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society members that we have here. your support makes it possible for us to deliver consistent programming for the low-cost of free to the public all year round. before we turn to the program i will ask everyone to silence your cell phones and no flash photography or video. before we get started and before i have a chance to introduce you to our panelists i want to bring out kevin young the director of the schaumburg center. [applause]. we are very excited to have a adrian here and all of you here. it's a good-looking crowd out there. she told you all the good news that we have national historic landmark status which we are delighted by. we have the black power show up right now and almost done with our renovation which has been going on over a year. we really are excited for the

new spaces to have you come to warm them up for us. there is a moment ago when i was get a may be be seen i am tonya hopkins and conduct some of the interview who had known for a while i will turn over the state to adrian and tonya and welcome again. thank you. [applause]. let me introduce you to our panelists. we all know some of those. today is a culinary historian who was lectured around the country. the first book the surprising story of an american cuisine one play at a time was published in august of 2013. soul food is one of the 2014 james beard foundation book award for reference and scholarship.

he is a certified kansas city barbecue society judge. leading us through tonight's conversation as tiny hopkins and his career began in marketing is a qualitative researcher. they fulfilled the unique perspective and let her do all things commentary. the multimedia platform for which she also provides a historic and contemporary consulting and content. james hemming foundation. in a wine specialist inspired

dinners including the june 2016 house event. the 1790s reconciliation dinner. james hemmings who helped set the table for america's future. please welcome adrian miller and tony hopkins. everybody knows my bags. it's been a while. the first time i met this brother-in-law was at brother y'all was at a southern food weight conference. if you remember when i tell this part. he gets up and he tells a story i'm all excited i think it's my first one. fifteen years ago.

and i'm like unlike what is this brother to talk about and he tells a story about the long loss delicacy of opossum. it turns out that was great. actually refer to that. i give you props. one hundred years ago that was the dish. people are looking for long loss so food recipes. tonight were talking about the latest book which i actually had it my security back here the president's cabinet untold stories of african-americans who had our families from washington to the obama's. you worked in the white house and you said you didn't even want go to the kitchen.

i'm the can to do that if i'm not supposed to be someplace i'm not gonna go. as someplace you should wander around. i worked on something called the president's presidents initiative for one america. it was an outgrowth of his initiative on race. if we actually talk to one another and listened we might find out that we have a lot more in common than what supposedly divides us. that went on for about a year and half. the board that ran that recommended that there be an ongoing office in the white house. >> when you got the idea to do this book this book was eight years in the making and really what inspired me to do it was unemployment at the change of

an administration what happens if you're at a political appointee. i knew someone a friend of mine who was at georgetown law school called me up while i was practicing law school. i got to the point i was thinking spirituals in my office. she calls me and she explains and describes the initiative for one america. i was the have of the search committee and only submitted my name. we get to the end of the administration is an appointee you write out your letter of resignation. the job market was soft at that time.

i was watching a lot of daytime television. i thought to myself i should read something. and that book was southern food at home on the road in history. in the netbook the tribute to the african-american achievement has yet to be written. the book was about ten years old. he said no one had really taken on that project. so that led to my first book on selfhood. i discovered these african-americans who had cooked for our presidents. he was can write a history of african-american cooking and he talks about some of these presidential authors. one of the area -- earliest sources i've got is a photocopy of something i typed

up. if you dig into that. or also washington the actually didn't have a lot of work related to food. the whole extensive a study on the black eaters of philadelphia . and you touch on that and how that was a pathway of new money for black people for wealth and status in class. it still trickles into today. it's interesting that nobody had done the piece about the african-american accomplishments. there is so much connection and even this book. it doesn't look that thick. it's packed full with stories and people all the different

people who are involved. it could be another 50 bucks. written from the stories in here. the thing about the presidential history is a lot of it is fragments because in the 18th and 19th centuries and even into the 20th century they were looked down upon. servitude positions were to something that they were born to do. and a lot of the historical sources the only get references to negro cooks or colored cooks. it is remarkable that we see a person's full name and some of the sources. cooking was not the glamorous thing that it is today. it is one of the few professions that

african-americans could pursue an excel at with out garnering a lot of white backlash. it's also very clear that they are feeling our food. you talk about times when they been fired. the skill and talent development to the amazing black cooks. there are cooks who are scratch cooks who had more of the improvisational approach. and just can go with it. and then there are cooks that

means putting everything in its place. it's probably your parents or something like that. i don't measure. you just head to watch them. i'm one of the cooks that i have to head everything candace set out they are properly measured. in my approach for this i just decided to show all the key ingredients to presidential foodways. and what deals with the present directly what involves people around the president and then what are the things beyond the president's control. it was a very detailed story filled piece of work. just skim it. it's really fascinating.

