i encourage everyone to look at anne-marie slaughter's new book. >> c-span where history unfolds dai daily. in 1979 c-span was created as a public television by america's cable satellite company.

[inaudible conversations] >> hello, welcome to politics and prose bookstores. please bear with me for a few house keeping details. please take this opportunity to silence your electric devices, sell phones or anything that might make noise. there will be a question and answer question and we absolutely encourage questions. we would appreciate it if you could step up to the microphone to the left so the audience and author can hear you and c-span and our recording can hear you as well. i speak for everyone who has attended an event before asking you to put your question in the form of a question and at the end lean up your chair against sturdy. we are pleased to welcome the

author of the anatomy of terror from the death of bin laden to the rise of the islamic state. he investigated significant terrorism investigates the the bureau. he provides services to the governments and multi national organizations. the ways in which bin laden's death led to the creation of the islamic state. without further ado, please joining me in welcoming our guest to politics and prose. [applause]

>> good evening, great pleasure to be here with you at politics and prose. what i want to do is take about 15-20 minutes to talk about the book and why i wrote the book and i would like to have a more interaction relationship and hearing your questions. i am sure you have a lot of on your find especially with what we are seeing today in manchester and other places. i was assigned to the new york office and did something dumb at the time writing a memo about a guy i believe he is going to be very dangerous and his name was osama bin laden. at the time my immediate supervisors didn't know mup about him but it made to the head of the national security in

the new york office john o'neill. and john new he had an ongoing case held in the u.s. government between the cia of monitoring the activities of this guy who had been trying to create problems. at the time the u.s. government was naming him a financer of terrorism rather than active terrorism operations. after i wrote this memo john told me to focus on osama bin laden.

>> >> we were very successful to stop al qaeda in the networks to conduct plots

from the u.k. and saudia arabia ended in jordan during the millennium there wanted to blow up an a couple of hotels thin border crossings and israel and it would have been different if they were successful to do so. so i have some experience in the organization and the group then 9/11 have been so we destroyed that organization and command and control in afghanistan. many of the leaders escaped escaped, some of them were killed some of them are spending the rest of their lives in retirement in guantanamo bay. some to go to different locations and we hear all of these affiliate's today's specific the al qaeda and

the arabian peninsula and some people have one to assist with the establishment of al qaeda and iran and so forth. so after refinish 9/11 with that investigation with the invasion of iraq it is no longer an organization and it was a message. by the time osama bin modern was killed and places like north ought africa mimi the algeria they have that affiliate's that supports the narrative of the al qaeda even those who pledged allegiance to a zero al qaeda in the balkans.

so was not spreading as a terrorist organization as much as a message but when osama bin laden was killed may 2nd, 2011. i was happy we got him also troubled that if we don't counter that message inherited them and ideology ideology, he will be more popular dead than alive in will be a martyr. in that same night there wrote my concern as the opposite in the new york times in the contacted me to say bin laden was just killed what you think? i was happy that my mentor of

birch nearly -- unfortunately died on an 11 he was helping getting people from the building is he was head of security at world trade center. i lost friends and mentors will along the way. by 60 meters i stand before you and i don't feel any better about the al qaeda network today. sixteen years later we don't have a deep understanding of the network. sixteen years later we don't have a comprehensive strategy to put all of our assets together it is fine

and deity to kill people every now and then in the rest every now and then were to use drones or these other tactics and special operations they do a phenomenal job but it is not fair to just trust that with our intelligence the diplomats as something to do law-enforcement has something to do here since 9/11 most of the tactics have been for anomalies successful. but that without a comprehensive strategy led to a failure so that is why 60 years later almost 20 years after bin laden declared war of the united states we have a group way

more dangerous today than from an 11. --- 9/11. he had 400 members to pledge allegiance to al qaeda. in some of those died. cirio what has for 2,000 people but today al qaeda and ed yemen between four and 5,000 people. to day al qaeda in somalia have up to 7,000. today an organization that could not get their act together they always fought with each other based on rival boundaries, because the arabs will work with the organization was always fragmented, but then they

get together and pledge allegiance there was san algerian so reseed the organization groper pro in to take a vintage of that chaos. that happened because bin laden ordered that to happen before the bullets of the navy seals took him down for girl and then to realize something historic was happening here. they just said hit the united states we can kill

all of these regimes have restored america's of. in now to think of something totally different. do not send people to go to afghanistan. so now we have to focus on the middle east because what we are experiencing today what we did not see in the muslim world. so let's focus to guarantee one is falling into any shadow or yemen to fill that vacuum.

