>> a debate on whether college campuses foster racism. we will hear from lawrence ross also got the black-and-white politic of race on america's campuses supposed by the forum in new york city. it features topics of special interest to libertarians and aims to enhance professionaln nk ties in the libertarian community.y. we are partnered presenting

these debates and you can catch audio of these on the podcast you will find in the store. i would like to thank the foundation for making this yearf he is possible. i'm the economics books editor and the director and the moderator. for more information to buyor tickets to the future debate, go to the website at the support forum.org. the audience initially votes for, against or undecided on the resolution and then again after the debate is over. it is as follows. america's colleges in the environment that makes them aa hostile space for african-american students. defending the resolution to my right we have lawrence ross thes author of black bold

black-and-white politics and race on america's campuses. it. with any questions you want to put to him after the debate. we have camille foster in telecommunications entrepreneurt and host and cohost of the libertarian podcast the fifth column. [applause] so now we will close the voting can begin. colleges foster the racist environment that the them aahosl

hostile space fortake i african-american students. how many of you have heard that song before? the chapter at the university of oklahoma from about five or six different members in the midwest and everyone was shocked when they saw the video and it went viral and even fox news thought this might be a little bit racist.me because we like to think that racism is some sort of an expera merrily along series of unfortunate events that are isolated, this isn't the first time. no one ever connected the dots.

it was reminiscent of the memoir and they said you better play it cool or sunday school. they were talking about the baptist church in birmingham alabama. is this a coincidence? this is the tip of an iceberg for the type that you see on college campuses. i was doing research between 350 to 500 on the college campuses that are reported. what are we talking about? do you want them blac dressed un blackface it seems every year you want people trying to mimic,

quote on quote, african-americans it happens all the time. eating watermelon and fried chicken. this happens every single year. it happens on a regular basis. it happened twice in one year at the american university and it happened a couple weeks ago. they decided to put a guerrilla map on his face and then hand am out to students wear black lives matter.times it's sometimes it is part off organized chapter events in the

40s, 50s and 60s. it's in the newspapers and, archives and every place you can pretty much find it. it's only in the south because the university of alabama that does have its racist issues, but now it happens in the survey, columbia, berkeley, ucla, every place, whether small college or private college it happens in every particular place but here's the problem.

i'm pretty sure some of you in the audience would say that's 105 so that is a game i am not going to play. what are they trying to do wheno they come onto those campuses,ts they are coming onto the campuses specifically to get anr education and what is happening is these university itself andsi when we talk about the universities it is creating ach hostile environment. i want to reread the resolution. they foster a racist environment that makes them hostile spaces. the issue is when we talk about

the environment it is an adjective for the gnome environment as though it is natural and doesn't contain racism of its people from outside of the great. i'm going to argue for the affirmative but i still don'tenp believe that. it's part of america as any other place so therefore we shouldn't make the assumptionth that it is not racist. this goes back to one of the earliest studies done by the sociologist. what is the racial climate on the campuses in the summit was restricted because they were not

allowed on the campuses and there was no survey but others said we treat them exactly like the white students and others were never bringing them to campus because we couldn't deal with their safety but it is eas. for us when we talk about the college campuses to think of them as educational disneyland. it is a utopian space.an nobody remembers it and we even talk of it as an ivory tower. as a practicality of the world not separate from the real world or the american society. the universities are composed on

a numbeofa number of elements. the administration, yes, the buildings, the campus. it is warm and inviting and it doesn't happen like that.. it's not like that. you have to remember the hostility isn't just a th quantifiable fact that we have all of these incidences. how do students feel when they get on campus, do they feel welcome when they get on campus and that isn't something that other people can tell them.t

one of the things we want to talk about without getting specifically to the root of it which of course is of white supremacy. i should have given you a warning i was going to say white supremacy and make it the same space for all of you. even if you don't believe that, look at what the students havean to deal with.

