indication to -- congratulations to henry olsen for this new book and please buy books they're for sale and they'll all by their autograph their books. thank you for coming. [applause] [inaudible discussion]

hello, everybody, to and thank you for coming out tonight. we are pleased to have laura caldwell and leslie kleiner to present their new book. this is a long-running series of estrins story. we have chuck at our colfax store on friday at 7:00 and we also will be having craig johnson will read his latest book, the highwaymen, and tonight we are happy to get started with this and welcome laura caldwell and leslie klinger. laura is a director of life

after innocence at loyola university school of law. the author of 14 novels including the series and long way homer. leslie klinger is a best assaulting author and editor therefore. apracticing lawyer and a member of the baker street irregulars. thank you for being here. >> thank you so much, and thanks to tattered cover, one of the most respected and venerable independent book stores in our nation, which is something to be proud of at a time when it's been a little challenging. it's such an amazing store. i literally wanted to sign here since my first book, "burning the math by pi. this is my 16th book and here we go.

i want to start from this side of the room with introductions because i'd like to end with this gentleman. but i want to thank you for coming out tonight to discuss wrongful convictions and innocence in our society today. this book, "anatomy of innocence" was envisioned as way to help people understand if at all possible what it is like to be behind the eyes, inside the soul, for just moments of time of an exonerate it, someone who was wrongly convicted, imprisoned and eventually released.

we're good friend see ave the mystery circuit, there are conferences for everyone, every job in the world these days, which i think is fantastic, and we go to conferences with lee childs and various mystery authors and everyone was always say to me, you do this innocence work, and actually what i do is after innocence work. i'll introduce you to people who do actual innocence work. i had this great fortune to work on one case where i represented a gentleman who was wrongfully accused of murder, charged witch death penalty murder, and then who set in a holding cell for six years without a trial until my girlfriend found him, literally stumbled on him in jail. we represented him and i wrote a book about him called "long way home: a young man lost in the system and the two women who who found him. "now order to sort of devote some of the proceeds from the

book to an after innocence cawed i had the great pleasure to miami so many people in the innocence network and people at northwestern and university of chicago. all these people doing amazing innocence work where they are getting thousands of letters a day, and they're having lawsuits and various people look through and try to see if there are these -- cases they think might be innocence cases where they might be able to help, and what we found out was that they were also struggling to help people get out. most of the innocence workers, so to speak, and innocence attorneys i know have spent so much of their own money helping people out after they are innocent. so, we started something -- at loyola law school in school called life after innocence, and jordan rogers, one of my devoted

students, where the law students and the students in general with life of innocence represent people who were wrongfully convicted and exonerated, and the hope is that they help. the start their lives over by getting their records cleaned up. i'll ask clarence about that. but just because -- dna can show that you did not commit a crime, and it may show who did in fact commit the crime. you could have a front page headline that says, innocent, you could be on the front page with the district attorney going, i'm so sorry. that's probably not going to happy but if that was the case, you will still walk down the street and apply for a job and they will say, whoa, no, no, no i'm sorry. hr -- doesn't matter what the paper says and i don't care what -- you can have barry

anti-semitic call -- bearry, bearryscheck. one of the port important things to is a place to live, money to start over. arguably your good name in our society, your record is also extremely important. so our students helped them to get their records cleaned up and we helped pass legislation in the state of illinois so far and we're hoping to branch out that will help exonorees. most states have nothing on the regs fore xonorees. as i started this in 2009 i was still writing mysteries and thrillers and some romantic comedies and these wonderful mystery authors kept saying, can we help? can we help? and frankly issue was like, lee child, you and jack reacher, love you.