any other scratch cooks. i tried it's much smaller. you have some of that with libido slides. you're seen some snippets from some of the interesting personalities that i collected in this book just real quickly the first% you saw was samuel francis. you probably saw that picture and thought that's a lot like a white dude. quite a few of his defendants believe that he was biracial and that he have african heritage. i show hercules who was the in

slave cook. who actually escaped before him. i was wondered if this was inspired by the other. what's interesting about this. it's actually a portrait portrait in madrid spain. and the title is a cook for george washington. and the painter is gilbert stuart. what's interesting about that portrait is that outfit that he has is one that would be one bag european chef and american chef at that time. knowing how vindictive george washington was. you read the letters of the reaction in the extent to which he tries to get hercules after he escapes. you can do that song frozen

called let it go. it makes sense that hercules goes overseas is probably the safest thing for him to do. he actually made money selling scraps. i have come across that. the story as you know there are stories and then in their facts and history. he was such a great cook. the piece about the scraps what was that about a lot of chefs they would give them the liberties it to sell the scraps. people would use them to make candles. this brother is cooking so good. in terms of what he was selling.

after he was done working he would here just put on that blue suit. it's is a whole lot about nonetheless he was trying to be free. you touch on the happy slave. to make people believe that it wasn't so bad. he still was like i'm out. the clothing was a clue but nobody knows for sure where he ended up. the interesting thing, first of all when washington brings hercules to philadelphia to be his cook he does us where he

was a feeling her cooking and all. he brings hercules to come to philadelphia. the tricky thing was they have something called the gradual abolition act. if you were there for six months. read on the ten to six months would told he would pack up all of the enslaved people. keep them there for a few weeks and then bring them back. he did this through his two terms. for some reason towards the end of his second term he sends hercules back not to the mount vernon kitchen into the field to make bricks into other hard labor. and that's what really spurs hercules to make the --dash for freedom.

i need my cook back. if you read the letters in sequence he's going to the five stages of grief. i really believe that. and then the letters from martha washington to meet every it's like something you would see on the real housewives of old virginia. i worked on that. i wonder if hercules knew that. maybe that's what spurred him. washington suspected that hercules was going to escape with at least some of his family members. one of his sons was caught stealing some money out of his backpack. it was believed that that was enough finance the escape attempt.

i found it really interesting. this character who is george washington's step grandson, nephew whatever, how he actually luckily for you and for us in for the sake of this research documents in detail about the artistry until what was that all about. he's is going on and on about it. i'm glad he did. so george washington parke custis is his step grandson. thanks to him the diary that he kept and the observations that he made we get a sense of hercules personality and what he have going on in the kitchen. he have a biracial staff.

there were indentured whites that worked in the kitchen. they were all in the kitchen together. obviously hercules was quite temperamental. they talk about fine at the instructions. a person seem equipped to talk about james before we can talk about laura. >> one is james hemmings. >> the chef before he becomes president. when james was 19.

he actually takes it over to france. they have them trained as a classical chef. he didn't play him before. after he finishes the training. he installs him as the chef. he is here in philadelphia. as you know in the mid- 1790s he says i want to be free. if to teach one of the other enslaved people. what you see reuter here that

is written in hemmings on hand. that's at the library of congress if you ever want to see it. he did study it when he got there. one of the cofounders of the james hemming foundation which you can learn more about online i believe one of our other cofounders is here i wanted to make sure we talked about it. the french cooks in the culinary technique. research shows that it's the first and not only the only who actually trains in france for this status. one because he has a fascinating story but also i

think you just set the tone. to enslaved women the reason why he doesn't become chef izzy exley drinks himself to death in 1801. the principal founder will be on site in a fellowship. i alluded to this about the existing documentation. we believe will provide the dimension to the story. we had two enslaved women who are working in the white house kitchen. you talked about them being

trapped. >> typically in the white house and anybody who has been a washington dc in july and august will understand that. typically during the summer they have a skeleton crew. it's in a reclaimed swap. people in the white house kitchen would actually get tropical diseases jefferson would not let those two women go back to their families when he would leave the white house during summer break. they actually had to stay there. trying to reunite with their wives. and jefferson catching them before they even get to the white house. their life was pretty much in the white house basement. we have to remember they are cooking from harsh cookery.