in its field that they have to slaveholdintheslaveholding famid burned alive 100 africans in order to put down a slave rebellion. i do love these people, located on the johnston county plantation that is one of the leading advocates which is also advocated for the lynchingf that's 500,000 from the strom thurmond building. then two weeks ago they did havt the flyers on the multiplee campuses around the country and that is the history that you have in terms of how they see themselves on the campuses. a lot of times it isn't historical relics.

this is reality in the fact no a one would ask them to look like they are fully human but why specifically, i've studied it, it doesn't happen on a highh school or elementary campuses but the one reason why i think in particular the architect is because colleges are economical sociological, transformational and whether or not you are going to uphold white supremacy oror transform it in society, the students on the campuses are a direct threat so that means people then decide to attack th threat. african-american students do not go to the same schools or live in the same neighborhoods. 74% of the students live or go74 to a segregated school but 38%

go to a k-12 school before they get to college and it's about t 80% or so for white students coming to college. but despite all that, the study says in terms of how they didn'a try hard enough despite how hard it was to get to campus. you would find a at lsu saying they had a mail to investigate. at colgate a young woman was talking about the fact she walked around with a white womat

-- with a metal's word and talked about the fact that the year before, no one stopped her and a young african-american students walked around with a glue gun for his art project and the police shut down the whole campus because of how theywn thought of one detainee student and one not. so they are all raging white supremacists, of course not.i'm i am not saying that i will say that white students and administrators and faculty are coming to campuses with various aspects. .. deconstruct racism on this campus. and miami who are racist i can't wait to get here because this aspace for me to be racist. most peek are not any of that. most people in the world and most white students and administration and faculty typically are nonracist.

something i believe in egalitarian society, i voted for obama so how can i be racist? they put a more or less justification between racism versus saying i can do something. as long as it's over through don't have to do something. it's somebody ems's issue. inside higher education did a study with 700 white college presidents and they asked them, what is the racial climate? most of them said it's good or he can lend. -- excellent. they did it again in 2017 and you think it would go down abuse obviously things are not really good it went up. 90% of the college presidents who said excellent, went up. so, what happens is there's a kind of -- not just with the college presidents. it's also the students. a woman decided to paint her

face black, throw up a bang signed and said it feel goods to be pa nigga. they asked her why? she said i'm the least racist person i know. if ask myself if you're the least racist person, who is the most racist person you know? >> 30 second. >> he doesn't like racism, nine anybody else. no one likes. like saying i love cancer. but they have myths. individualized, minimize, and trivialize and dispense the concerns. all the individual instance depend, look at the interest -- in terms of minimizing, black students are hypersensitive and then triflize it by pick -- trivialize it by picking out an incident but that makes african-american students mad because they're dismissed. one student said i didn't come to the university of oklahoma,

going back to ase for -- i dime be an engineer but she used what james baldwin saidment when the paradox of education when you begin to develop a conscious you must find yourself a war with your society. it is your responsibility to change society if you think of yourself as an educated person. >> thank you. [applause] >> camille, 15 minutes to speak against the resolution. take it away camille. >> great. only need three of those since lawrence explained the tack tim ago i going to use. except he is wrong. first, thanks so much to eugene and naomi and john and the rest of the -- and thanks to all of you for being here, and lawrence, thank you for coming and taking on what is a very difficult and challenging task, trying to prove this really assertive claim about universities being hostile environments. my suspicion is that most of the

people in this room who take an interesting in like this are probably university educated. imagine that wasn't their experience, and i'm not imagining that because i'm just going to -- why not contrive something. i'm going to consult a study, except it's not one that is well over 100 years old. it's one from bat year ago. in fact i'll consult two of them. both studies we saw the students overwhelmingly save they thought the racial -- race relations on their campus were good or excellent. not only -- i'm sorry about that. this is the other -- i am at a severe disadvantage i do not like monologues the notion for talking for 15 minute is not committing for me but i'll try to keep it going for you guys. also, lawrence has been studying this stuff longer than i have, but i'm going to try to make am empirical case, and when i say

