of opportunity that so many of us talk about. some other places in their own state. and that what you you is to take care of people from the salvation army to the ymca with an adviser brent civic life. so what we have to do domestically as somebody who left my own home town, but many similar nations saudia connect the businesses in those places? so how do we

make sure they are connected to the value of the broader network?. >> this seems that your book lines up very nicely with your next book that i hope you'll write. so that is the biggest challenge of the time so the first time to be disconnected from that opportunity in that is made possible like all of those who are immigrants and it

sounds like you have a pretty good answer to help you write that down in another book but until that time my note everybody looks set your newest book. great to be with you. >> i enjoyed it. great conversation.

. >> the implicit argument with that opposition movement. so to have some background about the book it is only two blocks from the house of truth. and i was reading that bin biographical note with that biography of oliver wendell holmes in his young friends. so that set off a label bin my head with a little bit of

research and here we are it is finally done with a bigger undertaking than renew i had a book. to the task commissioner of indian affairs. and started the salon with the justice department and then if they were in the house. >> date never to have the of printer's row lift fast yesterday we heard fromom national book award winner

and many more today we have another full lineup. booktv on c-span to live from chicago starts now. [inaudible conversations] >> welcome to the 303rd a dual printer's row lit best things to a sponsor's this program will be broadcast t live there is time at the end of the q&a sessioned at th

please use the microphone at the center of their room for the whole viewing audience before we begin today's program please welcome our introduce your from the chicago tribune. [applause] >> i am so excited about this book and heather ann thompson touche talk about it. i got this book is seems like nine months ago i read it quickly end found out it was a story of the '70s.it's bld

so in short it is "blood in the water" i read this book i that we have to get her for the printer's row lit fest and then how smart we looked. and then to win the prize of history. [applause]'s reall it was really wonderful as an extraordinary book but it is so much more with the social history if it is fantastic to be the investigative reporter with that 10 years of research it is the engrossing read so who was responsible? what

the hell happened and what the implications are for this crazy country of ours. so i will turn it over to have their to be at cornell '04 michigan and then after that i hope you go to the back to bite and then read the book. >> i am so honored to be here today because so many historians are here and then

into the research of the book it has been so gratifying for pro and also it is a vehicle to bring attention to issues that are the most central and to just so iart of the conversation with this put the valley to start off by saying talking about at the cover first as day labor historian, and know how you would define your early trading but what about doing this research?.

>> thanks for coming out to talk about the book. the book itself was a real journey so the story of why i started to write it is now two different stories. restarted because at thehe time i considered myself a h labor and civil-rights historian. event t it did happen behind bars so i was intrigued to write bad history. but the to caveat is bin had to seal all of the records with regards to this story so getting a book contract and to realize i am not sure

i can write to this book that and know how i will get access. misidentify a journey to understand. it was like a light bulb in the middle of doing this and then mr. to lock up everybody in 40 years to become the world's largest jailers with some of the worst conditions ever.this still somehow to end up in this mass 40 years later. so with this particular

protest in so many people have heard of attica but maybe not a lot or with their understanding is affected by those press accounts so started to set the stage of what happened of those conditions that led to attica. >> it is a tiny town upstage. and there were 2400 men and over crowded and suffering in humane conditions being given one square tore the paper per day then nazi the children if they were not

married to the mother. and having to deal with those rules and they tell the story a lot to symbolize the degradation but then the administration would and you that outdated phone book to say you cannot leave until you have written to an employer and they agreed to hire use the not too many were told to higher with a postmark of attica correctional facility you had to pay for the stamps and the paper and nobody had money somewhere was degrading conditions and ultimately and then back asking for basic improvements in conditions. for long days and nights

just like tom wicker from "the new york times."e also those conservative state legislators and they agree they have legitimate claims the negotiations seem brute going well. and then they take this withor brutal force and then the 500 state troopers and also those corrections officers and everyone is immobilized in the shootings began over 50 minutes with those

prisoners and guards alike. inundate torture these men four days and weeks it was the hardest part of the book to write to read most extraordinarily to tell the entire world what happened that the prisoners killed the hostages and that is profoundly important so that a story that i thought would be the rebellion is a the cover-up so the book is about one-third of rebellion in two-thirds of the cover-up so talk about how

