in the end they were deported to the great other place in the sky. that's what i hope people take his role in this together. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> this is book tv and c-span2, we are primetime during the august congressional recess. were showing some of the stops that we have made other cities tour around the nation.

>> the name of the book is the ethical lobbyist reforming washington's industry. when you look at what others have written from an ethical point of view, a lot is about all forms of lobby are is unethical and not to be banned. that may be lobbyist should spend more time trying to represent marginalized disadvantaged population, that they should provide some pro bono advocacy work in the same way that lawyers provide pro bono advocacy work. i sort of felt that misses the point about what lobbying is supposed to be. that goes to the question about what is it supposed to be. if it's supposed to be justified at all, if it's going to be worthy of some kind of protection do we need to figure

out what grounds is a protected a representative government like we have. lobbying in our system is only really protected under the first amendment's petition clause. the first amendment the most famous of the bill of rights contains a lot of stuff, probably not too many people think about the very last part of the first amendment which is the right of the people to part freedom of speech and religionf impressed. petitioning is a very old rain that comes out of the english common law. it's the right of the people too insist that their government p respond to the problems. we have a complicated system of government.at the n state governments have become complicated. even local governments and large

bureaucracies it's hard to understand how anything gets done. in this day and age if a group of people want to position government they're going to be much better off if they're going to -- that would be lobbyist. in a matter of speaking that's what a lobbyist us. they advocate on behalf of the other people whether they are organized into an interest grouh or whether it's a corporation the third lobbying on behalf of. you're supposed to advocate on someone else's behalf. that is the only legal justification there is for lobbying. and the kind of lobbying is to be protected legally. it's really to be considered ethical.le as lobbying on behalf of otherf people and its lobbying exactly

to what his or her employer wants. so that's the basic motivation. okay why would the lobbyists do instead of anything else why would they ever not lobby for exactly what his or her employers want. there's actually some explanation for this. lobbyist is valuable on thele oe market.e has not so much for the people here she represents, but the relationships here she has built with powerful lawmakers. lobbyist cannot directly impact the lawmaking system. members of congress were senior people in the bureaucracy can d that. so for lobbyist to be influential they have to have access to these people. so, a lobbyist value is defined

really by the number and specially the quality of the people they enjoy access to. the lobbyist has access to say senator mitch mcconnell and then those lobbyist can then charge a great deal of money on lobby market so, to have a long lucrative lobbying career, lobbyist needs to have really well-developed relationships it with powerful people. a lobbyist would end up valuing those relationships -- up be easier for lobbyist to find another client or interest group to represent that it would be for the lobbyist to try to

rebuild a relationship with the speaker of the house if something has gone wrong withwia that. now, elected officials and senior officials of hypocrisy, because of the nature of all lawmaking system tents need to put together large coalitions and we have a majority rule system for making loss in theem united states.s. yet to bring people together with very different ideas of what the law should be. you have to move legislation through congress and the new need super majorities to overcome this filibuster. even to get a law properly implemented in the progress he tends to require broad consensus. that means, that legislators are often in positions where they have to be supportive that don't necessarily reflect what the other would want.

if they're going to look to the lobbyists that they have relationships with to provide that. so, lobbyists may also come under pressure to support positions on issues that tend to reflect the priorities ofthe legislators, the legislators they have relationships with, more so than supporting the positions of the people, interest groups or corporations that are employment.fold in we saw this actually helpful in an extreme version with the corruption chart trial of jack -- a few years ago.ith cong who supposed to be representing

several native american tribes in their dealings with congress and with the bureau of indian affairs. but instead to curry favor withh the bush administration and with powerful republican leaders on capitol hill, instead basically kept inventing issues that native american tribes needed to be lobbying on an right campaigns support for. so he was ripping off his ownwn clients to better build up and carry influence on capitol hill. that's an extreme example of what i'm talking about. lobbyist behaving unethically because of the pressures on himf to do so. so this is the basis of the argument i make in the ethical lobbyist. they're under friday pressures

cannot properly represent the positions or defend the positions that their employers ideally want. but, if lobbying is only protected by the first amendment under the petitioning clause, the mopping can only be considered legal and therefore isctly when the lobbyist loving for exactly what his or her employers want. the whole basis of the argument in the ecological lobbyist is that the pressures are pulling lobbyists away from what they ought to be doing. therefore, for going to haveave proper reform of the lobbying system in washington, d.c. then we need to settle laws andthat regulations that push us as lobbyist to be clearly beholden to the people who employ them and to be able to better resist pressure and to do away fromom those positions. maybe i'll draw some analogies

with the relationship between lobbying and their clients and it's not all that different between lawyers and their clients. a lawyer in a courtroom can ethically only advocate for clients the way client wants. every time the lawyer wants to change tactics they have to get the explicit approval of their client.si lobby should be held to the same standards. if they feel like they need to change positions within the employer interest group or corporation needs to sign off on that. they need to know what's going on all the time. so for gonna have some kind of reform, forget have a better system of laws and regulations that we basically need a system that creates disclosure of what lobbyists are lobbying for all of the time.

a system that's easily accessed by the people employment that's not at all the floppy regulation system we have now. right now the system we have is all about identifying who is lobbying, who their lobbying for, how much they getting paid to lobby but it says nothing about what their lobbying for. so i think those are some of the biggest challenges moving forward with dealing with the lobbying industry. lobbyist themselves under more and more pressure as people come into the lobbying profession there's can be more competition among lobbyists to buildssion relationships with the setr finite number of lawmakers that will perhaps be more pressure to be more beholden to legislators so that's a big, big ethicalge challenge going forward. >> now look back at some of the stops along the tour continues