don't know what you can do for my client antoine day, who we feature in the book and who was released to no fanfare at all, released on to a street corner the rain, no one, nothing, not a phone. so, in any event, when the mystery authors kept reaching out, we finally sort of brainstorm i and i thought what if each of these amazing authors, people like sarah, pat turrow, and we have the only unpublished arthur miller piece since his death, and i'll tell you about that in a minute. we basically paired these amazing writers, the head writer for how house of cards "and jamie, jan burke, awesome writers and paired them with the

exonoree and asked them to just tell one snapshot of what it was like to be wrongfully convicted. we are not trying to retraumatize these individuals or trying to traumatize you as readers. we're trying to do and can go you do is say, now that our society thankfully is starting the -- the wheels are starting to turn and we're starting to recognize that wrongful conviction happen of it's a human system. of course they happen. this is not -- frankly i don't think it should be such a great source of embarrassment. this not a factory. this as human system. it is human behavior we're judging, and humans are judging it. humans -- whether you're a judge, jury, prosecutor, this is an entirely human system. it is going to happen. let's face it. so, the thought is, as we are starting to recognize that, we also have to stop and say, what was it like and no one knows what it's like but the

exonorees. but we thought thighs amazing mystery authors know about crime and criminal procedure and motivation and plot, story-telling. so, les and i teamed um, i asked him to help because he had some amazing background on this and we came up with "anatomy of innocence." so that being my big, long, windy introduction, i'm going to save the best for last. but john, i'm going to ask you to speak in a minute but you are the lead attorney of the larry thompson case, and the denver innocence project. a newer organization? >> a very new organization. and this is actually their first

case. >> okay. great. selma and richard are the husband and wife dutch scientist, now'sing in colorado, who specialize in proving innocence through technical evidence. dna, blood stain pattern indianapolis gunshot evidence, crime scene reconstruction, and forensic medical issues such as cause and time of death, injury interpretation, things like that. they are experts in the scientific relationship between violent crime and certain gene types that term how an individual metabolizes certain medication. they have performed forensic tests and testified in many high profile cases including casey anthony, james holmes, and jonbenet ramsey. they have worked on several other high profile wrongful conviction cases and the dna testing led to the exoneration of tim masters.

and i have the great honor and privilege of just meeting clarence moses, who was arrested in 1987 and wrongfully convicted in 1988 of sexual assault. he was sentenced to 48 years based on the victim's dreams. in 1995 with the help of barry scheck and the innocence project in new york the court ordered dan to be tested. moses el and fellow prisoners raised a thousand dollars to have the dna tested. denver police, packaged the evidencing are including the victim's rape kit, clothes and bed sheets and sealed it in a box, marked in big letters do not destroy. the police then permanently destroyed the evidence by throwing the box in a dumpster. a judge ruled that the mistake was not grounds for a new trial. in 2013 moses el received a letter from another prisoner admitting to the crime.

the confessor, lc jackson, was one of the people whom the victim originally identified to the police in 1987 as a possible attacker. lc jackson was houses -- wow. hadn't got into this part yet lc jackson was housed in same detention facility as clarence and doing a double life sentence for a 1992 double rape of a mother and her nine-year-old daughter who lived about a mile and a half away from the first woman's home. the blood type of the attacker matched that of lc jackson. the denver district attorney's office did not interview lc jackson until 18 months after his confession became public and they have fought vigorously to prevent clarence from receiving a new trial despite lc jackson's confession and matching blood type. a colorado judge vacated the congress visitations and ordered the d.a. to either retry the

case or drop the charges. clarence was released in december 2015 but the denver district attorney has decided to retry him and he was finally found not guilty on all counts in november of 2016. can we please give a big hand to clarence. [applause] >> welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. may i ask the first question of you, sir? >> yes. >> okay. what we tried to do in this book was identify somewhat -- not typical because there is no typical wrongful conviction case -- but some of the stages you seem to see in cases somewhat like yours, which might be very different from my good friend and client, julie ray, who was wrongfully convicted of

killing her son. your cases might be very, very different, but you both had -- would you agree that you both had what we call the knock on the door when someone accused you and what we know is your innocence plays against you. most people who are innocent say, i'd be happy -- you want to go out there and talk? there's the horrific experience of being interrogated, of hearing evidence against you at trial that is not true, of hearing guilty when you hoped and prayed you believed otherwise. walking in jail nor the first time. hard to forget. all the things you had to do to keep yourself sane. all of the emotional tenacity you had to have to try to help you believe in yourself enough to look for help and start over? and then the realization when you get out that freedom is just the beginning. are those for you some of the

same things you've experienced? >> for the most part. i could agree with that. could y'all hear me? for the most part i could say that some of the things you spoke about in this other individual's case, it's almost the same. there are intimate parts of one's experience as they go through it that makes the difference. but for the most part, generally it's the same. you still go through your ups and downs. human beings go through that. some call it mood swings. i would agree with that myself. and going through a mood swing

is not a crazy thing. like it's been painted to be. but when you talk to yourself, whatever, that's a mood swing because you try to find something out. these are the things i discovered during the 48 years, but, yes, for the most part, it's the same. but individually it's going to be something different. depending on the individual. what the individual holds valuable. me, i held education valuable. always have. i think sometimes -- this might end u signed -- i think sometimes i really had to go through that in order to really grasp the real meaning of education for me.