we are struck by a conversation so talk about what the resolution was. and then to be those hostages with those efforts. so talk about the aftermath. tht >> and then when it ends after five days in bed with the state of new york espying cases not is the

troopers that killed andop tortured people but the prisoners for repelling.d thei and the attempts to be heard they cannot do anything while the criminal trials and the hostages are swindled the then to say go ahead. en battements and then to sue the state when the guards were swindled them left with poverty.and it so not in tow the criminal trial was resolved and that

takes its way to go through the court and then to show the state was libelous damages to be had. and then ultimately had to settle with the state. and then $8 million. india was barely anything.w mane but that brings the hostages together. because this state still has

not apologized for admitted responsibility or has opened the records. we're still demanding the records be opened.t the pr >> so talk about the process co researching the book. in to talk about the history of attica but and also that reveals a lot. so could you talk about what challenges you face to? and with that process or this different sources? and the

challenges they faced?. >> so those historians you may not know how they write books and the first top of the archives. and then we go through themin t but the problem in this case is because all of thend paperwork and then the criminal trials in the investigative files then the civil litigation files thousands of boxes of information and could not get to any of if you filed a freedom of information

request and then you just need to keep asking that question and then to extrapolate.ink how that i was forced to think how we rally to about thean '60s and '70s and at was humbled to understand there was so much about this period we don't have a clue or how history actually thatened. so no for example the black panther party was decimated by the end of the '70s but now we have the clue behind b that destruction or similarly i was able to gets abt

quite a bit peeved and i don't know that half of whatg is going on behind the scenes so glass the copy or the original and think about the survivors. they never stop talking it was also a matter of thinking the autopsy reports to the local coroner have them? and then going back to the original source but i still could not answer was how could it be 39 people were shot to death 128 shot total.

in not one member of law enforcement ever is held responsible.ry locke so that is the story in those investigative files so i just happened upon this whole stash of records i didn't think anybody knew was there so we could peas that together. >> do we not know those records were available to you?. >> once i found them was a crazy moment are their cameras? a huge wall of thousands of pages of related documents so this

was in 2006 such as take pitchers i said there was no smart phone we don't get those until 2010 we did not have the technology so it was a crazy story to take as many notes as i could asking if i could see rocks which by the way i gave them a $200 check they died because now i have the check because right before a the books came out a reporter tried to find the records and they are not there anymore. my so that was my deepest fearhe ba so until the book came out last year i did not want to tell anybody what was there

because they hoped the book would come al then the footnote would make it clear that everybody would demand to see them and there wouldn't be time to get rid of them but there clearly was. >>. >> the us check is for the copies in the road on the check to.ro >> so we're proves that they were there. >> for what i said was true when they're on that day and took copies and they paid for those copies. >> what was in those records it particularly that should not be released?. >> the investigative files. so members of the attorney general's office tour charged with here out what went wrong and to set their sights on investigative

law-enforcement but to have a ton of evidence despite the fact by the way to know that that it was the same body that was in charge of investigating. so needless to say photographs were doctored. to change hand to witness and the two most important things that i found of the internal document that the rockefeller administration and head of the state police

and the attorney general's office in that document reveals they knew they would kill hostages when they went in which they denied. and i fell though whistleblowing document with an incredibly important hero who could see they were trying to prosecute the police and was blocked every turn.on he's so he finally please -- pieces together why he would shut down because rockefeller is sitting in nomination hearings for the vice presidency. so riding with his 67 page document so that is only

three copies ever made. >> it will never happen again. >> so talk to us we read on the 13th century there is something about writing history so talk about the process to be part of that uprising to talk about their involvement may be even after the book has come now to -- come out to talk to some people were day

desperate? what was your experience?. >> that is a great question. we are not equipped to deal with contemporaries. and then to recount that that is entirely different thing. and then at some point and broke down so it is clear early on it was dramatic that they were suffering ptsd for what they experienced prisoners for hostages to this day some cannot function without shutting down if i was not prepared for that and it

made me feel a much greater responsibility how the story would be told but that said said, i hope what i did to tell from multiple vantage points. one minute you are in the yard at the negotiating table to a understand what they are trying to do brawls with the hostage the circle or the house of the hostage families or your nixon's white house when he is asking rockefeller which is basically was this about the blacks? and the rockefellerwa says indeed so he is okay with the cordage as long as it was led by the blacks. so people remain diagnose some of the survivors cannot read the full book. it is too much.more que