to guarantee that there is no democracy because god forbid they have the ability to jews against sharia so those nonbelievers that the same boat and are equal with their selection with a government that they want? so his commanders understood so with that management of savagery. how they viewed that strategy. so did i. the states was so weak in second to create a vacuum because whoever fills that will be the new dictator.

so then two minutes that chaos and savagery. in then to declare a state you to start a final confrontation with the wife. so to say bin laden told his commanders it means a lot of people will die. lot of muslims will buy. -- died. but we have to kill them to save them. so that order that he gave just before he was killed and in such a phenomenal way. so now you see terrorism as a threat now that is

embedded in geopolitical wars so what is happening in syria is not only a civil war. not only people who want liberty and freedom, that was the beginning of a the geopolitical conflict. and in the gulf states. it isn't about the syrian people but it is being used to score geopolitical points against regional powers. to see that all across the of a conflict zone. of the shia and on the seaside.

-- sunii side. >> so we did not kill al qaeda. those the seals to it down the messenger but unfortunately not the message. is 16 years after 9/11. to have agreed -- greater understanding of the enemy. if you know, your enemy and yourself do we know our enemy at that level? so after an 11 what do we called the enemy? led to

recall them? losers. [laughter] >> so to have no understanding with the enemy is. so every time we have a disaster and not to imagine is something like this could happen. but they called the 9/11 attack that every time they talk to people of the intelligence and law-enforcement community we cannot imagine a plane would hit a building. and then to testify and for to congress.

because the imagination is limited in the understanding is limited with their own expertise so what do we need to do? to expand our imagination. and not in the colloquial sense but empathy to understand the motivation the views of history in religion so this is what

gives us a better understanding of how they operate. in so i hope in this book in a small but a way to contribute to better understanding. i did not want to write a terrorism book or a book about policy or geopolitics or why this happened. that is not what this book is all about. it is about delving into the personalities and characters of people in the men who crossed so much bloodshed and suffering in so from the

beginning i start with bin laden so his relationship with his commanders in senior members of the al qaeda and how he would micromanage al qaeda. he was micromanaging though way they operate or the training manuals. in micromanaging the organization. and how the views changed

from 9/11 and was so concerned and to say we have the condition of no idea what we're talking about perot said to treen slate everything to french. so to be a micromanage your in so many ways. from the time you -- he left afghanistan to the time he was killed by the navy seals but then to get the legions and all the different commanders. and then to be number two with a cockeyed the.

-- al qaeda pro and also one of the founding members. in the egyptian and special forces and very loyal to bin laden. he saw this man as the original numbers no. do not do that. and that ithers told him no. they did not get the votes but decided to go anyway.

so now to be in a position so to introduce al qaeda from the beginning and that goes to all the different affiliate's. so it isn't dave terrorism book says those sec create images and bloodshed. so to understand that organization but to help the al qaeda for the person who was instrumental but in the old days used to be the

chief of staff. and then suddenly to be killed that day checkpoint by the somali forces. and of making any conclusions or judgments of who killed him, but the most road affiliate's that gave waziristan so much headache and there is ogata of ideological differences and how bin laden viewed the because there's not a member of the outcry that it afghanistan. so later he became the al

qaeda member. so basically anybody that disagrees with you and in iraq alone. but is the biggest to me province sarah kelly and his henchmen care field called to evacuate the town and this to the city's drug any legitimate scholars most of the henchmen were from north africa so the whole thing did not start the result is there among the groups. so just to establish a committee so to take it easy.

so why do you be head people? a bullet can do the job. they're all for the killing but how? be heading makes people not like desperate to we have a brand to protect us. so that is the root of the decision of that global jihadi movement because isis has a group has established so after you read the chapter and to make to lecter from their perspective so with that

jihadi movement in the middle east and now we have yemen today into revenue bloodline for al qaeda because those affiliate's was in syria. so to sent commanders to set up that affiliate. so the syrian jihad is different. we need our own affiliate's.