and that cookie there was a fireplace with a range on top. another fireplace that was open. and according to some sources injuries related to cooking it was was a second leading cause of injury to women in the 1800s next to pregnancy. that just shows you how dangerous that work was. we can only imagine. the long hot iron rugs. i love how you had stories within stories. how you run history along the way. it's great for those of us who prefer to use history during the lens of length of not just food but from that perspective. actual quotes from the people

who had worked and cooked and served to you want to talk about some of the personalities of the dynamic between the presidents and some of the people who serve them? there are really three main themes. and then the third is unwittingly or consciously they were often civil rights advocates. they could get access with the president. they would ask the cook to whisper in her ear. hoping that something would register and the president would move on it. one of the funniest stories involves jeff are right. her story is fascinating.

of all of the cooks that i discussed in the book she is one that i would love to sit down with her. she was key to the 1964 civil rights act. the jim crow experiences back then and the family would drive from texas to washington dc. in many instances she was allowed to go to the bathroom. she suffered some indignities that at some point she refused to go on the trip. the president went off to say. after he signs this bill. he presents her with one of the pins and said you deserve this as much as anyone. he would often show up late for dinner you discussed in the kitchen.

he would often show up late with gas. she would start making the food but she would just send out drinks and nobody ever complained. .. ..

>> if we could play that.

[inaudible conversations] >> it's not going to play? [laughter] oh, okay. could you hand me the book? >> [inaudible] >> that's all right. >> okay. so what i did is i actually transcribed this recipe in the book, this conversation in the book, so i'll just go ahead and read it. all right. so, again, the first voice you're going to hear is juanita roberts. >> want me to do juanita? i'm kidding. >> that's all right. [laughter] we have correspondence that the pratt and the first family -- president and the first family like bean. what would you say if you were asked that person by a responsible person? right answer is, oh, i would say yes. robert says, and? they didn't ask what kind, did they?

, no but he likes pock and boon, lima beans and green limas. green? uh-huh. and the fresh green beans, and he like the blue lake canned green beans marinated in french dressing, and he likes -- well, that's not a bean, that's a pea. now, the green limas, how do you prepare those for him? oh, just in salty water, cook them for a good long while until the juice in them is kind of thick. yes, you use the velveeta, don't you? >> well, i do that for parties, and the pinto beans, i guess, cook like i do with salt, pork and ham bone? the pork and beans, do you doctor them up? he doctors them himself with some kind of pepper sauce. all right, do you know where any of the chili recipe cards are? uh-huh, i sure don't.

i may have one or two here. well, somebody's got one, and i'll find it because i need that one also. okay, nice talking to you. okey-doke, bye. so velveeta for special occasions. [laughter] >> only the best. >> right. [applause] but it's a great -- and i believe if you get the audio book, you actually can get that tape. >> oh, there's an audio book you could have sent me instead of me staying up all night? >> yeah. so i just think that's fun conversation. it just shows how when the white house goes into spin control, they go to her. another couple of stories i want to tell involves cooks for franklin roosevelt. >> franklin roosevelt. >> franklin roos version -- roosevelt, yeah. the white house food during his administration was horrible. >> tell everybody, you know -- >> 1933 -- >> right. >> so the problem was that eleanor roosevelt was fundamentally uninterested in

food, and for much of our presidential history, the first lady usually had an active hand in the food operations because she knew what her husband liked and would make sure what her husband wanted and needed would happen. often presidents would like to stray from their diet and get comfort food and junk food. but eleanor roosevelt meets henry yet that necessary bit, and she basically couldn't cook. >> she was a sister? >> no, she was a white woman. now, the one thing that bother ored me was that you had this team of african-american cooks who she supervised, and they had to put something good out. but what we find out is that henry yet that nesbit would stand behind her and correct the seasoning -- >> i heard about this. >> yeah. mess everything up. when people got invited to a state dinner at the whowrks they

often ate before they went. [laughter] yeah. one was lizzie mcduffy who was really a maid but would help out with the food, and this was a woman named daisy bonner who cooked for roosevelt when he would go to warm springs, georgia -- >> because unlike his wife, he appreciated good food. >> absolutely. so he would go for two to three weeks at a time, and a wealthy white family loaned their african-american cook to him, this woman named daisy bonner. so if the first lady and the white house physician were with him, they knew the food wasn't going to be great because it would adhere to a diet. so bonner and mcduffy would look at the president and decide whether he was peaked or not -- >> peaked? >> yes, pale, unhealthy. what they would do, they would bring the food out that the first lady or the doctor prescribed, and as they were putting the plate by him, they would whisper in his ear, don't eat that. [laughter]

