post a list income a list and come achieve. really appreciate you coming out to this interview. a lot of information on clearing up a lot of things for the public. i definitely would love for everybody, especially cause to resist the because you will learn the pitfalls of corruption. thank you so much. >> guest: thank you. ♪ >> the name of the book is the chicken trail following workers, migrants and corporations across the americas. the author, university of

arizona professor of sociology, kathleen schwartzman. dr. schwartzman, what is a chicken friend? >> well, a way to describe a circular movement of chickens to mexico and immigrants to the united states. >> host: in a longer form how does that occur? >> guest: of the ideas because the transformations in the poultry industry, there were increases in labor conflict and because of that, tasting, for example was indicted for gritting illegals in mexico, giving the papers come across in the border and distributing them. that was part of the movement north. also as a consequence of increased industrialization in

the industry and nafta, there was poultry exports in mexico, which contributed to undermining the poultry industry particularly in mexico. there is really no alternative to be absorbed into an economy. and as a consequence committee that the migration back north. so that's a slightly longer version. >> host: do a lot of mexican immigrants work in the american poultry industry? >> guest: well, this is for the nation as a whole. the gao, u.s. government has said that in 1970 about 26% of the workers were hispanic in may 1990 at it gone up over 45%. that's for the nation as a whole and its meat and poultry. not really broken down.

when i looked outside states, alabama, arkansas, north carolina, georgia and mississippi, the states were interesting because more than half the poultry production and the nation is conducted there and also those first aid which gained interest increases in the hispanic population between 1990 and 2000. so i think is north carolina, for example, almost a 400% increase in the hispanic population in the state. that's relative obviously the absolute numbers start much lower. despite states are not traditional gateways for immigrants. normally the east and west coasts. these were near definitions for immigrant. and so the percentage in those states in a particular county with poultry plants put together the u.s. census data with u.s. economic census and you can see the rise in hispanic population in those industries.

>> host: with these jobs going unattended? just goes to one of the things that got me interested in this project was this discourse about they take jobs no one wants. i'm remembering even then-president of mexico in 2005 was praising immigrants for diligence and hard work, doing jobs in a sad not even blacks wanted to do. and so, when i look at the poultry industry in 1980s, for example, most of the workers were african-american. people would say things like they took them out of the cotton fields and put them in the poultry industry for the cotton belt is now the broiler belt. or used to be cotton was king and now it's poultry is king. so the jobs were filled with people who are doing work. african-americans mostly.

there's lots ofit total evidence about a hamlet fire was a poultry fact tree that went on place comments in the ignition on one of the hydraulic line in 25 or 30 people died. there were no hispanic names. so you can look at the government data, census data for a lot of anecdotal evidence which shows there is really not a substantial population of hispanics. in this case. obviously i've excluded texas and florida appear close to oppress her shorts and income is very large percentage or a percentage of these workers undocumented. this is of course a hard number to get. the estimates vary. i look at the social security administration data of no matches and they just escalate after 94. that says use their social

security numbers submitted by firms which do not match existing social security numbers in the social security administration so they called those mismatches. when they get a certain number, the social security administration will send out letters to the firms. so the top of the firms, there is a good representation of businesses in those fights they. and when they have a get the tax year 2002, the number has actually increased. so that's a rough way to kind of get at the level of undocumented may be. and of course there's always raise and poultry plants, and plants generally. and so, when operation everest was done, an undercover operation called operation

everest, the indicted pace and for seven years engaging in effect dignity and recruiting a legal document. executives were never indicted. they were indicted if they were found guilty. postcode you said it escalated after 1994. was it coincidental that senate has passed? >> guest: i think it was nafta. it was also the valuation of the peso in mexico, where some of the business owners i talked to said it's bankrupted them. it meant people saving for also diminish. i think that increases the immigration flow. there are other things going on in mexico at the same time, which is the economy and the government.

some of it begins after the debt crisis of 1982. mexico defaulted on its second debt. in order to renegotiate its wants renegotiate its once, it had to our certain conditions. the international monetary fund and they included a series of restructuring such as privatizing state-owned enterprises, reducing the size of the government, the devaluation and opening tariffs, opening the borders. some of us has already begun, the opening of the tariff borders had a bb gun when mexico joined the earlier version of the world trade organization in 1986. so there has been some lowering of tariffs. even with nafta and 94, the poultry association, national association of poultry producers have managed to get a phaseout of 10 to 15 years and subculture

part, lakes and concorde. and so that meant that the tariff was going to step down little by little to zero. 2003 was destined to be zero and that was acceptable in getting it extended until 2008. there's still a lot of poultry coming in. the amount of imports are coming in. they complain some of it was clandestine. there is only going to mexico. they would send the secretary of agriculture there, but someone was tipping him off. >> litter your interest in? >> greatly been in arizona because this is a major thoroughfare of immigration and also a place where there's a lot of contestation about pro and anti-immigrant. and also the discourse i found

