interesting to see the whole thing laid out with all these anecdotes to ge give people like christina, a lot of people, real human beings who struggle with these things and you're the scientists who discovered it, like the guy who found out about the viruses. at least it tells people that are individuals behind these things and you are individuals who suffer some of the consequences, too. so it was fascinating book. >> guest: thank you. i hope it really enlightens people. ..

>> good evening. ang evening of conversation and discussion about our christian witness in the 21st century. and the occasion is, of course, rod dreher's new book on the benedict option. before i introduce our speaker i want to thank the cosponsors of this event. my name is rusty reno and one of the sponsors of the event is first things magazine, that i edit, and the other sponsor is plow, and i'd like to think peter munson, the editor, for contributing to make this happen.

it was peater's -- peter's idea to have this event and i'd like to thank the folk tuesday american conservative, where rod dreher is the senior editor and a tireless blogger, and as we all know. in fact right now he is posting. and the folks the american conservative that -- and the folks at plow -- i'd like to thank those at first things are trying to think about how to move forward in very tumultuous times of a very deep change, not just in the political culture but thick also there's a sort of spiritual earthquake abroad in the west and in our society, and we're trying to think about what that really means and how to live faithfully in the current context.

and so the plow magazine is on everybody's chair, and american conservative, believe, on everybody's chair, and there are subscription cards in the magazines, ready for you to fill out. and because we're cheap at first thing wes didn't provide -- no that's not true. we didn't provide everyone a copy because we assumed that given an audience like this, of so many wonderful people, we just assumed you were all subscribers already. so yaw have already gotten your copy in mail. if per chance yours was lost in the mail, we'd be happy to provide you a copy and an opportunity to subscribe. enough of the promotion and sales pitch. it's my honor to be able to introduce our speaker, rod dreher. an accomplishinged author, of crunchy con, how dante can save

your life, and of course "the benedict option." i think to me more than an author, rod dreher is a teacher. his blog is a place where not thousands but tens of thousands of people come really, often daily, to think about real questions. it's the only place probably onliney you can be an eavesdropper or active participant, a. people who make comments are responded to by rod in his column, and his blog, and then ideas are developed more fully. so it's a genuine conversation and one of the few places you can go and think about or read about -- charles taylor, serious ideas, serious people or for

that matter, where else can you go and have somebody mention -- perhaps even in the same posting. so, it's really an ongoing semar seminar for many people through the united states as many faithful people as they're trying to think about how their faith should be lived in the present age. so tonight i'd like to introduce rod dreher in his role as teacher, and his remarks this evening which we follow by panel discussion, and his remarks to help us teach, think about how to live as christians in the 21st century. nit apleasure and join me in welcoming rod dreher. [applause] [applause] >> thank you for that generous

introduction, anybody who buys a copy of the book will be get an a on the way out. it's so great to be back in new york tonight. the happiest heres of my life were spent here and i'm happy to say old friends here, father jerry murray, and friends from all over and new friends, too. so thank you very much. i do believe that this is a really important time for all of us people i i consider small os, christians, evangelical, rockie catholic and eastern orthodox to couple together and talk about what to do in this moment, what to do with the time we have. and i want to thank so much plow magazine and my only magazine, american conservative, for sponsoring this event you may have seen some criticism of me and the benedict option for being alarmist. the critics are right.

i am alarmist about the state of our culture and civilization and the condition of the church within it. if you are a faithful christian and you're not alarmed, i think you're failing to read the signs of the times. i think you're not paying attention. i do not claim that the world is coming to an end. after all no man knows the day or the hour. but i claiming and seems perfectly obvious than a world is coming to an end and if christians don't take radical action, the fatal made western civilization will not survive for long in service civilization's most christian faith. a few years ago a noted public intellectual said that, quote, it is obligatory to compare today's situation with the decline of the roman empire. the final days rome still functioned as a grate historical framework but in practice it

vital energy had been depleted. close quote. the intellectual went on to lament the collapse of the spiritual forces that sustain us. that public intellectual is pope benedict xvi. when they air of a global throne says that the west is facing its greatest spiritual crisis since the fall of the western roman empire, attention must be paid. what are the signs of the times, then? after all, the west is living in a time of unprecedented peace and prosperity, so i hardly need to point out the sense of mounting political crisis throughout our civilization, and mind you i just came in this afternoon from a couple of days in washington and whether you're on the test or the right, people are anxious about the future. but bonds off our spiritual depletion are impossible to deny and if we're spirit actually depleted, morally exhausted, our

peace and prosperity will not last. i won't recite to you a litany of statistics but i do want to focus on a few that are particular interest to christians. i think most of us realize that the christian faith is flat on its back and secular europe. the united states has long been thought of as a counter example to the secularization thesis. that it is no longer tenable, writing last year in the american journal of sociology. scholars say that the data now show that the u.s. is on the same downward path of disbelief, pie needer by our european cousins. according to data from the pew research center, one in three 18 to 29-year-olds have put religion aside if they ever picked it up in the first place. and those younger americans who do remain affiliated in some capacity with the institutional

church haven't been form by a sued to'm that resembles christianity in name only. christian smith and his colleagues call this moralistic therapeutic theism. it teaches a malleable, feel-good, jesus can like philosophy, consumed to a consumerist, individualistic, post christian society that worships the self. smith found that ntd is the de facto religion of most young americans today. and findings published in 2013 smith found that among 18 to 23-year-old christians surveyed, only 40% said their personal moral beliefs are grounded in the bible, are some other religious sensibility. 40%. and astonishing 61% of those emerging -- so-called emerging

adults said they have a moral problem at all with the materialism and consumerism, and added 30% expressed some form about materialism but said it's not worth worrying that. this view, say smith and his team, quote, all that society is, apparently,s is a collection of awe ton news individuals out to enjoy life. american has lived a long time off its then-christian veneer -- thin christian veneer necessitate by the cold war, committing told me in an interview. that is all finally been stripped away by the combination of mass consumer capitalism and liberal individualism, he said. the marx socialist coined a frame that captures the spirit of our time and place. liquid modernity. modernity is characterized by a conscious break with the authority of the past and its

institutions. for baumann, solid modernity describes the first stage in which the pace of change quickened from the past but it was still slow enough for most people to adjust. things still seemed more more or less solid. but now, we have moved into liquid modernity, a time in which the pails of change is so rapid that nothing, no new institutions no new habits in new customs, have time to solidify. in liquid modernity, he said, the most successful person is the one who has no allegiances response himself and self-and he can change at will to suit his own preferences and there's no solid group anymore. now from a christian perspective i liken liquid modernity to the great flood of the bible. all the familiar landmarks of

our faith are very quickly being submerged and swept away. when guy to evangelical colleges to talk about the benedict option, i'm often shocked -- shouldn't be surprised by shock by hearing from professors who say that so very few of their students, own those that couple out of christian homes and churches and christian schools, know so very little about the basic facts and the basic narrative of the christian faith. this flood cannot in my view, be turn back. the best we can do is construct arcs within which we can ride it out and by god's grace, make it across the dark sea of time to a future when we do find dry land again and can start the rebuilding, receding, and renewal. so what is the benedict option and what does is have to do with this dire scenario? the term comes from the famous fire paragraph of the 1981 book,