>> the first question is this started off as a civil-rights mystery so knu talk about with that trajectories of mass incarceration are part of the history of the struggle of white supremacy or civil rights history.ci day you still of think of itit as a civil rights story?. >> i do. no question everybody inside attica black and white and brown understood this was not just about incarcerating people but subjugation you cannot understand the brutality of this retaking

without understanding the interracial terms to mention they were made to do the white power salutes and crawl into the black prisoners there were considered leaders were shot with an x on their back one of the guys that is tortured most severely every beat of the baton or cigarette burn people were sodomized, this was punctuated with racial epithets. so on the one hand it is a fundamental reminder of racial subjugation not just public safety but on the other hand, what i did not know that this really was a human rights story if you look at the photograpphotograp hs in my book is the pictures of the

men that were stripped and lined up to read the gauntlets. there were a lot of white men and they all stood together those 1300 men negotiated and elected leaders to speak for them in the yard. the democratically elected leaders to make sure every speech was translated into spanish for those prisoners as well.ta at the end of the day there is so much repression in the book, you will read it and shake your head at the revelation that everybody with power who could haved done the right thing from the lowest level clerk to the supreme court literallyrall and the justice department

girl called upon and everyone fails. on either hand it is the incredible human rights story because they never go away. when the book came out last september in preparation for the anniversary, prisons across the country on september 9th were reminding us in the last 45 years because we got this so wrong we allowed the state to tell the story instead ofsi the people inside the prisons are worse today onene of those prisons ryan from a michigan as we speak here tonight they are held in solitary for daring to protest we don't know what is happening to them because

we pay for these institutions. they are public we pay for them and we don't have a clue what happens inside. >> so anybody that is interested in asking a question please step to the microphone. therein is a real charge how you call a historian's worked the you are too involved in the current will mature the contemporary work so how do you think of the role of offers -- authorsour ow

with those varying visions for social change? do you think that needs to be put in a box? because of course, your work is being used in president conversation about the crisis of mass incarceration >> i think we set >> we have a false dichotomy that somehow if you investigate something then tell people what you thinkmy the conclusion of the investigation that somehow you put aside your objectivity to become rabbi is activist i think it is related you are a historianve and have looked at this in every possible way with every scrap of paper, event if that conclusion has a

bearing as a human being toto day then i think we have an obligation to share it and to keep them isolated i think that is where the criticism should go to help us understand where we have been we need to share that the book that has just come out is incredibly important how did we get to the punitive moment or with these tough politics to embrace that led us down this path? and you cannot read your book as well to say now i get what we did wrong.i migh and how i might do that differently.

so the highest level of research integrity. >> as you were speaking was thinking currently on a national level talking about the state level suppression of evidence basically a and concurrently contemporarily with the torture report from the united states senate we have never see the actual report just a summary from dianne feinstein in the head of the intelligence committee was interviewing director comey they have called back all copies of the report and basically they are trying to suppress it so we will never know the basic issues to note that torture does not work if you

interview most americansill sa most will say it is bad but it works but that is not true. so i wonder if you are so wiped out from this is this it for you? or are there some other ways they will hear another story?. >> thanks for calling attention to the current lack of transparency in our federal government right now but i think that probably will not be me but no question that will be somebody because whether you are republican or democrat if you were part of the public as a taxpaying citizen of the country or resident you have a responsibility in their right to know what is going

on pearl lung don -- to know what is going on. but a special about prisons or torture to have more access that makes those secrets harder to keep. >> so with your stories of separation to open the investigation so now director call me comes out to explain how he was fired. so do you believe that the investigation could be suppressed?. >> yes. not the level we will never know because i have an incredible faith that with