empirical, it's not just a matter over citing numbers it's a matter of making claims. if what would we expect to see? i certainly don't think we expect to see 75% of students on campus saying they're pleased to be the. they're happy, they think the race relationships on their campus are fine and good. in fact even black students say that. but it is certainly true that black students say that to a lesser degree. what is even more interesting from my standpoint is that these hostile racist environments, when i decided to take a look at this a little more closely, i went and took a look at the top ten and the top 25 universities, both top ten private universities, u.s. nuss news and world regard, top 25 universities and every single one of the campuses they have a chancellor of diversity. and often time thursday multiple people who hold that title. the small fiefdoms that rule

over the entire campus, adjudicating various wrongs and making students feel, one hopes, safer, and every single one of those campuses has an african-american studies program where you can get a degree, spend your entire time studying that. many of the campuses have diversetive credit outside earn for taking these classes. that didn't exits when i was in school. but suffice to say there are significant investments being made in pursuit of this goal, and it's no surprise, then, this goal of creating diversity on campus and no prize that since i believe the late 1970s, up until about 2015, the rate of -- not the rate -- the share of 18 to 25-year-olds, african-americans, in secondary -- post secondary

education has increased by 100 -- by almost 100%. twice the rate of white students. why are they rushing to go to these hostile, racist environments in and why at a time when they're supposed to be awash in all of these anecdotal cases of racial outrage directed towards them? is the fbi reporting they're actually seeing far less reports of hate crimes on the campuses. i'm not exactly sure but it may have something to do with the fact that many of these students, who in the same survey had said they believed their college environment is a lot -- is producing the sort of race relations that one would expect, excellent, good, probably consistent with your own experience at school. many of them were deeply concerned about the state of black america. they were concerned about black people in general.

they were also concerned about the state of race relations on other campuses. what is that? interestingly, i think that there is the very strong possibility that some of the programs that have been put into place to try and ameliorate imagined wrongs to try to create a campus environment that is more equitable and more equal and more fair and that celebrate this traditions of all of the students on campus, rather than bringing the students together, may in fact be creating some divisions. it may in fact be highlights the things about one another that make them different rather than highlighting the thing about one another that make them the thing. what sort of stuff would that be? perhaps really charged language like white supremacy, like privilege. what on earth or those things?

we were just told chat white supremacy is something that is not necessarily what is practiced by the klan but some sort of force that is behind almost everything that you do and everything that is around you and everything that surrounds you. there's an unbroken continuum from the founding of the country, from chatle slavery, through jim crow, on up into your campus where there is a young white girl at the university of maryland, my alma mater, who was photographed in front of a cake and the cake said the words "suck -- i don't -- suck a nigga dick. that is a very strange phrase. what does it come from? lil wayne. the lyrics to a rap song. this is one of the myriad anecdotes brought to bear in support of the case that these campuses are awash in racism.

i don't think it would make a hell of a lot of sense for me to cherry-pick the various incidents of supposed racism and i say supposed not because i'm denigrating it but because what is racism? what is the trigger? these are subjective assess. inside many cases. certainly once you get from a situation where the state is making determinations.who can attend school at this particular place, if i say to you, you are a detroit -- a credit to your race, have i in fact insultedow? if someone sends me a message on my ipad and says, good luck at your debate, kill 'em, die take phones? die presume that this is in fact a reference to the fact that -- the fact -- that black people are overrepresented in crime statistics? is he suggesting that i am in

fact a violent person as a consequence of it? i don't know. i can't know that. but one can presume, and unfortunately -- i read lawrence's book. in there are portions i agree with but not many. >> oh, man. >> i'm sorry. but not many. and the one thing i do conceit, however, is that it there are number of black people that share the sentiment being expressed. the sentiment that if you walk into a store and someone speaks to you, that this person may in fact be trying to affirmatively get in your way and make certain that you're not stealing anything. but simultaneously the same person might also feel that if they walk in and no one speaks to them, that suddenly it's because, well, they must think i ain't got no money into spend.

what sort of cognitive load are you carrying if you're imagining that in every single circumstance, both the existence of programs to amale you're rate discrimination and the nonexistence of the programs are evidence of the contempt that the world must have towards you. ...