"after virtue. the enlight canment could not produce an authoritative replacement for it. the west haas been unraveling for some time and in macintyre's view it's reaching a point of reckon, liberalism is not sufficient to do the necessary work of binding society together and giving its members purpose. in his book's conclusion, mcintyre also compared our present time to rome's collapse. though he indicated that our wealth obscures from our eyes how fragile we really are on the inside. in post imperial roman times and men and women of virtue quit trying to shore up the existing social order and instead focused on building new forms of

community within which they could live out their moral traditions amid civilization's rupees andary very uncertain future. mcintyre said today we await, quote, new and doubtless very different st. benedict. he was been in the year 480. four years after the last roman emperor abdicated and was sent out to the of rome to complete his education. but benedict saw there and the rome of the barbarians, disgusted him. benedict went to the forest to play and fast and seek god's will for his life. eventually he founded 12 monasteries governed by a constitution. the rule is a thin, plane policeman net nor running of a

monastery which he called, quote, a school for the lords service. it's not a book of virtual secrets. it's a book that sets out anard for living for the trade of of the spiritual life. if you have read the rule, as i have, you may be shocked by how plain it is. really thought this we be some book of miss mystical situation and it's not. the key role this little book played in saving western civilization. as benedict died, mon mon stairism exploded. the monks spread out ore europe and brought the faith town churched people. they todd them how to pray and taught them how to grow things and make things, skills that had been lost in the catastrophe that was the fall of rome. and the rituals rituals ritualsr

goings the months kept alive the cultural memory of christian rome. because they took a vow of the sacred promise to remain in the monastery where they took their vows until the end of their lives, peasants would gather round the monastery as citadels of light and order in a dark and chaotic time. in this is they were -- the cultural memory across the stormy waters that obliterated roman civilization. it all happened not because benedict of mercy had set out to make rome great again but because he sought to figure out how to best serve the lord in community, during a terrible crisis, and everything else, every good thing that came after followed from that decision. i right about my visit to the benedictan monastery.

i interviewed the monks there about how their core values and practices could be applied in everyday christian life outside the monastery. prayer, work, hospitality, stability, community, and benedictan daily life all of these things worked together in balance to lead the monks into a sense of life-giving order, suffused bay senseof the divine presence around us. father fullsome, who was the pryor or the leader of the monastery, told me that the monastery and its life of christ-cloak folk us kid prayer is a sign of contradiction to modern world. he told me, quote, the guardrails have disappeared and the world risks careening off a clift but were so captured by the light and emotion of modern life we don't recognize the

danger. the forces of dissolution are to great for -- disillusion are to great. we neat to imbed ourselves in stable communities of. faith, close quote. so what does this look like for ordinary, everyday christians, catholic and otherwise, who are called to live in the world. does the benedict option call for christian cozy head for hills and build high walls to keep the world at bay? not at all. contrary to what you read, not at all. we have to evangelies or we fail to fulfill the great commission. we have to serve our neighbors or we fail to serve our lord. put all thoughts of total withdrawal out of your mind. that is not what the benedict option calls for. but it does call for a strategic separation from the everyday world. what do i mean by that? i mean that we have to erect some virtual walls so to speak,

between ourselves and the world for the sake of our spiritual formation and discipleship. in this post christian society, the dissipating force of outside culture is overwhelming. we cannot expect to go out into the world and keep the candle of our faith lit anymore we could walk outside of a church with a lit candle in a gale force wind and keep the candle lit. wilson was an inspiration for the ben did option, an essay re wrote in 2004 talked about how to he loss of cultural memory of christianity, and how vitally important it is for the church today to tell itself its own story. because we're forgetting. and i asked them -- read the benedict option. i said what do you think we

should do? he said it's all there in the book. take the book and do what it says there. and to get that endorsement from somebody i respect and admire as musk as robert wilken is quite an honor. here's the paradox of the benedict option. if the church is going to be the blessing for the world that god means for it to be, then the church is going to have to spend more time away from the world, deepening its commitment to god, to scripture to the christian history and tradition, and to each other. we cannot give to the world what we do not have. yes, we should engage with the world, but not the expense of our fidelity and our sense of ourselves as a people set apart. let me use a couple of examples from the hebrew bible to illustrate what i mean. in airmia, chapter 29, the lord speaking through a letter from the prophet airmyarch tells his people in their babylonian

compile to set, exile to settle down and he planned to deliver them one day but for the time being, he wanted them to settle there. but the lord also warns, do not let the prophets and diviners among you deceive you. do not listen to the dreams youen courage them to have. they are prophesizing lies to you in my name. i have not sent them, declares the lord. what's that about? in the exile community, there were would-bev profits who told the jewish people whatnot they wanted to hear -- what they wanted to hear. they told them a comforting popular lie. jeremiah, hoe, was a true profit -- prophet of the word and because jeremiah lived outside of the exiled community he could hear the large voice more clearly. somehow, though, the jews in

exile had to figure out how to obey god's command to integrate into babylonian society while at the same time not being assimilated. in the book of daniel, we read the story of three jews who were state officials. when the king ordered his officials to bow down before a false idol those three men refused even on pain of death. the king threw them into a firey furnace and the fire did not consume them. anybody the king repent sped restored them to their position. how did they do it? how did they live lives that were completely integrated into the establishment. again, they were state officials but also in -- the same time developed sump a strong faith that they were willing to lose everything without bowing down.

that the question facing christians nowed our own babylonian exile. we have to walk a middle path between christian fundmentallists who reject everything about the world, to and the accommodationists who love the world so much that they rashallize idol workship for the sake of comfort and privileges. engaging the pull tour is something we have to do but it must never become an discussion to pinch of inkrenz to cease are so. winsomeness must never conceal our moral cowardice from ourselves there must have been something about the daily lives and the daily practices of the men in babylon that trained them spiritually. so that when way were put a to the ultimate test they passed. it has to be that way with us, too.

we and the church are failing at this today, and failing badly. those numbers i cited earlier in the talk tell a tale primarily of christian infidelity. if we depth change our way of living, our way of praying and being the church together, we are not going to survive as the church. we will be assimilated. there is no middle way. in the benedict option i talk about the various ways we and can should do this. i write about education, the workplace, prayer and worship, family and community, the way we use technology, and the way we think and approach -- thing below and approach sex and sexuality. there's no time tonight to get into this but i want to say few words about one area on the minds of a lot of people right now. politics. as i was writing the become, like almost maybe the room i expected hillary clinton to win the presidency. had that happened, the future of the religious liberty could have

been very bleak. did not happen, though. today i hear some conservative christians breathing a sigh of relief as if donald trump's victory sounded an all-clear. don't believe it. not for one second. i am as pleased by the neil gorsuch nominationing a anyone about we have not seen yet, and we may not see at all, the'll liberty executive order that we all wanted to see from this president. nor do we see much enthusiasm in the republican congress to pass religious liberty legislation. my great fear is that conservative christians may end up having been played for fools by this administration. desperately hope i'm wrong. but let get serious, even if donald trump were a saint, he could not turn back the cultural tsunami of liquid modernity. because this is far beyond the power of politics to do. if america had elected a cross between pericles and bill a y

graham -- billy graham we would still knee the benedict option. was writing a deck bade before the decision which seems to have. shocked a lot of christians into realization about where we actually stand in this culture. it same-sex major did not exist we would still snead the benedict option. the core problem is not gay people or liberal democrats, immigrants are 0 anybody else. the core problem is a cultural and a civilization that has turned its back on christian orthodoxy. the problem christian friends, is us. in dante's devine comedy, for me is -- when the pilgrim dante finds him option the holy mountain and he says, he's come from tusk any tuskny, the world

is a mess, social breakdown. what can we do marco, and turned it around? marco says, brother, the world is blind and you, too come from the world. and the goes on to tell the pilgrim dante, if you want to know how to change the world, turn things around, start with yourself. look insidure -- inside your own heart because that problem is with you. that's good advice for us, for your teacher and speaker tonight. recovery and rebuilding the world we have lost i believe is going be the work of centuries. i believe that christians have to stay active in conventional politics working for the common good and especially fighting to protect religious liberty. but we cannot afford to make the same mistake the prior conservative. that's thought not the problem was american cultural was

fundamentally moral and if our side could just capture the political and judicial offices we could restore the republic to its moral footing. they were wrong. republicans kept winning. a fact that obscured the long-steady loss of the culture. i believe that the politics in the benedict option should be localist and small c catholic in its scope. it's more important for us to strengthen churches, start schools, and build up the local community than it is to shore up the empireum. i want america to prosper but far more important to be a faithful christian than to be a good american. the two should not conflict but when they do -- and they will more and more -- we have to know on whose side we're on. we have to know who our true king is. do i worry about persecution? to an extent, yes. county not talk to law professors to doctors, to educators and others who are living on the front line oses

