the man who made the mcdonald's for and the woman who gave it away ." this is live coverage on c-span2. >> hello, everybody, and welcome to the 33rd annual "chicago tribune" printers row lit fest. want to thank our sponsors.

today's program is being broadcast live on c-span 2's booktv. we're going to have time end to have a q & a session so when the time comes, please like up at the microphone to your right so that our home viewing audience can hear the questions. with that, i'm going to hand it over to your interviewer, amy carr, associate mapping are editor for the "chicago tribune." [applause] >> welcome to lit fest. i'm here pleased to be here with lisa napoli. former journalist, current journalize. >> always a journalist. >> the author of "ray and joan: he man who made the mcdonald's fortune and the woman who gave it all wow."

i love this title. thick people don't often appreciate lounge it goes into getting a perfect title. >> i grew up in new york reading the north new new new york post" >> a book about that man who meat mcdonald's to what we know today and amazing, head-spinning philanthropy of his third wife, joan kroc. when we were putting together the program, liz taylor, who is the "chicago tribune's" literary editor at large, was talking about it. said should a business writer do this interview? and she said, it's not a business book. it's a love story. and i think it's a little more complex than that. it is a business story, love story, it's a hate story, and it

really is a story about mid-20th century americana and that is what kept me going in the five years it took research because it blends everything together and makes luke odd something we take to for granted came to be and the, whichs and people behind it. loved it as researcher because it did pull together so many things. as a former technology and business reporter, really if you think about it, paper cups, which ray kroc used to sell were high-tech when he was selling them 100 years on and so on and so on, and the other great thing was it made my come to chicago quite a lot, because it's such a distinctly chicago story and what a pleasure that was, even in the wintertime. >> host: so you were a tech reporter, written for "the new york times," got your start at cnn, right? so how did you stumble on to this tale? >> guest: people -- when first

started working on, it people would say you don't seem like the typical mcdonald's customer. why too you care about that? whatever a typical mcdonald's customer is, and it turns out that it wasn't mcdonald's that got me interested in it. it was joan's philanthropy, as you mixed before, more somebodily i was a public radio reporter for public radio station in santa monica, california, near where i live, and i went to cover the fate of this giant peace sculpture by the late editorial car couldn'tist, paul conrad, and it was weird to me this editorial cartoonist made the 26-foot tall mushroom cloud out of chain link and it was in trouble. this city was going to knock it down because they didn't have the now restore it, and i said to the peace activist standing beneath is with my microphone, who built this in the first place? why don't you just go to her? and jerry rubin, the paste

activist, says we can't talk about. it was an anonymous gift but it was joan kroc who gave the gift. and he thought anybody who was in public radio would know and exalt kroc because she gave that massive gift when she died in 2003. and i thought, wow, want to read a book about this joan kroc. a peace activist who funded a sculpture nowhere near where she lived and gave all this now npr. what else is there about her? i started searching and i could find some obituaries but couldn't find a biography, so dumbly, stupidly, i appointed myself the person would do that and i found out quickly why one had never been written. >> host: the footnotes in this book -- you see how thick this book is. there's 260 pages of -- 65 of tex and then another good chunk

of footnotes and a really fascinating ledger of all of joan's philanthropic givings. how many pages does that phonophore. >> host: we excerptedded it in book but on the web site we have the whole thing. close to 20 pages of strange -- it's sort of like a rosetta stone into their mind over the course of her life. disparate and strange, evolving lot of money, from a little bit enormous sums of money she gave. so the footnotes -- i took pride in the footnotes. someone asked me if i had so many footnotes to pad out the book which i thought was so silly. anybody who reads buying a graphs knows -- i -- biographed. happifully they're fun to read. >> they were great. when i saw the salvation army donation i thought perhaps there were some extra zeros on there.