return somewhere close to 80%. 80% higher for the students with average grades who are applying to the same medical school. universities are doing everything they can to try to create environments that are identical in terms of the demographic representation of the students on their campuses to the world of the living. there may in fact be the

consequences to a program like that if a student that goes to a university that they may or may not be prepared for because the university has a different set of standards for them going to be better off if they take two years of school, accumulate debt and they will finish. i'm not sure about that. is this too and going to be better off if they were to go to a black college or university it might not be as good as another school they could have gotten into. are they better off going to a school on the basis of their racial identity so that they can be in a monolithic environment that looks nothing like the world they would inhabit? i suppose you might be better off if you are someone that decide you are in affirmatively

black person. but for whatever reason, we are in the era when there are people like richard spencer posting events and getting far more attention than they deserve what warrant, but there is something good that richard spencer does. every now and again he will talk about white pride and his heritage and how much he loves and appreciates his whiteness. there would be a student union on their campus so for whatever reason when we encounter tribalism like basic gross tribalism on the college campuses in the form of white pride and recognize it for the instinct that it is, something we should be trying to strive to rise above that we make all of the exceptions in our society.

when barack obama shows up at howard university to give a commencement speech, he encouraged as thi this this enta of young people to be confident in their blackness. he of course then goes on to say there is no one right way but what that suggests to me is if there is a universe of blackness and you can be anythin anythingn perhaps it doesn't mean anything at all. perhaps it is arbitrary but you can set it aside and not revel in it. but we can find ways to build bridges between the communities on campus to learn to identify with one another with any number of ways that are distinct and the trends and patterns that we see when the students join any

number of different organizations that are primarily interested in the race and that are interested in highlighting the things that make them different from one another. they are not necessarily going to produce the kind of outcomes that we want in the same way the diversity programs have been created as the studies show over and over again haven't done a great deal to improve the conditions of the organizations they are supposed to improve. instead what they do is make the folks involved in the programs feel terrible about themselves. so i think i have exhausted my time. >> fivuse] take it away lawrence. >> and think the question

would be that it is a misnomer you have to be a choice as an african-american that historically black was created jujube those colleges for they were not allowed they should go to a state school in our state or a private university my son next fall goes to art school because he is an artist but at no point in time should we think that racism should be a hurdle that black students have to deal with on the road and the reject the idea because college universities make that mitigating effort and for many years it meant a lot of

african students had this experience on college campus but by then a time they got to the senior year this i will give that money back to the university but we don't have to make that choice they shouldn't have to bed at university in terms of what they say or how they look that is a canary in the coal mine. jindal so should look at the facts and the over the last tender 20 years the rate of faculty on college campusesremad

is the eye at every. say you don't even have the faculty on the campuses so you cannot simply just sayhouldt they go to this school but i reject this idea that most that are coming to the predominantly white institution so maybe they should be at another school.e cs they find the rigor of theuc school is too much for them. so talk about the resolution itself. a and to mean that bid as high style so that just threee

means the same. >> that is not what we are talking about even before they get on the college campus. so why would we expect individual racism that if they exist in american society. but in 2015 university of pennsylvania found with the university president's that came to reacting in

basically doing puerto rico. that this does not reflect. but then two months prior to that incident happening. >>. >> is that important to say that these spaces are starting to address the needs? were just to remedy itself? but they come to the campus.

>> so take it away kmele. >> with akio characterization's i am not defending the proposition. you are in quite frankly the most deeming evidence really is the survey data. with the 68 percent of those respondents of race relations on the campus and in another survey from the museum foundation they start -- the race relations on campus were good. a but there ribby a very significant problem to make this argument as they are hot styles basis with the expectation with some of

these students which is a point in your favor of other campuses they don't see the problem which suggests that they will encounter these things. but for whatever reason that they may nazi these events happened but all of thesened. for to be addressed quite the contrary and with those various campuses to address those issues and to have that impact over what theyou would have. and if one of those people had done something but the

