president reagan. and pulitzer prize winning author joseph - looks at the final months of the life of president franklin d roosevelt. in his final battle. tonight starting at 8 o'clock eastern on c-span2. clinton administration advisor, sidney blumenthal has been a biography of abraham lincoln titled "wrestling with his angel: the political life of abraham lincoln". he spoke about the book at the annual chicago tribune printers row lit fest. this is 45 minutes. >> good afternoon everyone and welcome to the 33rd annual chicago tribune printers row lit fest. my name is tom and i would like to thank all of the festival sponsors for keeping us going this long. today's program is being broadcast live on c-span2's booktv. we will be having time to take some questions toward the end of the program so when time comes please line up at the

microphone at your right so that the home the audience can hear questions good with that i will go to our interview, elizabeth taylor, literary editor at large as chicago tribune. [applause] >> are these microphones on? great! you can hear me? thank you so much for coming out. this is a wonderful turnout for a wonderful book. and we are delighted to be here. in this chair one year ago i was here talking about the first volume of sidney blumenthal for volumes on lincoln.i'm excited about this one. i love that one and this was even more rich. so, "wrestling with his angel: the political life of abraham lincoln".

it begins in march 1849, lincoln returned to springfield to practice law. 1849. and then 1856 the know nothing party nominates for president, national convention for the republican party, so we have that backdrop, the title, what is it about? >> "wrestling with his angel: the political life of abraham lincoln" it is a title that i took from the story of jacob. it is from the bible. in the bible, jacob wrestles through a long night. possibly with himself. the bible says an angel. at the ends of the night, and with the break of dawn, he comes to a realization of who he is and adopts a new name. israel. lincoln wrestles through a long night.

it is a long, dark night. the last years. he enters it coming home to springfield. after one term in the congress. he ends it by founding the illinois republican party. and adopting his own new identity and emerging with his cause. . so this is the story of how lincoln became the man that is recognizable to us today. if we met lincoln at the beginning of this story, we would not recognize him as the lincoln of history. by the end he is lincoln. >> so interesting. i want to get into lincoln the man but also you do a wonderful job of setting the stage for all of these events through the politics and culture.

let's talk about this fascinating president. in recent years is depicted as melancholy, was he depressed? people ask. but i think you have a really interesting take on that. i'm just wondering if you can read a bit about it because i just love this passage. this is about lincoln as a younger man was depressed and he did suffer from depression all the way through. when he was younger he was even suicidal and his friends kept his razors from him at one point. now he is returned to springfield, a former congressman and i will read here. the more time i spend with

lincoln the more i began to see that they archivists or he was uneasy, unpredictable and often unintended. yet, his thoughts and words with a careful result of his intense consciousness. and i should add, self-discipline. the silences that his law partner and others of his friends described as lincoln's melancholy, they were also a mask for his concentration, intellectual absorption and focus. he made his depression as well as every other young into instruments of self-discipline. in a wilderness of political despair for a destiny he could not foretell.even when his life seemed to be reduced from simple insignificance, he was scanning the horizons and quietly interpreting the signs. his ambition was that knew no

rest as herndon called it and he was a professional politician that early in his career, in the name of party fidelity, has a list of candidates from local offices -- though he later shed tears over it.he did not arise as recognizably lincoln until he aligned that fears ambition and the sharp political skills and democracy a unique experiment that might well be undone from within.>> that is beautiful. he had sort of an interesting imagination and discipline that he actually constructed a coherent argument. an intellectual argument. for a political correlation.

can you just, i think that is one important part of this book. >> this is also a. of party chaos. the party of lincoln is the whig party. he is a wig. he was in the state of illinois at the age of 27 and he invented the convention system in order to not get himself nominated for congress. in illinois. so he is a wig but his rival stephen a douglas, a senator from illinois. a rival for decades those everything up with the passage of the kansas nebraska act that eliminates repeals the missouri compromise by which slavery was prohibited in the north.