>> guest: no. close to two billion by the time it was all cashed out. that's a lot of money. >> host: so, talk about the reporting process. like you said, no one has done this story's it was very difficult, right? there's all these -- she gave to so many people, and how did you tackle that? >> guest: it was hard them first place i started was mcdonald's, of course, near oakbrook and they would not help me. they said, oh, there are two books written about mcdonald's, one written by ray -- not really, he had a guest writer -- read those. said, no, that's nice but i need to find out more. and they never helped me. the families of ray and joan, as union possessed it -- the third wife -- what was left of the families were reluctant to work with me. so it was hard, and what i found and what was so much fun in the

research process -- you know this from your work -- also frustrating, too -- is just reverse engineering things. so, i started -- first i start extractioning things, obituaries, old archives go to the harold washington library in san diego because they lived out thunder lives in san diego. the public library there. in search of what is very hard to find because it's not all digitized yet and it's not all -- we all thing everything you go on the internet and just type in a search word ask ask you find everything but it doesn't work that way, especially when you're looking in the '60s, and '70s sunshine early '80s sway go to these places and sift through newspaper after newspaper and try to find names from the names of people i found associated with them, if they were still a live, sleuth them out. paid visits to people in rapid city, south dakota.

all over the country. joan lived there as an early franchisee, st. paul. and finding people -- it was a thrill of pursuit that we have in journalism because sometimes you're banging your head against the ball because waugh can't find a person but i loved when someone had an unusual name because it made it easier to find them. if i found out they were deceased i knew i found them using modern research tools like an ancestry or old date books and things like that. so, it was tough because there wasn't an archive. joined biographers international organization, an amazing group of biographers, for guidance, and i learned a lot going into their conferences and reading their newsletters -- their pulitzer prize winners who are experts in research and mining for information, but i learned very quickly that those tricks don't necessarily work when people haven't left behind

information and neither ray nor joan did. so thankfully ray's brother ran the foundation, the first iteration from the kroc foundation, from a ranch in santa inez in california, called the j & r double r ranch, and ray's brother was the exact opposite of him and he was meticulous record keeper and knew he was doing michigan important with the early part of the mcdonald's corporation when mcdonald's went public. so there was this hardship assignment of going to the university of california san santa barbara, which has a beautiful research library and sifting through the papers and looking for clues, was both la borous and -- lab borous and also a joy when you found

something. i'm sorry for the long answer. >> host: let's talk about ray a bit. there's a strong connection to chicago, living in oakbrook and mooing to the city and the home of mcdonald's number one. so, is it truly the first mcdonald's? >> guest: it isn't. the first mcdonald's -- i late to disappoint the chicagoans in the audience -- the first mcdonald's really was in san bernardino. actually the first one was in riverside county but riverside, california, and mcdonald's was started by two powers after world war ii -- who brothers are world war ii who were looking to make a buck. they were in the hot dog business and the movie theater business so they started this -- developed this system of preparation, food preparation.

they were carhop restaurants and people were doing quick serve food but weren't doing as quick as the brothers invented. ray was here as -- paper cup salesman who became a salesman of multispin tell milkshakemaker that derived from an early ice cream stand here calls prince castle. some of the old timers may know it. and so from that office here in chicago he started selling these milk shake machine mixers and that's how me met the brothers mcdonald in san bernardino, california, and asked them if he could franchise the system, and they had had some early luck with franchising. they weren't interested in going as big as ray wanted to because they knew how hard it would be, and the rest is out. it does -- so what happened here is when ray decided to franchise

or was allowed to start franchising, he built his first mcdonald's in des plaines, and that's why it's erroneously referred to as number one because for many years the mcdonald's corporation did not acknowledge these brothers existed and that there had been nine or ten -- actually -- probably ten before the one here in des plaines got built. >> host: that's really interesting. ten other restaurants and we think we're mcdonald's number one. that was the way he did business and eventually the mcdonald's brothers were no longer involved. right. >> yeah. ray met them in the mid-'50s. started franchising and then it was in 1961 that he bought them out for $2.7 million. the system was in a difficult place, mcdonald's could have very easily tanked, and the way they had to keep raising money, they had to buy out the

brothers. the brothers were fed up with ray at that point, too because he was bombast and they were trying have this long-distance business relationship which is difficult enough today but then it was, they would carry around dictaphone machines and send each other tapes back and forth. the wantn't want to talk on the phone because they were always angry. ray asked them what you want to go away. they said $2.7 million and in 1961, the same year ray divorced his first wife, the brothers got this big check, and rode off into the sunset and really didn't get angry about it until years later when -- actually one of them did -- one of the brothers passed away but dick mcdonald got angry years later after ray kroc died in 1984 and mcdonald's was advertising like crazy that the founder has been deceased,

and dick mcdonald said, no, we were the founders. he wasn't the founder and that's when there was a whole drama between mcdonald's and dick mcdonald and some wrongs were made right but some acknowledgments and that kind of thing, but it is an interesting 20th -- mid-20th century business story that could happen today, invariably business parters have spat order breakups and people around the world study franchising and food service through the lens of mcdonald's and there's so much they get wrong. >> host: well, happened to turn into one of the largest companies in the world. right? so, interesting you bring up the founder. so, much of what you just relayed was on the silver screen in the past year in a movie called "the founder" starring michael keaton. your book wag not involved in the movie at off.