rest of the folks on the campus but with those numerous cases into have one in the last week and it is suspicious whether not anything actually transpired in terms of the hate crime and so has fleecy a reduction in and there are the defense taking place one of those he mentioned was a three day sit-in at colgate university because of tax messages sent on the anonymous messaging service. anonymous. i don't even know if these are students let alone white people who actually hate

black students. so which is incredibly easy to make the argument is also incredibly easy and then to say there is. also university of maryland is mentioned in your book but the time i was there it was just byrd stadium i was not aware of the history of the man for whom the stadium is named. but not been aware costly no great injury and one wonders if several years after i matriculated a student

decides i will campaign against the sand crusade and send letters to let them know they put on a racist field it is not. perhaps the building has a name of somebody and savory.at. and then to have better evidence but what makes that determination to keep the name of the building the same? as opposed to taking the name of this person? or to participate in lynchings? multiple lynchings. not to commemorate but underscore. idiot don't like that the outcome it is not racist the

you are satisfied given the number of people in that room is a bread and virtuous way to adjudicate the problem. >> said to have five minutes >> i would love to address that survey data. so i would treat the survey like americans. overall basically debt of those you do the actual survey.

and his sister as an individual to walk around campus and not studied the buildings of which you are on the campus. there is not a problem with that. you will not be harmed but at the same time that there are buildings there that are supposed to be named over people you would think that if you had a college that understand that they would say this may have meant something in the '30's talking about for a stadium is named after a man who went to president of the university.

said you go to the university of maryland as an african-american go once you are understand that perhaps it is not the honor. what does that mean then names of the buildings? so ask those jewish students. so yes they may ignore that. so some will not have an issue. so she thinks that university of maryland ditcher campus. mea

>> if you say hate crimes. and that is elevated to head that metric. sorry. so what level of racism do you find not to be insignificant?. >> adam notify would attach a percentage to that we go live in the new jerusalem but here on earth there would be some level of crimee ai in may and it is worth noting some of those are perpetrated by black people as well some of those are aimed at white people in

this and that i can be disarrayed all greece and -- race is but i will not pretend i am not pleased when there are fewer hate crimes taking place. i also think it is appropriate to note that if you have black students matriculating on campuses the md with the model minority of attending school based on population, african immigrants, it is very difficult for me to except the argument we live in thewe country that is so steeped in racism and animosity that is unintentional that black people simply cannot be successful in this country or that they are in a

position in it makes sense to carry this chip on yourr shoulder to suggest when in fact, you see these events happen that seem to fit a particular narrative. talking about police shootings that ferguson is an interesting the sample you hear a story about a police officer shooting a young man then you jump to the conclusion that theat crime was committed. do we have to wait for the facts to come out and when they do do we embrace the truth gore stick with the narrative? and in this particular case several independent custody since lead to a particulare outcome. i don't make that argument because i don't bank there are not a significant number of issues of police violence

aimed at civilians but my biggest concern is of black lives matter movement have created an environment it is harder to achieve by focusing on the motivation of police who find themselves in violent encounters rather than the facts so what we might actually be able to mitigate i think the ending of the drug war would create a situation with wes encounters that is the principal thing we should talk about. and then to establish as fact. >>.

>> 84 that. saw just want to take that prerogative so what was it you say to defend the idea of that survey data 65 percent of black students? what can you say about that legitimacy?. >> the surveys last taken inot the last 24 months early 2016 if i run mistaken some of that foundation survey and i don't know the number for the other survey but

what makes them trustworthyse to is in the magnitude and not think anybody could quibble with the indication the students on college campuses are concerned about these issues simultaneously believe their campus is safe and good because they are there and see a. all of those terrible things they hear about they are not ignoring racial injustice where black people are taking advantage of as they are subjugated of those forces always at work in society.

