to figure out what was wrong i decided to leave out the suicidal stuff. ..

their teachers that teach one aspect and another aspect so in the book focus on three or four months after being home. i probably spent 10 or 15 grand. i took on three or four courses and some were good and some are bad. they were actually really get to the ones that were the best ones are the ones they call inner game so they focus on doing your inner game. instead of your outer game when you are gaming the girl your inner game where you are naturally attracted. so actually my last one that i

went to was an inner game correspond to grant on this one and the guy is like mike focus on it what you have to do is go on and a woman died and give up women for six months. i'm paying this guy to grant to teach me how to talk to girls and he says you've got to give girls up in oka sun yourself. i'm going to go six months with no girls and two weeks later i met my wife and gave up on this guy. spin it as you say in your web site there are the creepy and i don't know their tips you can give data audience if you know you are being gamed how can you tell? >> how can you tell if you are being gamed? if it's a really good game. here is the line everyone uses. if somebody asks you if you

floss before or after you flush flush -- brush is a gateway -- gateway line into conversation. [laughter] it will make since when somebody comes up to you and says it. >> how about the cover? it's just with the jacket off and what is that? >> this is just redacted information. everyone knows the military document is redacted so is representing the redacted stories today like to tell them military stories that i like the full picture. so many times is romanticized versus stories and i think to help veterans and talk about these things we have got to tell the full story, the full birth of the story that paints people as real soldiers not just the

180 pounds six-foot one inch person. it's real people fighting these wars and real people coming home from these wars and if we really want to help people live we have to see them as the real people that they are. >> there were a couple, one of things the things you talk about is the residual anger about some of the injustices of corruption you witnessed. there's a great name but not the real names of these officers. you say the wrong people being called heroes and in some cases they would fictionalize reports and make soldiers, you were forced to take a metal accepting a metal made an officer look good. it tears at you more than you would imagine you said. as a still bother you and why? >> yeah i have a lot of people

die in my hands while i was over there. i think what really messed me up the most was seeing people lying in award. i could fight wars and almost die and have people died in my hands but seeing like a soul fall apart. somebody is just trying to do anything from an award. they fight long and hard for a bit of ribbon and seeing that an action where people are fighting and lying for the ribbon. it just breaks your heart and breaks you inside to see that time and time again. and just coming home one of the reasons i wrote the book was i talk about it and i was on a date with this girl. she starts talking about a newspaper article she had read in one of the local newspapers. it's about this guy who just came back from iran and how he's in the pit of me as an american soldier and just a perfect g.i.

pair she's telling me about the story and i'm like i enjoy a good war story. what is the theme and she said that lally. he's one of the biggest dirtbags and the entire unit. i called a buddy of mine is that you are going to believe this. the first thing he says it's let's go burn this guys house down. so i mean people coming home and a lot of real heroes in the military and a lot of great guys and real heroes but they're also guys who chase ribbons and fight for better ribbon and it happens me and a few buddies were nominated for these awards. we don't want the award. we don't want to stand up and look like idiots just like in high school when you do stand up there and get your participation trophy. we don't really want to do this. on the other side you have people that were petitioning to change military regulations so

they could get an award because something happened they didn't qualify for it. they wanted a combat action badge. it was on ordinance that exploded and was an unexplored ordinance because it didn't explode. they shoot the rock out and these guys they thought they would have qualified for an award but not really so they tried to change army regulations just so they could get this award and later on in and this guy wanted you to liar city to get an award. i said i didn't even like you. i might dig about it if i like you but i didn't even like you. it just tears at your heart when you are fighting for these things and you think you are fighting for something and then you get these guys wearing the same uniform as you better just fighting for that ribbon. >> i mentioned that passage where you're talking to a vietnam vet and he saying i