the religious liberty debate and remain sanguine about the future. pastors and parents who do not prepare her to under their authority for that kind of future are failing in their duty. but that's in the future. as i see it, the greater problem right now is the steady erosion of authentic christianity by the restlessness of individualism, he donnism, and consumerism. we have to also face the fact that in some quarters on our own conservative side we're seeing the rise of an up godly racism that we have to repudiate. if we're going to stay true to our faith, i believe we're going to have to listen to voices from outside the right here and right now. that is, authoritative voices from the christian past, especially the premodern era and the era of the fathers. how else were going to be able to tell the difference between those who speak comforting lites that we all want to hear and those who, like jeremiah, preach

the word of god. we must be aware of religious leaders who are content the been chap las to contemporary cultural order. that way is death. marcos is an italian catholic layman and community leader one of the new and very different st. benedicts of our time. when i visited his thriving, joyfully orthodox catholic community in italy, i asked marco, how do you guy does it? this is marvelous. he said to me, quote, we invented nothing. we discovered nothing. we are only rediscovering a tradition that was locked away inside an old box. we had forgotten. well, modernity is a tome of final for forced forgetting. the benedict option is a project of preserving the memory what its to be christian. hope is memory, plus desire.

if we remember who we and desire to make the memories live again we have every reason to hope but we cannot ignore the warning that father -- gave me when i fir visited and told him about the benedict option. he said that if christian families and communities in the west, catholic, pros stand, and eastern orthodox, do not do some form of the benedict option, then, quote, they're not going to make it. thank you. [applause] >> we're going to bring the panel up and i'd like to turn things over to peter munson,

editor of "plow." peter was responsible for relaunching "plow." two years ago it was relaunched under peter's leadership and this evening's event was his -- he took initiative to make this happen. so thank you, peter and you can introducure panelists. >> thank you, rusty. i should quickly add to that, this event would never happened with without the working of the staff of the american conservative and we're glad to be together tonight and thank you, rod, for the stirring and important and timely words, and the purpose of this panel is to go deeper and farther into the themes you suggested, particularly i was struck by robert luis wilken's words to you, take and it do it. i hope this is a practice oriented panel. there's been a lot of high

flying from the helicopter analysis of the benedict option, but it valuable is how practical and don't to earth it is. this is not a theory. this is something we can talk about doing and i hope that's one thing we focus on tonight. we have the honor of a great distinguished panel and i'll go through and welcome each of you. starting from my right. your left. ross, needs no introduction for most people. ross blogs and is the author of a number of books including most relevantly to our topic, "bad religion, how we became a nation of heretics." he is contributed to a range of distinguished publications including tonight's co-convenor, first things magazine, and ross is also a regular columnist for one of our daily newspapers.

next to ross is my michael ware, the founder of public square strategies, focusing on the intersection of faith and politics and the armed for the president barack obama 2012 re-election campaign and served as one of the youngest white house staffers in modern american history and mansioned adoption and efforts against human trafficking and his new book, reclaiming hope, lessons learned the obama white house about the future of faith in america, just came out this year. so, welcome, michael. jack lin rivers is the executive director of the seymour -- dedicate to pro life and profamily community in the black church, at home and abroad. and she holds a ph.d from harvard university where she was doctoral fellow the john f. kennedy school of government. and with her husband, eugene rivers 3 republic, -- iii,

county eugene. she cofound the -- she has been doing a lot of the work we have been hearing about. and she speaks widely and is also a plow contributor, and next to me here is my brother, ron, ratessed in a farm family in minnesota. randall is a bishop of the community movement with his wife, linda, he helped establish communities in central and served there for 1 years before -- 17 years before moving back to state and hopefully he has gotten over his jet lag. if you need tipsing on kangaroo hunting randy is your man. with that we'll jump into our discussion tonight and the way it's going to work, first ross and michael will give a response to rod and then rod will have a chance to reply, and then

jacqueline and randall will follow and we've have a discussion. it will be very exciting. so, ross, take it away. >> thank you so much. thank you all for coming, and thanks to rod for being the reason that we're all here and in finally turning this into a book. have been on panels about what we think about the benedict option for as long as i've been a journalist. so it's wonderful to have a book to tell people about. should say that usual my when i've been on those panels, there's usually a debate like the one that rod alluded to in his remarks where somebody says, well, this is all very well and good, but you surely can't be arguing we should just head nor hills and then rods tears at his beard and rips off his glasses and saying, i'm not saying we should head for the hills and it goes on from there so i won't play the role of that

interlocutor but i'll go half away and say that -- halfway and say my take on the benedict option is that rod is right, even if he is wrong. by which i mean that this was a very, very gloomy portrait that rod just painted of the future of christianity and n the west, particularly the united states, and those who read our parish newspaper know i'm not noted for my wild, sunny optimism. and yet even i occasionally listening to rod and reading his blog and the pages of the very fine book do sometimes creek my eyebrow up a little bit and say, is it really so bad as all senate i think there are some reasons to be doubtful in the sense -- i generally have less confidence about all predictions about the future than i did since the startling rise of donald trump over the last 18

months or so. including especially my own predictions about politics, but extends also to extrapolation of present trends into the future. in that sense i think we're at a place in the story of american christianity where we just see through a glass darkly. we can't know for certain if what we're looking at, when we look the trends that rod discerps, is a collapse -- discerns is a collapse just off cultural christianity, a collapse in people's identification with a faith they never held to begin with that has some effect on the life of the church, but doesn't lead to, let's say, netherlands in belgium style collapse, mean nothing facebook to the five remaining christians in the netherlands and belgium. really, guys. but we don't know if that is the scenario we're looking at or if

we're looking at something more complete and sweeping as rod suggests. i think there are a lot of reasons that make our situation even more unknowable than usual. for instance, we are about ten or 15 or 20 years, depending on how you time it, into the great internet experiment which may only be accelerating. rod writes a great deal about that in the book eloquently and persuasively but there's an unknowability what the internet is doing to social life and religious line and childhood and adolescence, things that we become clear over the next 20, 30, 200 years buzz aren't clear now and the same is true of the interaction between religious life and our unexpectedly unsettled politics in the west. the same is true of the interaction between religious life and advances in various other forms of technology. biotechnology and so on. so there are a long list of reasons why i'm just not certain

if rod's right about where we are going overall. but in certain way is don't think it's necessarily matters that much because i think where we are right now is a place where many of the things he called for, the cultural practices he advocates, are necessary and useful and important no matter what happens in 10 or 20 or 30 years. think we wouldn't be at this moment in our politics and our common culture if we weren't living in a more fragmented, individualistic, and sort of post communeic landscape. we're living in an increasingly post tocquevillean united states in the sense that things tocqueville described about

being thews into the 1990s and 2000s, basic resilience of local community, local religious life, denominational competition as a spur to sort of bottom, up social order. those things we have taken for granted are fragmenting and falling apart, and in that landscape, it's a situation where trying to build resilient communities, resilient christian communities, religious communities, resilient communities, period. over part of the society for secular humanism you can have your own benedict option, but bill resilient community is an incredibly important answer to the challenges of our time. and i talked about this a little bit in the column i wrote this week, but one of the ways that it think about the usefulness of the benedict option is on the one hands, irthink that the sort

of extremism of some of rod's advocacy should hit home for people. there are people who should read -- i'll sort of mildly break "the new york times" rules and talk about one of hi fellow columnists. david brooks, my dear friend rode a column wrote about the book, sure seems like there's a lot of monks is in book. one response i have is that basically as if to say, well, yes, but the message of rod's book isn't that everyone should become a monk. it's that everyone from where they are perhaps should take one step in a more monastic direction and that is one important way to read the benedict option to says don't assume you need to revolutionize lighterage in your parish and pull your coweds off how school