and then with that response? >> so talk why would they be going to the schools if they are racist? i now think they have never been stopped by the idea of racism they have been going to college campus since overland college we have been through the days of slavery and in 1850 so the idea of college being a transformational place economically and socially so the idea of dredging through racism at the same time is not a deterrent does not mean they

have to have that extra burden for girl you should not have an extra burden for women. so what we talk about is if universities are high style. -- hostile but talking about on college campuses bed is not african-american students of predominantlyse white institutions you cannot have 200 campuses in they were thinking this would happen somewhere else. and it was california's of berkeley where reproach tested it was not thursday. [laughter]

you still cannot say and then to become introspective so then it goes back to the university of maryland but guess what so someone else said another campus you say wait a second. >> if you want to speak toll them later you had your opportunity. >> so let's just say and then as they come in to college and with that factor contributing to this hostile

space in this racial studies class is on in trigger warnings are my progression turning into hate speech so don't you say this environment constantly having everybody focused on race? in the you have offended me and and it could be a leading contributing factor. >> and americans tend to create experiments. so we have to figure out what we will do to figure

out those different policies. the arc i am from the free speeche movement campus but they are thinking about it so americans will do the right they once they have tried everything else. sova it is important to recognize we don't just talk all the time but it is starting to be a dialogueting to and then they have to listen so going back to when i was talking about by the time they get to college they come from a bifurcated community but latinos is 80% segregation still less than 10 percent of the studenttk-ng body k through 12 are white

so this is the first time they start to talk to each other. and yes there are the hypergolic issues will they are college students attend will be hyperbolic so hallowed you do your dialogue? so when you learnu dt that may be a tough conversation that doesn't mean a permanent state the is what it is right now and less for the next generation. >> the one thing that i have

noticed it and i am going back now to see that conversation reestablishedwh with united states has done as we continue want to get to campuses and in part of the reason why the campus environment is bad is because other bad things have happened. there is a sea of racism i believe in the opening of your book you describe black students as swimming proceed of pc's that is strong plank bridge. >> that is gross. that is terrible it iss, figurative. [laughter] >> but to the extent that is the case and i reminded of james baldwin, when he talks

about the fact for black people whites have always been a problem and there is a danger and he says they should be careful that the gates of paranoia the do not close to see where they both respond to what they imagine and that they lose the ability to tell the difference. two. so not only a warning for white people to stop but also black people to be aware of the consequences of living in a situation so looking at rosa parks this is not be arbitrary distinction but it is

important to note. >> next question. >> i am the problem?. >> so when i first read i thought that is absurd but then alleged that the question from a different t angle but they live in a country that is a very racist fellow students would be undeserving and when they are promoted it pervades every interaction some of this imaginary conception

that consumes the black student with the deck is stacked against you and the anti-racists environment that is toxic from many blacks in this country. >> it is possible. [laughter] when i commented publicly a do my best to try to qualify if i feel a high degree of confidence i will say so but my suspicion -- suspicion that is part of the issue. the gist of the question is that when students arrive on campus they are indoctrinated cabellas said

the belief of the world they're ready to inherent that they will face discrimination so that in fact, white supremacy is the rule of the land it rules over our lives and prevent us from accomplishing to be as successful as we could. i don't they get is possible to actually believe that. the most people that you meet have an automatic response to your blackness. and to not be incredibly self-conscious to create a sense of dread.

and doesn't surprise me that when things happen that is exactly what i expected. once we have a narrative we will find it and find it again and we will screamfi loudly to insist you should have been paying attention all along. [laughter] >> so if you are really worried? but i do care about one thing is that imaginary the black student so i was telling you about

74 percent go to a segregated school? what does that mean? so there is nothing wrong about going toch a segregated school but there is a decrease in the amount of funding. so they're walking in not understanding by the way your four times as likely to go to a school where the teachers are not as qualified. they are not sitting appear thinking racism will kill the they think about imus be superhuman to overcome integrated school on college campus have much can i make as much money as possible? they are just as rational the fact we're talking about the young woman to begin in junior not participating inma

a protest. most want to be like kmele but just want to go to school and to get a free and get that degree with not a deficit and walk off into the sunset. but often times i hear these students over and over say they are prevented not from doing it but having the experience to say thisin university really wants me here that is not simply those that the faculty that is your so not to put you on the spot but so to be and

ought to write these ideas so i am not just coming for a check or a job but toor transform society then you educate yourself. >> of those points you made out and segregated school systems are perfect arguments for school choice reform. so it is paramount if you can define your terms also

