have seen so much of in terms of cyber attack from the russians and the chinese as well as the content influence type of thing which really emerged in the last presidential election with what has been called the cyber enabled influence operations of these two things i believe are going to be the dominant form of warfare. >> now back to our focus on slavery in america. ♪ [inaudible conversations]

>> welcome everybody. my name is douglas bradburn and i'm the founding director of the presidential national library here in a beautiful mount vernon and delighted to welcome you all again for a wonderful evening of conversation and history and i would also like to welcome the c-span audience out there. it's great to have you back in the library. you know these evening book talks are special for a variety of reasons because we get to bring exciting new stories to the eager community here but also because it's sponsored by the great donor to mount her in and for many many years. as you all know it does not take any government money. a completely private institution based on philanthropy and based on people coming so we have been in groups like the ford family the ford motor company who

supported mt. vernon since henry ford brought the first fire engine to mt. vernon to keep the mansion house from burning to the grandpa to some of you know it's an ongoing challenge and in fact you are welcome to donate to our fire suppression efforts right now. i would like to welcome you all out here and before we begin the main event i also want to mention some of coming library programs which we still have tickets available. our annual martha washington lecture featuring ford frasier discussing women as consumers on both sides of the atlantic. is going to be a fantastic conversation led by around susan showalter who is a senior curator at mt. vernon and we have the first of three shells with lectures coming up featuring george goodwin discussing benjamin franklin and the british life of america's founding father on march 30. that's when he definitely want

to try to sign up for it. i met george in london at the benjamin franklin house which is an an extraordinary house museum there and he's got an extremely large personality. i think you will particularly enjoy him and his discovery of franklin's life in london. let's get to the main event right away. we are exceptionally pleased to have with us doctors erica armstrong dunbar from the university of delaware with us tonight. you might have seen or featured in "the news york times" recently and on many npr programs but this is where she belongs talking about a very important subject or she received her m.a. and ph.d. from columbia university. in 2011 she became the an awkward director of the program on african-american history in the library company of philadelphia. she is the founding director. her first book their fragile freedom, african-american women

and emancipation published by yale extremely well-regarded and important study and an understudy topic up to that point so the perfect person to take on the challenge to recover the story of ona judge. the salt if erica a round of applause. [applause] c good evening everyone. happy black history month. here i am. so first let me offer a few thank yous of course to douglas bradburn who invited me. i really think there is no other place that i should be giving this talk. can you see me? i'm vertically challenged. i'm going to turn this. see if this is better.

better? okay. i would also like to thank steven emily for helping me with arrangements here. it's been a very busy week. this book just came out on tuesday of last week and so as an academic and my first book was published at el university press. this book is more of a crossover trade look for a larger more general audience so it's a very different experience, one that is rewarding but different. i'm a little tired so forgive me of i voice with guns in and out. been talking aloof at more than usual. tonight it's such a pleasure to be here, to be really where the story of ona judge's life began in mt. vernon and what i will do

tonight is to talk a little bit, i will read a little bit from the book and give you a little context. here we are, i'm in stereo. and to give you a little context about ona judge's life and really what i wanted to do with this book. about 20 years ago i was doing some research on my first book about african-american women in the north and i came across an advertisement for a runaway, and enslaved person who had run from the presidents house in philadelphia may, 1796. i was you know sort of caught up looking through microfilm and old newspapers but this made me pause and i say wait, who is this person who ran away but she

was named ona judge in the advertisement and i thought wait a minute, i don't know this person and that was troubling to me because this is my area of expertise and i am supposed to know all of this stuff and i had no idea who this ona judge was. there was something that was very compelling about this advertisement and it never escaped me. i said i'm going to come back to this important story. i'm going to try and trace this woman. i need answers. i finished the first book and here i am many years later. it was a link the process and attempting to recover the life of ona judge. this is recovery work and for those of us who do specifically early african-american history, and doing this kind of work and

archives where the evidence, factual evidence often doesn't exist because people of color, women in particular often remain outside of the archives. so what i will say is there's absolutely no way i could have written this book had i not read my first book so that's my plug for graduate students and people who are really doing the work of academics. they needed a ground game in order to be able to write this book about a woman who is really just absolutely magnificent when you read this book. you'll be blown away by her life. many folks here in this room and of course that mt. vernon, this is no new story. we know about ona judge and you are among a small group of people who now i hope there are

many more that no kurd. i want her name to become one of those household things like a frederick douglass, like a harriet tubman because she runs away decades before. the title, i will give you a quick story about the title. this is actually one of my first choices for the title of the book and i presented it to some people at the publishers and they hated it. they said it gives away the story, erica. i said yeah but honestly we understand 12 years is going to end at some point. this is really a history of how a woman who was a fugitive never found freedom. she was never free. she simply was never caught.