would rather have somebody spit on me than shake my hand. there's a book called thank you for your service and talk about the resentments of veterans and yourself and a fawning attitude is sort of shallow curiosity. he doesn't want to hear about the non-heroes in that kind of stuff but i'm wondering let's say what you see a soldier in uniform at the airport. do you say thank you? do you just let him be or at the bar where beverages served? how would you recommend for those of us who are civilians for life to talk to you and approach you attitudes as

friends,, strangers? >> i will tell you two quick stories. one was in the publication of my first book. i let -- met thousands of vets at things just like this and i remember talking to a lot of vietnam vets and they would say thank you for your service and i would say thank you for your service. this happened to me dozens of times. no one has ever said that to me before, you know? i can understand not supporting a war but the vietnam war was what it is in the iraq war was what it is so i can understand but for people to not remember nice that you're willing to give up your life and went over and did this and now it's 2000 whatever and the first person to say that, a dozen people. the other end of this is you go back to one of those dating classes. i took one of those dating classes and it was a really good when where you work on those inner games. there was one scenewhere one of these exercises their worst this

big guy and we are doing this and turn all meditation exercise and this really dig guy had this breakthrough where he just realized something about himself, something about life in these having this really big breakthrough in the starts crying. it's one of those cathartic cries that full body cathartic cry. he just realized something about his life and he's having this perfect rate. right in the middle of his cry in his cathartic moment one of the other guys from the course walks in and says awesome breakthrough, high five dude. he's right in the middle of this full-bodied cry. the guys just like high five, dude. i feel like sometimes vets coming back from the war in that zone and someone comes up to you and you feel like high five, dude. you don't really know what's going on inside me on inside many don't realize what you are thanking me for her what i went through. when you first came back i think

you are in a zone and you think high five, you know? >> we can open up for questions and we are told that you should use that microphone there. i was going to ask you while folks are pondering that, i wanted to ask you also about a couple of things you talk about that helped you through life. just re-entry reading and writing being one of those things are two of those things. you talk about that because with the deadline approaching it felt like it was raining back. cement one of the things they really help me once i got that story about that guy who was called a hero and wasn't a hero and my friend wanted to burn his house down. at that point i really started

to think about writing a real war story just getting out there and telling a true story. hemingway once said a man can write one true sentence. i started writing about a true war story just telling a true war story not good or bad or anything like that. i really think once i have something to focus on besides something shallow like meeting girls just to focus on it once i had a purpose again and something to go after it really helps me. you have to realize you were in this zone where you have to be 100% on your game all the time. you have to be 100% focus, 100% under game and you are doing something that's purposeful and something every day that's purposeful. you come home and it's what am i going to do now? nothing causes you to be on your toes like that. i think once they have something to chase after and put my full force towards that helped me out a lot.

the book called slow by mccaul tchaikovsky, something like that, name. he said we are not our happiest when we are lacked -- relax. we are happiest when we are focused and doing something and that's what got me in the zone. back in iraq i was a now son 20 for seven and you come back and you're going after something brighter than myself, were story to help veterans that zone gives you something to focus and work towards. >> you also talk about neural feedback which is something i'm not familiar with. >> the nero feedback i describe it as an appear at experiment to help veterans. there are lots of yoga and meditation drugs and therapy. but i tried this thing called nero feed back where they who thinks things up to your brain

and he played video games with your brain. supposed to help you rewire the brain and the neurons or something like that. you'll think about that so i did an experiment with two different things. so some the book itself i talk about, it's kind of an embarrassing story but i went to the neurofeedback thing and it's supposed to rewire your brain instead of thinking of something negative you think of something positive. i had been having some bad thoughts and nightmares and stuff like that and after i did the neurofeedback i had a. so is my first since high school , 10 or 15 years so the neurofeedback rewired something in my brain. for the better. [laughter] >> and you also i first became acquainted with your work through your writing community.