due to be center activity. >> there is the one this seems more ubiquitous that is predicated based on any sort of racial animus and the other one that is more popular -- popular on college campuses with power plus prejudice is a more succinct way to put it. so which seems more suitable? if they rob african-americans of their agency or paint them as

actors with the autonomy that they are complete the subject? the other seems more universal. . you have two different aspects. what was the first one? you have the exits and all of that for example, the overt

cliché, but i think those are easily dealt with. when we think of the second one isn't necessarily this idea that it's predetermined because we are in a society that is racism plus power but you can't fight against it. one thing about the nature of america and i say this about the kryptonite. at the time we had racism plus cover we still believe in the idea that a young man named barack obama can be the

president of the united states to. barack obama couldn't have been president of the united states without having gone to one of these so-called hostile spaces of getting higher education. you can type the cliché in terms of the supremacist groups and those that are starting on the white supremacy anwhitesupremacu live in a society that is not equal. >> do you want to comment?

>> sure. i think in the beginning of the conversation i tried to at least create some sort of demarcation using the word racism and we talked about it in the context of thinking about explicit acts that are aimed at degrading someone or actual prohibitions against people of other racial groups doing things that are codified into law. i think that is pretty easy to call and to describe as racist. quite frankly today in the environment it sounds like the

word. who has power in that sort of dynamic there is no doubt that there are certain people i feel fine saying just about anything about race. most of you wouldn't take the microphone and do that. you would take a few seconds to ponder whether or not this is the right thing to say. it calls into question whether they are trustworthy and part of the reason is if i show you a picture of a family like eating cake and picnic your score will

rise. from my standpoint when i look at the results and what the studies are generally taking a look at is if it takes longer to respond when you see the picture of a family to respond to the prompts. they are so pleased that there are various ways i can and cannot talk about race without losing my friends were potentially losing my job or maybe just someone will presume i'm kind of a racist. i'm going to take a little bit longer to answer that question.

>> my question you both brought up the question of the definition in the resolution and you didn't answer each other's point. each point you can write a dissertation on but i will try to ask you to address that as succinctly as you can. he questioned environment about the distinction between the college campuses and the rest of the united states. is it about race or just specifically it might have been blackness. if possible in the timeframe we have a bit like you to address the points. >> those that are still online, sorry. but do come up afterwards.

i think you understood the question. repeat the question and give the lady back the microphone. >> he questioned the definition of the environment within the resolution said he was saying that there is less of a distinction between the campus and the rest of the united states. >> i don't know that there is a significant difference between the campus and the united states. i would say that the campuses are in the united states and shaped by the myriad forces. i think the challenge for the objection that i would've level is not specifically about the argument about the campuses being racist places. it's the force that is making them uniquely racist which is that race has played this

incredibly important role in helping to shape our society and helping to produce the outcomes that we have today. and the various issues. a great many things. some of them have been quite good. it's difficult for me to accept an argument when we look back at the past but only sees this thing as the force that is the current that is shaping the society going forward. it certainly has consequences but there's other factors that matter as well. we have any number of programs created to ameliorate the generations of poverty and make

things better. whether or not the programs made things better or worse is an important question that we ought to be asking. there may be a reason that even the drug war is something that in black communities in the 1970s during the first heroine epidemic they were upset that there were not more caucus in their neighborhoods and there were not stiffer penalties. a crack and powder cocaine walls that came into place and generally are regarded today as racist, we actually call it that were created out of the motivation to try to do something about this bad situation that we saw before. so, lots of forces that shaped the world we live in and shape the campuses. i don't think it makes a lot of sense to separate the two from

one another. >> i just want to make sure i get your -- >> did you have anything quite? what comes from it is i'm from african-american but in terms of how the construct that we create means something. money is a social construct and if you want to give me all of of your non- essential and most

important money because we don't believe in it i at the same time we can say fight for this idea that we want to make race and racism something that is in the past we also have the reality of the do know what is here right now. we look at the recent policies and they change over time. we learn and make mistake. was the experience i of the 1980s and the same experience