>> well, jordan, my former student and i have talked about this. i actually stopped reading "people o'magazine when i start life after innocence because people like clarence are my self brits, my rock stars. i emulate and your word are just amazing. can you speak to the role of -- we have some scientists that we're going to hear front can you speak to the role of whether that played a big role in your case? >> speak louder, please. >> yes. >> dna would have played a role in my case but was destroyed. >> nothing ever -- there's a lot of cases where we think aing everything is destroyed and they fine something later. there wassing in ever recovered from that? >> from what i was told at the

time, yes. nothing was left. so, i had to go with that. and at that time i was for the most part some of that time i was doing my own pro se work. so, the first time i heard about it was all gone,. >> clarence, did you ever just want to give up? >> no. you know, i've had other life experiences that, when i reflect on those experiences, they could have been experiences that pinned me down, but i always had that drive and will to get up ever since i was young. so, i definitely was going to

call -- just like sin bad call on his powers. i did the same thing. did what i had to do to survive. and that was to look at my best interests and what i needed to do. what i needed to do as far as preparing myself physically and mentally. did those things, and doing those things i was saying to myself, i'm not giving up. either indirectly or directly. and my mother, she is dead now. i never got a chance to see my mother again. but she said a lot of things that always was a part of the character in me, never to give up. she always told me, son, don't never give up. especially when you know you innocent. so, i carry that torch with me right now.

i carry other torches, too, but i never give up. >> and other prisoners clearly believed in you. donated money towards trying to get you some dna testing and all that. >> yes. >> pretty amazing. >> yes. i think that there were other factors involved that led to me being able to obtain money from other inmates. the ones that gave me the money donated the money to me. they believed in my because they was around me from the time that i first entered into the denver

county jail, and from day one that was this the music coming out of my trumpet, and wherever i went, i wasn't afraid to tell anybody about what i was being falsely accused of. >> can we bring it down to you scientists for a moment, and you worked on all these high profile cases as we mentioned. can you tell us about the wrongful conviction case you worked on where as scientists it maybe hit you the most personally or is that not okay to ask that of scientists? >> we get approach evidence quite a lot with cases from persons in prison, and then we check out the story kind of what lawyer also do, is is person

really innocent and then we use dna to prove whether or not they are guilty or not. and by the first miscarriage of justice? california was leemasters lee masters and we we are asked by an ex-police officer to investigate that case. and what we used is the dna which is left by the hands of the perpetrator on their victims and that was new in that time, 2006 when we started with the investigation. and this is a very special case. also because the police officers were involved in the side or the defense so that's why i wanted a case which really standing out but all of them are special. now, remember that we -- vicki was working on the case and asked me, can you dethe disman i said okay. heard the story about a dream. this is so outrageous, re would do the dan for free but that

time the dna was already thrown away. so i remember the case of moses. all the cases have something special. we working in case in florida where dna completely reverse still they don't get u give the persons a new trial. there's nothing to hide. why don't you give these people another chance on proving their innocence? >> this is of course one of the great problems in the innocence world, which is that the u.s. supreme court said innocence is not a grounds to release somebody from prison. that's what the court's case said. it says there has to have been a mistake made in the legal process, factual innocence isn't enough. >> a mistake or new evidence. >> right. >> we're dutch so we have a different -- >> we're dutch. >> our system is different so we're not used to this systemy you are really fighting against

each other. it's more civil in the sense we have three judges, judging the case and we don't have a jury system so we approach these case completely different and we're not used to being so -- in court or abusive the way it is over here. also you can see that the problem in the united states is that you get much more miscarriage or justice because of this system where if your attorney don't governor the truth but just want to win a case and the same with the defense, but truth-finding is the most important part of what we do. we work cases where the defendants say we're innocent and then we look at the evidence or we start doing the dna and we find all over the place and we know the case is not a good for this person. >> then the attorney, the district attorney would sometimes actually say, okay.