frustrating. the discourse really is sort of polarized between what people negatively would call briefing. there's a kind of tunnel vision, which is the only actors, stakeholders are immigrants and those against supporters and those against immigrants and you don't get much conversation not that level about the mexican government, which lets remittances, higher than oil earnings. the u.s. government, businesses. one of the other problems for me as a sociologist is that the conversations of these polarized groups tend to either for sanctified whichever group year-round. and as a sociologist, my feeling is there's really not analytical value in lander. that's not going to help us. we need to move to something a little bit markets are called,

perhaps mark local in understanding the conditions under which these conflicts emerge. >> host: what is the advantage to tyson to supplying these documents? >> i think the indictment was public, but when i looked out research that journalists and others had done. many were paying recruiters are existing employees, while this sounds absurd to us today. in the beginning, they were paying people to bring immigrants and to the plants. he did get a year, obviously you don't need to pay any more because you get chain migration. so it wasn't really tight. i don't find tyson.

it is just what originally caught my attention to the difficulty. it's not even poultry per se. many other who are in the states who are doing the same labor recruitment. it was more like a metaphor because you could see exports go enough to mexico and people coming from mexico and guatemala to the u.s. so again, not to demonize the business. it's a much more structural thing. >> host: kathleen schwartzman, as we enter a new president they been discussion about trade and revamping nafta, have you reached any conclusions? >> well, one of the ironies i think of it as the world trade organization promote free trade

that one branch of the united nations, which is this committee on migrant rights tries to ameliorate. the wto is in a u.n. organization. it's affiliated. you have the u.n. pushing one way and other organizations trying to protect migrant rights from the anti-immigrant sentiment that break seven countries. this is a little different than the current discussion about trade. so when i think of what was done by the fao, the food agricultural organization, they talk about import surges. this is not a developed country, it's about the developing one. they talk about one cotton is the barrier on cotton was dropped to zero in india. in one year they relate et dozen suicides. these were cotton producers who couldn't make a living producing their cotton compared to the

cost of the imported cotton. so the trade theory is reasonable. division of labor with free trade. people talk about it as though it came down from the mountain on a tablet with moses. my feeling is it's a reasonable theory, but there's some negative externalities in the way i think of them and write about it in the book. they become social problems that nations and tragedies of individuals. you got one out of every 33 people according to statistics in 2010 moving. it doesn't make sense out of africa wants to move into europe. it is not sustainable. so what it means us to rethink trade not just from the percent over current conversation of the united state, but what is it that it doing to developing nations? here's an example about the micro versus macro.

in 1793 comments u.s. passed a fugitive slave act. you should capture and return slaves. in pennsylvania, there were quakers and abolitionists who didn't support this. in fact, they rake and slavery. and they were engaged in the underground, bringing men escaped slaves and harboring them. in 1860, there were about four plus million slaves and two plus million pennsylvanians. this is hypothetical. if every person in pennsylvania harbored slaves, every person would have to harbor 1.7 slaves. it's a well-intentioned humanitarian approach, but it's not sustainable. obviously the solution was abolition. immigration today. migration today. well, it's about excess population.

it's about inadequate food production. it's about unfair trade for the developing nation. and of course civil unrest in the civil war. that's a more global level. how can we rethink not just sanctuary cities harboring, being human at terry at, but how can we think about conditions which will alter the push out of the developing nations for people to want to stay home and not migrate. i know the answer, but we need to think about it at that level instead of just humanitarian -- in addition to humanitarian aid. >> host: is somebody read "the chicken trail," what are they going to learn? >> well, they might get a different sense of the approach

and potential plays for solutions that they just suggested. that might be, you know, this isn't really exactly about the poultry business. it's interesting in the united states that immigrants is the solution or everything on the part of business from computer specialist to cabbage pickers and my feeling as well, why do we think about changing our educational system so we have our own students who have the science things and i have a more cynical sense about cabbage pickers, which is i'm ready to argue for a new brigade and send an unemployed high school is didn't end college student to do brigades in harvesting. >> host: what about the h2 a visa program? >> i don't know if it successful. >> first of all what is that?

>> they were using it in agricultural areas to bring people in as guest workers. it seems to me that is a reasonable -- a reasonable solution. i don't remember the day, the houston treat them in a start way. so that would be the h2 ad. postcode is it successful? tesco i don't know the answer to that. >> host: what is your answer? >> guest: my guess is that they were so successful they wouldn't be such recruitment of undocumented. that's what the guy says. another way that a guestworker matters is that this is a little bit different. people now are citing the floods of immigrants and less at the

border. we are to have a pipeline that would include citizenships. if undocumented have a child, that child is a citizen and kenya's anchor they call it, anchor baby, a way of extending the number of people here. even if the border slows, they are still in the pipeline. and also the family reunification is quite right at this point. it also allows people to bring in to bring and family come extended family who can in turn bring in others in the 195 immigration legislation. >> host: the book is called "the chicken trail: following workers, migrants, and corporations across the americas" across the americas. university sociology professor, kathleen schwartzman. >> guest: thank