you were not involved. correct? >> guest: no. >> but much of the same topics are in there. how much -- were there things they didn't get right. >> guest: many things they took poetic license with, but what is interesting for all the women and feminists in the audience, it was hard to sell a book just about joan, and when we learned about the movie being made by putting ray in the title and by acknowledging where the fastfood fortune came from, in a deeper way than initially i hoped to, that sold the book. so it's interesting that -- >> host: that is interesting. >> guest: -- made it more attract tonight to tell -- i think it is a better back to have told the story about where the fortune that joan gave away came from but it is interesting that even though joan alone is who is a great 20th century philanthropist wasn't a draw

because she is as compelling as ray. >> host: maybe that's will by your movie. >> guest: anyone who wants to option the book -- her story is dynamite. she is such a strong, interesting woman, who came from nothing, but to your point incomes "the founder" and the people associated with movie have been angry with me for saying best but "the founder" gets two main things wrong that stick in my craw and i have a whole whole list on my web site, rayinjoan.com. the fact that the brothers were cheated out of a continued royalty from ray. they took their money and they went off. they were happy to have the money. they weren't happy with ray. they didn't like him. a lot of people didn't like ray. but that's an assertion in the movie i have not been able to substantiate and i've worked very, very hard to make it -- make sure that what i am brighting in the book is correct. the other thing is how joan is depicted.

she is depicted as the second wife, when really she is the third, and she is depicted as the wife of a very successful restaurant your when in fact she was pretty much the main support, financial support, for her first husband, rolly, by playing in an elegant restaurant, piano and organ and other jobs, and her husband, rolly, was hired by a franchiseee, an early franchisee to manage an early franchise in st. louis park, minnesota, that joan was behind the scenes on, and so you really don't get a sense of how hard joan and her first husband really worked, and also in the movie they say that joan is certain of plot twist that convinces ray to use milk shake machine mix. that's not true. and that's -- >> host: instead of real ice cream.

>> guest: it's minutiae but important historically because it turns out -- i found this out -- i still hear from people who are mcdonald's historians so it's that kind of information that is really key and critical, and joan really was so important behind the scenes in the early days of mcdonald's. she wasn't just a trophy wife, a beautiful, much younger wife. she was working the french-fryer with her house who became an early franchisee. >> host: the movie -- she isn't portrayed as much the movie as much but there's the charming scene on the piano where their singing "pennies from heaven." that's the night the met. tell the story how they met. >> guest: so, ray writes this in this out autobiography, "grindening it out" that ray was shopping around for franchisees around the midwest, and he went

to st. paul to the cite criterion restaurant, owned bay success entrepreneur in the area named jim zine and he walked in and there was jobe -- joan playing the organ and we're not clear she played "pennies from heaven." she was not a singer, never was, but ray walked in and was taken not just by what he said was her blond beauty but by her musical prowess because he, too was a musician. joan played music early on, on television, live tv breaks back when there wasn't tape in television in the early day of that medium, but ray, who is 26 years older, played live on the radio here in oak park where he was from, where he was raised, at the oak park arms hotel, where there was a live orchestra ever night. so -- people would dance.

that was radio back in the early days. he has this kinship with her that carried throughout their life about music, and i loved that united them. >> host: he was married to egg eggle, his first wife. >> guest: yes. >> host: and -- he goss sorted from ethel and then he and joan were not immediately together. >> guest: joan was not ready to marry him. there was an aborted attempt at marriage, and they finally did marry in 1969, conveniently ray married a woman named jane in the meantime, because he said he couldn't handle being a bachelor, and he bought -- when mcdonald's went public in 1965 he bought this ranch and called it the j & r double arch ranch and when he jetty sonned jane,

the j worked on the ranch when he married joan. >> host: one of the cozy story -- crazy stories in the book is when he left this second wind chill do and i nounsed -- the didn't announce. set the scene for where they were headed, and they were kind of jet-setting, having a pretty good time before that. tell that story. >> guest: when mcdonald's went public in 1965, ray had been scraping along and doing well but all of a sudden he was one of the richest men in the country, and he was also older at that point, and so he and his second wife, jane, were, as you say, bought this ranch and were running all over the country, the world, cruises, and enjoying themselves, and they were about to go off on their fifth anniversary on an around the