>> oh, yeah. that happens all the time and we work for the judges. then you just give thed and it goes court and this person gets even higher sentences than when they started out. but of course this is miscarriage of justice. i worked on a lot of. the in holland and the united states now, and there's a -- one of the -- the one that change the story the most is one who is wrong and that's what you sneak these -- you can see in these case where every time that you chang the story because of in the newed and the dna is not mentioned, but the dna is not matching because it's contamination or it's another person that -- consensual sex, and if you change story to much, what who say to the defendant maybe you're not telling the truth. and in mow kiss case the case

was weak to begin with, based on a dream. ...

and unfortunately that's led to a culture if you're a successful police officer, law enforcement official, if you're a successful prosecutor that means winning, it means clearing your cases,

finding someone who can be convicted and getting them convicted. it's not about seeking the truth and that's leading to wrongful convictions. we are not talking about evil people. there are some out there but we are not talking about a system that's so corrupt that the laws, law enforcement officials, the prosecutors are all bad people, they are human, they make mistakes but the system encourages them to cover that up. [inaudible] >> i think something is fundamentally wrong. >> john, do you want to weigh?

>> they are the most heartbreaking thicks you can ever imagine because the political and legal obstacles to getting a new trial of somebody convicted of something serious like clarence or three murder cases that i've done, they're just enormous and there's so much ego involved. the ego of the district attorneys which this gentleman has been talking about. there's also the ego of the courts, okay, because they at least in denver and mostly everywhere else are low to admit that one of their screwed up or gave somebody bad trial or left evidence that shouldn't have come in and they want to protect because when it comes to putting people in prison for life unjustly, they don't want to admit it it's heartbreaking to

do these cases and tbebly they come out okay, the guy got a new trial and now he's going to get a third trial because there's more new evidence. the da's don't want to give up and i found out that they can use dna evidence for their conviction and when it was found that the conviction, dna was faulty back in 1995 and in 2005 it was proved to be completely erroneous, they won't let us do our own dna testing which is outrageous and hypocritical. i can't emphasize enough the difficulty of doing cases and the heartbreak for the victims, the families, for the lawyers, i

mean, they tear your heart out, so it's a tough road, probably a hard thing you can do in the law, get somebody convicted of first-degree murder out of prison unless you have some sort of slam dunk dna rape case. which clarence would have had had they not thrown his dna away. we screw it up, we will con -- confess. beg your pardon? sure they could have. if you think they're going to admit that, you're getting huge liability. that's another factor of all of these cases, there's company ration act in colorado that give

people, it's either 75 or $80,000 a year for each year they've been locked up when they were absolutely innocent. but the burden is so high to get that kind of money that nobody has done it. >> what's the burden of proof? >> the strangest thing. >> starts by preponderance and then clear and convincing. it's crazy. >> 30 states that have compensation and they're all over the lot in the standard and some of them by the way like in california we were hearing recently they've gotten some awards that the state hasn't gotten to pay them.

budgetary issues and so on. but there are 20 states where there's no compensation system. veterans, of course, get compensated and cured for when the government takes their time but not exonorees. when we look at the registry of exonerations by michigan of state which list 2,000 exonerations that have taken place in the last 25 years or so. 25% of those cases only are dna-evidence cases. many of the cases involve false confession that were later proven to be extracted under various circumstances including torture. many of the cases involveed misidentification by witnesses.

that's the most common element in all of the cases. witnesses who have come forward, some of them they saw a person or recanted the testimony or there's other credible evidence that that's -- that the person they said they saw was some whereelse at the same time and other witnesses identifying that . there's bad science. there's people come forward claiming to be experts and use their scientific evidence to demonstrate in a completely fallacious manner that this particular person was guilty. it's not just tunnel vision by the prosecutors. another element by the way is poor defense counsel. nobody here but many of the cases the lawyers showed up drunk, the lawyer left through the case. these are shocking.