and then go to the leader and ask them. syria and rand iraq are different. so you believe in those divisions? no, no, no. so now we hear the to followers of osama bin laden. so the reason i tell you this story is greasy is given say a message. so does a really matter? so that ideology implanted into the heads from osama bin laden so there is a message

so if you want to drown the narrative with the war syria or iraq or yemen. that is like trying to put down a kitchen fire. and that imagery to where people can and go. with those allies and enemies that utilize civil wars to score points and they are betting their ideology and message in the middle. with a geopolitical complex. so where are we today? that means remaining and expanding for pro so at the

same time to build that network to benefit greatly. so al qaeda is happy with isis sole figure on them until we are ready. there is no caliphate. so what happens to the members of isis?. >> go back to the mother organization they will lot if it is the original leader he is so boring i want to

blow myself up just to stop listening to him. [laughter] he never did anything that was successful he has failed every part of his life so the older guys have a tough part to play no pun intended so what they will do is i can see after isis ceases to exist first he is young, and

a millennial and trained over the last seven years of the top commanders of al qaeda they do not have access to their counsel and married to the number two person of al qaeda daughter who has been involved in other terrorist acts that have happened against us with the east africa bombings itself. and already has had five instances they always would call him brother but in the last message the announcement and the message they refer to him as sheik you cannot have the leader

status without being called sheik. so now you will see something interesting. he never attacks isis are mentions a the caliphate. so what is happening in iraq and syria in somalia. that is happening everywhere. they are the followers of osama bin maudlin to say you people in the west so with his tone he tried to copy his father and his message is identical. and those statements where

he gave his commandments to the west he said look, don't just take a knife. and always leave a message. and i am telling you why. sow number one. the land of though full places we did not hear that since osama bin modern died or 9/11. he brought that back for pro if we don't live in peace in palestine and that is something bin laden said himself a little so we have

not heard that in how long? a lot of long time ago. we did not hear that. only one thing he did not have his father talked about. the murders of the saudi regime. and because they are supporting them. he cannot, and not to mention syria but bringing back the original message of osama bin laden for girl and with those fiery speeches

and he told his father when i was in jail you'll be proud of me and learned about this and that so now i ready to march with the new russia dean -- mujahedin under your commander. so his wife who has a ph.d. older than him and only one son. choose not just a wife but his adviser. but he missed his wife after she was in jail in iraq seven or eight years and threatened his commander of you not bring her here that

i will go bring her here so what you mean? now we know why because he wanted her to basically work on his statement on the tenth anniversary of 9/11. and when they could not bring her to him, he was convinced by the end sent her a letter the tenth anniversary is coming so i told the chief of staff to buy you a computer. and then to follow in her father's footsteps. the woman like the father and the sun.

and then to claim that much. or claim the ownership. so then we killed them but then the story did not even begin. they akio. i will take questions. [applause] >> sova strategy to kill

them out or drive them off, we have messages with social media. and the kinds of things that they do. so if he would listen to you . so what would you suggest? and as you probably expected and i will try to simplify that. last chapter of the book there believe in the message it is like a hydra and how do we kill that? we have to deal with the threat.

so what are those incubating factors? sow number two and then to louis settled those scores. and then that the narrative the united states and the west is at war with islam that is what you have to fight back. they killed way more muslims they pull up the mosque for the profit. so they have to expose them

i could do any government in the world and the united states. and then to say doorway. and then to have those communities it is going to be different because that approach of the united states is very different of belgium or france or germany. or just like brussels we don't have that. and those who are alienated

were disenfranchised and then to be inspired by the message and to see that in orlando. and then to develop a message based on the threat we have here at home how to make that message inclusive. so that fits under the strategy. and then that isn't even a strategy. so that is the definition of insanity.

so only those three or four things that i mentioned. so you can see that we need diplomats. so those under in these terrorist groups. and you have to put that on the table. we don't have enough bullets or handguns. so that is a difference from one country to another but there is one common factor today the civil wars that brought new blood that is

why we have 5,000 foreign fighters from the former soviet republic we have about 40,000 foreign fighters to join those groups in iraq. now 20 percent went back to their country and we concede that have thick they could create. some people are still there that can still instigate or inspire or convince family members or friends back home from the results of the investigation. so i wish that solution is as easy. >> good evening.

fake fee-for-service. -- thank you for your service. so in recent days to cut off from access?. >> they realize they needed more than we need them. >> also today the national security staff had to clean up his mass so to speak after his speech at nato. [laughter] so what are the long-term consequences of baskets of the night -- schizophrenic approach?. >> i love that. i know they will kill me but can i say that? larry is a

mentor of mine. so the first question of the information sharing with our partners i was a ball 17 years ago targeting those libyan fighting groups with the of manchester police that have total jurisdiction over the of greater city of manchester. those that handle terrorism are based out of london. so after an 11 they combined. so i had the pleasure to work with them. and i have nothing but amazing respect for our partners in the u. k