and build an organic farm. assume you need to take one step for new, one step toureds a more benedictan way of life. the thing that occurred to me after writing that in my column, we don't have a surplus of monkness the united states. and it shouldn't be in the worst thing if lots of people read the book, which is filled with monks, and said, hey, maybe there's something there for me to think about but my wife has forbidden me to become a monk so that's for someone else. thank you. [applause] >> it's been special to be part of your book launch this week. in 2010, in the midwest i've jung debate about mighting are islamic victim ymca and

multiculturalism, chance lo angela merkel wetter to a gathering and made a provocative argument. we said, quote, we don't have too much islam. we have too little christianity. too few discussions of the christian view of mankind. germany, she argued, should view this moment as an opportunity to have more robust conversation about the, quote, the values that guide us and about our judeo-christian tradition. we have to stress this again with confidence. end quote. the rap in american christianity has been doesed score -- discussed for decades. willard writes more than any -- quote, more than any other single thing, the practical irrelevance of actual obedience to christ accounts to weakened effect of christianity in the world today with the increasing tendency to emfew says political and social action as the primary

way to serve god and also accounts for the practical irrelevance of christian faith to sanity and well-being. rod's analysis that americans who identify as christians in general do not have their lives rightly ordered and this disorder will nothing protect them in times of testing. it's true and important and of central concern. one of the gifts of rod's book is its utter confidence that it is possible to follow jesus today. and that we can order our lives to make it so. rod's willingness to share this conviction so boldly is a blessing and encourage: those who reduce rod's ideas to a political engagement are not dealing with the book honestly. its also incorrect to disassociate the benedict option from politics. rod is a political commentator, and a writer. who includes a chapter on politics in the benedict option

as well as repeated references to political and social circumstances. as rod mentioned today, the benedict option was introduced in his book about political conservatism. rod's sources motivations for pursuing the benedict option not in a timeless call to love the lord your god with your heart, soul and nypd but with the threat of extinction. again and again rod warns that modernivity poses an existential threat and that christians very survival is at stake and seems to be particularly primarily concerned with the survival of christians as a people, group, in western civilization. now, certainly god has usessed times of testing and trial to draw people closer to him. win common thread is an identification of that we are in a moment when christian's false hopes in politics and cultural dominance have failed them and disappointment with false hopes,

false idols -- but there's a danger ineing fear as motivation for the ben detective option. itself can lead people to seek chin community nor cultural security which it's kind of idol. these historical references, the context that rod lays us, around american christians' current situation works to confirm the existence and dominance of the threat of secularism progressivism and sexual liberation and by fully aofficialing the feeling shared bier men christians, the core feelings of marginalization, feeling that have fueled their political engagement. rod seems to want to redirect the passion of christians to feel embattled toward the buildings of stronger christian community. instead of using modern challenges to more simply point us toward ultimate truth and the

fact we ought to he living in a way that is shaped and driven with the faith and hope we have in christ, he benedict option use cultural circumstances themselves as the motivation for more intentional living. rod's chapter on politics reflects this upon as well. strongly rebuts those who view trump as a political savior by writing he is not a solution to problem of america holiday culture decline but a symptom of it which i agree with. indeed i've said before that after decades of liberals telling christians that american is not a christian nation, 2016 represented christians accept appearance of the claim and concession to utilitarian politics. rod right to view trump's win as a repeeve for christians on religious freedom issues particularly when it comed to conflict with sexual freedom. to the trump offers challenges to religious freedom in other contexts, including christians' ability to serve immigrants and the religious freedom of muslims

which instance tied to our own. one of the -- i want to get to other arguments and so i'll just state more briefly and perhaps discuss it late which is that rod's vision for political engagement is very much constrained by what he views as the possibilities of the political engagement that we might have. what his analysis lacks is a clear identification of the lack of christian formation that was northwest the religious right. that the cake wasn't completely baked before they got involved. that the failure of the religious right wasn't just because of the culture had gotten ahead of them. but actually, while -- for instance rod mentions how awfully christians treated lgbt americans as a regrettable mistake. as if was external to direction

of cultural and politics he describes. instead it's worth considering whether the left mile by more forth forgiving of our view offered sexuality if we had been more forgiving when we were dominant. it's worth considering l where the criminal sexualth think would be so scorn earned itch it had not bon wrongly invoked by some consecutive christian as justification for the aids crisis and the comeupans of the american fringe. this view of political history extends to the present. after a couple sentences of christians working with the g.o.p. on mainstreet economics and liberals on, quote, sex trafficking, poverty, aids and la ick,en quote, rod rites, quote, there is one cause that should receive all the attention oar to the dock christians have left, religious liberty. end quote. i agree with rod that religious liberty is if of utmost importance and i include i as one of two issue folks news final chain at the of my recent

book. worked on these issues intense live but i want to quickly raise two issues with such an exclusive focus. the first is that surely christians political area of concern can extend beyond religious freedom. certainly there are some constructive guidance in the benedict option particularly when it comes to sexual ethics and life and investing in institutions for clip formation will go longer air than political efforts that promises to overturn -- but this month, a budget was just released that would cut the social safety net and cuts meals on wheels busts increases military spending the congressional budget office says the current health plan proposed by congress and administration could force 24 million americans off health insurance. sure live the range of christian concern extends to these issues. the political witness of christians in national politics

should not be limited to simply advocating for our own personal interests just like another special interest gruesome benedict option does not tell the fill story about the state of religious freedom in this country. with the exception of the reprieve, it is odd and unnecessary burdensome there's no mention of relation freedom victory or mow holistic picture of the landscape so readers might have a view that is more knew anned and based in reality. so for instance, the benedict option includes an entire chapter on christian education and rod's religious free dome focuses rightly on institutions bus not mention the unanimous supreme court decision that aif i weres a faith-based schools right to hire in accordance with their face. this decision was notable because it would seem to suggest that the future of religious freedom is not at determined as rot suggests. this firing of a single female

teacher was found to be pregnant and in violation of the school's indigent ethics policies -- school's ethics policies and religious freedom won. the case was dad by a court that included president obama's supreme court nominees despite the fact that oobama administration arguedded to thecourt that a ministerial exception should not be cord. thecourt rejected the administration residents 0 argument and diso with open surprise the administration residents argument. justice kagan in particular, almost laughed at the solicitor general's argument. there are other examples of positive stories. the obama administration on the positive see if depend the national day of prayer in court and won, rejecting meet they not enter veep. after eight years of execs execd lobbies from the aclu that the administration would restrict groups that hire based on their faith from ereceiving federal grants the obama administration

is gone and that move has not been taken. the supreme court sided with religious freedom in hobby lobby and the little sisters of the poor. this week in washington, we w. warned of 16-inches on snowfall. supermarket aisles were empty. people stocked up on supplies in desperate panic. it took until just hours before the snow hit for it to become clear we would only receive about two to four inches of snow. the city would be strained. some people would lose power and a cost but the challenge would be overcome. it's a good thing people didn't go underground, convinces that's utter desolation was inevitable and a great flood was coming ought my bet eating spam in a storm shuffle or an arc instead of helping shovel their neighbor's driveway. which is the primary critique of the benedict option. which if while rod draws from charles taylor from the analysis, he nexts one of taylor residents principle conclusions which is that this secular age

immigration not 0 a time of the deamination of the secular but a time of cross-pressure. if you take our age to be one of inevitably victorious, aggressive secularism we mall. ...

christians cannot offer what they do not have and as rob writes the church admission is not political success, but for fidelity. faithfulness. we seek these things not because of cultural circumstances for the calls to follow jesus ascends time to the benedict option stripped of its cultural baggage drawing on the movement of god in history rather than the history of western civilization is an option for all orthodox church christians, guided not by legalism, but one of the models explains only that which is to the benefit and flourishing of the individual in the community in drawing near to god. despite the challenges the kingdom of god is available to us.