the extension of slavery becomes an open question. this is a question also about the political balance of power in the country. and the power of what people call the slave power. the parties blow off, the whig party just cracks apart. after 1852 there is never another whig presidential candidate. the party just disintegrates the need lincoln's feet. and they split into antislavery and proslavery and even ambiguous fashions.and the know nothings. and they have one line that only nativeborn protestants can hold public office in the united states. so - >> history repeats itself. [laughter] >> and they have a slogan. here it is of the know

nothings. americans only shall govern america. there is, lincoln writes a letter in 1855. i know i am not a know nothing but certain - the declaration of independence unit began by saying all men are created equal. then some people say all men are created equal access to labor and if the know nothings -- he said, if that is the case, i would emigrate to a country where they make no pretense of loving liberty. russia for instance. with a do not wear, where despotism is taken.and there is no base alloy of hypocrisy. so lincoln had a way with words. but, so lincoln had to

construct the coalition just to get back to the thought there. in this whirlwind with everything falling apart and he had to construct an argument, and the argument, there is a lot to say about lincoln and argument itself. because he is a lawyer, he trained himself in logic, he is very cognizant with appealing to people and persuading them and bringing them along and being accessible and using plain language. and lincoln also wants to construct an argument that appeals to different parts of these fragments just floating across the landscape. in order to bring them together and in antislavery coalition. he is waiting out the know nothings, he is waiting out the temperance movement. a big movement against liquor. and he has got to bring in

antislavery democrats who hate antislavery whigs. they have been running against each other forever.so he has his work cut out for him. >> a great line from this book is, it connects with that.for him the courtroom and the campaign were transferable arenas. can you explain that a little bit? >> well, in this period, lincoln - from 1849 until 8:00 p.m. to 1854 really, he is not running for public office. he says at one point it was almost indifferent to politics. which is not true. he was paying very close attention to the politics. but for lincoln, lincoln is traveling from county courthouse to county courthouse. sometimes on his horse, old bob. in central illinois and people

line up as clients at the courthouse before the court is in session and he agrees to take their case and argument before juries. so he has to persuade juries. that was lincoln's great strength. was to speak to juries of ordinary people in central illinois and to him, this was the law. but he was also a politician. so, he is thinking about this all the time and every time he is trying to win a case, he further develops his mind. and his ability to persuade. the other thing that he is doing while he is a lawyer is, and traveling around, he is developing this - he travels around in a kind of entourage of lawyers. they all are traveling around illinois. and they have a maestro, judge david davis of bloomington.

houma lincoln later names to the supreme court. he is the richest man in bloomington. he is a whig. they travel around together and do these cases. the judge is travel also. they all live in boarding houses. and this network of lawyers, these lawyers in central illinois become his campaign team. and, you know, people may have thought that this was - these were a bunch of provigil lawyers from central illinois but when it came to it in 1860, they outplayed everybody and won the republican presidential nomination at the convention in chicago for lincoln. these were very canny, shrewd and experienced political people. so lincoln is, even as he is just practicing the law, is developing his political network. so it is, the lines are

invisible between the two. >> you talk about or you write about this one really interesting case that i don't think much is known about. i thought it completely fascinating! the todd ayres case. to really help them focus. can you talk a little bit more about that? >> i began with this case and it was a revelation to me. i had read as much as i can about this. and i decided to begin the case with this.i think this is a seminal event in lincoln's thinking and in his life. he returns to springfield and his wife sent him to her hometown of lexington kentucky. her father john s todd who is

henry clay's business partner in political ally has died of cholera. and he has for about a decade been contesting for the todd family estate. which is a large fortune in kentucky. and the todd family wants the estate. except it is held by john s todd's political rival, an enemy, robert wycliffe. because he is married to john s todd's cousin. pauly. and woodcliff has the estate. so there, it is like - it has been going on for decades. but there are two subtext to it. one is woodcliff is the leader of the proslavery movement. and he succeeds in creating a new state constitutional

convention to make the kentucky constitution more proslavery. there had been cults of the clothing on the importation in kentucky by which the slave trade within the state was prohibited. it was the legacy of henry clay originally believed in gradual emancipation. and clay of course was lincoln's original - so, this is a powerful man in the state constitution is being rewritten.lincoln arrives as all of this is happening. and it happens, and he watches as - he loses the case. he was of the family fortune. he watches henry clay's legacy destroyed. john s todd's personal financial and political legacy destroyed. and he observes slavery in kentucky of close. he had seen it before as a boy, he had seen it in washington.