so fdr would fake like he wasn't hungry, and once everybody cleared out, they'd take him back in the kitchen and hook him up with what he really wanted. [laughter] >> and there's kind of a bittersweet story where she prepares what would be his last meal. >> right. so the day that he dies, he is sitting for a portrait, and daisy bonner had a cheese souffle timed to be served at 1:15. fdr has his cerebral hemorrhage at 1:12. what she recounts is a true miracle. if anybody here has ever made a sue lay, what happens if it sits around for a while? it falls. ladies and gentlemen, i'm going to tell you about a miracle. [laughter] >> you heard it first, you heard it here. >> daisy bonner says that that souffle did not fall until three hours later when the president was pronounced dead. that's what she says. >> it was keeping hope alive,

holding out that it would be consumed by him after all. >> and she was so move bid his death that she concern moved by his death that she wrote on the wall daisy bonner cooked first and last meal for president roosevelt. it's actually preserved, and she's one who calls the white house switchboard to notify them of his death. so very interesting. she got him hooked on southern food, and she got him hooked on pigs' feet. >> that's another one off the -- >> yeah. the way he liked it, the way she made it is she would broil them and butter them. >> what? >> yes. >> as if there's not enough fat content -- >> i know, i know. [laughter] check this out. we know from one story that he actually certains pigs' feet in the white house. >> not just to anybody, but the british prime minister -- >> right, winston churchill.

he serves sweet and sour pigs' feet to winston churchill. fdr, who loves this dish, says how do you like it? churchill, who was not feeling it, he says it's interesting, it's got a slimy texture. and fdr's like, oh, wonderful, you'll love them fried. >> because east eaten -- he's eaten them so many different ways. [laughter] >> they both really crack up laughing. but just to show how much he loved them, if you go to warm springs, georgia, they have a case that has preserved the shopping list for the last week of his life, and on that shopping list is four hogs' feet. >> proof. >> he had the fever. >> he had the fever? >> i was going to say something else, but it's kind of nasty. >> okay, go. >> that's why i said fever. >> okay, all right. how are we doing on time? >> i don't know, you're the moderator. [laughter] let me explain this, this

presidential pickle thing, because you're probably wondering. >> yeah, what is the presidential pickle because i did not come across that detail. >> okay. the presidential pickle is my metaphor for how we deal with presidents and food because we want our presidents to be extraordinary people, but we want them also to be a lot like us, and food is often, gives us a sense of whether they have the common touch or not. so so that picture is actually a kool-aid pickle. >> like a presidential kielbasa. >> sometimes a pickle's just a pickle, right? >> but it's red. what color is that? >> this is a kool-aid pickle. does anybody nobody -- >> oh, my gosh. >> we got a shout out back here. >> here's how you make a kool-aid pickle. you get a jar of already-made dill pickles, you make kool-aid with the pickle juice. stay with me, stay with me. [laughter] then you poke holes in the pickle or slice them, cut them,

put them back in the jar, leave them there for two weeks. if you like the taste of pickles and kool-aid, it's just a sweet and sour combination. if you don't like either one, this is one of the nastiest things you'll put in your mouth. [laughter] >> and how do you like them? >> i actually like them. it's kind of weird, it may disgust us, but it gets us to how we feel about the presidency sometimes. >> right. yeah, these days. [laughter] it's interesting, you heft off -- that'll be a nice segway. we'll come back to some other stuff. it's presidents week, this book just came out, and you did leave off on 44. >> i did. because i finished the book before the election. >> i know. are you glad that you -- [laughter] happy or glad -- >> well, you know. finish. >> i mean, this is -- it's interesting how, and i'm also curious, did you get a sense when you were researching this,

the legacy? i know that in the early years, the first century and a half that a lot of these people are the, you know, they're grandparents and great grandparents and descendants of slaves who are working in the white house from day one. did you get a sense of whether or not still to this day there are any legacy families connected in any way to the deferent staff positions? >> no. most of the legacy families really kind of disappear in the '70s and '80s and '90s. so in terms of the white house kitchen, for the most part the head cook position only becomes white house executive chef in 1961 because jacqueline kennedy creates it. before they were called head cook or first cook, they were pretty much dominated by african-american women. but when jacqueline kennedy says i want european food by european-trained chefs, the african-american women didn't have that expertise --

>> so she thought. some of the techniques passed down -- >> right. >> around that same time, she could have thrown down -- >> right, but the ones in that kitchen hadn't gone through that training, i guess i should say. zephyr wright, the woman i talked about, was really the last african-american woman to lead the white house kitchen, and she was an interim chef because renee verdonn could not handle it anymore under the johnsons, because here you had this french chef -- >> and this southern president. >> right. is johnson would ask him to make nachos. a lot of tension. [laughter] in that transition while he was looking for another chef, she runs the kitchen and manages to get a raise while she does it. but since then the only other person offered the job was patrick clark -- >> right. >> very well known, late patrick clark, very well known chef here in new york city.