many of us in this room were found by god even in this period that rob described tonight and god do where to find us. later in the introduction of the divine conspiracy christians still hear jesus say, whoever hears these words of mine and does them is like those intelligent people who build their houses upon rock. how life-giving it would be if their understanding of the costs will allow them to reply, i will do this and find out how and devote my life to it. this is the best life strategy i have heard of and go off to their fellowship and into their daily life to learn how to live in his kingdom as jesus indicated was best. there is nothing wrong with american christianity that would not be fixed by a american christians becoming more transformed into the image of the christ whose name we claim as our own. insofar as this benedict option

is what i fully endorse that i consider myself a cold labor in promoting and in which i believe will be considered a great gift to us all and a blessing to the nation. so, thank you for this book and your willingness to openly share and discuss with us this evening and over the last decade. [applause]. >> there is a time for yet rod, you can give response and then we will later get into the weeds a little more. >> okay. about the best a writer can hope for is intelligent bighearted readers who given honest critique of one's work and that's what i have been given by my friends tonight, so i want to thank them for that. let me quickly go through some things. i know we are running a little late and on the question of

extremism, flattery o'connor said when the world's death we have to shout and i admit and i completely own that some of the rhetoric i use in the benedict option especially in the beginning is alarmist and a strong, but i am trying to shout the wake up at church that is not paying attention. last night in washington, after we did a trinity form even i was talking with a senior administrator at eight christian college and i asked him, is it just me or do you see a lack of engagement and awareness among christian congregations about the threats to religious liberty and christian institutions and what they faith and he said it's not just you and told me the story of what they had to go through in california last year with state trying to really punish orthodox-- small orthodox

christian colleges. he said it had not been for the black church of los angeles they don't know what would've happened. he said this was it existential threat in this christian college administrator said this is one of the great bizarre mysteries of christian public life today, completely disengaged of the local church from these various serious threats. so, if i have exaggerated at all in this book, but helps to wake people up and say we have a problem here and we had to get engaged, then i am happy to own that. i think that ross is right that we believed him know if this will be a complete belgian style cultural collapse without the great beer. [laughter] >> or something like what russell moore talks about in his book "onward" about the burning away of just mere cultural christianity.

if it is what russell moore said , that i'm grateful for that point because your cultural christianity tends to serve or has served as more vaccination against taking the gospel seriously than support of the gospel and i'm happy for that to change. on the other hand, if this country moves beyond even notional diligence to christian teaching christian precepts that we are serious trouble on life issues for example euthanasia, abortion and that is something we can take lightly. i really agree with father joseph was the second benedict of the benedict option in my view who predicted in 1969 that the future of the church would be one where we are poor, weaker , far fewer of us in the west, but the people who remain will be those who really believe in the gospel and if they act as crated minorities to transform the world as people see the

difference christ has made in our lives, that's what i hope the future will be an ongoing on -- i would like it if christianity was not declined. i think if we look at the statistics and they are pretty serious, but i think the benedict option ideally will energize local churches and christians and groups evangelical, protestants, catholic and orthodox to be creative minorities. as to michael's-- let me see i have even more raw things. i will be very clear. that's it. some of michael's comments i think angela merkel has made a historical error in her migration policies, but surely chancellor merkel is correct that the answer to the rise of islam in europe ought to be first and foremost of more serious engagement rediscovery of the christian faith by the christian and formally christian peoples of europe.

on the matter of whether or not i'm being too extremist again in my analysis, i understand that it makes people uncomfortable and it's possible that i have gone too far in this, but i have to say how do you account for these statistics? how do you answer what christian smith has found about the collapse of any kind of real christian orthodoxy within the church? how do you account for the statistics on the millennial's and the rise of the nuns? this is serious. this is a crisis and if you are raising kids in this culture, you have to pay close attention and wonder how your kids will hold onto the faith in what you need to do in your family and community to make this happen given how influential the group is on teenagers. i do believe that religious liberty is paramount importance with so much else depending on it.

if we lose the right to run our own institutions according to what we know and believe is true, especially educational institutions then we have lost a lot more than is apparent to many of us right now, but i did say in the passage michael quoted that christians should engage in other political causes also. i think he has a point that perhaps i may have been to precise and my wording. i believe that we should prioritize the five for religious liberty, but not to vote ourselves exclusively and i have to condemn the fake media for distorting my words. [laughter] >> it's sad, sad. [laughter] >> there is good news on the legal front, better news than i indicated in my book like hosanna versus hobby lobby, but i think the broader point stands that as the country grows more secular especially among the elite they will be less and less

appreciation of the importance of religion and religious poverty to american life. a christian professor at an elite american law school to be most christians in america will be shocked by how utterly ignorant and even hostile most of the law professors at our senior institutions are to the practice of religion. they just don't get it and this is ultimately because they are the ones training the future american elites and future members of the establishment, they are the ones who will be deciding during the rest of my lifetime the future of religious liberty in america, so thank you for your comments and i'm happy to hear more from our friends on this side. >> thank you, rod. jackie, we look forward to hear what you have to say. >> thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to be here. and to think about what i think

is a very important book. i do think this is a particularly telling time right now in our culture and for me, i think that the original benedict option is asked 42 through 47. i want to talk about poor things quickly. one of that original model, a bit about the question of, is there a danger in rods book of completing western culture, western civilization with christianity? then, the role of the black church around the issue of religious freedom and finally talking a little bit about my own experience with responding to the mandate, original band-- mandate for benedict option. act 42 to 47 reads they devoted themselves to the apostles

cheat-- teaching fellowship with the breaking of bread and prayer. everyone is filled with amazement at the wonders and signs performed by the apostles. all the believers were together and had everything in common. they sold property and possession to give to anyone who had needs. every day they continue to meet together in the temple courts and broke bread in their home and work together with the glad and sincere hearts praising god and enjoying the favor of all people in the lord added to their number daily those who are being saved. this is really the model for christian life that we should be during the things that are outlined here, devotion to prayer, scripture and fellowship and i do believe that our churches have fallen far short of this and there has been much cultural christianity practiced in the church is weak as a

result of not having taken this model seriously. i remember among the graduates of harvard going to the harvard christian fellowship and being bewildered. i was a new christian and i thought christianity was supposed to turn your life upside down and reprioritize your life. here were these young people, it was warm milk and cookies. it was business as usual. it was really much of what rod described in his book, the concern with consumerism and a comfortable life and getting a harvard degree and going on to being extremely comfortable financially. the other thing that is here that i-- a promise of signs. in our church we take seriously the belief that god has the power to heal, work miracles even in the 21st century. it is something that is found in

few churches, another thing i think we fall short on. it says the believers were together and had everything in common. do we care for each other that way? instead, we lead as rod described our lives separated from each other, not knowing our neighbors and very often church you're looking at your watch. it's one hour and one minute when will it end, okay? church is not supposed to be over an hour. what's going on here? there's no time for fellowship work connection or investing in each other's lives, caring for each other radically as these people did because they met every day and if anyone was indeed they were ready to sell it they had to take care of each other. and that i believe is the original benedict option. i think, though-- i celebrate

this book. i celebrate this book because it holds up for me what is really the model for christianity, what is really taught in the bible and which has been overlooked, but i want to point where i am concerned and that is with feeling that there is a conflation of christianity with western culture. christianity was born in a middle eastern europe. only two books of the bible were written by people who were actually european-- one man was actually european and much of the financial-- foundational early christianity took place in north africa and moved from africa into europe. people like arjun's, the early church pointed to the importance of purists, but so much was rooted in north africa and christianity will survive the

fall of the west took its god's work, not the work of the west and today according to a 2011 report christianity is true that global religion. quoting them, in 1910 about two thirds of the world's christians lived in europe. today, one in every four christians live in sub-saharan africa and about one in eight is found in asia and the pacific. the share of the population that is christian climbed from 9% in 1910 to 63% in 2010. so, they go on to say christianity today unlike a century ago is truly a global state. i think it's really important as we talk about the benedict option in the crisis that is facing the us and western culture that we take care not to alienate that section of the