i think it's a big distinction and one that i wanted to make especially as i was trying to dismantle what we think about slavery in the south and the north in this moment where the nation is new. i think that's one of the other things i was really trying to do with this book was to allow us to see what the early days of this new country looked like through the eyes of the enslaved and ona's life gives us that opportunity to look at early virginia, york, pennsylvania and new hampshire and we get to follow her life and look at how this nation is changing how it's grappling with the issue of slavery how these very central issues to this new nation and this time we are doing it through a young black woman who

made the choice to run away. so as i said i will read a bit. i will talk and we will look at a few slides and we will walk together on this journey of ona's life. spring spring ranked texas streets of philadelphia 1796. weather in the city of whether they love which is often fickle at this time of year between extreme cold and oppressive heat but rain was almost always appreciated in the nations capital. it erased to the putrid smell of rotting food, animal waste and filth that permeated the cobblestone road of this new nation. they reminded philadelphians that the long and punishing winter was behind them. spring lane cleanse the streets and the souls of philadelphians.

it ushered in optimism and hope and a feeling of rebirth. and in the midst of the promises of spring ona judge a young black enslaved woman received devastating news. she learned that she would leave philadelphia, a city that had become her home. judge would travel back to virginia and prepare herself to be bequeathed to her owner's granddaughter. ..

next slide. you all don't need it but it is an older slide when i am on the road doing my show this is one of the earlier images but i always try to give this image so people have an idea of where she was for a good 16 years. today i will introduce the new

american hero who once exposed to compel at any cost this is a woman that found the courage to defy the president, the wait to find allies and escape, to help negotiate, to run and survive. told from her mouth to interviewers perhaps the only account from any slave in 18th century virginia the drive of defiance she guarded what would become freedom for her every day

of her life never forgetting the decision for what she believed to be her right. she traveled to new york the nation's first capital. this is a sketch of federal law where president washington would take the oath of office. martha would make her way up to new york. she would be taken from her

mother and other siblings so i'm going to read from the book to give you an idea of what that moment must have been like. far from an experienced traveler the teenager knew its surroundings and never traveled far from her family and loved ones. the move must have been similar to the auction block. she was forced to leave her family for a destination hundreds of miles away. judge would have no choice but to stifle the terror that she felt him go on about the work preparing to move into personal

accessories. it wasn't her place to complain or question. she had to remain strong and steady if not for herself than for the mistress. he was the most powerful man in the country mrs. washington and judge mathe judge may have shard similar concerns, but of course only martha washington was allowed to express content and sorrow.

everyone knew it including her frightened slaves. robert lucas would soon be made aware of it when he arrived at the estate things were in disarray between 1789 and 81 to escort his own and grandchildren to new york but was surprised and a bit concerned when he arrived to find a frenzied and hectic scene. the manifestation of the conflicting feelings. it was an emotional moment for the slaves and first lady after an early dinner making

arrangements that brought us to 3:00 in the afternoon when we left mounts be. a number of the field negroes made their appearance to take leave of their mistress. they seemed greatly agitated and effective. her mother must have been one of those agitated slaves. she was losing her songs also. they would have joined in the morning. he watched the children leave mount vernon a reminder of what little control they had over the lives of their children.

if she found a comfort in that day. still she knew the relationship with her children would never be the same. the visit was relatively brief. they traveled to people with philadelphia so we are going to go ahead. we don't have an image.