he was work at the hay adams hotel, and he didn't know it but he was auditioning for the job because the clintons would come over there and eat and other staffers. he gets offered the job, but he turns it down because it was too much of a pay cut. >> right, right. >> at that time the white house job for executive chef was around $58,000, something like that. yeah. he had four kids so, you know, it was easy math. >> yeah. that whole math and money thing is really fascinating too, how different administrations and different presidencies that you write about here, you know, try to present an image of, you know, like they're not wasting the taxpayers' dollars and the extent to which they -- even early. even, you know, the whole big brouhaha with washington and -- and then there are people like thomas jefferson who are like, whatever, i'm flying in a pasta machine fritly, you know, who

go -- from italy, when go all out. >> i was going to say, most people don't know this, but before president truman, presidents had to pay for their staff, entertaining and food out of their own pocket. >> right, right. not that difficult because they were often wealthy. >> wealthy, yes. >> slaves. >> and the ones who weren't were very creative. for instance, abraham lincoln and ulysses grant would do their shopping at the army commissary rather than getting stuff at the market to just kind of make ends meet. >> yet the whole thing about whether they shop openly or on the d.l. at the market. but the reason i asked about the staff and the legacy is because i heard -- and i don't know if this is real news or fake news, but i heard that potus 45 fired every, fired the entire staff, people who had history there and they can't -- they don't have to turn the lights on because they fired everybody who had continuity. real news, fake news, anybody

know? >> i think that eastern news. i have not heard that. i think what's happening right now you have holdovers from the obama administration cooking in the kitchen. so there are three african-americans who were on staff as assistant chefs, so they're probably still in the kitchen. it's hard because no one's commenting, so we don't really know what's going on. >> you don't have any moles, any insiders? >> yeah. i'm on the outside looking in. but a fill -- philipina cooked out the other two terms of president obama. as far as i know, she's still in that position. >> i want to make sure we do have enough time for q&a, so if novella could let me know when we want to start that, give me a signal, or maybe you can. do we want to talk about, before we wrap up, do you want to talk about the obamas? >> so the obamas, very interesting with the garden and

the push for healthy eating. there's definitely -- what's interesting about them is that they were a couple that actually ate outside the white house quite a bit and supported the restaurant scene. people ask me what happens when the president goes to eat outside the white house -- >> meaning not al fresco with a picnic blanket -- >> right. in a restaurant. >> i wonder if they did a picnic. that would have been romantic. >> so what they'd do is the secret service goes, and they secure the kitchen of the restaurant, and they get the social security numbers of everyone there -- >> oh, you're kidding? >> no, they do. [laughter] you have to make sure that everybody can be there. and then no one else can come in the kitchen after that. and then the interesting thing is that reportedly there is a trained chef on the secret service who stands behind whoever's preparing the president's food -- >> makes sure no cyanide gets slipped in. >> right. and they're armed while they're doing it. >> oh, wow.

>> and if you watch top chef and they talk about an elimination challenge -- [laughter] >> that's the reality show. >> right, yeah. >> which they could probably do with the current president. [laughter] what else do you want to talk about? >> there's one other funny story i'd like to share. a lot of these cooks and people involved in food service, they're there to make the president comfortable. and one of my favorite stories involved a guy named alonzo fields. he was a longtime butler who becomes maitre d', and during the truman administration and eisenhower, he actually kind of runs a lot of stuff in the white house, is responsible for a a lot of the food. so the trumans love to have a cocktail hour before they ate dinner, and their favorite cocktail was an old-fashioned. if you know about an old-fashioned, it's essential libor bonn and rye whiskey, some bitters and is usually garnished

with an orange peel. so the first night that trumans asked for these old-fashioned, alonzo brings it, bess truman takes this and says can you make this a little drier? we're not used to them being so sweet. he reconfigures the formula, serves it, bess truman says this tastes like fruit punch. so he was a little hurt. so the next night he decides to just serve straight bourbon. [laughter] >> bourbon on the rocks? >> yeah. bess truman takes one sip and says, that's how we like our old fashioned. [laughter] [applause] >> hey now. >> yeah. >> i know. that's another thing i love about this book, you know, there's a lot of stories about the people and the food. some of these recipes are slamming. i don't know about that presidential pickle -- [laughter] i know, i know, but that mint pea soup, for example, i don't