can you tell us a little bit about that? >> it's a great community started by this woman and as a group of veterans that get together and write about their wartime experiences. i think that's talking and sharing stories really helps them just to make sense of things and no they are not alone in what their experience in a the shared experience can help other veterans as well. the va has done a study and the number one thing that helps veterans with ptsd is exposure. not meeting with another therapist is vets getting together and talking about their experience. it's exposure therapy. it's just getting together and sharing stories. >> i want to go back to that question about those of us who are not fellow that's partly how can we help but it also goes back to what i said at the beginning which was for selfish reasons how can we get out of

that fellow citizens who are veterans, how can we better interact with them? buying your book i would say is a good move and reading it as much as possible but are there things like, things where they intentionally have veterans and civilians and of course veterans are civilian. stu: but aren't there other things and what would you recommend to say to that man in the airport or that woman in the airport with the uniform on? >> i think it's a tough call. you want to go 50 years without anyone acknowledging his service as well. that's the hardest part of trying to get out there and start those conversations and have those conversations. i try to keep my sense of humor and tell those dating story so it makes it easier to talk about things.

if we focus on certain things that's going to be our conversation but if we can make a little bit funny and talk in people instead of just civilian soldiers, just have these conversations. he went through this and i went through that. it's not putting anyone on a pedestal. having conversations with the person. >> i had some questions like did you actually kill somebody in those kinds of things that i sense were third rail kinds of questions and there's a moment in the book when you are talking with a fellow veteran who is getting competitive about that. that was interesting to see because of course in the simplistic romantic view all veterans communed automatically but i forget how you did the scorekeeping. he didn't try to play one up. >> it's like measuring but the

combat. who is head to most people die in their hands? who almost died most times? it's like sometimes again feeling they have an embargo on emotions. you only sought eight people die? i wes scott. i have a right to feel this way but you don't. >> you also are virally famous for a joke and it gets at this question but especially the civilian veteran. is it a lightbulb joke. >> it has a different -- [inaudible] >> it's not about the military.

it's a joke about reaganism. >> my next book i'm working on is another memoir that takes place after this and it's a story about my wife. she is a vegan and i tried to turk her -- turner back into a meat. i made a bunch of jokes and those were the ones that went viral. it was the vegan jokes went viral. there's a joke an old military joke. how many vets does it change -- take to make a lightbulb -- how many vets does it take to change a lightbulb? you would know, man. you weren't there. just come to the microphone they said, please. >> first thank you so much.

the book sounds amazing and it takes a lot of courage to put yourself on the line in front of the world and mention your wives wife so thank you for that. i have a question about one of the things that made have made your re-entry difficult. the concept of moral -- have you heard something about this before? i gather there are different definitions floating around and he ideas the ptsd which is very specific psychopathology idea and moral injury is more like a full entry which is something you referred to recently when you're talking about people seeking medals just for the sake of it. people do find it more in terms of anytime you go into a combat situation there is a violation of your moral code. so what was your experience with that? >> i think probably myself felt the moral injury side site when i came back from war but part of

it is just coming home and you had to do things over there and you come back and oh was the iraq war supposed to happen or was it not supposed to happen? was their mass destruction and was their purpose for being there in the first place? you come back, and people are more concerned about the kardashians then they are with the kuwaitis or anything that is kandahar. i think it's that whole aspect of even the point. the first part of my deployment i was in mosul. ice has taken over and when we left mosul a year later the world health organization tried to come in and take over hot deal. it was too hostile. we couldn't go in there. you do all these things and you save all these lives in you put your life on the line in two years later back to a war zone. you come back home and people die. what is it for?

people don't even know we are at war. but like i said there are a lot of heroes in the military but when you see that 2% can mess you up. it's just that evil in the world. >> thinking about in terms of a moral injury is a more helpful in some cases as opposed to --. >> i think moral injury is a harder conversation to have. people with ptsd they saw dead and they can understand why somebody may have ptsd but when you talk about moral what is it brecher say in the politics involved so i think that's a harder conversation to have. >> do we have an official standing in the military? >> i think it's something i've only heard it within the last two years.