world cruise when ray had his lawyer deliver the bad news to jane at the bon voyage party, very madmen scene, all these guys and their wives, mcdonald's executives, had come to see them off, and their bon voyage cruise and the lawyer went to jane, the second mrs. kroc, and said, i'm very sorry but ray is leaving you, and here's what we're going to give you, and hope that is okay because if it's not, it's too bad. that's the deal. and so apparently she burst into tears, and that's how she learned that the marriage was over, and ray ran off with joan to vegas, which is where people went in those days for what was called quickie divorces, and they got their quickie divorces and got married not long after at the fireplace, at the j & r down arch ranch.

>> host: a heck of a breakup. >> guest: says a lot about who ray was, very good at signing the delivery of -- assigning the delivery of bad news and that's something joan lander to do, too. what good is it to have people if they're not going to tell your bad news for youing, right? >> host: a positive way to spin it. want to talk about the connection to chicago you. wrote an article about ray kroc's chicago. so i wanted to have you highlight a few of the significant landmarks here if you remember them. 515 east fairview in arlington heights. >> guest: where he and etheled a their first home when they first were able to buy a home after his years of toiling. >> host: the salwacker build snag where ray has hit first

office, prince sassle sales, and then when he took over mcdonald's corporation and they kept getting more and more office space there. >> host: the white hall hotel. >> guest: that is where ray went -- when joan kicked him out of the house once and in between his marriages, it was a place where he hung out and drank and drank and drank. >> host: quite a lot. >> guest: early times was his beverage of choice. >> yeah. >> 1242 north lake shore. >> guest: another arrow in the movie. show him drinking a fancier booze than early times. >> host: that's interesting. >> guest: pardon me. >> the 1242 north lake shore. >> guest: where ray and joan lived when they first got married. they bought that apartment, duplex apartment, in that beautiful building, and had it retrofitted with an organ and a piano and other opulent things and had tremendous parties there

>> host: the last one, the ray joan kroc corp community center. >> guest: you mention before that joan left $2 billion to salvation army and posthumously. before she died she built a sort of teaser kroc community center in san diego, in a poor neighborhood, and the story behind why i woken tell you right now but a she -- i won't tell you right now but she built a beautiful -- funded a beautiful 80 million decide recreation center, and in her will she left this bequest to salvation army to replicate they center in as many places across the country they could and fittingly one of them is here on the south side of chicago and if you have not been, you have to see it, they're all spectacular. state-of-the-art facilities, low cost to low income people in the neighborhood they're transformative in the neighborhoods as both recreation centers and community centers, and it's quite a legacy that she

left, and interestingly, it's the only gift that she lift posthumously that had ray's name in it. so interesting. >> host: that is interesting. so, ray was a baseball fan as well, yes? >> guest: big cubs fan. >> host: at one point as a rich man, businessman might do, he thought, should own the cubs, right. >> guest: yes. >> host: how did that work out? >> guest: well, it didn't. he wanted to buy the cubs but couldn't, and so he had heard a news story -- both ray and joan were big news junkize back before we called people that, and he heard an item that the deal to sell the san diego padres was falling through and the san diego padres being alasy -- a lousy team but he heard they were available he had his people call me and plunked down $10 million and that changed the course of both of their lives because now all of a

sudden their center of gravity was in san diego, since he owned the team. took joan a few years to move to be with him there, but, yeah, he was suddenly a -- like you say, rich man's play thing, and he was angry that the team was bad, but he was just happy to be in baseball. >> host: his first night as an owner was quite a night. >> guest: the first nothing they played a home game -- the first night they played home game, ray was sitting proudly in the owner's box, drinking his early times and getting more and more innocenced by -- incensed by how terrible the game was going and at a certain point he went to the announcer booth and asked if he could say a few words to the people. was a sellout crowd because ray was a hero for big the team and he announced, i have never seen such lousy ball playing in my life. and of course imagine that in the age of twitter and your

iphone but took awhile for that comment to reverberate because at the exact moment he was speaking, some dude ran across the field, the outfield, a streaker, if you remember those, and so it was a crazy night and it was sort of set the stage for who ray was, anybody who knew ray, knew that ray was quite bombastic before that. now that was his big welcome to san diego, and his welcome to major league baseball and some people loved it, but a lot of people, of course, not very happy about it, including many of the players. even if they agreed that it was lousy ball playing, didn't feel like it was dollar be told that -- cool to be told that publicly. >> host: ray was bombastic, comes up again and again, a bit of a drinker and that took a toll on their marriage him was pursuing her through all this time.