population that is not white. a growing proportion of that population, which i think does not necessarily-- i would like to give my kids this book to read, but i don't think they would warm to it because i think it's not written to a broad enough audience. i think that perhaps one strategy to be explored is to draw on the dynamics holy spirit filled strength of the church in africa and in south america with revivals in our creaky white churches here in the united states. the only thing i want to say about religious freedom, rod pointed to the role of the presiding bishop of the word of god in christ plagued in the threat to christian colleges in california. happens to be my husband's bishop. i just want to say this is really important because a lot of millennial's see the claim to religious freedom as an excuse for discrimination. you pointed to the fact that when we should have been

championing the cause of people who feel things like that often really divided and painful lives instead we condemn them and young millennial's project us as a result of that. they see the church as a source of the problem, but black people , we are the ones in this country who suffer the most previous forms of discrimination we are the ones who continue to be harmed by structural racism, massive heart duration and was our faith that inspired our and sensors to lead-- sorry. is that my time? thank you. thank you very much. that really inspired us to lead the civil rights movement and it's so essential if we stand up and talk about religious freedom , we have a level of credibility that is unparalleled

in the rest of the church because to as the white church is associated in the minds of millennial's and others with racism rather than with championing the cause of the poor, so not much time for my personal experience and i would say the writings were powerful and influencing my husband when we were undergraduates at harvard, really turning him onto this original benedict option. especially his book the early christians and why we live in and he was struck by the authentically radical character of the buddha understanding the christian faith and their sincerity and actually carrying it out. as a result, several of us were members of something called-- traveled down to connecticut and saw the community in action and we were struck by. we weren't rich-- weren't ready

to retreat, so we went back to build this community in the inner city in boston, but drawing strength from what we had seen. the model of having shared work that would bind us together. the model of a rich spiritual life, sharing one another's burden both spiritually, emotionally and economically. the model of spending time together of really being that christian village that rod writes about to model a simple living of not embracing a consumerist culture. i'm grateful to the role played in shaping our spiritual lives as we really challenged trying to do something like this among the poor. people hadn't yet made it and it's even harder to resist consumerist culture if you've

never had it. it's out there and everyone else has it and you've never had it, so those are some challenges we face and the whole question to how you really educate the next generation, which rod raises in his book, i think it adds a challenging piece of what we face. i'm grateful for the book and the chance to talk about it and really to encourage people to embrace this original benedict option. [applause]. >> that's great, jackie. it resonates a lot of what you said resonates in my heart. i'm not a scholar. i'm not a public speaker. i'm actually pharmacists.

i know more about drugs than either of those two things and kangaroos. i gave up that career to follow jesus as a brother. i come at tonight from that angle, more about that later. and wanted to start thinking rod for starting this important conversation about how we can as christians more faithfully follow jesus, which is what it's all about. it's encouraging that many people are paying attention to this book. at the same time, seems to me that the most recent reaction to the ideas sort of a hollow protest about withdraw in favor of engagement. this is the made-- main point rod is making and the reverse of mine own experience and moving out faith. so, the first point i would like

to make is this, building eight communal church along the lines rod suggests allows christians to engage more and more meaningful with our fellow human beings. assimilation to the ways of the world is as dangerous as jesus tells us it is. drayer's great in pointing to this, but the stronger the center and that is jesus the more daring our outreach to the world can be. my own life is an illustration of this. for the past 30 years my wife, linda and i have been members of a christian communal church in a baptist tradition that is almost 100 years old. we share all things, and in the spirit of the first church in jerusalem. many of the staff you saw at the

book tables and welcoming you are from our church community. i believe that we have been able , my wife and i, to engage more deeply and more broadly with society and if that we had remained as a private family. linda and i are both farm kids from minnesota. we grew up in what nowadays would be called a dysfunctional family, alcoholic father in my case. abusive situation my wife's case our families were normally christian, culturally christian you take. i grew up lutheran, my wife grew up catholic. faith in jesus really didn't mean anything to us. by our mid- 20s we were well on the road to conventional mend-- middle-class life. house, two kids, two cars come in to and very unhappy.

something was radically missing. through a bible study we came to faith in jesus. later, as we read in the book of acts we were struck by the witness of the early church. the realization that they shared everything, sold their possessions. and they worshiped, eight together and it actually shocked us because we hadn't ever taken that in. acts tells this was the result of a movement of repentance and the coming of the holy spirit. this excited as and drove us in a search for life of community. so, we started living in community with a few other families and this lasted about five years. it was a challenging and exciting time for us and we continued searching. then, we ran across the writings of everhart arnold, the founder.

his depth of understanding, of living for jesus and the kingdom answered many of our questions and in his book, why would living community, he writes community life for us is an inescapable must. we must live in community because we are compelled by the same spirit that has led to community time and time again in since the days of biblical prophecy and early christianity. those words through me today as much as they did 30 years ago when i first read them. so, we came in 1987. our life since then has been one of the contents engagement with every imaginable segment of society. i will describe some of this, not to sing the praises, we have plenty of weaknesses and anyone who has visited us would know that, but to show it community life makes possible.

for the past 17 years when and not have lived in australia. we founded a community down there with other members. you might think that is the ultimate withdraw. we lived in rural australia, and there is not many people in rural australia. there are many more kangaroos. in the first place, there was simply neighborly contact that happens with the locals. there were barbecues, christmas carols, invitations to each other's homes. our community members babysat. we did home care for older lee shut-ins. we did home repairs. this extended to my work as a police chaplain within the police force. other community members are on the fire brigade, emergency medical services and a host of other outreach. as part of stewardship for the

earth collaborated with local farmers in sustainable agricultural techniques, which have made a measurable difference in our area. our community partners with local charities as well as organizations like world vision, save the children. our young people volunteer in crisis situations and we support them financially. we literally hosted thousands of guests in australia from all over southeast asia. from everything from hipsters to federal politicians to local community leaders leading up to a very unforgettable moment this year when one of their elders blessed the side of a house we were building. linda and i have visited church communities all over australia, tasmania, new zealand, thailand and south korea. would we have done as much as a

solitary nuclear family? i doubt it. there certainly are individuals who achieve this level of connectivity just by force of personality, but this brings me to my second point, society and especially christian society needs to create space for the week and broken as well as those with external talent. only in a communal church can the old and the very young hurting military veterans, disabled, mentally ill, ex- addicts, or simply annoying people-- [laughter] >> like myself find a place where they can be healed and accepted and once more contribute to life. i share common meal every day with brothers and sisters that answer to each of these descriptions. those who preach engagement often fail to think how we as christians can actually bear each other's burden with

economic, medical, emotional outside of strong communities. where's the love any engaging the world if we don't have time for the emotional fragile neighbor. pope francis got something right in speaking of the church as a field hospital. onto my third point, building strong communal churches actually isn't option. it's our calling. my construction criticism of rod is actually his not taking his own proposal seriously enough. the rule of saint benedict is wonderful. it's wise and is an important document, but why stop at benedict when we could go back to the original source of christianity? christians living in full community is how the church began. it's the only way i know of where jesus is teaching in the sermon on the mound become a practical reality and the early

church was far more radical than anything rod has so far proposed early christians as jackie said turned the world upside down. they shared everything in common. actually, the rule of saint benedict has very strong words to say against private property. they evangelize the whole known world. they refused to participate in violence of any kind including self-defense, military service, abortion and the death penalty. they modeled a new epic of sexuality and family life than on her equal debuted-- dignity of god before many women. once more, within three centuries had revolutionized the great roman cultural and society. no one can accuse the early christians of withdraw. this is not a lie for the fainthearted.