even leak mint unless it's in a gum or toothpaste, but, like, that recipe was the bomb. i actually tried it. >> that is a lauer are bush favorite -- laura bush favorite, and it's actually on the menu at the restaurant there. it's a great recipe. >> uh-huh. gosh, there's so much stuff. i think that there's going to be a time -- did you guys already have a chance to see the book, go to the book shop, or that's going to happen after this, i think. but i highly recommend it because it's really a great read and a great way to learn, just learn stuff that really is so sparsely documented. i mean, you talked about that and, you know, our involvement with the hemings foundation. we're talking about somebody from the most famous enslaved family in american history and still the sparse amount of information, in images, no pictures. he was literate. you know, where are all the recipes and things that he wrote down, were they destroyed, were

they lost? >> right. my hope is that as word gets out about this book that african-american presidential chefs who were very shy to share their story will realize they're part of this very rich legacy, and they will help share their stories. i'm going to keep a web site going the chronicle this information, and i'm going to have an active database of people by administration. because if you look in the book, i write down the names we know of at least, and you'll see some administrations have a couple names, some have several, and i hope to keep adding to that list. is at least these people are known, we know their names. >> yeah, i mean -- [applause] it's so important, it's so important. and that's why we established the foundation, and that's why there's so much synergy between what we're doing and what you're doing, because, yeah, they are important. and they, they sacrificed a lot, they contributed a lot, they gave away a lot, they get no credit for a lot, you know?

and you talk about how some of their recipes aren't documented, but we also have to remember books like the virginia housewife, you know, they're documented white authors. and, you know, who are -- so we have to also, you have to be a detective sometimes to find, you know, where these recipes still live on. >> right. but in terms of the recipes and just reputation of these cooks, so for the last 200 year it's been this rivalry between french cooking and other cuisines around the world. and french cooking was set at the cooking of entertaining, the heist standard, but often -- highest standard, but often americans would talk about southern cooking. and often african-american women were the face of southern cooking. that's why this woman named laura dolly johnson -- >> yes. >> -- is very important. she's a free woman, biracial, who has to be talked into working at the white house kitchen, and benjamin harrison

does so because his friend, theodore roosevelt, recommends dolly johnson. and theodore roosevelt had her food while he was traveling around and had din kerr at colonel mason's place. so when benjamin harrison becomes president, roosevelt recommends dolly johnson. so she comes to work in the white house kitchen, only there was one big problem. there was already a french woman who had that job, and this very french cook had two very american responses; she filed a lawsuit, and she went to the press. >> right. >> so this is the first time that a staffer is sues the president. it gets resolved, and then she went in the press and talked about how poor the habits were for the harrisons and other things. but dolly johnson gets the job, and she is celebrated in headlines all across the country. they say her full name -- >> exactly. >> and she is one of the few examples of a cook who actually leaves the white house and trades on her own name to help establish a second career.

>> right. >> you don't really see that a lot with african-americans -- >> and it sounds like they don't disparage her as much with the whole mamie, which, you know, i have a whole different perspective on that. >> yeah. >> you know, they try to disparage us and put us down, and it sounds like they actually talked about her like a human being. >> somewhat because they dwell on her looks a lot, so you feel like it's been written by a teenage boy. [laughter] but, yeah, they do recognize her much more than they do others. so it's interesting. >> well, definitely looking part part -- forward to continuing the conversation. not tonight, not right now. going to let you guys ask some questions and move on with the rest of the program. thank you so much, adrian, it's a blessing. i'm bless 3 to see -- blessed to see this kind of work. my ancestors were connected to this as well. [applause] >> cool, yeah. >> thank you. >> how did you get the -- [inaudible]

>> so the question is how did i get the recipes, and did i test them. >> [inaudible] >> oh, good. >> and could you use the microphones at the back of the auditorium? >> oh, okay. >> thank you. >> i'll get you next. so it was a combination. i actually reached out to several presidential chefs and asked if i could use their recipes. a lot of these come from looking at old cookbooks and old newspapers. and then some recipes i actually called family members from the president just to see, and i didn't actually get a lot of recipes from them, but they pointed me in the right direction to a printed recipe. i talked to linda bird johnson, the johnsons' eldest daughter, and the strongest memory she had was of the popovers which is a quick bread. so i included that recipe in the book. so it's really a mix. there are two other interesting recipes. i have the state dinner for nelson mandela that patrick