>> with this talk about prosecutors, i have a call from a reporter who is working on a piece that hasn't come out, innocent deniers about this exact issue. but i had to say to her pretty quickly that although there are some unbelievably egregious examples of prosecutors just trumpian, did i just point that? [laughter] >> it's trumpian and we have a case in chicago where five boy that is we worked with were arrested rape and murder of a woman and when the first early dna did not match, now

apparently if it had happened that you might be able to show the judge and the judge might say, ah, all five of them don't match, maybe it's really not them and yet instead what our state attorneys decided to present was a series in between the time these five boys and raped this poor woman and the full-time they found it. therefore why does none of the evidence match? it was a circular reasoning. however, i did tell the reporter who is doing this innocent's denier piece. i did tell her, there are rape prosecutors who do say, i think we have it wrong and unfortunately, though, i've

worked with one such gentleman, tom, a famous and successful prosecuting attorney and showed that he had a case that was wrong. he said, wow, he helped get this case out. he, in fact, when the professionals asked him any other case you have a concern about, he said michael evan. they look intoed the case, dna showed it wasn't michael evan, michael evans was released so he was right and he was shunned by a lot of attorneys in the office at the time, a lot of cops, a lot of people he had grown up with and that -- talk about heartbreaking. it's heartbreaking all around and yet -- i constantly seek rape states attorneys. this book is not meant to be a

slam on the justice system, i've been to china and i have met, they have an innocence's project now in china, granted the first exonoree they took him behind the alleys. i went to malaysia which went to speak about romantic comedies and we had a press conference and it was packed. i thought, oh, my god, so fantastic that my fiction is causing such an uproar, no, it's because malaysia at the time and i believe still has laws that you can get picked up and you don't ever have to get charged. every reporter in that room had seen cousin joe, picked up and never saw them again, so they

were fascinated by our system so we do not mean to indict. >> right. >> would you agree? >> many prosecutors, those cases we don't know anything about where the police have come to them with a case and they said, you know, not evidence enough. how many wrongful convictions are there? we don't know. most people think 5 to 10%. a hundred thousand people in american prison that are innocent of the crimes that they were convicted of. >> i would like to ask clearance a question and then take any questions from you if you have any. clarence, you wrote this book as we said to try to help people, again, get behind the eyes and inside the soul of somebody who

was wrongfully convicted. if you had to release one thing you can tell people and you wish the general public did not have a lot of experience with this would know about what it's like to be innocent and eventually exonerated as you have, what would that be? >> first, i will say that each person eventually exonerated or even released after a court decision or ruling, each individual has a unique story and so the things that i speak about today is dealing with my personal experience. if i had anything to say other

than there are so many things -- >> just one. >> yeah. that's really hard right there. i would -- i would want people to understand that it's really not that simple dealing with being wrongly convicted, not on the physical sense like dealing with your physical strengths, physical anatomy, that's not the part that you really have to deal with, you to deal with this here. >> how do you do that? >> you have to have -- you have to have some type of insight about what it is you want to do

and where you wanting to. you have to have that first because from that then you could start carving out steps to achieve that goal, several things that i did i started looking at okay, mo, what's happening right here, response was, you're in prison for a crime that you didn't commit, what are you going to do? i have to do something, well, what is it? i'm going to start here and then go to b and then go to c and i'm -- >> break it down. >> yes, just being brief, those are the things that i started to incorporate, but at the same time i still had to be focused on the psychic because once you lose sight and control of your

mind to implore rational thoughts that eventually give birth to behavior. see, you've got to be a brave, strong person psychologically because you're not just dealing with the charge stuff and you're dealing with a whole lot of things that come with the charge such as inmate. in prison inmates frown on people who come to prison for sexual crimes. you can literal i will go to prison for murder and get more respect than a person that comes in for sexual crime. so you have to deal with that psychologically because people make all kinds of threats. then you have to deal with the court system because the court

system, it places the stigma on you through the conviction, so you have to deal with that. it's just so much you have to deal with that it's not -- it's not easy. >> people have asked me, what do i want them to do after reading this book, what's the take away that i want them to have and i have two answers, one is of my 60's upbringing, start to say to yourself, can i really believe what i read in the paper about this person's arrest, that person's conviction? nothing doubt, don't respect your law enforcement people and your prosecute people and the second is because this is a project to raise money for life after innocence and the authors