[laughter] it was an image from the providence house but right now for those of you familiar with philadelphia if you go to the liberty bell the houses are right there. i was watching the coverage and therthat there was a speech givy barack obama and hillary clinton and i'm watching the visual width of the crowd and off to the right is where the president has stood so i thought here we are watching this moment.

i bought an unease to the executive mansion in philadelphia. the attempted debate contention around george and martha washington. enslaved men and women always moved about their days with caution not knowing what event could suffer or sleep in the nude. for those that reside within the same walls of their owner, life could be okay an -- akin to walg in landmines such as the accidental breaking of a dish.

she moved through her daily tasks as the hous house has a sh watchfulness perhaps attending to martha washington with extra care as she helped her dress for the day. she became the closest buddies live-- body slaves. moving to new york and in philadelphia the first lady's life was filled with events and it's important to realize at

least in terms of judge it was an intimate relationship not necessarily in the best way but she was around constantly helping her with the most intimate responsibilities, dressing, bathing the. she heard everything that went on. she outlived every one of her children and had no choice although she was 27-years-old and never yielded offspring. john, martha and george washington welcomed to children

and that's a way to think of the relationship that was there from the beginning with the first president. the judge must have with mr. schrock and concern after they read it through the mail the president received a letter from his 19-year-old step grandchild informing them of the intention to marry. eli is a growth over the engagement to a british businessman who came only recently in 1794 and became involved around the federal ci

city. and a romance turned into an engagement. eliza's father was deceased concert to approve or reject the marriage proposal the news must have sent them into a tailspin. everyone that lived within the walls of the presidents house knew what was happening so they write about this interesting situation and that there were questions about who he was and he writes on about the situation. neither knew about the relationship between eli's and

la-- eliza and law who arrived with two of the three children both of whom were the offspring from the relationship with an indian woman they were biracial. through the dramatic events in february 198 1986 mark of washington's concerns must have turned to optimism because by the end of the month she began the upcoming matrimony and a sort of moved through her fear and concern and anger and began to think about this union in the most positive way possible. no idea that the acceptance of the marriage by both george and

martha washington would begin the unraveling of her life, so she married thomas law on march 21, 1796 and the marriage signaled the beginning of major changes for the washington's and their slaves. she knew that her time in philadelphia was limited. by the march wedding, eliza close family knew they wouldn't run again for president. the idea of reconnecting with loved ones in virginia must have given some of them in the executive mansion a reason to celebrate. but judge lived in the north for

seven years and the thought of returning to mount vernon did not settle well. the return was a reminder to judge in her enslaved companio companions. after living in a free northern city this is a difficult concept to swallow. for judge however, the uncertainty banished and her face was revealed, and i think it's important to realize that she comes to philadelphia as a teenager and spends these formative years in philadelphia watching philadelphia grow a.

she would go to the circus and theater. and then with the marriage of eliza, she realizes that her fate was revealed. it was cut short unlike the others at the executive mansion she wouldn't return to philadelphia for the annual sojourn to mount vernon. judge wouldn't be around to witness the president's final months in office.

the deep concern for her grandfather trumped any relationship that she may have forged. the first lady made a decision and it's not used until the 19th century but i do use it as part of this narrative. the first lady made a decision that would help her granddaughter navigate through the transition of marriage. she would give judge to eliza. although earning the top spot among martha washington's personal slaves, there was no way to amass enough personal or emotional capital.

it was a woman that was approximately the same age and no one having a difficult and sometimes volatile temper. she was a force to be reckoned with. her family wrote about her temper and this would have been something that judge was familiar with. a shift to the household of the irritable eliza would mean a life of poor treatment and uncertainty and she simply couldn't let that happen.

judge knew what the future held showed she not see and advise of her black associates. she supposed she went back to virginia she would never have the chance to escape. once she learned upon the disease of her master and mistress she would become the property of the granddaughter by the name of custis. her work would begin immediate immediately. in her interview at the end of her life she said she was determined never to be her slave slave.

her decision was made. the judge was well-informed and knew that her decision to flee was far more than risky. she would save bounty hunters for the rest of her life. her fear was consuming but also was her anger. they pull the trigger and she had given everything to the washington's. now she was to be discarded from the material she cut from the dresses.

judge knew that no matter how obedient or loyal she may have appeared, she would never be considered fully human. her fidelity meant nothing. she was their property to be sold, mortgaged or treated with whomever they wished to. now she was willing to fight for what she believed to be her right for the decision to run was just the beginning of the liberation. the waiting was difficult. for nearly two weeks, judge had to calm her nerves and suppress her anger as allies completed the planning for the escape.