it requires all or nothing, full-time lifetime commitment. what t.s. eliot called the condition of complete simplicity requiring nothing less than everything. there won't be enough to apply aspects to the relative benedict that happen to dovetail nicely into our private middle-class american lifestyle. how many of us are like the rich young man who could not accept jesus' invitation because he was able to part with his possessions. yet, the early church did not come into existence by means of moral efforts or legalistic rules, but because of the joy of following jesus. linda and i would live in church community whether society was going to pieces or not. for me, the life i live is a calling from jesus and the best way that i have found to follow him and i don't think this way

is just for traditional christians or the most radical among us. it's actually the good news in the new life that jesus offers and wants for all people work as rod put it ihis final chapter fittingly titled the benedict decision, we find others like us in communities, schools for the service of the lord. we do this not to save the world , but for no other reason that we love him and no that we need a community and a order way of life to fully serve him. amen to that, rod. thank you. [applause]. >> thank you both so much for your kind words and constructive criticism. i had to say, jackie, when you

are talking about the church taking too long. orthodoxy will cure you of that. @presay let us complete our prayer to the lord and you know that's time to settle in and we will be here for a while. i appreciate what you said about there being a danger of complaining christianity with western culture. i think you are completely correct. christianity is a global religion and in my last 10 years of being a turned orthodox christian-- christian i been made more aware of the fullness of christianity, the global fullness of christianity. in fact, as you say christianity is booming in the global south. a lot of us conservative christians in the west look to africa and faithful african christians to re- evangelize europe and i would like to give a shout out to cardinal sarah. we live, i live, you live, we

all live in the west. the lord promises as at the gates of hell will not prevail against the church, but he did not promise as the gates of hell would not prevail against his church in the west. that's up to all of us, christians who live here right now. we can take part and example from our brothers and sisters in the lord who live in the global south, in asia, the middle east who are bearing such witness to christ right now, but we have to make that work right here. please don't think that the faith is only limited to the west. i would not say that all. in fact, when to say i encourage my fellow christians in the west to immerse themselves in the prayer life and wisdom of the eastern orthodox church. saint john paul ii called it that we have so much to learn from each other and to be honest, we have lots we had from

the older will charge a code church's have a lot to learn from their evangelical churches, which has been a great blessing for me as i have written about the benedict option is getting to know evangelicals and to learn their strengths, weaknesses and enjoy the friendship. i really do believe we have to work together. that brings us to your comments about the black church. i didn't feel that when i was writing the benedict option that i have the moral authority to appropriate the experience of stroke of the black church in my own cause. as someone who grew up in the deep south as a white man, i know that the black church had to deal with lynchings, firebombings, terrorism in a condition that is completely unknown to the broader church in america 2017. i did not feel rights in comparing the experience of the black church to what we are dealing with today, historically

lets me say that it's my hope that if the benedict option catches on that there will be black writers who arise who can talk about with moral authority and experience about what the black church has to teach the broader church today about the benedict option. sister, i hope you write that book. similarly, i would to say that the benedict option is just a general concept. it's not a 20-point program. it's an orientation towards our history is christians in the future and the benedict option will if it becomes developed will look different for roman catholics and it will far eastern orthodox than it will pour evangelicals your car friend jake is in the audience tonight, the editor of mere orthodoxy, one of the most important evangelical blocks out there and he has been the greatest exponent and explainer

and evangelist for the benedict option among evangelicals. if the benedict option takes off, someone needs to give this man a book contract because he knows how to make this live in the evangelical idiom. this is going to require all of us to come together in the church, all the faithful christians to work across denominational lines, not ignores that nomination will distinctives, but an accumulation of the trenches. in which we know what we are facing and we went to help each other be more faithful right here, right now. i appreciate what you had to say about this important conversation. that's why when to start, conversation. i don't how the answers. i need to learn from the black church myself. i need to learn for my roman catholic friends, more deeply for my own orthodox tradition and evangelical friends because

we are all in this together. that is one thing i'm absolutely convinced of. we are all in this together and we half-- the stronger the center is, as you said the more daring our outreach can be. that is such a beautiful encapsulation of the benedict option. frederica, the wife of the founder of the community-- catholic community in italy, she told me-- i asked her what you say to people that say you are withdrawing because they live in normal apartments, go to their normal catholic parishes, but they come together in community and their center for prayer, for the mass, first grip sure study, four starts, communal gardening, fountain meals at least once a week, so what you say to people who say you are withdrawing from the outward community and she said that's not true. we do engage the community and accept charity and other things, but we and our children can more

confidently and meaningfully engage the world because we know who we are. so, this is about strategic withdraw from the world, but it's for the sake of serving the world as authentic christians. the testimony inspires and delights me, frankly took you and your community have a gift to share with the church and i hope and pray, peter, our friend peter will write a book about the benedict option and again i'm advocating for everyone's books, but these are books i want to read that the whole church states to know. finally, he spoke of the joy of following jesus and how that is what attracts people and i think this is ultimately the only really effective witness we will have for the world today. my old friend pope benedict the 16th set on a couple of occasions the greatest arguments the church has for itself are

not as syllogism, propositions, but the beauty it produces and the saints it produces. in other words, beauty and goodness. these are things that can speak to the hearts of a world that has grown indifferent to reason, to rational argument. when you are confronted as i was as a 17-year old wandering into the cathedral in france and suddenly being cracked over the head by the immensity of god there in the cathedral of stone and glass and awareness. i did not walk out of their christian, but i walked out of there knowing there was something greater than myself and i had been in his presence in the cathedral. that is the kind of thing that we speak to people or being in the presence of men and women who give everything, sacrificially to serve the poor, to serve the needy, to serve the lord. it-- this is the sort of thing, these are the doors through which people can walk that will eventually get to the truth.

the truth that is jesus christ. if you're not joyful, you're not doing it right and i thank you for reminding us about. [applause]. >> so many rich themes in this conversation so far and it would be-- it would take an evening to pursue any one of them. we are getting down to time and we only have a few more minutes together come about it wanted to in the spirit of the conversation that rod was mentioning, get a chance to each of you on the panel to direct one question and in the spirit of the discipline that rod also calls for it his books, we will restrict ourselves to one minute response. just throw things out there that we can argue about afterwards because we need to continue these conversations. this is what this evening is all about.

[inaudible] >> this is totally unfair, but we will do it anyway. ross, which you have something to throw out there to start this off? >> i mean, there is not a one minute reply to this question, so i suppose it's unfair, but i think it's worth one of the objections is to give praise to rod's argument is not about sort of politics and engagement and so on, but about the problem of community, the problem that the building blocks we are talking about can turn toxic in their ways and that i can retrieve individual families, but it can be true of churches, communities and so on as well. i just wonder in thinking about the benedict option, how we think about sort of its dark side, the sort of cultic overly cloistered sort of hermetically sealed cited maybe it's a

question for rod because not precisely this way, but rod is living the benedict option before he wrote the benedict option. he sort of this inspiring story of the man went back to louisiana, his home town, back to his family to up his family, this orthodox church and those of us who read his blog religiously as it were nose both of those projects in different ways fell on hard times, so i guess my question for you is how did your own experience of sort of struggle and difficulty in communal life in forum how you think about purging the benedict option on the struggling rest of us? >> thank you for that. >> one minute. [laughter] >> i think we have to be very very important not to expect more out of community bank can deliver. the last utopia we ended with adamant keyboard thrown out of the garden and we have to be

extremely careful not to idolize community. if you read my book, you will see that i had to ask the lord broke me in a profound way and allowed me to break on my own idol worship of family and community, so i could react more humbly and he healed of a lot of disorders in my own heart, so i keep this very much in my mind. i was also someone who was bullied in high school, leaving it in a small wonderful town and i'm always instinctively afraid of the mop because of that and i worry about the mob. of that said, the downside of community does not obviate the good sides, websites and our need for it. i think we have to be realistic and be careful that use of authority. in the book, benedict option, at