proceeds are going away, i say buy this book, buy this book and share and spread the word. they're helping, they're starting to get public awareness of the issue. the idea of the book is to raise awareness and that's why we are so glad to be here. >> i will say before we take questions if there are any, i think just speaking with you clarence is an exact example of why i say that exonorees are my rock stars because of amazing ability that january broke, he's one of the most famous sentence cases in the world because the attorneys, there were attorneys who knew he didn't do it and they knew their guy did but their guy wouldn't let them talk

so attorney-client privilege 26 years after he died, but we have a chapter about segregation because it's something that you will deal if you are in prison today, period. so the thing that's so amazing, though, i think about exonorees and clarence, you showed us, that they learned how to choose their thought, i'm not going to give you a choice about what to eat, what to wear, when to get up, no choice, no choice, no choice. this is the only choice you get to make, your head space and i can't even imagine, i call it emotional, it must require such amazing emotional tanacity and would we give clarence a wonder ful round of applause.

>> he was asked about why he wasn't angry about what happened, he said, you know, they took 28 years away from my life and i couldn't control that. every day that i'm angry is a day wasted and i can control that. >> do we have questions, jordan? can you repeat your question? >> can you explain the dream? >> i guess the reason for -- the reason for the state coming out saying it's a dream is to say that they were using for identification because it eventually played a very significant role.

i mean, it plays a role. i will put it that way. [inaudible] >> she lost consciousness. she saw that was attacked by clarence but from a medical point of view that's belonging because if you are unconscious, it means that you have amnesia for what happened before you left your consciousness and afterwards. so they could have dismissed from the beginning but that's not what happened.

it was clarence. it's usually some bizarre fluid of events that caused an innocent person to be convicted. and the first one i give, the defendant, tim kennedy, there was a contract out on them and lo and behold they were killed

and one of the gun that is killed him was tim kennedy's gun . that was it. get him in. despite the fact that we had several confessions from the people who really did it who knew who really did it and the real perpetrator had confessed. it was amazing how these things happen. [inaudible] >> the victim who was an alcoholic and who had problems.

she never admit the victim's advocate, she said, i grabbed him by the shirt and looked but i couldn't see anything and there was blood all over my eyes and i looked at him and i saw it was clarence. that did it. so the identification of the perpetrator was not as emotional or not carry a jury as well because he had a better chance of being convicted. looked him right in the face and they thought that was a lot better than her first statement.

>> what kind of help did you receive once you were released and then realized he were innocent, did you receive compensation? >> a lot of help from donations to individuals come forward saying, well, you know, i can connect you with this person to get a job and you know, clothing and things like that. as far as the compensation and things like that, they're -- there's still ongoing proceedings, so i can't speak

much about that because -- >> engaged. >> yes, yes. absolutely. >> a round of applause. [applause] >> yes, i found that after leaving the house of hell -- [laughter] >> you know, it was like a house of hell psychologically because prison is not really all about physical things, yes, you are there physically, but to deal with it is a psychological thing and i said once upon a time, it takes a very mentally strong person who has already went through tough experiences to go through prison and maintain your sanity. you know, i was there for 28

years. you don't have people come out still maintaining their sanity like me. >> right. >> they either come out and become attached to so many things that their mind is war, but while i was there i was training and disciplining myself. i was in the army, my own personal army. you know, it was a war dealing with the things that i didn't want to conform to so i had to learn how to navigate, et cetera. that was my concept of survival. in fact, i had a lot of concepts, but due to the grace of god first and foremost. >> i actually have two questions and they are different. i know your book says it's an indictment on the system.

sometimes don't you think you should i diet the system, the systems, judges like to say we have the greatest system in the world and then it's like, well, we compare our system to malaysia and china, well, we are better than malaysia and china and say their system is okay, there's nothing wrong with our system but at least we are not them. and then my second question is for the dna people, initially before whatever, like, for example the denver crime lab reports like 100 or a thousand times more likely or as opposed to 5 million times more likely, but saying basically is a positive result, don't you think there's issues in regards to reporting now adays and helping jurors understand what it means

when people are reporting those types of results? >> this is the most complicated part of the dna statistics. nearly all the mixture dna and then becomes complicated because how big is a chance that you find the mixed profile. [inaudible] >> and that's where you get ratios, there's a different approach. now you -- okay, the suspect and victim. unknown person donated some materials to this.

and there you get this complicated equations because if you have a mixture, more complicated and now you can see and not so high anymore like if you have five people in dna mixture it will mix by coincidence and a lot of people in this room and so we need to be careful. okay, dna it's solid and the science is solid, it's complicated as soon as you get mixtures. this is the way they approach it now. they also say, well, the likely ratio is actually better. you can see more portion. big problem.