>> jonathan shea is a psychiatrist he who talks about it. other questions? >> hi. my question is about the writing process and the editing process of this book. it mentioned the cookie-cutter narrative. he talked earlier about wanting to write a true war story for your first memoir and i think some of those other prevailing narrativesthat hollywood lately seems to enjoy selling has to do with broken veterans coming home and so i'm wondering during the writing and publishing of this memoir were there moments for you where telling something true that is not cookie-cutter and doesn't fit into any of these narratives felt challenging are particularly important or you

know exciting like you achieved it? >> one story comes to mind. one story that i wrote about in out about taking now. it's a crazy story and even though it's true it's one of those crazy stories words like this is too crazy. people are going to think i'm making this up. the story was when we were in iraq we were working in the hospital during surgery and do you ever watch a movie or tv show when someone has a scalpel and that mysterious hand that slams that scalpel. one day during surgery the anesthesiologist we are working on it and the combatant and he said hey i have this crazy idea. he breaks out this book and he says let's try to hypnotize this enemy combatant. the anesthesiologist is like yeah man.

they start to hypnotize this patient and we have this enemy combatant on the table and we are trying to hypnotize him. you want to kill the other terrorists and we are just trying to hypnotize. he goes away and more patients come in. as long as they are enemy combatants and not american soldiers we try to hit it ties them. the only reason we stopped in her hypnosis plan is because at the same time it was halloween and iraq in my unit had a halloween party. people dressed up in whatever costumes they had and dressed up as a ghost. some of dressed up with warpaint and cat whiskers in something like that in a buddy of mine dressed up like a gangster. get a doo rag and saggy pants. one of my buddies dressed up

like a gangster. he's a big nerd. buddies out there in on the dance floor dancing and doing his thing and whatever the party goes on to the next day comes. somebody gone to the party in the criminal investigation unit of the army and at this point in time and the army there were investigations going on because there were a lot of innings in the military. so he goes to this party and sees this guy with his live long and prosper symbol. cid starts investigating her unit for gang activity. the cid is investigating argument for gang activity. they hear about this and they're freaking out. the cid is going to stumble on her hypnosis plan. paranoia runs high when you are hypnotizing double agents. we had to stop that but it was one of those war stories.

i can tell this, this is too crazy. nobody's going to believe this story. that was one of the stories i thought about not telling because it was too crazy. it's war and crazy things happen in the world the time but sometimes it's crazier than you think. >> it's a writing process itself were there stages him which was easier or harder? you are talking candidly about personal matters. where there strategies you used where maybe it all flowed? >> all i tried to do was break it down to their bones. it's a very quick read. i tried to get rid of any type of fluff or anything that wasn't part of that raw feeling that i was looking for prey wanted a quick book that was a punch in the gut that you could read in one weekend and feel something and understand something about the coming home process.

i didn't want a big literary or academic that i wanted to rob book about coming home. >> i do a little bit of work with -- so i know people with ptsd but when you start talking about suicide you sound like you have a lot of funny stories and all of these things are very charming but i think what you have been skipping is you were very young when he came back. i was suicidal in my 20s and i can hold onto it any more why it was. you seemed more recent. can you -- you are well-versed about talking all the stuff that's going on and we talk about in epidemiological way. it's your own story. you were young and it didn't sound that you are out there shooting a gun.

maybe you did see a lot of people die but anyone working in an emergency room might have the same experiences that you have had. why were you at 20 so suicidal? can you speak to at? >> absolutely. one thing a lot of hospital people face called compassion fatigue. once you go through that experience all the time it is similar to working in the er er. the war zone so imagine what the hospital experienced after the boston marathon bombing. i'm sure was a crazy experience and imagine going through that every day. it just wears on you and you get that compassion. just seeing that compassion day you get everything going through those experiences. if combined with that moral and jury. you go through these things where you just have these people

die. you have to turn yourself off. when you are doing surgery you can't feel these people. when somebody dies on the table you have to let it go and dust yourself off and become this robot and you come home and you have to turn that part of yourself back on. it's a struggle to turn out part back on and you see the world around you. you are coming back, and he don't care about the war and you are facing the moral injury war. people are being called heroes that should have been called heroes in the first place and you're just trying to make sense of these things. ..