proposal to be involved in the highly sophisticated investigation and they know how firsthand how frustrating it is to work against time to figure out who the terrorists are and to repress them then suddenly the best information that you have given you the upper hand you see it on cnn or the new york times it is so frustrating. i also think it is dangerous and risks life and is reckless. and they need to be held accountable. i don't blame those in the united states settled think that is fair. said to talk about the bomb or the detonator i happen to

trust that "the new york times" said they get their pictures by sources by british law enforcement by the old think they would say they got resources of the british government if the pitchers are from united states so why do they say british? so i totally agree with the british colleagues that it was leaked in the united states but with the international investigation investigation, no one to repeat what i said how much i hate leaks but it is international investigation but to rest his father and brother there is a lot of

frustration and to understand how it is dealing with that imminent threat. to raise that terror threat to critical. and to see where you have on taliban a very frustrated that i am not there yet to blame all of the leaks to the people of the united states maybe of the united states but maybe not the law enforcement or intelligence community i am not there yet >> the. >> previously the relative

balance between military aid balance so since the cruise missile strikes began so the of missiles have been a very swiss army knife with that vendor should use the military tactics with the strategies with favorable public results?. >> a fake that is a very good question we're always in defense of our military because they do the job very well and amazing what they do but i don't think it is fair to have them deal with the incompetence these of washington. afghanistan is the longest war.

more than all of them altogether. we have been there because under three different administration they are breaking a deal in afghanistan. so what washington does best is kick the can down the road for girl what? 73,000 miles away from home? so to never know the meaning of central government? so the strategy is that the russians used 10 years did not work for them either? where are the diplomats? how we have a deal in afghanistan? we cannot put

a red line around everything were to kick out the taliban and the politicians failed to deliver and then say we will stay in afghanistan. just because they do a phenomenal job that does it mean to trust them to do every job. >> i find a use day very interesting because the intrigue within the organization but what concerns me not just your presentation, but we don't seem to understand ourselves

we don't know what he has done in the name of america. and throughout the world. if it is a shame that we use our young people to fight these wars too low we have contributed to, to clean up our own mess. so beyond the intrigue to understand those true dynamics of what we have done of which exist how to the grass bush is going on -- grasp what is going on? the world pass to move. >> my answer is knowledge of that is exactly the reason i

wrote this book and the reason i wrote it the way it is titled. is there but i'm not giving a lecture but to come to the conclusion that torture was right you will come to the conclusion that the iraq war was in our national security interest were come to the conclusion about our alliances in the region will work san does not work i do not lecture you come to your own conclusion but the facts would get them as the bad guys see them. i do call them the bad guys i fought them for so many years they are bad guys and they are evil the you can make your own conclusions. we don't have a deeper understanding of the enemy.

the biggest problem that we have is the war on terror that it is not like we did not understand the enemy but we forget who we are as a nation and we lost our moral compass. so that gives you an idea the. >> do we create those enemies. >> lp apple get to their own conclusions. >> so with the united states perspective compare with the russians? can really trust them to be a true allied?. >> yes.

i don't know if garett is an agreement between the pentagon and intelligence community of to approach syria or russia but i thought it was interesting after they spoke to the leaders to lose a significant opportunity to speak to 50 people better autocrats or dictators in spoke with them as he was speaking to the muslim world and said iran has been a menace in the region for so many decades since the revolution because his beloved -- has blocked and all the shia militia would

be handed to them if not for the russians so that is the russian and support on a grounder those russian bombings. so there is something here though we're not including russia which is part of the problem as much as hezbollah or all of the players in the region so this is what we need to figure out can we fight this form of terrorism because it is only to protect moscow. natalie geopolitical but terrorism perspective those that come from the former soviet republic to join al qaeda and isis in syria and

if i want to kill them and syria i don't want them to come back. so there is something we can work with the russians but i don't think there is trust purporting there is a significant gap between us and a lot of so-called allies. >> why do i have a prejudice of the islamic clergy does not come forward more?. >> i think because you do not use google because they stand up against it most people in the muslim world are against it. i don't see eye to eye with you because to speak out against the muslim world so why did they kill black

people in a church in charleston? because dylan only represented himself by being brainwashed the and radicalized. i am not one of these guys who say they're not speaking up for standing up to 95 percent of the victims are muslim looking at seriously or iraq or yemen people are dying on the front lines it is in the clash of civilizations but it is the shia and thus unique feeling each other in the turks kerry the arabs and the persians. with the russian czars they are battling each other from the 16th and 17th century history is not over.