[inaudible] >> so coming up with a very good alternative hypothesis because there's always hospital -- hypothesis you can test. >> we are working with the innocence project where the first ideal of the district attorney we have a car and victim in the car and that's when they grabbed this guy thompson and then he turned out that the blood in the car was not of the victim. statistics and it's so simple.

they won't let us do that. >> blood of the victim and the defendants and alleged to have been used to tbump body of the victim and that largely convicted, in fact, one juror who told us later that they would have never found thompson guilty and and in 2005 when it was retested it was found that the results were that there was a zero percent chance that the

victim's blood was in that van but he did not get a new trial. so there was other evidence and we were able to friewf other evidence -- prove other evidence. >> the party in this case, the district attorney starts chasing stories all of the time because the victim was in the van and had some shady dna evidence and in 2005, blood is very easy to get dna profile and exclude the victim of the car thompson and then you have a problem. okay, maybe something was wrong with my story and she changed the story. they change the story and don't draw the conclusions that maybe they had the wrong guy. they stick with the suspect, the convicted perp and not willing to adjust their story anymore.

he's in jail but all the evidence is not adding up anymore. i think we should have more dna testing. 25% of the dna testing, you see give people the right in dna, even texas does that now, the right for dna testing, if you think you are innocent, you get dna test. >> then you get the crime lab, terrible shortage of labs in america, the underfunding of crime labs in america. so great to have dna testing but who is going to do it? [laughter] >> you can do it. >> we can do so much. it's even worse than that. we have cases where we have found what -- the state refuses to work with our evidence.

[inaudible] >> and just unwillingness a lot of time to admit, hey, i screwed up. these folks have had some good experiences and i know that there are good experiences. we screwed up. generally my experience is that they'll fight you tooth and nail. >> as people all try to do on a regular basis, you know, when your husband, they took my book out of the bedroom? >> and just see how hard it is, you know what, i did move, that's hard and but do i -- the prosecutors don't want to indict, the third-generation lawyer and i have my identity

all wrapped around it and i had an honor to joining my family's law firm in woodstock and i believe it's an amazing system and not better than anybody else's not just because they are so bad and we are a little better than them but do i think that -- one of the answers might be that prosecutors should not perhaps have absolute immunity. they have absolute immunity which makes it -- it kinds makes the question, if you have immunity and you can't get fined, nothing will happen to you unless you really have this massive pattern, there's a gentlemen, thompson in new orleans who filed a lawsuit who had hid and concealed evidence that shows the man did not do it. a jury agrees, $15 million went

up through the louisiana courts, you know, all the appeals, good, good, good, it went to the united states supreme court of the united states, supreme court says, no, prosecutors have absolute immunity unless you can prove a pattern of conduct. i don't know how clarence is supposed to prove a pattern of conduct. i think the absolute immunity thing -- one of the steps that we have heard a lot about as we have been touring the country is wrongful conviction, conviction integrity unit, ask your local counties if they have them, ask if they have people who are supposed to be independent and/or not even from that office. i think in a better world we have conviction integrity units at the da's office that don't reside there. i will let you have the last word. >> it is the death sentence. >> there we go.

>> his chapter is called luck in the death penalty and what he talks about in his essay is how a young man, young boy, 18 year's old was accused and raping and murdering his mother later by luck evidence came out that he had been seen by law enforcement officials across town from where he had supposed done the heinous crime and the evidence came out because the prosecutor dropped dead and he -- a new prosecutor found evidence. so how can we have a system where you can't say sorry when there's a mistake made. if 5% of the convictions are bad, we can't morally have a death penalty. that's the one party i absolutely thing is wrong with our system and many states have dropped the death penalty but not all. >> all right, thank you so much for coming and can we thank again our honored guest

clarence. [applause] >> if you buy the book, lauren and i are happy to sign. do come on and talk. even if you -- >> so when are you getting married? >> even if you don't like the book. [inaudible conversations] >> got it. [inaudible conversations] >> this weekend on book tv on c-span2. tonight at 11:00 p.m. eastern pat buchanan talks about his book in his time as former speech writer and senior adviser to president richard nixon.