they worked in tandem with the rest of the household as they made the necessary preparation for the trip back and later stated while they were packing to go to virginia, i was packing to go. i didn't know where i knew if i went back to virginia i never should get my liberty. she kept her plans a secret making certain not to share information with anyone who lived in the executive mansion she new that they were often responsible for the flailed fugitive schemes. she decided to rely on the assistance cited outside of the walls of the president's home. not only did she have t does shk her things to leave she also had

to determine when she would escape. although the mansion possessed more slaves and servants than most residences, judge was the first lady's preferred house slave and have to be available at all times for whatever reason. there was only one for which she was exempt. meal preparation. the kitchen staff prepared all the meals served to the president and first family and sometimes received a bit of free time during the afternoon meal and evening supper as others were assigned a. of the president sometimes entertained guests extending the festivities into the evening and inviting guests to retire to the parlor to enjoy a bit of wine and additional conversation. this would be the only moment

judge could use to her advantage and when the moment arrived, she fled. in 1796, she slipped out of the executive mansion while the washington's aid their supper. she disappeared into the free black community in philadelphia. although there was the decision to believe what i want people to understand about the lives of fugitives is to remember that the plan to escape is almost always strategic and planned and was meant to be a win or emotional and in the case of ona judge, her if they put the

careful. she knew the moment she balked out of the president mentioned that the status as a trusted house slave for the most powerful american family would immediately come to an end. instead she'd be a fugitive. 1796, the household steward to george washington placed an ad in the philadelphia gazette and for the week after the appearance, there were two newspapers, the daily american advertiser which we have here as well as the philadelphia. this is the moment i tell my students you can't believe everything you see because for the longest time it was attributed that was incorrect.

they ran advertisements to attempt to recapture ona judge. we have this ad that announces to the world she had decide defe president one saturday afternoon ona judge she was called unwritten about here at mount vernon in philadelphia and new york i believe it was a diminutive of her name and i choose to call her ona judge which is what she went by at the end of her life. but in this newspaper, with very black eyes and bushy black hair of middle stature, slender and delicately made about 20 years of age. a little bit in some of the

advertisements, this one offers a 10-dollar reward which was about the cost of a bailiff whilbale offlour at a time. another sort of interesting thing to note is that this advertisement offers the reward and very clear they see this $10 will be paid to anyone, white or black with the first ads that appear. that language was taken out, which i thought was interesting but this was a play to the free black community that we have seen and knew there was something about the escape. the ad alerted them to the probable escape route, the delaware river. in his advertisement, he sent a strong warning to anyone who worked on the docks of philadelphia's busy port stating as she may attempt to escape all

matters of the vessels are cautioned against admitting her into them. assumptions were correct. he did escape the city by boat. a combination of preparation, assistance in the black community pushed her to begin her life anew as a fugitive and at this point in the book i moved into this transition as an enslaved women in virginia than new york and philadelphia to become a fugitive in her life changes instantly the moment she walks out of the store, and it begins on her voyage to new hampshire. i will read just a bit. the crashing waves of the atlantic ocean hurled the

satellites and candles from one side of the store to another. the smell of coffee was sick, nauseating passengers who were unaccustomed to sailing on his frequent trips between philadelphia, new york and portsmouth. transportation in the 18th century was never easy and traveling by sea could be dangerous in the poorly infected ships slept in and out of the cities with whether caulking hoping to make it to the next port without incident. ona judge never be for sale on such a shift. it could carry up to 75 people depending on the size of the cargo. they were designed to hold straight from one coastal town to the next that the ship

captains earn extra money by allowing passengers to ride along. any voyage is that the judge might have taken would have been close to enjoyable. short river crossings and relatively luxurious vessels are what she had come to know that turned her back on all of that. now on board for nancy there were minimal spaces and travelers launched themselves wherever there was room. once again, she found herself sleeping in tight corners but this time it was with strangers. some were traveling home to visit with family and friends and others were leaving behind a difficult past for the possibilities of a new future and portsmouth. the unsettled to see forged the

stomach to turn a somersault sending her to look for refuge for notch above deck. the wind would call her for head offering temporary relief from seasickness. shortly other passengers suffered the same ways, hanging their bodies over the sides releasing the contents of their stomachs into the atlantic. every morning when the sun lifted itself above the horizon, judge would have looked out across the ocean thankful to have survived another day away, but still she was terrified. for five days she can't interfere. she couldn't appear too nervous as passengers were already throwing quick and curious glances to the woman who traveled alone. she knew that the washington's