>> thanks for your service. i am wondering how do you think we should approach the problem to spread negative radical ideology? but like places then belgium and france and germany. >> how do we go about actually combating this radical ideology that is less rational of the interpretation?. >> but this is something we have seen since 1917 after

some radicals took the mosque hostage in mecca they felt that they needed to do something to cater to the more extreme elements in their society to create another alliance of the religious establishment. so basically they said why will you fight? so later the king said maybe i should call myself the protector for pro wide you want to fight them when you could fight those infidels of russians? so the day supported them to say they're riding a tiger so get off. so then they said iran tries to expand the revolution.

we have to counter iran so the sunii and the muslims will believe the allies. -- though why is it so that backfired and in the old days we saw in indonesia and now it is happening again and said the me to support groups like popeye the was okay because they are the moderate. and this was one of the things they wish the president forced the saudis to do and because of the torture in the radiology we need to hold them accountable because they will be targeted and to be

hurt by this terrorist threat. i think in the united states we need to create a cyberspace you can radicalize it -- radicalize yourself to be a white supremacist but our space does not exist. so now we are creating a madison avenue silicon valley to gather in order to create a platform that can be inclusive of who we are as a nation as a melting pot the shining city on the hill. ronald reagan used to say you cannot -- you can live in england your never

considered an english man but if you live in america you are in american. let's go back to that purpose that is what made america great so we cannot say this is only for the muslim community everybody else will saddam know what you talk about but these people who can barely speak in english and look like a year from pakistan to say now this is not representative of the muslim community. and they don't ask me how i feel about that perot --. because hate and extremism and tolerances the american value. see you can educate and

connect and do with it whatever you want to stand up against white supremacist any way you want. because most of the problems we have an american is based on the kennedy. . . -- ted kennedy. . . >> a specific set of theological

interpretation of how these groups see the world today. [inaudible question] >> i do want to say that i am really admiring you. i have admired your totally rational stance against torture. >> thank you. very smart lady. i'm joking. >> my question is to talk about, it just seems death runs through all of what is extremist are thinking about killing other people but also death as a martyr and treasure were certainly preached.

i do not see how you combat people -- >> i mentioned that some people really want to go to heaven, we should give them a ticket and then let them go and see the 69 to 79 versions of what they're going to get over there. [laughter] i think what is going to happen is that we need to discredit the ideology to prevent more people from joining. we cannot sustain what is happening by allowing more and more people to join. people are joining not because of the ideology, people are joining because of the images

they see in civil war areas. people are joining because of problems in europe. people are joining because of secretary is on. everybody gets into this kind of universe and orbit there's a different gravity that sucked them on. i think we need to have a solution that based on different regions and countries. what we need to do first is to protect our own country by developing a comprehensive strategy inside the united states to limit these kind of extremism. and then engage with diplomatic initiatives in order to express our friends and foes around the world that there is no gain here. you need to help not give them

$250 billion worth of weapons to add to the fire that is already raging in places like yemen and syria. not go in front of the muslim world and talk about how many hundreds of billions of dollars you get and jobs, i love jobs, believe me, who does it. i want these things to come to america. we are talking in a muslim world where millions of people are hungry in refugee camps. you're talking to the muslim world where most of them have no electricity 247. here talking in a muslim world where children are dying any see pictures of what is happening in yemen you're talking in a muslim world that more than 65% of young people do not even have jobs. you're talking to a muslim world that is a total mess and you told tell them i just took about 300 trillion out of your money,

jobs, jobs, jobs thank you. >> the substance of the speech is great because the bar so low. they do not say radical islamic extremism, great, i love the rhetoric but the substance itself is disastrous because that is what hezbollah's now using, getting her money if you have time google the declaration of jihad and compared to the summit that took place, we went backward. >> thank you for that talking questions. the book is available if you

would like your copy sign please line up to my left ear right thank you. [inaudible] [inaudible] >> this weekend, we're live at the chicago tribune book fair, without look at the most non- popular books. topping the list is jd vance. followed by animal, vegetable to eat locally grown food for an entire year after that an

autobiography with stage iv lung cancer. when breath becomes there. 's on the list is daily show host, trevor's memoir of growing up in apartheid south africa. followed by the undoing project by michael lewis which details the nobel prize-winning work of two israeli psychologists. i look at the most popular nonfiction books continues with the life-changing magic of tidying up by marie condo. as you all know number eight on the list is national book award winning author ta-nehisi coates on the current state of black america, in between the world to me. that is followed by the south side natalie moore who weighs in on segregation, wrapping up our most popular look according to the chicago library is the report on the political right, strangers in their own land.