d.c., where slavery was legal. now he sees the rise of what people call the slave power. this is a rising power in the country. it is a very you know, powerful right wing if you will. and he is very embittered. there is a secret, there is another subtext. here is the secret, there was a todd family secret. and it is in memoirs and pamphlets. i have read these pamphlets. i found these pamphlets, turns out - just follow me. pauly todd who had died, was woodcliff's former wife. had a son and the son had died. and the son left a living heir

except he is not legally a person. and the reason is that he is the son of polly todd's son and the housemate who is a slave. and so this boy who is a slave, was emancipated and sent to liberia. and here is the kicker of the story, he becomes the president of liberia. [laughter] decades later. and that means that mary todd lincoln was related to two presidents. [laughter] two kentuckians. so this case is very important for lincoln and he is simmering. angry and private. and he starts and he observes

slavery as a social force, as an economic force, as a political force. he says it's the most ostentatious property in the world. he expends a young kentuckians have a slave trudging after them. in order to demonstrate how powerful they are. he is fuming. and this is an 1849. it's all private, it is all in private conversations with people. that are not recorded and not known until literally decades later. almost all the conversations come out in an oral history that his law partner, herndon, conducted after lincoln's death. long after lincoln's death with people who were still alive. so, people - you know, couldn't

really understand lincoln's evolution at the time because it was unknown. except to some of his closest friends and associates. >> do think that mary todd lincoln was aware of any of this? it was her family's money. >> i think she was aware of everything. she was described as a child as a volatile, fiery whig. very political, very devoted to the whig party. longer than lincoln. >> in your previous volume, he said that i think, without mary there might not be lincoln. so it got me thinking as i was reading. this book, she plays a somewhat less important role. a prominent role. where there be a lincoln without stephen a douglas?

>> first let me address mary and then douglas. mary todd and stephen a douglas are completely indispensable figures for the emergence, the development, the creation of abraham lincoln. there is no lincoln without these two people in illinois. and mary doesn't play quite the same role as she did earlier in the first volume but she plays it, a very important role here. and it is a little-known incident in which lincoln runs for the senate in 1855. not 1858 against douglas. he runs for the senate in 1855. she pushes him to run. he wasn't slated to run for the state legislature and she - he is elected again and, he has been a congressman, he has been in the legislature. and she thinks and the senate seat opens up.

she thinks this is completely beneath him. his ambition is a little engine that knew no rest according to herndon. but when it did, there was mary. and hers really knew no rest. and lincoln's friends describe a period of two days of yelling and shouting and lincoln hanging his head and at the end of which he drops is being elected to the state legislature and announces for the senate. because his wife says, you're a senator. and it is really important the way he loses. for the creation of the republican party because - brief story and then -- >> yes. >> the democrat who is douglas is in second place. lincoln has the most growth but

looks like he is just shy of in the majority. and so the democrats starts bribing legislators. i know that is unknown in illinois! highly unusual. there is no history to it. [laughter] the person at their place is a man named trumbull. he is a democrat but an antislavery democrat. so he has the fewest votes and lincoln realizes that the other democrat, douglas is ally is going to win if he allows him the time to bribe everybody. so he quickly throws all of his votes of antislavery democrat and elects trumbull as the senator from illinois. and remember, the elections are held within the legislature, obviously. there is no, that is who decides who is a senator. so, the result is that the antislavery democrats trust lincoln.

who had been their arrival as a whig. but now they just him and that becomes a basis for a year later in the creation of the republican party. of bringing all these people together. so lincoln has done something very important in sacrificing himself. in making something larger possible. and mary hates this, by the way. and her best friend was lyman trumbull's wife and she never spoke to her again. [laughter] she held it against her. douglas >> douglas. >> douglas, the little giant, the senator from illinois is the most powerful figure from illinois. he is on the national stage.fo he is young, he has already run for president in 1852. he is not even - he has run when he was 37 years old.