clark actually devised, but at the last minute the clintons said, no, you're not cooking, you're going to be an honored guest here. but if you want to recreate that meal which was a sesame-crussed halibut and lemon grass dressing, you can do that at home if you buy my book. [laughter] >> only if you buy the book. >> another quick recipe is for a young lady who was colorado's 204 representative to the kids' state dinners that michelle obama had. so first lady michelle obama, she would have a recipe contest, and a winner was picked from every state, and the winning recipe -- it had to be a healthy recipe, and they would get to go to the white house and actually eat some of the winning entrees and stuff. this girl was definitely the toughest interview to get in my book because i i used to date her mother, and it did not end well. [laughter] >> well, you must be the charmer, because he got the interview -- not only did you

get the interview, there's a picture of her in here as well. [laughter] >> next question. [laughter] >> my question is i was wondering if you found out stories of enslaved black women trying to poison some of the presidents? >> so, yeah. the question -- y'all heard the question. so i'm just used to not having the microphone. so, no, i don't find any examples in presidential cooking of the enslaved cooks trying to poison the president. now, this is a frequently question, who is the official taste tester for the president. my quip answer is it's usually the president's strongest critic. , no i'm just kidding. [laughter] it's actually the chef. the chef is the last person to taste the food that's put in front of the president. so that's an incentive not to poison it. >> you mentioned -- i read

something in here, you didn't go into detail, but you mentioned something about leverage and how different ways -- or protest, and different ways protest might show up over the years. i don't know if you were joking, but there was something about poisoning. there are stories, it doesn't go into detail here, and i don't think it's relevant to the presidential, you know, to our knowledge, but you did mention that. >> well, i talk about this story called, what i call the poisoned pea plot of 1776, and just really quickly -- >> which did not involve an enslaved woman. >> yeah. the story goes that samuel fontis, his daughter phoebe is cooking a daughter for general washington at the time, and there was a guy who wasn't really feeling the revolution. so he distracts phoebe, and he adds some extra seasoning to the peas. and the peas go out to general washington. phoebe thinks something's going on, and she goes to talk to

francis, her father, and as the story goes, he bursts from the kitchen, he grabs the plate of peas and throws them -- >> out the window. >> and at that precise moment a chicken was walking by -- [laughter] pecks up the peas and dies. >> dies instantly. [laughter] >> thanks to that animal testing, they figured out the peas were poisoned. it's a great story but probably not true because there was no -- there wasn't anybody named phoebe. it may have been a nick nature he had some daughters, and thomas hickey was hanged that summer in new york, but his crime was counterfeiting -- >> not potential pea poisoning. >> right. and the counterfeiting passes that would have allowed unsavory characters to be near washington and might allow him to be assassinated. if this story is true, ladies and gentlemen, i submit it is the first act of culinary homeland security in our great nation. [laughter] [applause] >> in this book. >> good evening. so i have a question to ask you. is there anything during your

research that you found that was surprising to you, that you thought you knew and you were like, wow, this is fascinating? if you could speak on that. >> i think the thing that was most surprising is just the astounding numbers of cooks that have been in the white house kitchen or the presidential kitchen. my own research, i've uncovered 150, and i know that i'm scratching the surface because there were a couple of fires in the white house over the time, so i think a lot of records have been destroyed. one is that we've been there since day one and a continued presence in all these different ways. and, of course, after you think about it deeply, you're like, okay. the other part was the civil rights advocate part. i just didn't know that people outside the white house went to the cook to get to the president. i thought that was pretty fascinating. >> thank you. >> yeah, thank you. >> hi. i saw the washington macaroni and cheese dish on one of your slides. >> yeah, jefferson. >> and i know that -- i know.

i know that chef ashbell talks a lot about james hemings having brought back that recipe from his days in france. to what extent is that particular recipe related to james hemings, and also to what extent did you find the influence of james hemings throughout the cooking that you examined? >> great question. so the earliest recipe that we know for macaroni and cheese actually goes back to the 1300s. there was a cookbook called the form of curry that was printed in 1394, and that was the go-to cookbook for elizabeth i and richard ii, and the earliest version was the pasta, parmesan cheese and maybe some butter. over time cream and other elements get added. so what we find in the book is the old school recipe which is probably what hemings made. and, no, it wasn't close to that? >> he had several different documented recipes because of

the culinary training and the artistry. i think you talk about the adding of the cream and the butter and the extra cheese and all of that. >> right. >> yeah, he, you know, from our research he was maybe obsessive about testing recipes and doing different versions of them and having, like ice cream is another one that he is linked to, the controversial ice cream, you know, who -- where does it originate. >> yeah. >> but without a doubt we know that jefferson's kitchen, through james' cookery, is one of the reasons that it became so popularized, the macaroni and cheese and things like ice cream and meringues as well because jefferson entertained so much. and just, you know, it just became one of the early iconic -- it went from a high-end dish to becoming the comfort good -- comfort food that we take for granted today. >> we know jefferson loved mac and cheese so much because he actually serves it in the white house on february 6, 1802, and