>> had broken lyndon johnson but at the end of the year, 1969, richard nixon, if you can believe it, was a 68% afliewfl gallup poll and nixon seven years had been written off as biggest loser in american politics. >> you see a woman on the cover of her book standing in half of her fat pants and say, i did it, i just thought, i can't write that book yet and i want to write that book and so why don't i tell the story of my body today without apology. i'm just explanations, this is my fat body and this is what it's like nob this world in this body.

>> go to booktv.org. >> i can see after isis ceases to exist bring bin laden to be leader, first bin laden, young, millennial, he was trained for last seven, eight years by some of the top commanders, people that his father did not have access to council because all of them were together in house arrest in iran in the same place, he got married to the number two person in al-qaeda's daughter, who has been involved in virtually also every terrorist attack that happened against us and the world. he master minded bombings in the south. i think the person and already had about five different messages. at the very beginning they

always called him brother and in the last message the announcement and the message as, promotion, you can't be leader without having the title shake. you listen to his statements and i've been throng his statements, you will see something really interesting. he never attacks isis. he never mentions caliphate. how does actually say, what's happening in iraq and syria and libya and somalia, what's happening in algeria and in mali, what's happening everywhere, they are the followers of osama bin laden. he says, look, you people in the west, now we are everywhere and

his town, he tried to copy his father. he tried to copy his father, his stone is exactly the tone of osama bin laden and his message identical to what bin laden used to say. same statements sometimes. in his last statements where he gave commandments for west, he said, look, try to kill as many people as you can, don't just take a knife, try to do it right, you know, and then he said, always leave a message why you did it and i'm telling you why you did it. i'm telling you what to say. number one, lands are occupied. land of the holy place is occupied.

we did not hear that since osama bin laden died. we did not hear that since 9/11. palestine, if we don't live in live in palestine you will never know peace in america and in the west. well, that's something bin laden said himself. but also we did not hear that in how long? long, long, long time ago and then he talked about stealing the wealth of the muslim world, right? we did not hear that for a long time. he's bringing it back. he only said one thing we did not hear his father talk about, what's happening in syria, the murderer of assad regime and russians. he said we are doing attack in the west because you're supporting them, you're supporting and that's the only thing he added and frankly he cannot not mention syria, largest affiliates of al-qaeda

is in syria, he's bringing back the original message of osama bin laden. and i talk about his character, i talk about his childhood. he was a child for al-qaeda. in the early days, if you look at videos of al-qaeda, he's saying fiery speeches, he's training and he told his father, he said, father, when i was in jail, i learned a lot and you're going to be proud of me. i learned about this, i learned about that but now i feel i'm forged by steel and i'm ready to march with the leggance under your commander. bin laden from all of his sons who were released, he wanted only two people to come and join him, his wife, ph.d, older than him and she has only one son and his wife wasn't just a wife, she was his adviser, she was his

word smith, literally. he wanted her to come not because she missed wife, she wanted her to come and threaten commander, if you don't bring her here, i will myself go up and bring her here which his commander is this guy lost his mind, what do you mean, but then we know why, because he wanted her to basically work on his statements on the anniversary, tenth anniversary of 9/11. he wanted her to tell him what to say. when he could not bring her, he was convinced, hey, the tenth anniversary is coming, you know how important this is, so i told, you know, chief of staff to buy you a computer and usb's and please start working on the

statements for tenth anniversary of 9/11. she pushed more and more towards following up in his father's footsteps. the woman behind the father and the son. so today we see al-qaeda trying to wait until isis dwindle and after isis totally dwindle a new bin laden will come and claim, claim that message, claim the ownership of that message and i think it will be successful with that. >> chief david brown, what was your day like july 7th, 2016, how did it start? >> it started as a normal day in the chaotic world of policing in our big city where you had scheduled protestors who had planned as part a