finally together, seemed like a love story, but it wasn't quite so rosy. >> guest: yeah. it's interesting. i think anytime i hit a wall, which is many times in my research, i always went back to the revelation that i found thanks to the archives at the cook county courthouse here which was the divorce papers of ray and ethel, attach to them were some papers of a divorce that joan had filed against ray herself, two years after they got -- finally got married, and what happened was that joan was so troubled by ray's alcoholism and ray was one of those what we would now call a functional alcoholic. he could drink all night long and then be up two hours later and delivering a speech a mcdonald's convention and no one would know. i'm told no one would know. so, back before we had language

where we talk about addiction and alcoholism, especially polite society;. ...

which is a little bit too cute for a topic like alcoholism but joe commissioned films and books and literature all on the topic of alcoholism education and the impact on the family at a time when people didn't have that conversation and that was really what made me fall in love with her that she persevered and the marriage.

she could have left a pitch he could have divorced him and taken a lot of money but instead she stayed and cynics might say she stayed because she would ultimately inherit all of his money but be that as it may she did a lot of good with his money and it was the very first major act that she had in creating this organization. i always say about her there's nothing wrong with people who just write checks but she rarely just wrote checks. she was active in hands-on and particularly in this. she was coming out in the press as a wife of a very wealthy man committed to this cause and people were interviewing her and they wanted to know why or you so interested in the subject? usually you don't get so engrossed in the subject if you are not personally attached to it but she protected array until he was gone but she was committed after he was gone to this incredibly important work.

that was really, that work was when she really started to come into her own. she had been a dutiful wife you know in public and not involved in the business. he had tried to get her some projects and she didn't want him dictating what her pet projects should be so i think she got a taste of it through that work and then she was off to the races. she saw the power. she was daunted i'm told by people in her family. she was taunted by how much money there was especially once he died but she persevered and recognized that she had this responsibility with his money. that's why gates and buffett are tremendous people, people in the 50% league where they pledge to give away half of their life's worth whatever it is our tremendous but before any of that happened joan had done that

and it wasn't until the end that she pledged to give it all away but still the fact that she did, she proceeded to fall in love with being philanthropic and the power that we all feel when we see someone with less than we have or we should hopefully feel , she did in a big way, an incredible way. >> how much did she give away altogether? >> even in that list i compiled that the end of the book is hard to get a sense of just how much because there were things like, things that came out a sheet for years under roeder freed dental clinic and a poor area of san diego, funded a dentist, funded the whole place and anyone who walked in there got dental care for free. so many things people still don't know about and that were hard to monetize but at the end of her life she had about $3 billion and that's after a lifetime of giving.

she gave away 99% of it. >> that's incredible. as you mentioned so many different causes so time and again throughout the book. she has some causes she was passionate about and sometimes you she would just meet someone and sometimes she would meet somebody who other people would think wouldn't necessarily be the recipient of a donation. >> if she liked to entrust to do and you were doing something cool that she thought needed funding ray and her father both had -- both have hospice care early on in the contemporary american hospice movement. now again that's another wonderful thing we take for granted in our culture. joan met a woman who had a freestanding hospice in san diego and joan was very impressed that someone her age

was a doctor and that was not typical of women in her generation. joan wrote her a check and made it happen and was really committed to seeing the freestanding hospice built so time and again there were instances of that kind of philanthropy and then there were the more calculated things. in addition to the -- being in alcohol is some advocate she later became a peace advocate and she would go in for a schussel he consumed any sort of speeches or lectures about the subject and in the case of other head hurt at notre dame she went up to him afterwards and he talked about wanting to build a peace institute on campus and she said father here is my card. i'd like to help you and he politely said who are you? she was not a well-known person at that point and the next thing you know she's visiting the campus and giving him quite a lot of money to build and ultimately sustain what still

exists today at notre dame. i think that's what really resonated to me about her. i wish i could come up to you and say here's something really cool. what do i need to do to make it happen and? >> i wish we could do. [laughter] >> in kind stuff like that. >> it's a dream to be able to do that. what a cool thing. it's amazing. i love the story about when she decided she wanted to focus on philanthropy entirely and she was done with baseball. she sold the team and found someone who would offer her $50 million it like a business that next. she was like face ball belongs to the people. she had seen even know in the beginning she would say why would you want to buy a monastery and she went from