we to know this because one of the dinner guests wrote about it in his diary, a man named cutler who was a reverend and a representative to congress from massachusetts. he sees this plate of mac and cheese, and he has no concept of what this is. he actually thought the pasta was giant onions. >> yeah. >> so he asked this guy next to him, what is this dish, and that guy explains it to him, and that guy was perily weather clark of lewis and clark. and after that dinner jefferson takes him to the east room of the white house to look at the great cheese. when heft inaugurated, a dairy farmer sent him a ton of cheese, literally -- >> literally. >> was it moldy? >> yeah, it was moldy. [laughter] so when andrew jackson gets elected, there actually is a similar gift sent to him, he thought the best way to get rid of it was to open up the white house, serve orange punch and let people have all the cheese they wanted.

a horde showed up, cheese in the curtains, they said it smelled like cheese for a month. >> was in the first government cheese -- [laughter] >> i like that. >> kool-aid. >> but to answer the second part of your question, so because -- and jefferson was teased about having this half-french, half-virginia style, so the fact that hemings gets this knowledge and imparts it on others who would cook for him, i think, shows this ongoing legacy of french cooking in the white house. and we have alter night presidents -- alter night presidents. james monroe, big fan of french food. >> james' training staff at monticello, there's also indication through our research that the neighboring plantations are also being influenced, madison, monroe, the different counties. and so how that spreads and how it even catches up with the chef

that we all, that a lot of people, some people know and don't know of, and lewis who comes to new york in the 1930s and opens up a restaurant, and there's a huge influence on the revival and the appreciation of southern cuisine. is there's a lot of dots connected between this french training, the recipes, the things that james bring back. they say the ice cream was more like a shake, like a, you know, but he finds out how to make it firmer, and, you know, bakes it -- you know, puts it inside of bakes pastries. >> the baked alaska. >> yeah. all these really innovative techniques that show up in fine dining restaurants to this day, which there's a link to the plantations and that. so, yeah. >> but the conversations between french and american food and actually drink. wine is another way this plays out. it goes well into the 20th century. the kennedys got a lot of flak

for jacqueline kennedy's insistence on having the state dinner menus printed up in french and serving french wines. the white house actually has a strong policy of serving american wines. and lbj says not only will we serve american wines, but every embassy around the world has to serve american wine -- >> bourbon. i thought you were going to say bourbon. >> he was a bourbon and branch guy. the french had a funny reaction, they were kind of bemused. they said, well, we understand what americans are doing. there are some fine american wines, but all french wines are great. [laughter] >> we'll take this last question. >> oh, sir. >> first of all, wonderful presentation by both you, so thank you for that. >> thank you. >> so two cookies, -- two quickies. since it's the last one. >> one. >> one. [laughter] >> thank you. >> a colleague argues much of

what goes misunderstood in african culture is because of our inability to understand symbolism. so in your opinion, what does food symbolize in the context of, you know, the work you do? and relateedly, then if music becomes the language of the soul, what is food? >> yeah. so i think food is a great connector. and a lot of my work is really about how do we bring different people together through food. but i think food symbolizes kind of a world perspective. you know, if you have someone who's an adventurous eater and they're curious, they're usualingly open to a lot of different perspectives. if you have somebody who's eating the same food all the time, i think it is a window on the personality of that person. many times we really don't get a sense for who the president really is. it's an artificial imaging that's put out there, but when we get glimpses of how they live, what they like to eat, what they enjoy doing in their

free time, it gives us a sense of whether that is someone we relate to. and we want presidents who are relatable, and presidents want to be relatable, because if they're unpopular, they can't really get their agenda enforced as well. so there's this conversation that feeds upon itself -- >> pun intended, right? >> yes, sorry. didn't even think about that. >> yeah. and it's a connector. if i had to pick a symbol for food, i feel like it's a connector, and i feel like you illustrate that here too. a connection between presidents who may seem different with the staff, and how they connect to our culture today, a connection to the land, the agricultural aspects of it, a connection to the past, history, to the future. so it's a very connective symbol. so i hope we answered your question, and thank you for that question. >> thank you. >> so as we close out this particular program, i want to remind you all that we are

selling books, adrian's book today in our book shop, and we also will have a book signing following this. so, please, give our panel a welcome applause. [applause] >> that was fun, wasn't it? [inaudible conversations] >> have a good evening. [inaudible conversations] >> live sunday at noon eastern, investigative journal annie jacobson is our guest on booktv's " in depth." >> what is clear is that it's mo