were looking for her and backed by name, her name and a bound he probably appeared in many of the philadelphia newspapers. she wondered how much of a ward was attached to her capture. a thought that send her eyes to scan the strangers on board. surely none of the agents had made it to the ship before it left but she wouldn't know this for certain until it reached new hampshire. at the expense of clothing that she wore to serve them was packed away and instead she would have dressed in an inconspicuous clothing allowing her to hide in plain sight. she was a hunted woman and would try to pass not for whites but as a freed black northern women. ona judge but have to fight to

stay free. the washington's would pursue her for years up until three months before the president died. so for years, she had to try to figure out how to remain never caught. i want to show a few of the archival bits i was able to pull while i was working on this project for nine years. the research and writing took almost a decade and during my process of researching, i had this moment where the digitization was just starting. so newspapers are digitized now and it sort of stepped things up as we went along. but this is one of the newspapers i looked through early on in my project and this

is another one of those jump for joy moments when you find what you're looking for in the archives. and of course, this is an announcement. in the town, her name was spelled incorrectly or differently so it took me a while to find this. but what i find so incredible about this were a couple things, this is january of 1797, so she hasn't been gone but seven months, each month or so and in that time, she's able to find a husband and not only did she find a husband, but she didn't go by and alias when she got married and have to repor had te paper about this marriage. this is for the scholars that are happy about this. to see the image is important.

this is a sort of asked of her life and resistance. if you put out the whole page of the newspaper, the front page of the newspaper was george washington's announcement to the people of new hampshire thinking them for being good citizens as he prepared to depart so what is hilarious to me is we have george washington making this statement to the great people of new hampshire and in the column next to it is a slave just ran away so looking at th the entire document it gives you a better sense for the kind of resistance we see whether she knew it and whether she meant to be that much of a resisting person we don't know. she would make her way to

freedom and live out her days in and around greenland new hampshire and she made up a slave catchinit theslave catchir the entirety of her life and managed to build a family for herself. she married, hav had children, worked as a domestic to the end of her days and although she endured the child's poverty and fugitive status until her death, she moved forward. her life was difficult, but freedom was worth it and i will show you my last slide of the evening is a little bit of one of the first interviews that she grants and i will not tell you everything because you have to buy the book and read the book.

this article that was in the abolitionist newspaper up here in may of 1845 and it was at this point ona judge was in her early to mid 70s and granted an interview to the. of the more likely you were to say exactly what is on your mind without much culture.

she never regretted it. she would spend nearly 50 years as a fugitive and the children that she had were also fugitives because slavery followed the strings of the mother. they would remain to be never caught. she was a fugitive in hiding but i'm certain she never wanted to be forgotten. the publication of this book everyone will now know her name. thank you. [applause]

i think we are going to do some q-and-a and have the microphones stationed on either side of the room. >> great, good question about descendents and oral histories. how divisive this without giving away part of the story is? those directly related to ona judge don't exist but there are those connected to her half siblings and there's been correspondence between some that

chose not to bark u up the tree although maybe that is a second project. what we do have is a record of some of her half siblings and what happens to the. philadelphia is forced to take her place and goes to work for eliza. you've got to buy the book. i don't want to tell everything but therthat there is an epilogt explains poignantly how we have two examples of women in the early century who were trying to find freedom and as you'll see in the book we have her sister attempting to do it in other ways so it gets us back to this

issue of women attempting to fight for their freedom but there is a story there. she becomes part of a well-known family in washington, d.c.. i will go ahead and tell you philadelphia does find her freedom. >> i wondered if you could eat above it a little bit more on the ways they might have been planning to assist her. >> that is a great question about the community and how they came to her aid. the communities and free people

of color. where she lived. they broke the federal law. they could be imprisoned or

fined. she referred to them as free people of color or the colored people of philadelphia. a couple of the stories including myself believe that richard allen known for the creation was likely involved in some way or another in her east gate and was known for assisting fugitives and interestingly enough in the account books heralded the philadelphia executive mansion a week before she runs off it is noted she was giving money to buy new shoes. one thing to remember is richard allen served the household and perhaps they interacted and were not certain and also he had a shoe shop in his home. he was a sort of jack of all