going not knowing what the heck a baseball game wasn't doing her crocheting at the game two falling in love with it and the chapter about 1984, i won't give it all away here but it is an incredible year for her and the padres did well that year. she saw the power of a spot to coalesce a community and how passionate people were. she wanted to give that team to the people of san diego and it was all set up to be done in a way that was responsible and sustainable and major league face ball that would have meant all that information of the ownership would be public and they didn't want that kind of scenario. it's a real shame because, the same thing with the ranch but she decided she was done with the ranch and she wanted to give it away to the ronald mcdonald house and the community wouldn't let her.

it's too bad that you win some and you lose some. >> he talks about the ronald mcdonald house so that's obviously big part of her legacy as well. >> it didn't start if -- because of mcdonald's are ray or john. they all contributed at some point but it started because of a franchisee who have someone come to him and say they needed to raise money, they wanted to raise money to help people who couldn't stay in a hotel if there child was desperately ill. it was in i always forget the facility in pittsburgh, sorry but it started not through mcdonald's corporate. when ray turned 75 what do you buy a multimillionaire close to billionaire for his 75th birthday? everybody in the circle who had become rich because of mcdonald's shifted money to

start a seed fund so that other mcdonald's regional franchisees could start their own versions of ronald mcdonald house in their various communities. joan gave them quite a lot of money over the course of her lifetime, although not of her money was controversial as mcdonald's. she didn't give it all up to company charity. of course the charity itself is controversial. it's a spectacular charity and anybody who benefited from it says so in you can see the work that they do. of course there are people who take issue with that fact that there is a charitable organization that has a corporate mascot when they hold their conversations. it's another fallacy that mcdonald's started it. >> it's surprising something

that stands out to you to be interesting whether it was a big one or a small one. >> she gave quite a bit of money to the opera and san diego even though she hated the opera. there are is trying to get her to go to the opera. she liked the people behind the opera which is why she gave the money and she thought it was an important cultural institution especially since she and ray were musicians and music. in their lives. they had great parties and they love to have tony bennett come play with them but opera wasn't her thing. i'm told at one point she went to the opera, and went to the ladies room immediately after the opera started and said i will give these people another million dollars if i could just get out of here and go have dinner. [laughter] but why it was so important. >> that's great. [laughter]

i love it. >> what a lady. >> should we take some questions from the audience? if you have a question there's a microphone on the right-hand side. just hop up here and ask any questions. >> can we shout out rapid city south dakota? that was such an interesting part of this experience. there were so many people in rapid city. there's a throwaway line in this book about mcdonald's call behind the arches by john love a prominent writer here in chicago and it was written in 1986 with the help of mcdonald's. the throwaway line about joan and her early franchisee with her husband in rapid city. i thought i've got to find out more about that. there was nothing written about it so i started going around the city which was great in finding people of a certain age to be historical society. a wonderful woman who helped me figure out where the people were

who knew them then. that was just a really fun project. at one point john gets them in rapid city her collection of western art from the ranch that she sold and rapid city just couldn't get it together to build the museum fast enough for her so she yanked it away from them. i say that because she wasn't a pollyanna. she was quirky and i love that about her. >> we have a question. >> so where did ray get this .6 million to buy out say. >> excellent question especially since mcdonald's was on the precipitous life to oblivion. >> mcdonald succeeded. the brothers came up with the fabulous choreography of moving food quickly to the counter and great french fries.

back then they were made by hand, buy a scratch but it was harry's on them born and raised even said it was he who named the floor -- formula that made mcdonald's successful and that was real estate not be. heat came in and he said what you have got here is not about hamburgers. it's about owning the underlying real estate. harriet trundled around the country negotiating loans and buying properties from local banks, with local banks from local owners of property so when the brothers said they wanted $2.7 million, 1 million each and 700 grants to pay the taxes raised and we will pay you overtime in the brother said you were not going to pay us over time. we want the dell now. if you are going to pay us over time the book keep collecting our world peace. we don't want that. they were getting .9% of the