he is a meteor, lincoln is envious of him. he says he is a colossus and i walked underneath his legs. he has been his rival for decades. he has been attacking them for decades. in rival newspapers in springfield. you know, editorials flying back and forth. and lincoln feels completely insignificant. douglas is everything. and then douglas blows up the world. because his ambition is thwarted. he has run for president, did not get the nomination.he wants the nomination. in 1856. so he needs to do something enormous. he wants to build a transcontinental railroad. across the united states, get credit for it. he also wants to make money off of it. and he has bought land in the booth i want and in minnesota,

both northern and central routes. and i should add that he made a lot of money off of the illinois central. because he owned the lakefront in chicago. and sold it to the ic is the right of way lands. after he passed the central railroad acts. so, there is nothing new in politics. x and he needs the south. and he also needs to open up this territory. he is the chairman of the committee on territories and what is in the way is these territories are not organized. kansas and nebraska. sponsors the kansas nebraska act and repealed the missouri compromise which draws, he raises the line of slavery in the north and throws it all open.whoever settles that can decide if they are a free state or a slave state.

it is right next to missouri which is a slave state. and they start appearing in. and pretty soon you have bleeding kansas. as a result of that, the issue of the extension of slavery in the country, lincoln posit the nationalization of slavery. he says pretty soon we will have it in illinois. and that we will have it across the country.so, he develops - he has his cause and now he has to develop his argument. >> a few minutes ago you referred to the newspapers. there are 70 newspapers at the time. harold halter wrote a wonderful book about newspapers and lincoln. and lincoln wrote a platform at a meeting of the antislavery editors. but, can you just talk about the role of the newspapers at that time? and lincoln? >> well, lincoln had a close relationship with the media of

his day. and he played media politics. he was an avid reader of newspapers and since he was a boy. it was partly how he self educated himself. reading newspapers.and then the telegraph came into existence. it was the internet of the day. so it may daily newspapers - you can really follow the news every day. they were very current. and people kept up and in the northern united states, it was the most literate area and the entire world. and have the greatest number of newspapers anywhere in the world. and, all the newspapers were partisan one way or another. >> very! >> very partisan. they were idiosyncratic. that eccentric editors but they were partisan. one way or another. and lincoln in his little law office is sitting there and he

is more or less the coeditor of the illinois journal. in springfield. he has always done that and he anonymously writes hundreds of editorials. we do not know everything he is even written for this paper. and supposedly had the best library and central illinois. lincoln is reading the new york times.the new york tribune, the richmond inquirer, journals from london, so here he is, the circumference of his life appears very small. his house, his law office, the state capital. he travels around but actually he is living in a much larger world in his head and paying very close attention. so newspapers a very very important. the key meeting to found the republican party is called by newspaper editors in illinois.

>> that is phenomenal. >> they are all political. they are the only people, it is antislavery newspaper editors from around illinois. they call a meeting and and write lincoln as the only non-editor to attend. because they acknowledge that he should be the political leader. so, they have this meeting in decatur on washington's birthday, february 22, 1856. which almost splits up when one of the editors, an important man named george snyder, who edits one of the most important papers in chicago. it was called -- the german language newspaper. the biggest german language newspaper in the united states and he proposes a - against the know nothings.

and the anti-immigrant nativists in the meeting. and the whole thing begins to disintegrate. and snyder says let lincoln decide. lincoln says gentlemen, the answer is in the declaration of independence. and you cannot found a new party on any other principal. all men are created equally. so that settles it. they say, well lincoln says it is all right. and they found the illinois republican party without that, it would not have existed. so, newspaper editors and newspapers were very much intrinsic to the politics of the day. they were political players. >> just one of the personal things that lincoln 's much is

discussed recently about the death of willie, the wonderful saunders novel. but we sometimes forget that it was eddie who died during this period and you write about that. and you think really have that loss affected lincoln and - >> this is my thinking. in the early 1850s, lincoln had a beloved son named edward who died. and he was a child, very young. mary was inconsolable so lincoln was you know, lincoln had suffered from depression. but here is what i take away from it. mary was so inconsolable she would not eat. and lincoln said, you know he comforts her. he extends his sympathy. this is lincoln who is a depressive. overcoming his depressive out

of empathy for his wife. and i think it is a really important episode in his emotional life. >> i agree, it is very - we, i want to make sure there is time for questions so we can sort of get to the periphery of the room and microphones, i think there is one.that would let me ask a question and as you come up. so, you write lincoln's political education was long, but his moment of awakening was sudden. i am wondering if you can talk about that sudden awakening. you can either read from it or tell it, whichever you prefer. >> well, if you can show me what i have read i will try to remember it.