trades. so some of us including who wrote the biography on richard believed there was some kind of a connection between her and richard allen. but we also see him outside of philadelphia and outside of seeing this growing population that clearly helped her. the only person she names is john bowles, a ship faster i was able to because she named his name she made it clear in her article in the interview she only named his name because she knew he was deceased and wouldn't get in trouble but it was very clear that following the reports that pulled into the port in philadelphia, his ship was in philadelphia at exactly the time judge ran away and made it to portsmouth at the beginning of june so that's how

i figured out that it was a man see bfornancy by looking at thep advertisements. so clearly, the community was involved with her and her becoming a fugitive and a hold to be the same is true in new hampshire. she gets help and assistance from the population of new hampshire. when she arrives in portsmouth there were more black people in mount vernon and then portsmouth. still maybe. i don't know. it's a lovely city i spent a lot of time there. absolutely gorgeous. but when i realized she went to portsmouth i was like why portsmouth. portsmouth. then i realized she couldn't go to new york. she was a face that was recognizable. perhaps the same was true for boston. she said she didn't know where she was going so it was likely

that those that helped her didn't tell her for fear of problems that perhaps she would tell the plan or be found out. so she doesn't know where she's going until she disembarks and once she gets to new hampshire she finds the community that harbors her and gets her housing angives herhousing and food andr find work and keeps her safe every time one of washington's agents or family members came after they always showed heard her, hid her. so i think the other part of what this book does is show the importance of the community at the end of the 18th and early 19th century. >> a few years ago i read a wonderful children's book to my daughter.

were you part of that project? >> if it was diane turner, she's written a children's book. i wasn't part of that, but i knew her work and i think there are two children's book about ona judge and now there is interest about the kind of young adult versions so i am working on that. stay tuned. >> in bus life you have up there right now or that you did have up there it said something to the effect she didn't know what year it was and i'm surprised that that. you would think it would be burned in her memory. it would be but here i will let

you sneak in and i will just talk louder. we have to think about the importance of history and memory and especially at the end of one's life although she gave pretty good detail she does say but i can't remember. i don't think that is too difficult to sort of wrap our minds around because i know personally i can't remember what happened last week, let alone what year things happened. she wanted to provide an interview that was credible that she did in flying and in some ways i appreciate she says i can't remember. i don't know and i think about that 50 years as a fugitive at a

time when remember she couldn't read or write and doesn't become literate until the end of her life so i think it is very possible that she doesn't remember. so i appreciate the honesty. >> did the pursuit continue after the washington's passed away? >> she says no. she never states that anyone else from martha's side of the family came after. we know martha washington and the estate was transferred to her grandchildren for technically, ona judge would have belonged to one of them. if you look through the

inventory for all of those grandchildren sh she isn't noted anywhere on those lists and in some ways i think they just sort of gave up. but it's a sort of fascinating story because her grandchildren sort of moved in separate ways. we know george washington and custis becomes involved in the american colonizing society. they are emancipated so it's almost like a different story that we move into in the 19th century that captures this transition between the 18th and 19th century. i found a record and she didn't mention the possibility of an attempted capture by any of the grandchildren so that is an important point, but she was

persecuted for at least three years. we know from the moment she runs away until the death of george washington she is pursued. so one of the things i think we have to remember is although there wasn't a sort of physical attempt to capture she knew she was still their property and as long as it existed in the united states, she was always at risk. so i do think it's important to note that the grandchildren did not appear to go after her. maybe a document will fall out of a desk somewhere and tell me a different story and if that happens, i'm excited, not worried but she clearly always knew she was a fugitive and that was a fear that ran true to her and her children.