of the mid-1960s but in terms of the construct and how they see race on the college campus, they do their own and they see their own sense of reality. the racial construct, yes maybe it is a social construct, but we created it and we will have to figure out ways to actually get rid of it. >> think about how you are going to vote for the resolution. you have five minutes to summarize your point of view. >> when i began here talking about one incident at the university of oklahoma about the white students singing about a very crude song and i talked about going back to 1963 and talking about some other

students, the plaintiff was not to be provocative or to see all students and faculty and administrators hate students across the college campuses. they are going for the exact same reason as any other students. they do not want to go on dot college campus and have to deal with the same issues that are going on in the society. african-american students do believe in the educational disneyland and what the teacher told them because they were going to college in that space and it was a place they could transform their lives and families lives. but when we look at the plurality of the racism on the college campuses, and you can't look at them and say they are just all isolated incidents.

you can' can forget the face ofe students that are being demeaned and say you should just get over it. or say we live in a country where a certain segment of the universities are actively trying to tell african-american students you do not belong here and if we want to look at it from race and racism, we would think what is the counterfactual? what about what happens at the colleges and universities is if racism in terms of how we look at it is something that we say is that an inevitable place and on these predominant institutions than those that go to the colleges and universities face the same thing and they don't. i've looked for 60 years and not a single incident treating the universities the way the students are being treated on the predominantly white

institutions. and that is a problem. it is a bigger problem if we look around and think of our kids that we send to these schools and think of them as being good moral people that are not racist but we don't ask them to the anti-racist. if you are going to be a person that is going to change society you have to go and be anti-and you have to be active. coming to this debate, it is important for the white students and faculty and administrators to create a utopian universe that we all talk about a college being as soon as possible. thank you for bringing me here. [applause] >> please summarize your point of view.

one of them that was made, there are universities that are actively telling black students that they don't care about them. but they are not fully people. there is no university in america is not doing that. it is quite the contrary. universities are spending tens of millions of dollars in some cases on programs explicitly designed to bring black students to their campuses. they are investing in and creating units on their campus to take care of the special needs of the students on the campus. and this year graduate students decided to host their own graduation in addition to the regular evaluation.

2017. what on earth are you doing? that seems like a step backwards. it doesn't seem like progress. and they didn't create this in response to a specific event. they created it to deal with as i remember it in order to give themselves and their experience in opportunity to walk the stage together because only they could understand one another. it's possible. it's possible that there is a uniformity of thought and experience and they were being subjected to the manner of the explicit racism that means the only thing one can do is come together to overcome it by looking for the data.

what i have seen instead as the acceptance rate from 2013 to 2016. if you are asian, 26%. if you are hispanic, 59.5%, if you are black, ed 1.2%. they want you desperately. where is the campus that they are saying get out of here? if the response to the event on campus is an occurrence of evenf subversive racism be it real or imagined into very recently we e have an imagined one that was contrived if the chancellor of the school shows up on television and asserts this is not who we are because the

evidence of an effort to undermine people on campus. i just don't understand that. the case hadn't been mad hasn'ty without anything more than assertion and anecdote and the black students in general and particular or as a matter of happenstance. [applause]

.. >> >> lawrence will be selling books at the table and will

be happy to talk to an answer further questions. you are continuing to deliberate and he will vote on the next resolution so tell me when we close the voting? we have some wonderful volunteers who help out if anybody else wants to help out please come up to me after words. so please come up and chat with me. how is the voting going? it looks like we will close the voting. once, twice, three times.

the results? you understand the way to win this debate is not how they voted initially because that was the baseline the position of the audience. but interestingly enough eight-point to% with warrants voting in favor and then up bad 11-point 8% he picked up 3-1/2 percentage points. [applause] but kmele so technically that its year-old goes to kmele. congratulations to you both. [applause]

lorentz will be over at the table. bring your $20 bills if you would like a book. thank you very much.

[inaudible conversations] of good afternoon. i a m. the director of the environmental and energy study institute i'm delighted to welcome you to e