>> i think this is here. actually - >> at the end. >> it is the last part. >> it is the last part in it is about - i will find it. i think i know. this is - >> the very last page. >> this is a - >> a slightly funny story actually. >> this is a story recounted by people who were caught years after lincoln had died. a lot about lincoln comes out long after he is gone and some of the story - but this one is not because there were a lot of people present. they are corroborating accounts of contemporaries.

so in early 1855, traveling the county court circuits, staying overnight in a boardinghouse his discussion with a former judge and fellow lawyer, a conservative old whig went on deep into the night. now, another lawyer was present, recalled, judge dickey contended that slavery was an institution with the constitution recognized and which could not be disturbed. lincoln argued that ultimately, slavery must become extinct. after a while, sit dickey, we went upstairs to bed. there were two beds in our room. i remember lincoln set up in his nightshirt on the edge of the bed arguing the point with me. at last, we went to sleep. early in the morning, i woke up and there was lincoln, have sitting up in the bed. dickey, said lincoln, i tell

you this nation cannot exist half slave and half free. lincoln, go to sleep! [laughter] apparently a true story. >> a great story. sorry - question over here. >> yes. >> about current republican in the united states. with your political experience after events of this week, how you see the future of american president?[laughter] >> small question. [laughter] our current president said, did you know lincoln was a republican? [laughter] he has an interesting sense of history.

[laughter] so, i am hesitant to get into great detail. and i could. about the current occupant. on the one hand i feel like the main character the british version of house of cards is says, i don't know what you want to say what he says, you might say that and i couldn't possibly comment. lincoln was - and i will give a sense of how i feel, which is that lincoln was a shakespearean. his favorite play was macbeth. but i'm sure he saw king we are. and in that a character says, this is not the worst. so long as you can say this is the worst.

[laughter] [applause] >> what was lincoln's relationship to his brother in law? the one that turned out to be particularly nasty jailer of union prisoners? did they have a falling out early? and was lincoln's animus towards senator shields personal or political? >> those are two good questions. on the second one, mary todd's half-brother, was head of the prison. it was called libby prison in richmond. which us soldiers were held under wretched conditions. lincoln was very concerned with the treatment of us soldiers.

and he even met with some of the released prisoners and was very anxious to have them released. because many of them died because of the conditions and the todd family was split. north and south. including her - one of her sisters, whose - >> elizabeth edwards? >> no, emily. emily helms. whose husband had been a confederate soldier and came to visit her in the white house. even during the war which was a point of controversy. james shields, this is a really interesting point you make about james shields. james shields is someone who, as senator for my beliefs three states. illinois, minnesota and i forgot one, iowa? missouri, thank you. he was an ally of stephen a douglas and therefore, it

political antagonist to abraham lincoln when he was a whig. and lincoln engaged in writing under a pseudonym of a woman named rebecca who was supposedly an old country woman. satires about shields in the journal. that were insulting. as it turned out, mary todd participated in writing these insulting satires. and shields discovered that lincoln had done so and in order to transport lincoln feeling he was protecting mary todd with him he was reconciling, after having broken up with her. shields challenges him to a duel and they go to an island in the mississippi, john horton was a state senator and a

cousin mary todd's rides up and to keep moments as you are ridiculous and it is illegal and you have to stop this. and lincoln is completely humiliated. this is the famous broadsword where shields is relatively short and lincoln as we know is six feet four inches. he chooses as they weapons, broadsword because he has long arms. [laughter] and he practices by slashing prairie grass or whatever. and the duel is never fought and whenever anyone brings it up, lincoln is very embarrassed of the entire episode. but, it contributed to his marriage. it helped lead to his marriage to mary todd. doing was illegal and it was