the er looking for help but we closed the doors because they are having we arehaving a cerem. so he's sitting there in this chair, for 45 minutes. the next day it's like a five hour surgery. he sat there and of course they were given to the commanders and not anyone working in the hospital. so, stuff like that makes you want to give up. you just want to give up and what's the point. people stink, you know.

>> how has it been returning to your hometown, is it like you arthat like youare comfortable t off for the same thing? >> some type of like when you come back stateside. does it make yo that make you wo out into a bigger -- a lot of guys when they come back they are just trying to find their place in the world again. what they are looking for. and it's a different world than they imagined. you think back home.

>> it's like who' >> it's like who's going to take care of me now. >> it was a time like i should wear a fucking, what color is your short? maroon, i should wear a maroon shirt. he took up smoking between leaving high school and your brother comes upstairs and it's smoking.

i was going to ask you to read from the epilogue if there is any last questions. your writing has a lot of humor. how did humor help in your writing process or just in general to get back to everything in the process? that is my question. >> you look at the world and i guess for me it makes it easier for me to talk about things and reflect on certain aspects. that makes it easy to talk about

these things. >> a lot of the humor in the book is kind of situational. a lot of the situations that you wind up in and getting yourself into those, that is part of what will make this book as i said to bridge the gap between the civilians and while it is serious and it does reckon with the questions about the suicidal impulses, it's also really funny throughout. the mac one thing i found disturbing that goes on about the conversations is a lot of people between opposing the war

and the act of not supporting veterans. is there a way that you think is right to discuss that that doesn't denigrate what they do but disagrees with the way things are "-begin-double-quote, how do you see that conversation taking place? >> i have heard where people talk about that. i was reading an article about how donald trump got elected. we shouldn't have gone to iraq in the first place. he attacked others for going to the iraq war and how that helped him get elected. but he's advising this ten years ago, people were calling me a coward for doing this and i think the conversation has been changing where we can support

the war in the first place that the iraq war is changing. we probably shouldn't have gone there in the first place. the conversation is changing between the supporting. we could agree there were no weapons of mass destruction, probably shouldn't have gone in there. it has been changing in that way we can support the soldiers that we can admit is going on with this war seriously are already headed that way but it's important to keep in mind that there could be a distinction between supporting the war and supporting veterans. you can, you know, think those people for showing bravery in the battlefield. >> this conversation turns my mind towards a real empathy

towards young men who are by the standards of the culture or so many things in the entire human history to be drawn into this all volunteer army or be forced into the vietnam era and a friend of mine from high school we are back in touch and he was 100% disabled vietnam veteran. and he was just a dumb 17-year-old drawn to the war. i just keep feeling like there is a bigger piece here and that is all i have to say.

>> thank you. any other questions? >> she's going to read the epilogue now. >> before you start, i will say i'm sure you are glad to sign books after. so why do these stories instead of the thousands of others that happened at the same time. kovacs these are the stories that stick out even though they are silly. some things just leave an impression. you never know what you are going to remember and what will have the biggest impact. i stepped off the plane in a thousand times and i remember

sitting on the roof playing guitar and playing baseball and the feeling of holding the bat. i remember what i was eating when i heard him try to kill himself and the feeling of fascination as i watched the misfits from 37 different states somehow come together to run a hospital to save thousands of lives. that's what memories are for, living and remembering again and again. whether we like it or not. sometimes the soldier returns home and all he can do is share the story in the hopes that in some way it will make a soldier make sense of things and though they may not be perfect or so we hope. [applause]