some reporters say and investigators demanding evidence i don't think any secret will be safe forever. but is it a cover-up? of course. the idea is to make sure people who have benefited financially or politically are not held accountable. so what transcends local government or federal government we have a right to now -- and though. >> will preface the question to say i spent eight years as a of rehabilitation counselor in wisconsinn prisons and my experience was that the older officers basically felt and probably

many others that if you do the crime you do the time for pro some were not happy to see yes coming in towh provide services while they are there or to help with plans when they get out like a halfway house were the evaluation and that the workshops they felt we were bleeding heart liberals but at any rate we didn't have obstruction. i don't think there werere things going on there in wisconsin for instance that word from other places like collusion between officers or inmates in terms of drugs or anything like that. so what is the outlook? i

stopped working there 40 years ago so i don't know now but in general across the country we hear broglie's prison cell in california and arizona with is the al look for those services actually taking place?. >> that is a great question.o co many people could speak to this that are working on a very directly with lawyers to improve conditions people trying to rehabilitate or improve conditions. but the fundamental problem that the book underscore is we have to complete the rethink how we deal with the question of so-called wrongdoing or their crimeme

and making in the country. there has to be greater attention to equal justice under the lot.k this ide and to rethink the idea we make society better by putting human beings in cages there is evidence that works but abundant evidence that it doesn't. salvi might improve the conditions i am for a capital to millie whatide a vatican shows or any trip inside a prison shows there are better ways to deal with problems putting people in cages make cards and prisoners in communities less safe and it destroys families they hope will we're headed for is the discussion how to improve prisons but hardly imagine dealing with social problems

differently than puttingca people in cages? [applause] >> i knew one of the survivors of that calf from detroit for pro they and the uprising inspired old generation of revolutionaries like we and all over the world so they can for this book's. [applause] so we're under a regime even more brutal and vicious and the rockefeller york. so what would lead you say to today's resistors for

example, there is a strike going on right now a full sum present and i urge people to support that.t >> the key for that. yes that period of the '60s and '70s shows ordinary human beings can change the policies they and culture and it is but a pass to havengea faith and imagination that it can happen sometimes starg people have no faith so that starts having their faith that this is not permanent. so let's make sure it changes in a more progressive direction. so if you allow people to tell the media and the press what happens if it is not

true then you have the generation will turn against this generation so it is imagining we can do this differently. [applause] did t >> in regarding to overturn the agreement from the hostages the union that represents thousands of correction officers this is of significant reform. >> that is a great question of getting a lot becausesons as they do labor history of prisons as well so my position is we have a false problem with putting correction officers against prisoners so some of those

guardians have been incredibly repressive thinkst os most of those acts like employer associations if you looked at the worst states union they don't even have a guardian to put a call on them is a red hearing but they don't actually want to work in a prison but they just want to work so it could be working class issueafei private guard everybody deserves safe workingom conditions to come home in one piece that everybody on the inside cannot have a criminal record then i was gratified at the convention two years ago used the term mass incarceration numerous times to condemn that to say

this is not good for any of us. we need jobs that do not depend on the army and other people to lock them up and a lot of people agreed but we have to have these discussions across these lines per barrel .>> i see >> i see this as a pendulum a couple of sun's have been incarcerated and one of them has lost his eyes with the k rodney king he bent made cameras of police fast withe disclosure of what goes on in the field kattegat that into penal institutions? i guess the editorial is we want to the balance for the

policeman to feel they can go into a neighborhood to eradicate the bad guy but wekn don't want people not to be persecuted. >> i am very sorry to hear about your son because unfortunately your story is of countless countless countless american families. the answer to how we get transparency is all of those countless families are supported to speak up to say if i pay for the institution you put my children here then are my mother or brother or sister then we have a responsibility to know what goes on inside full stop. the legislative level of thesh federal level should be a demand and access should be right and a demand so when

somebody is inside at the mercy of their captors we have a sense of assurance they get health care, not abused and that they will not come now worse than when they went in and we have none of that. thinks for speaking up. [applause] thank you for talking wrote this book this will continue to a vanzetti's conversations. [applause]

[inaudible conversations] to heather. in just a few minutes we will be back with more of the chicago tribune printers row lit fest.

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