considered - it was a point of southern honor in the north, it was considered something that belonged to a barbaric pass. so, and then - then he ran against shields in the five for this and appeared shields gets knocked up by another democrat and stars bribing the legislature. thank you. >> time for two quick questions. come on up. >> thank you. i have a question, i did during his time people very critical of lincoln. and recently i read a book, since encounters of lincoln which was very critical of him. i'm wondering how do you balance that when you write a book? is it hard to be critical of him because he is this follow the people i just adore him. is it hard to read critical things about him? >> i think lincoln is criticized from all sorts of points of view as he was in

life. i mean he was considered as president to be on the one hand, a tyrant conducting the war and on the other hand to be weak and vacillating. but by different sides. and i try and write is accurate a portrait as i understand it. i try and you know, this is the past. and it is history as i understand it and i tried to account for it by reading as much as i can. even finding a, new sources that shine light on his understanding of his thought and the issues of the day. is, having been a journalist my whole life, is that i can't interview anybody about this.

they are sadly unavailable. >> this question is sort of relate. theirs a tremendous amount of lincoln in lit tour and would -- literature and if you could let us like and what you don't like in all this massive lincoln literature out there. >> well, the lincoln literature is -- has been the subject of entire books itself, some there's the lincoln historyogy, and what i will say is that i find many of the contemporary historians of lincoln to be among the best. right now. those writing right now are really a fine historians, whether al -- among others.

doris goodwin's book is a good contribution, too, and many others. so i think that -- it's said there's nothing new to say about lincoln and i want to make another point, which is that every generation has something new to say about lincoln because we're all americans, and we're facing new circumstances, and we -- inevitably see the past through our own lens, and reinterpret and it we learn different lessons from lincoln, and that accounts for the evolution of the histories and the biographs about lincoln asiu well. >> well, think we're -- our time is up, but i just want to say thank you so much for this wonderful book, and you go right outside and buy it.

it's worth every dime. and i just want to say, he was here --he >> every lincoln penny. >> and it was worth -- here for the first volume and second a volume, and i'm really hope you'll be here for the third volume next year. >> thank you, elizabeth, and it's a pleasure to be with you and here in chicago.o. [applause] >> once again, thanks to everyone for coming and everyone for watching at home. on behalf of the litfest, books are being signed and sold right outside the auditorium.

[inaudible conversations] c-span's washingtonian, live every day, coming ups a morning, reuters health care reporter talks about the cost of health insurance. and robert wouldson of the woodson center andber naar anderson of the center for human resource ask you race religiouses in the u.s. be sure to watch c-span's washington journal "on saturday morning. join the discussion. >> every month booktv on c-span2 booktv features an in

department depth conversation with a nonfiction author about their writing year. join us on september 3rd when the guest is eric matexas. his books include amazing grace; october 1st, author in "new york times" columnist maureen dowd will discuss her books. november 5th, michael lewis will talk about his books. >> in his book, "why will son matters" tony smith writes about woodrow wilson's lasting influence on american foreign policy. he talked about the book at southern methodist universities' center for presidential history

in dallas. this is a an hour and a half. i found that in the age of trump it's important to choose your words very carfully so i consider them to be both wilson experts. to my mind, professor knock has done more than anything totle us what woodrow wilson had to deal with, and kell us the history and moments of woodrow wilson, to tell us what he confronted and how he confronted it and the development of his own thinking in the world he lived inch

professor tony smith is the other side of the coin. has done more than anyone to tell us why this matters, because frankly, everybody president since wilson -- it's not been a question whether or not they are wilsonian but how much. still continue to guide american foreign pop si today or might say coin to haunt american foreign policy. what woodrow wilson said and what professor something i win help us understand in a more forward-going way helps drive america today, which is why i'm particularly pleased to have the author of this book "why wilson matters" which is a darn good book, to come here and to explain it to us, and then you can go buyure own copy. so, without further adieu, professor smith, the floor is