rookies and 1.9% that ray was collecting. ray was in a panic because it made the them more attractive to bankers. they needed to get the brothers in the deal with the brothers out of the equation and harry one out and almost couldn't get the money. that was a lot of money and they were leveraged to the hilt. there's incredible themes about harry dancing as fast as he could under these people called the 12 apostles who actually took the money and took the chance which was enormous that this was not a bad idea. we take it for granted. it wasn't seen as such a great idea. there were people with these 15 send hamburger stands all over the country, mostly mom and pops and smaller regional chains so was like the early days of the internet and yahoo! or google

but kind of. how would that ever make money? will now we know put in the old days harry knew the key to success was real estate and it was he who was the polish businessman. he spoke the language of finance. he's the one who pushed them to go public because that was the only way they were ever going to make money themselves. he's the one to raise the money and it was at the 11th hour. as they say his brothers would have kept humming along the way they were and it's really too bad that there is not more written about harry. i found out as much as i possibly could because he was a genius and even though ray kicked him out later, bought them out and kicked him out of the business ray had him at his 75th birthday party and publicly thanked him for everything that he did and acknowledged that he hadn't come up with the romula it never

would have gone as far as it had >> were their royalty agreements? >> that's why the movie was inaccurate. the buyout terminated the royalty agreement. the same wife i bought your house and wanted to borrow the bathroom you would have to let me in afterwards. they bought them out fair and square and that was the end of their business relationship. ray did something super nasty on top of it but part of the equation was he said the brothers couldn't keep operating their original restaurant because he bought out the trademark. he bought out mcdonald's. he wanted that original restaurant and the brothers had to set up shop, i'm sorry ray got that mcdonald's and then the brothers had to set up shop elsewhere.

the other way around, sorry i'm mixing it up. anyway push them out ultimately the business that they sold out so it's hard for us to fathom and it's not as. >> did joan continue to receive royalties and if so what would the royalties have netted them and their family? >> neither of them had children at the time. he married a man later in a life who have the woman who had sons who had grandsons. i never looked at it but if i would have stayed at "the news york times" how much would my stocks have been worth, i didn't look at that. the brothers wanted out from ray and ray wanted out from the brothers. it was just typical breakup and ray said what is it going to take to make you walk away and

the brothers got back right away and said name your price. they were not budging on the price and they said if he you can't come up with this money of stick around but ray knew if they had this early contract from the very beginning and harry's involvement with the company. they had to continue it was an albatross with the brothers and they didn't want that agreement. they could have have that agreement if they were to go out and keep borrowing money and ultimately filed for an initial public offering. my pleasure. i give much more detail about in the book. >> harry got up big chunk of the money for all the ideas he brought to the table. >> in the early days ray was very generous with that stock because he said it was not worth anything. the chicago transit authority token was worth more money but he gave carried 20% of the stock

and he gave his longtime secretary, who was much more than secretary. she kept the books to, 10% of the stock so when the company went public they had given away more stock to these banks but they still made quite a lot of money. >> in your work do you talk much about raise relationship -- i do write about it in the book and you know what unfortunately wasn't as detailed a relationship that is a thought or hoped it would be. turns out president nixon was supportive of ray who was one of the most famous businessman in the country at the time and certainly one of the wealthiest and notorious because mcdonald's was coming under fire for environmental and nutritional scourge that the

food had become once it went more package than it had been in the early days. ray famously gave 250,000 other gifts to the president, which branded him as a republican supporter. he was republican and he was a conservative but he was not an active politician like the koch brothers, i mean an active supporter of politicians the way the koch brothers might be or others so yes i do talk about that in the book. interestingly jones was on the complete other end of the political spectrum. in fact was a big supporter of walter mondale when he ran for office and she classified herself as an independent. ray called her a patsy. he felt that she was way too left-wing for his tastes. she was smart enough to keep the tour itself while he was alive but the minute he died she let

it all hang out and that's when she became a major peace activists. i write in the book about norman cousins, you rate -- may remember the saturday review editor who was quite as ray would call it bleeding heart. an old mcdonald's executive who i interviewed for this book just by the concept of norman cousins and the antithesis of a hard driving hard drinking businessman but that's the interesting part. that's what i find so fascinating about this story. they were very similar in some ways but they were so different in others and in politics not the least. >> thank you. >> thank you. that's a great question. >> i think we will wrap up if there were no other questions. so you will be signing books, correct? there are many more stories where this came from.

lisa will be available to sign books so thank you all and i hope you had a great day and come back tomorrow again. [applause] >> thanks once again for everyone for attending. the books will be sold and signed right outside of the auditorium.