>> really good work that you've done here. i have a question. does he give anything into the insight dealing with the way out based on the societies and the rest didn't have any information? >> we have a two interviews from her. it really revolved around religion because it was clear. we were not certain if she could write or not but she couldn't read some she talked about religion and the desire to not go to the granddaughter.

she didn't give us the kind of intricacies of what was going on. she lived with them for so long she knew everything. the difficult moments, but she never went there. she didn't give up that kind of personal information. she questioned whether or not george washington was religious. she said i never saw him pray. i think that is a different kind of understanding from her viewpoint. but she doesn't give us those intricacies.

i do talk a little but then the book as a way to give a context for what the united states looked like and he's part of that. >> i find it interesting you find your research on a bounty announcement but you wer that wt really looking for it at the time and then you hit the jackpot. i was wondering was that part of your thought process were what led you to find the reporting interview? >> as a historian i think i can say that i don't know if i would call it a jackpot i just feel like this kind of covering work is so important and to have this story out for a large audience

is the same. i will be honest here, i didn't know if i would be able to find enough to write a book, but there were children's books, maybe a chapter here or there but no sort of book about her. when i first started the research i thought that's kind of crazy then i realized how long it took to do the research and there was nothing, no kind of monograph dedicated to her because the materials are slim and that is another reason i said before that i couldn't have done this had i not written a fragile freedom which taught me sort of everything about early

philadelphia and news work and allowed me to ground the book in the communities with different people and the kind of atmosphere of what slavery looked like in philadelphia and new york and then of course portsmouth. at first i didn't know if i would be able to write a whole book and then as time kind of kept moving, i realized i can and she deserves it. >> what can you tell us about her husband i was wondering if that was an attempt to maintain some anonymity and secrecy.

the question is about her husband who also went by john sometimes. what i was able to find out about him is he was a free black man that was a typical employment opportunity because opportunities are few and far between and they had to look to the cds. you could get all of your money at once and it was also dangerous work the minute you left portsmouth or philadelphia, but have youwhat have you, and o other locations where freedom is always in jeopardy so to think about she knew he would be a way for long periods of time, that kind of protection that many booked for through marriage in

terms of having a husband who espouse wasn't always that way. she spent a lot of time alone. .. >> the little death announcement, the fact that they

offered one for him as a black man was also significant. i was able to find that an peace that together. i do not know anything about his beginnings i just know that he was a free black man, he married they had children, their marriage was relatively short before he died. once again, kind of leaving her to fend for herself. i wish they could be a story where it was triumphant and then she stays away and is never caught. left was really very difficult. it was the same way for many of the other fugitives living in new hampshire. >> we are passing the microphone down.

>> thank you for all of this wonderful information. my question is, as a fugitive was there any physical description of her? >> aside from the advertisement, we get a description of her as young woman, she is about 22 and she runs off. it kind of confirms, what i know about her and described her as later complected with bushy here. later on there were several accounts by local folks who wrote their recollection of life. she made it into, eventually she becomes known as the slave that ran away from washington. she was pretty poverty-stricken

and would tell them about their stories. i seen them described as very light complected almost white to copper colored. there are descriptions about her, so we do have an idea, no image but once again is a fugitive you would not want people to necessarily know what you look like or keep talking about. >> can we get one more? >> thank you. just this past weekend we are fortunate enough to go to the black history museum. while we spent the afternoon, we only made it through a few floors. if we go back will there be any

mention. >> so i went give a talk at the national museum about the american history and culture. no, there is an. except for that i gave a talk and the exhibits can change and maybe that will happen. one thing that's great was out there caring the book in the bookstore. in my not be in the exhibit but you can find it in the bookstore. it also has to do with the lack of the material culture connected to owner. she's a fugitive and left very little behind. if you go to the magnificent museum there is harriet tubman, not turner's bible, so we have these remnants from other famous

and slave people. we don't really have anything in the way of material culture that can be produced. i will say this exhibit here made it happen. without the material culture peace there's definitely an engagement with on a judge so hopefully that will make it into that grand building in d.c. >> thank you so much. let's get around of applause. [applause] >> were going to require her to stay in by everybody books. i do appreciate what you said about the exhibit. when we had the slavery conference it's just been open a week and i was very curious to see how the scholars would respond to it.

jonas anything else. i know you like it a lot. >> i was one of those folks who showed up in october. it's a stunning exhibit and a lot pectin. i think it signals a moment that is really important. it's a difficult topic. and to throw yourself into a and connect the president with the contradictions, the hypocrisy, and also looking at him as a man and his ideas changing about slavery overtime, i'm super appreciative that definitely makes it into the exhibit. i've only heard some positive comments about the exhibit. if you haven't seen it you definitely should.

>> thank you so much. let's give another big round of applause. [applause] good night. you can buy books out the door and join stephen. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible]