or post it to our facebook page, facebook.com/booktv. booktv on c-span2, television for serious readers. >> we're so glad 'er here today, we love people are coming to our programs. we are happy to hear larry goldstone. he is currently -- the third -- i don't know if there's another in your series on industrial innovators -- i remember the drive did quite well out of here, the one on ford. another one on the wright brothers as well. going deeps what we talk about tonight, on the development of the military submarine, john phillip holland. can't speak to submarines up out of the three books, planes, cars

and submarine, it's something you'll never find me. in y'all can go deep. i'll let you talk about your book. one quick housekeeping note before we start, if you could all pull out your phones and silence your cell phone you. don't have to turn them off. you can follow us on facebook and twitter but don't want anyone to be that person during the event. anyway, lawrence, welcome. >> thank you. i'm touched. and thank you, kramer books, for hosting and booktv. for those of you who know my work, which is probably not many of you, i've written on any number of thingsment wherein on history of medicine, rare books, written on constitutional law, i've written on reading to kids, i've written on innovation, and so i'm usually asked -- i know all of you now are dying to now how do you find topics? and this topic was kind of came

in a torturous way, and it all started with my daughter's piano teacher, and my daughter's piano teacher was woman in named very nona gomez, a strike leg bull woman in her 60s who would show up at out hour, 9:00 sunday morning, dresses as if she was about to good to a formal ball, and teach my daughter piano. we were not dressed nearly as nicely. she was a little eccentric and one day she said, larry, how do you write a book? and that is generally a long answer. and i started to think about how to deit. she said i've down interviews with 344 people and a lot of interview width my father and i want to turn it into a book say. , okay, who is your sister well, her father was vernon gomez, known at lefty gomez, new york yankee hall of fame baseball

pitcher, babe right's best friend, joe dimaggio's roommate, and she had done an extraordinary job and lefty was known for in addition to being a hall of fame pitcher and knowing these people, known for a none of eccentric stunts and bizarre -- he said things like jimmy fox, a great celebrity, said he has muscles in his hair. lefty was known for this. and one of the things lefty was known for was his love of aviation, of airplanes. in 1937 during the world series game in front of a packed crowd, lefty stops pitch to watch an airplane go overhead. it made all thank you newspapers. ans were on top and it was a big deal. one thing discovered was that lefty had gained his love of aviation in 1915 as a six-year-old boy, at the san

francisco worlds fair, watching the greatest aviator of the age, man named lincoln beachy. and i had never heard of lincoln beechy, so i looked it up and discovered that not only was he greatest aviator of his age but with apologies to chuck yeager, almost certainly the greatest everiator who lived him did things that were so amazing that no one would have believed him except he did them in front of half a million people in a country of 75 million people, about 20 million people were estimated to have seen lincoln beechy fly. me head more money in one day than most americans made in a year. he performed these amazing feats of -- in front of literally half a million people. for example in the great -- first great chicago air fare in 1911 he wanted to brake the assaultitude record which is 11,200 feet. and this is over lake michigan,

chicago, a half a million people, and there are pictures. nothing i'm about to tell you about him is made up. the only way he can do it he realized is to use all his fuel on the way up. so the megaphone man comes down, 25,000 people in the crowd 4 , hundred thousand plus along the lakefront, beechy takes off, goes up, and he is a dot in the sky, and remember, these airplanes had no cabins no fuselage. these were open frames. the only way to keep warm is to stuff newspapers in their clothes. there will no instruments. the engines were behind behind . no way of knowing -- the only way he knew he would run out of fuel is when he ran out of fuel. they did have an instrument that could kind of measure altitude, and he did it. got 11,641 feet, and the little dot in the sky gets bigger and bigger and bigger and all these people can see the propeller is

frozen because peachy used all his fuel on the way up and is out over lake michigan, and they don't chicago the windy city for nothing. he circles and circle, coming down to 11,600 feet and land his airplane not 200 people from where he took off in front of the crowd. now, that is flying. now i, shy go on submarine buzz he is too good so i'll tell you one more story. in the next chicago air fair in 1912 he announce head trained a woman if aor named clarice, and this woman can now fly as well as any man. and sure enough, the megaphone man announces, that lease comes us wearing a heavy coat and hat to keep warm, gets the airplane and takes off, and it is immediately apparent that not only can clarice not fly as well as any man, she cannot fly at all. first thing she does is buzz the

crowd and everybody ducks. she guess over lake michigan, coming within seemingly inches of crashing into the water. then rights the plane a little bit and then ends -- this is all in the "chicago tribune." out over michigan avenue, flying so low that the wheels of the airplane are bouncing on the tops of automobiles on michigan avenue. and people are just terrified, and then clarice kind of rights the plane and does some basic stuff and lands the airplane, and everybody applauds because they didn't witness a fatality, and clarice gets out of the airplane, attacked off the hat and he wig comes with and it's lincoln beechy. he was so good, all of these near death things -- events were things he did because he was so good at flying that he could come within inches of the lake and bounce his wheels on the tops of automobiles. so anyway, i did a little more

reading and i found there was a bunch of other people. they may not have been -- quite as proficient at beechy but just as good. i proposed a back to my editor called "the exhibitionists: lincoln beechy and the romance of death and the early era of flight. "the editor said, these are interesting but nobody has ever heard of these people. i thought what was a selling point but you don't know publishing if said, can you work the wright brothers into the title? the exhibitionists, the wright brothers and the romance -- didn't have the same zip. but i agreed to look at it. this was before david mccullough's book, and so i looked -- i thought it's a waist of time. i agreed to look into the wright

brothers, and i figured, there's nothing knew to write about the wrights. and i discovered that there was a lot that was knee.

he did not thfnt assembly line or mass production or the automobile. there was no component of the automobile that henry ford invented but he was brilliant at hiring people and firing people. he was brilliant at understanding what the harkt

market wanted and creating a product even when it wasn't the best product the holds t was never good of automobile say the buick 10. but he had this ability and he had a toughness, and so i wrote another book called drive which was about early automoteive technology because i found wilbur wright and henry ford to be contrasted in kind of interesting ways. and when doing the automobile book, i came across another character, and his name was isaac lee, and nobody ever writes about isaac rice. isaac rice was fascinating came here a boy of six and musicologist he was head of the political science one of the first political science professors at columbia. he was a chess master, built found in new york cheeses club by play games with the world

champions. he founded a magazine called forum which was an intlek journal and made himself a small fortune in his early 30s restructuring railroads. restructuring is the kind of thing that's done now this is not financial training and he could look at balance sheet and figure out what to do. one of the things that isaac writes he was also a visionary. and one of the things that he focused in on was electricity. and in the early 1890s, the best battery at the time he realized that you could have battery powered streetcar and battery poweredded boats and he focused in on something called battery a led acid process which was run -- which was owned by a promoter

named william warren gibbs and he bought gibb out bought the patent and then looked arranged for applications for his bats reis and he by the way he improved with no engineer manyinging train he improved design of the battery to make it lighter and have a longer life. and one of the things he found was automobiles, and in 1898, isaac rice introduced the first commercial fleet of vehicles in the world certainly in the united states, i think, in the world it was a fleet of 12 electric taxis in new york city. and it was -- it was brilliantly done he had a charging says and how just i can't go into detail because it was about submarines haven't gotten to i know but it was just so amazingly done and in february of 1889 there was a blizzard in new york city. that stopped everything even horses couldn't get by except

isaac rice's electric taxis and in both books in drive and in going deep, there's a picture in 1889 of one of these electric taxis negotiating streets after this blizzard. so the stock price of the electric vehicle company goes from $20 a share to $120 a share. isaac rice is -- is approached by two -- kind of hustlers. one was a man named william collins withwhen i who does been secretary of the navy under glover cleveland, and was the patriarch of the whitney fortune and stockbroker with one of the great names ever in finance. this was his real name he didn't change it. he was thomas fortune arena. and ryan an whitsny and peter in philadelphia buy out rice. and proceed to create this paper company, and they're just about to get indicted for fraud and they have to go through -- that's the other book.

but that's one of the reasons we "don't ask, don't don't have electric cars right now that's one of the reasons they stop dead was -- what whitney and thomas fortune ryan did to the car. but anyway so isaac rice has all of this money and he's looking around for places to put it, applications because he still believes in -- electricity. and he find, discovers told ab man named john phillip holland who has a contract with the navy to build a submarine to build undersea craft . and he goes to town, but colin is run out of man. for reasons well -- the navy had just put ridiculous specifications which we'll get to in a little bit. to rice agrees to finance the entire operation. he agrees to deal with the government bureaucrats in return holland has to sign over his

patents not to rice personally. but to the new corporate entity called the electric boat company. and electric boat many of you may e know exist as part of the nuclear submarines, and when i -- found that out, i started looking into john phillip holland, and he became another one of these fascinating characters he was born in ireland in 1840s in county claire, he grew up in a household with a spoke gaelic rather than english and he was a choir master and studied with a christian brothers before to take his final vows he decided not to -- not to enter the priesthood. he had no mechanical training he had no mathematical training or engineering training. his brother one of his brothers -- came across to the

united states in the wake of the potato famine a million people died out of 8 million and another million forced to leave many of them came to the united states. and it -- it spurred a number of -- irish nationalist groups that believed that peaceable, peaceful transition was not going to happen and only way to do it was to kind of force britain to do it. and it was the irish brotherhood in -- kind of the precursor of the irish republican army and irish brotherhood in great britain and in america called finiana and active with with them, and holland came across to the meetings. and they were this kind of odd group. they were kind of the gang that couldn't shoot straight for the gang who couldn't shoot straight so he have weerld plans to invade canada to do it twice and

hired a strategist to help them and he turned out to be a agent of the british secret service and start a government in exile and irish goth exile in giana for reasons that are obscure, and they fought among themselves almost as much as they fought in the british and holland goes to meetings and he said i'm going to -- i'm going to invent secret weapon i'm going to design is for you a secret weapon that will sink british warships. and he gives hem this design and there's still pictures of it one man craft which -- is technically feasible and the finians says quiet, soft spoken man thank you that's, that's really nice and you know we'll call you when we need you. and -- among, about at the same time they hatched their most bizarre

weirdest -- most ridiculous plot yet. six of their colleagues, six had been sentenced to life in prisonment in free mantle australia on west coast of australia. it was almost impossible to get to this was a prison that needed no walls because there was no place to escape to. there was a small town, and then the final colony, and they decide what they're going to do is they're going to get a boat and go into some -- sympathetic sea captain, he's going to give them a ship. they're going to sail to australia. they're going to convince the command that of the prison that her british inspectors even think they all clearly -- spoke there were all clearly from ireland they were british inspectors. the british as british inspectors they were able to contact prisoners tell them what

had to do. hide a row boat. the prisoners would then and they were all trustees to get into the row boat go out to this ship and sail back to america to hero's welcome. it was a bizarre plan. but it worked. and ship was called the k oorks chalpa1876 they sailed to west coast of australia. the british -- come to enter and must have been so happy to see anybody about -- that he just said sure, yes. oh, i would love to give you a tour pep and he gives them such a tour and one slips away and talk to a six prisoner and did put the row boat in. prisoners are trustee its they go to work in the town but instead of -- there's no place to escape to instead of going to the town they get in a row boat and roll are out to where it is forced to anchor out in the bay for security reasons. and -- all of a sudden a british

patrol boat that georgette sees them starts sailing toward them cannot get to them before they get there but threatens to fire if the prisoners get onboard. the captain runs up to stars and stripes and said if you fire on this ship, you fire on the united states of america. the georgette retreats the six prisoners get in their ship. they have a raucous and wonderful voyage home which must have included a great deal of drinking. they get off in new york and in 1876 to heros welcomes, and all of a sudden the finians are a wash in money and such a big teal that everybody thinks these guys are brilliant and they give them money and off -- they start thinking you know this guy -- this -- this brother, this holland fellow

maybe we should give had him a little hundred. and they did they gave him $15,000. and john holland went off, and built the first primitive but effective mods earn submarine can had he tested near pathser son, new jersey which is still to this day it sank but dredged up -- this in the museum and now they are really interested because oh -- maybe we've got something here. and they give him more money and in total secrecy holland is told to go off and build the next generation of real boat. the problem is they couldn't do anything in total secrecy. they talked about it so much that a reporter from the new york sun was there essentially everyday watching being built

and writing about it and even named it it according to he named the boat the ram and holland liked name so he adopted the name, the finian ram also in the patterson museum. so holland test the ram and he has ideas, and the fighting and upset that other faction seems to have the ear of this new submarine designer so they kidnap the boat. sneak with a forged letter from holland. they hook the boat up to their own ship and tow it to connecticut. in connecticut hay operate it themselves and discover it is not quite as easy to operate this as they thought so they get many touch with holland who is

furious and they said excuse me, could you -- could you tell us could you teach us how to drive this. and he said, you know, no. penn i can holland there went off to try to sail the boat to the navy. submarines aren't like surface vessels when i learned when i did bird men there's three axis of motion there's roll side to side, pitch, front to become and there's basically keeping it -- straight. on surface ships, you don't have the had had many of those issues. because the density of air is much less than the deniesty of water so balanced ship sits in the water and if it tilts it will tilt back and if it pitches forward, unless it is not too far it will move back. under the water that's not true because water pressure is equal

all around. so you have to control submarine under the water in the same threat axis that airplane has to be controlled and this was an enormously difficult engineering problem. for example, if the center of gravity what that fire fascinated if it shifts and boat tilts water and use water for balance because you need to keep, put weight in a boat and it's like this, and water has run to the front of the boat -- it goes down and it keeps going down. as many submarine designers found out to their apparel many, many people died and some of them died because they couldn't figure out how to keep the boat steady in the water. how to control the boat keep it going straight is. how -- there changes, any change in weight anywhere in the boat had

will change the center and tend change center of gravity. the other thing was -- the engine if you lose power, and the boat is heavier than the water negatively buoyant, it will sink. and there's no way to get out unless you didn't swim to the top. they didn't go very deep in those days. holland too brilliant things were to keep boy positively buoyant and thick center of gravity and get to that in a second. airplane undersea travel like air travel has been -- has been a fascination of human kind for forever. leonardo all sorts of people hypothesis isaac newton about travel in the air and underthe water one tended toot the other. the first reported successful

submarine was in 1620 by a man named cornelius and he was a dutch inventor who went across to the court of james the first convinced james that he could bring all of these marvels and james put him in a palace up near greenwich and supposedly rebel invented this machine, this kind of closeted wooden structure with ores that would be kept under the water by the momentum of the ores, and he went supposedly he went back and forth from greenwich to london and supposedly james the first even got in the boat except problem was that james the first at the that time was like 300 pounds and notoriously timid he was a fraughted. but reports and if you look, if you google submarine you'll see

models and museums across the world because he was so successful at perpetrating this fraud that people not only didn't know he had never -- almost certainly never created a submarine but real invent tores brilliant people robert boyle the founder of modern chemistry is started investigating edmond comet who did basic be diving started investigate manying possible of undersea travel drebl had done it. there was a man named denny a frenchman who created supposedly create ared a submarine and there was a -- a 1747 -- article in gentleman's magazine and there was a picture and

invented pressure cooker, and if you look at the illustration, it is almost certainly the pressure cooker and not the submarine. but all of this research came to the attention of a man from brook connecticut a farmer's son named david bushnell, and at -- at dawn of the revolutionary war people at yale -- bushnell kept terrifying them because they would go to bodies of water and there would be explosions in the night. because bushnell was trying to figure out how to settle for charge underwater and reason he was doing this was because he also was going to create a secret weapon. he also was going to sink british warship and in this particular case, he was aiming admirable houseship the eagle and what he did was put two hollow logs together and bonged them up. he had one operator. the balance taken in and over

pumps. the -- it was a foot peldz or hand pedal to move it forward. a tiller to move it and impossible to figure out how wound could have done all of the operations and what the plan was to pedal this this was to go on surface and under eagle go up to the top and he had an auger built in the top. the guy would with screw it in. place a charge. charge would go off and eagle would sink is. unfortunately -- the eagle was a metal clan underneath, and the august per did not pen strait so bushnell's operator wasn't bushnell himself. fuel so he's trying to get back and he's spotted they're shooting at him and charge goes off unfortunately. the turtle successfully gets back to this is in new york harbor he gets back to new jersey where they have launched it from and try two more times and it didn't work. bush mel after the revolutionary

war is very upset that washingtd not give himg the credit and in a huff had went off to france and stayed with a painter named benjamin west and him and west was a premier portraits painter who ingratiated himself into french society. and he stayed in paris for a while eventual lie leaves and comes back as dr. bush and dies in obscureity and realize this is david bushnell. while he's in paris, either while he is just before he leaves or just after a he leaves, another american shows pup and this american is a brilliant young portrait paint we are a fabulous remmation in philadelphia painting people like benjamin franklin.

he came to no excuse me this was in britain first. he goes -- and he goes to britain, that's where west was he was painted george the third. so terrible. anyway. just back that up and replace britain with france he's copainted for the thirds and this -- other american portrait painter or showed up. and instead of staying with that he gets into engineerings that for him and way toe qawlize quarter in canals without locks, and then turns his attention to submarines so whether or not there's no -- he had no -- there was no previous interest that it seemed. now whether or not bushnell and

this american portrait painter stays overlapped or not it feels talked about in the west home. and eventually he designs a boat called the and napoleon interested but nothing comes of it. the english at that point won him back not because they believe in the invention but they don't want him selling it to anybody else. so this portrait painter goes back to england and no interest there. he comes back to america, turns his -- his attention to surface vessels and discovers claremont which is the first steamship and it is robert fulton. between after fulton there's lots more research and the next big step forward was during the civil war. and it was by the confederate

states of america who were desperate and needed a secret weapon so they thought. and they developed two kinds of votes one they call the david as david and goliath which was -- howard by a steam engine and the other one was they couldn't power it and man yulesly powered and it was called a hunkly and that bail the first submarine to sink a warship. another warship. it sank the husatanic are charged one off, it sank, and a little sank because water -- they were doing to on the surface. one of the things about innovation is although we tend to remember the winners and we tend to remember the people who actually did it. it is almost always -- that person among a group of people who are moving everything

forward who are getting closer and closer and closer, gutenberg we remember from precincting with movable type there were lots of people getting closer and closer and closer. the wright bros. there were any number of people, in fact, there was someone in 1899 who inday who actually used a wright brothers wing work in 1903 an a glider. he was instructor at yale, and it was successful and doing war with it and he went back to fellow strurktses at yale and said i'm doing this. he said no there's no future this it. just give it up go do something else and he went and did something else so instead of that day we remember the wright brothers that's miff you were saving to sending your kids to yale. so we have holland coming along.

there are efforts in efforts in turkey and greece an buying design. one with place curiously where there was no real interest in submarine technology was germany. after a the fenian ram was kidnapped and holland then turns his attention to the united states. he eventually persuades or not directly but through, through reputation persuades secretary of the navy at the time williams collins whitney to find best competition for the best design and whoever creates best to get $2,000 to build a boat. holland wins but there are now other people of a man named george baker eventually simon lake and they convince whitney they convince the navy, there's a change of administration, and

they convince the power to be not to dispense money but to have a new competition. so they have another competition and holland wins again. again -- they are persuaded not to dispense money but to have a third comp education and they have a third competition and holland wins the third time. by this time there's a man named simon lake who was very well known in submarine technology circles mostly because lake was a brilliant designer but boats went straight down. they just dropped, and he had wheels on the bottom. he was -- interest was salvage and he made a fortune doing it. but he was telling everyone that his boats are better -- and he so much afterwards that simon likes reputation there was people that thought simon did things that holland did. he wins third competition and this time he actually gets the money and he's got a couple of business partners at this time.

and by this time -- and puts a number of restrictions they want steam instead of gasoline or hydrocarbons well steam engines run incredibly hot. and you can't -- how do you vent, how do you vent the spent exhaust? there were -- the first shift had to have flee. holland wanted one propeller navy wanted two. who'll lands rebuild one with three. the only way he realized it was running out of money and realized only way he could actually satisfy the contract and build a real boat that would work was to build one on his own. privately funded where he could they be show the navy and say okay. this is what it should look like and that's when isaac rice came in and they did build it holland six -- a lot of times just abbreviate

to holland and it works and got better and simon lake and from there -- i don't to go into detl because i don't to ruin book for all of you but from there amazing story of congressional therm competing on who could buy their own congressman. how to get influence. simon lake started stories that isaac rice is yacht to josephine was this -- was this sight of back indalia with congress ma ferried out with with -- and implied with drink, oyster and new swimming in order to vote, and these stories actually they were all in the newspapers and there were two major con depressional investigations, and the cast of characters is just hilarious it's the kind of thing that if you try to do in fiction, a fiction either would say look, this is, you know -- you're either doing this as a comedy or straight story. and ultimately, isaac rice and

eb frost who was a originally holland's partner and then became rice's partner force pod rice out of his own business. rice -- had developed a fast attack submarine that design which was tested the records are a little sketchy. but he had a boat that he -- that was reported to be able to do 22 knots when they were doing 8 knots with -- with the boats they had. so it was this, you have this situation where the man so just to go back to the whole innovation issue. so you have this issue, you have wilbur wright who was utterly brilliant investor one of the great scientists in tour scientist this is country has ever produced who chose i'm not going into birdman but who chose to tox on his business and

instead in 1909 they took in all sorts of high powered informs tore and wilbur back to improve the right flyer instead micromanage patent suit and a subsequently killed him. last letter wilbur wrote in his life was not while he was dying was not to a family member but a pat engt attorney complaining about slow progress of the patent suit and how much money it was costing him and henry ford with a reputation as a great investor but actually not investor at all but a brilliant businessman, and then you have john phillip holland who was a pure nfns nngt tore but willing to go into business and willing unlike wilbur wright willing to let other people better people rung the business -- and subsequently he was frozen out of it. so for me it parallels to automobile and a the airplane,

and they are -- they have lessons not simply -- when i do a book i always try to do something where history is very pertinent to the present and these three books were, it's like reading about silicon valley is startups where somebody invents something run out of his business and complains and here just -- c of a more complex situation. but ceo of über who is arguably changed the way americans will travel are in higher cars is now out of o his own company and had had other personal problems, but these issues that i uncovered in three books seem to me so pertinent that that's why they were, they were really fun to do. i really so many something is the whole i didn't get a chance had to do congressional stuff and procurement and how money was dispensed and it is one we

don't have time but it is an absolutely wonderful story. and i -- it was just there's a 147,000 page record of the investigation and ordinarily when you research this and i don't have researchers i do it all myself. i wouldn't have time to read this but i couldn't -- i literally couldn't put it down. it is -- this telegram this response, this telegram, this response, this accusation. one guy who is accusing people is accused of being insane it just it wonderful stories last thing i'll give you is this: i hope the open the book with a incident on september 22nd, 1914 when a u9 sinks three british cruisers off the coast of holland. and within 90 minutes, and 15 to 1700 people die.

and while at sea on that day, wasn't the first sinking but one other and that flee boats that were sunk change the face of modern warfare. irony is the one country in the mid-19, early 1900s with no interest in submarine was germany because admiral the heads of their navy thought it was a gimmick. but in 1905, president roosevelt went down in a submarine unlike james the first who didn't -- and he went off oyster bay front seat page news all over the world -- it there's no record leaking the two. but coins dengtly within 12 to 18 months the company has a contract from the german navy to begin to build submarines and commissioned in 1909 and 1914 captain lieutenant, sinks the

three british cruisers. he died since months later, and warfare is changed forever. so with that if any of you have any questions i would be pleased to answer -- oh. come somebody. [laughter] there you are. >> so with three different innovative -- [inaudible conversations] how much of it was a military interest -- and -- [inaudible conversations] that's a good question simon lake was definitely commercial. i explored yeah, but mostly the fact that you could -- lake discovered that all of these ships that had had sunk that if you have coal and all of the precious cargo and devised ways to actually get it out and talking like a brilliant guy.

but the money lake eventually believed that he had to go into a attack submarine into because that's where the money was. lake for all of the money he made and he made a fortune ended up he was always short of money because it cost so much to do all of the research. so everyone was looking as in many many innovations everyone was looking at the military application first. and this civilian and the civilian applications would follow. and because in this this case, a submarine performing the way we thought a submarine should the way they did did in verns was very much what howard was working on and duck tailed the military application. yes. i have one here. >> so you -- you clearly have an eye for good stories is here, and revolve around innovation

and i wonder what your personal experience was to you also talk about several people who didn't have formal training but how far you had gotten even with just researching these stories storih engineering aspect -- >> it's interesting i have no -- i have no engineering training i'm a -- american historian and political scientist by nature. by training but when you start one of the tricks to writing the kind of books is to take complex concepts and make them applicable it a general reader what i want is for -- ordinary readers to be able to go oh, yeah, i get that. i see how had that happened. and in order to do that, i've got to simplify, i have to take a lot of complexity that would

ordinarily be intrinsic to subject out and figure out if i can figure out how it works in a reasonable way then i can write how it works in a reasonable way. excuse me. so while i don't have training, as i read, and for example, i, you know, i wouldn't know who about aerodynamic but basic concepts i learned enough about that i'm asked to speak in front of nautical engineers but how do you do that? a lot of it it will is how you read the material. there's one other o thing i should say, the internght internet has provided wealth and material that's absolutely stunning. in there's a magazine called aeronautics not just the text

but actual magazine to turn pages and see the adds. they have all sorts of scientific, american was a welt for all three books. technical world, there were all of these engineering journals, so i am able to read through the progress of any of these innovations kind of as the people who were learning about them are reading and some of them you read and you -- some of the articles and scientist american and prestigious journals they're ridiculous in the face of other -- of later knowledge but that's what they knew at the time so one of the things i can do because of the internet and because of of all of these sites is to work my way through the development of one of these innovations kind of as the people who were either doing it or monitoring of it or investing in it so it's an amazing and really fun. it's just leafing through these journals. there are pictures in

aeronautics and in -- automobiles particularly. there were pictures that have never been reproduced. you know, wilbur had his teeth knocked out playing hockey-like game and no picture of him smiling and there's a picture of him in one and like he smiles that without opening his mouth so all you learn about people and i learned about -- john phillip holland as he gave a lot of quotes. so you learn about from their contemporary and people writing about them so a fun and cool exercise. yes, sir are. >> let me ask you something -- i grew up in the caribbean, and i'll be told a story that during world war ii -- it was born and aruba one of the big -- you know united states got a lot of eye from you but -- [inaudible conversations] that you know the german that

come with marines in place. what i want to ask is a lighter question off of that is how do you see because so worried about that france -- and like that too. what do you see that do you believe that submarine during it horrific nautical era in the netherland played within keep things from exploding you know a difficulty to say okay hear like a plane you can still have this first thing and how do you see -- submarines technology moving in essence military. that become like drones, what is the idea moving forward with these type of things? you know, maybe doing research coming up with something -- [inaudible conversations] >> that is a difficult question for me and particularly because we have two gentleman had in the

audience who actually know what they're talking about. so i'm going to be really -- really careful here. my first with graduate school was think tank place called hearts of ?iewts and they did war study all of the time. and the -- notion of assured mutual destruction which is which everyone hates when you're dealing with people who do it this stuff all of the time you may hate it. but they believe it has keep the peace. so weaponry, the more sophisticated and more destruct isive weaponry becomes riskier it is. but also the more of deterrent it is generally to war. now, i'm not going to take the position on this. because the question is, how do you balance the risk of this immense power against the

deterrence because lesser, lesser weapons throughout history have been used much more frequently. people stick and conspiracy and we work our way up. poise on gas for example have been used almost not at all it's some -- and nuclear weapons have not been used in -- 60, 70 years. the answer is so i don't know . in terms of whether submarine technology is going to become more sophisticated -- yes. certainly -- everything is going to become more. it's -- i have a chapter in one of my books which i titled the progression of knowledge and we -- we as a species simply move forward, and we have not demonstrated as a species the ability to control our -- movement through technology be it cloning or we have often

tried to control it after the fact so if you're asking me do i think that it becomes more sophisticated less human based war, sure. you know, why wouldn't it? is that a more dangerous situation? probably -- but again these, these are issues none of these issues are simple if you're always blangsing one thing against another. these are not -- this is never something where you can say -- oh, that's obvious. you know, we it may be obvious we shouldn't use nuclear weapons again. but how do you not develop nuclear options when there's an enemy doing it so a greater and greater populations closer and closer proximity. more and more sophisticated technology that we as a species are going to have to deal with or much of had this -- amazing progress we have made as a species will be wiped away, and

people will have to come to grips with those questions. and will they? i don't know. i hope so. anyone else? yes, sir. >> this is a topic thanks so much for giving it i'm interested because you talked about how they kept running out of money and people trying to push these projectses forward that made me think do you think perhaps that -- the business side of this might be be essential in actually making inventions and does knowledge have all role? >> that was a great question i remember he ran for president and he said comt democrats love employment but they hate employers and also in one of my many -- existence i worked on wall street for a while. will is --

like everything else aspects to the world of finance that have been absolutely essential to human progress. there are also aspects in the world of finance that have hugeo human progress. so if you're asking is business essential? it is essential that someone who knows how to translate an idea even a property type into a commercial, military application we need those people because with wilbur and john phillip holland and people that henry ford employed you see if it is left to them things dead end a lot. do we need like -- this is very similar to this question, do we need in some way to control or manage how we deal with those financial interests, the answer to that is, of

course, yes and again we come down to this choice how much ho of one are you willing to accept to get -- some of the other. but if you're asking me do i think that business side is essential is necessary to move things forward, it always has been, and i suspect it always will be. you know, it's one other thing i'm going to say is that -- things are initiated often with the best of intentions because of me. and then there's a level of corruption. i don't mean to say corruption with bribery but there's a level of -- that or corruption that comes with anything as it matures. so the trick is -- to keep things vibrant and in silicon valley now or o periods i wrote about one of the things that was so great was that the things were just -- television one thing after

another and things wept vibrant and people investing in things failed and things succeeded but then reach a period of maturity where you're with the last dollar or ring the little bit of that u out of innovation and that goes other way. but thanks yes. picking up on that start about -- asking specification to look like and it made the me think of the current situation with the air force and australian air force is also buying into this particular fighter jet known as flying crutch. because every innovation aside that plane will catch on fire or the pilots are going to be denied oxygen or this is in its way of the budget and seems that

somehow i'm interested that where inventer had a control and might have been a success and i'm wondering in studies that you have done in this land sea and air it's this -- had had a look at this particular exercise of this strategy and to see if there are if not parallels with such differences that you could say well from previous experience. but i will say this, there are examples when an investor has been frozen out of his own company and the company has suffered. there are examples with the inventor maintained control wilbur demanded control of his own company and ruined it. there was not single innovation there's not a single aspect to

modern airline the wright brothers technology was dead end technology and the wrights wilbur while he was alive insist on maintaining this wing working technology which was dead end so there you have an example of an invent tore utterly brilliant but then you have other examples where -- an inventor are shunted away prematurely. john who'll holland is other said and allowed to stay in the company isaac rice and partners saw they didn't want to deal with more innovation because they had spent enough money they have the rocket, the product was going to sell and why have to invest more many this fast attack submarine when you have a detached submarine that nobody else has so you have the opposite, and the problem is when dealing with these issues from my business experience i can tell you there's no rules.

there's no -- there's no nothing you can say oh, it's that always. a case by case situation. on purchasing side and financial side how good, how what kind of foresight do they have? it all depends so you look and you, you know, we all want rules. used to work and it's about the role of chance and it's how much people wantrd what and fast. they want to know they want certainty but it simply doesn't work like that. anyone else? yes. >> section will be greedy one you've got a huge enthusiasm and

curiosity, just and then my brief experience with meeting you and knowing your books about adventure and about ideas and you seem to be very interested in that. is that something you always strove for. are you really drawn to -- thinkers and creative actors? >> oh, first of all thank you. no -- actually. my evolved bird man and patent lawsuits this third one doesn't. but i write about constitutional law by training, and i -- again, historically always from a political side i'm not a lawyer. starting constitutional convention, and through the end of the 19th century. but when i'm drawn to are are as a historian, there's a people

who ignore lessons of history it's so true. people say yes we should all study history and all worry about history and then proceed to ig mother ignore it and i like shining a light on present by using the past. so if i'm writing about history of constitutional law, i'm writing about issues that were decided say by strict construction after a the civil war if i'm writing about this, with i'm writing about the kinds of people who were involved now so i'm drawn, i'm drawn to examples and -- american history where i like and i say yes this is essentially now. this is -- immediately to your left is a book guns of august by barbara you know barbara tuckman for narrative historian is like god because she's -- brilliant writer, she could, she could encapsule entire concept

in one line she was is right there with one of her books that kale out during vietnam era so that's what i'm looking for and trying to find ways to use the past to enlighten the present. [inaudible conversations] one more real quick about your methodology and always the same does it have a similar pattern. how do you just is dive in on day one when you decide i'm going to write about the first attack submarine. what do you do on monday morning when you get up is there a pattern or every book is different. >> every book is different but this one, one leads to another. sometimes people will just tell me things. one woman reminded me of a supreme court case buck belle which was the -- when a young woman was sterilized it against her will and out of ow holmes wrote three

generations is enough not one of the decision that he had likes in a memoir that got me interested in holmes and i went become on pounds another case in 1903 case -- a voting rights case in alabama recently on the court and wrote another terrible -- wrote a decision justifying disenfranchising black people from voting roles in alabama and i said okay i have to write -- i have to write about this. sometimes they're dead ends. i was going to write about that bell but a lot of people had done it. you read around but that steve harris that sentdz me off in that other direction. so it's just that process you're just is always looking and it's you're attuned you know when you do this for a living things click and you go -- who? there's supreme court decision now as soon as i -- this notion of cooperations being people, for example, started in 1886,

with to supreme court decision and it wasn't even in the decision. it was in a side by the chief justice who said we believe 14th amendment guarantees a corporation. this after disenfranchising african-american so i have to write about that too and that's kind of how it works. porntion >> now with internght for that literally good old fashioned -- >> absolutely. you know, mow used to be buried in paper but internet, server is down, no! >> okay well so good or old fashioned. you follow trails. it's just -- they're like this you're like a detective. and you just see something you see a clue and like toipght follow that. i want to follow it and you do and sometime it is leads someplace and sometimes it dupght. there are times where you spend

a lot of time researching something and you go -- bum ire that's the word it is bummer is a term historians use a lot. anyone else? well thank you very much. thank you all for coming. [applause] thank you to if you have a chance to lean your chairs along the side to walk around with peace. he'll be signing books for us and more wine available for you should you desire. i'll grab books -- book it have recently visited capitol hill to ask members of congress what they're reading this summer. >> so today i'm going to talk about two books one that i'm

currently read and one that i will read next first book is called presence by amy you may have seen her with second most popular head talk, and she talk bs importance of how you carry yourself and having your self-of terms of being present in all situations. it is garn period a global following and i'm currently reading right now. i recommend to anyone whether you're a student whether you're in high school or whether you're a ceo of a company. it helps, it help you realized your full potential and great especially when we want to encourage young women to achieve their full potential. one book i'm looking forward to reading i have here today is called glass universe how the ladies of the harvard observatory took the measure of the stars. the author is dava who you may be familiar with, she wrote with a best selling book called gallowaya daughter so astronomy so i'm excited to read this book when i was growing up had in

middle school and high school i was passionate about science and interested in astronomy and i twoangt astron ismy camp summer after my junior year and i'm proud of it. as a policy maker today i'm focused on promoting education in the stem and steamfield so science, technology, engineering arts and math and this this book highlights women in the late 19th century who were mostly wives -- daughters, neighbors, family friends of male scientist and astronomers and these women who didn't have technical training they started the process of analyzing, millions of glass plates of images taken of -- the taken of the stars. because this was the onset of astrophotography an they made tremendous break throughs in the study of astronomy so i'm looking forward to read this book as well. i hope you will too as you look up at the stars in the sky. >> booktv wants to know what you're reading. send us your as you recall

reading list via twitter at booktv or instagram atbook underscore book tv or post it our facebook page facebook.com/booktv. booktv on c-span2 television for serious readers. >>ing and booktv is on location, on the campus of ucla we're talking to professors here who are also authors and history professor joe law is our guest coauthor of this book american war, the history of the civil war era. joan wahg give us a snapshot of the united states. >> the first year of the decade that brought on this secession crisis and led to the civil war. 1850 was the year that california came into the union. 1850 was also t