the quotes in the duck-- interviewing a formally catholic women who is an atheist now. she said when she and her siblings were younger their parents took them out to live in a rural part of the country and they were militant, paranoid, fearful catholics awaiting the three days of darkness and saw impurity everywhere and demons behind everything. everyone of those kids when they were 18 and out of the house through their faith away. edition woman told me just make sure your readers know that you can take this too far destroy everything you want to protect and i think this counsel is wise , any of us who want to undertake the benedict option. >> so close to a minute, rod. [laughter] >> michael. >> well, i guess i'm just interested in the tension between just take one step and

if you don't take all that it's useless, which is sort of this polar. i was interested in rod addressing that tension. is a sort of-- is your hope that people take this as far as they feel willing to take it or you you think there is the value increasing as people take on the holistic sort of vision of the rule? >> that's a great point. that tension and as someone who has had a pretty rocky spiritual past, pilgrimage through wi-fi up come to appreciate how fragile we are and how fragile it is, how our ideas can lead us

to very dark places that may not survive. i think that we have got to keep in mind that we are on a pilgrimage, our whole spiritual life is a pilgrimage together and we will grow stronger as we continue on in life through repentance, prayer, fasting, attending the liturgy and through serving the world-- board and serving others. if i thought that you had to do it all or don't even try, i would find that discouraging. i have found in my own christian walk as i have been led into deeper repentance and deeper prayer, i have found it easier to do certain things that i once thought impossible as a christian. my priest and st. francis, father matthew herrington when i was suffering at the pit of my despair and physical sickness from the anxiety over the struggle with mild family, he

gave me a very strict prayer rule, orthodox prayer rule that committed me to an hour a day of prayer. i thought it would been easier to walk up a mountain because my mind is so busy and racing, but i did out of obedience. i found it so hard to do, but after two or three months of real struggle with this i began to notice my heart growing more still and i believe the holy spirit used the stillness to establish my heart to lead to my ultimate healing, but i had to start with doing one hard thing, committing to it in our day doing the jesus prayer for an hour day took i found that to be the greatest challenge i could possibly do at that time in my own weakness and now it seems pretty easy to me, but there are other spiritual challenges, because as the benedictines teach us conversion of life is the lifelong thing.

it requires your whole life. >> so, i understand that he see christianity as a global religion and you are concerned about the fate of christianity in the west, but i still am struggling with what seems to me a tone that doesn't reflect sensitivity to that in the book. i'm also concerned because the united states right now continues to be really racially segregated, communities especially in the northeast and the south, less so in the west and southwest. in addition to that there is growing segregation by income. as we move into community that's more locally -based, how do we guard against increasing this lack of understanding of other cultures, in particular on the

racial front. how to we avoid actually reinforcing class segregation connect thank you for that. im really inspired by the work of my fred russell moore, the southern baptist leader on racial reconciliation. i think this is important work, gospel work is something that ought to concern us all. one thing that i would say, though, is it is a problem i ran into a my own hometown with one of the protestant churches there. they had a new minister command, a white church to push them all that you have to be integrated and invite african-americans to church with us. in his intentions that were just , but at the same time he did not recognize that the african-americans in our small southern town had history going back to the slave days to the black church had its own traditions and as a black friend

of mine said i went to the white church one time and you will never get me back in there. it's not a racial thing. it's this was not how he had been raised it to worship. they were much more pentecostal in the way he worshiped and that's okay, but it does not give us an excuse to stand aside and never fellowship with each other across racial lines. the class thing i think is enormous problem. gd fans-- jd fans has awoken a lot of us who live in a middle-class of bubble to the problems of class and how little many of us at least in the white church had to say to our brothers and sisters who are working class or poor and struggling with problems that we scarcely conceive of and who don't turn to the church for help. i think this will be an enormous area of creativity to be the creative minority. we have got to figure out how to reach out to the working class of the poor, but at the same time i think the journey of a thousand miles of starts with

the first step. if we think we have to have the whole thing plotted out and somehow we can include every single person before you take the first step in the benedict option, then we will never get started to people and talk to me about possible christian schools and a champion in the book and said is this homeschool something only for the middle class. yes, it might be right now because often you have to have one parent at home to do the homeschooling or maybe you need income to afford eight classical christian school, but that doesn't mean we should not try these things. i think churches need to redirect their time and efforts towards expanding the opportunity of classical christian schooling and homeschooling to the children of the poor and working poor and working-class, but we have to start somewhere and we should not let the perfect be the enemy or the good enough for right now as ross was writing about in his call him.

>> you know, rod, i agree very much with you that we are all on a journey. linda and i took one step at a time and a stumbled around for years and were led into community. i would be very interested in your comments on how the gospel calls us to give up everything for jesus and how that plays into our very middle-class american culture. not everyone is middle-class, obviously, but how does that play"? >> that always has to be at the forefront of our minds and is an orthodox christian we are in lent which means no meat, no

dairy and if you follow the fast fully and when you first start out as orthodox and you take on the fasting that have been part of the church's tradition for many many centuries it seems terrible. is like how can i do without meat for 40 days? how can i do without dairy? but, you do it because that's what we do. we'll be in the whole community does it and once you learn get used to the fasting that if you don't deny yourself small things we will find it impossible to deny ourselves larger things. i'm not saying fasting or lent or wednesdays and fridays is the same thing as sacrificing your life for christ, which we are all ultimately positive if he gets to that, but it has to start somewhere and i talking about about a practice that the entire church needs to relearn. i have grown so much spiritually.

i'm a comfortable person and i love to eat and drink as everyone can see and i lead a very countable middle-class existence. it is hard for me to learn-- i know especially during lent that is what i need to do an end i have so much to repent of. i think if we met church, the broader church will return to a set of schism, come look and see what we do in the eastern orthodox church and how these practices can be adopted for the entire church, the practice of fasting, which our lord did as we know in the early church did in the entire church did for many centuries. this can be if first step in training ourselves to subjective reading to the lord and as i said in the talk, we have to ask ourselves how did shadrach, the shack and abednego have the courage to stand there is a you can take everything away from us even our life, but we will not abandon the lord. think this is one way but the

history of the church, the history of the martyrs, early martyrs, persecuted church all the way up to the current history being made every day of the persecuted church in the middle east and asia and elsewhere, that has something to say to us. one of the disciplines i've done with my children is read them from the writings and interviews of father george, an orthodox priest who is imprisoned for many years by the romanian communist and along with others, catholics and protestants and a lutheran pastor who was tortured by the communist or made to suffer unspeakable torture for christ. when he came out of prison and came to america and talked about this before his death and i read stories that he tells about keeping the faith under torture and imprisonment and i read them to my children and age-appropriate levels. nothing gruesome, but i tell them this man lived today and my dear friend fredricka who is an

orthodox priest wife today in suburban baltimore and mouse are spiritual father. he lived in america until he died a few years ago and i tell my kids this is how close it is. you know ms. fredricka. this was her spiritual father. this man lived this with living memory and if he can do this how to define the love to do this and suffer and not give up the gospel even under conditions we cannot imagine and that's what we have to learn, kids. we can imagine what it's like elsewhere in this is what christians are living all over the world and have done for the most of the history of the church. so, can by telling these stories , bishop, and by instituting practices like something as simple as fasting, these can help repair ourselves and plow the land for the seeds of the gospel, the true gospel of giving up everything for christ. >> amen,.

[applause]. >> so, thank you, rod. thank you to each of your the panel. this has been a wonderful evening and thank you to all that have come to joy as. it's been wonderful to spend this time together. i hope we continue these conversations in the days and weeks to come. this is important stuff and maybe eight-- may we all further one another on in love and good deeds. thank you for joining us. i think the panel and rod once more. [applause]. [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] >> in 2016: oxford university press travel to libraries around the world and ask librarians what was their favorite book. here's a look at some of those titles. north america, the titles included stanford university practice of medicine professor abraham national bestseller, cutting for stone. ..

.... .... >> good aftern e