everything. humanities or science. you have to keep your mind active, and especially like somebody like myself, where i have to go from appropriations to name the issues, and then when you get on the airplane, fly from laredo to houston, from houston to washington you spend a lot of time on the plane so this where is you use the apps to make sure you keep your mind active but at the same time you're constantly learning. >> booktv wants to know what you're reading. send us your super reading list via twitter, or instagram, or post it to our facebook page, facebook.com/booktv. book tv on c-span2. television for serious readers. >> congressman cuellar mentioned

john meacham's american lion he won at the pulitzer price in 2009 for that book. we want to show you this author presentation now. >> i am delighted to be here. i've had on eclectic couple of days, mirroring the history of the last 40 years in the american presidency. last thursday night, i was standing at the nixon library, and now i'm here. why not the best? ultimately. it was almost impossible at the nixon library has a replica of the east room and all i could do was not say, my mother was a saint. it was like dork disneyland. it was fabulous. i was sent to summer camp once during the 1980 convention when

reagan and ford had their flirt. >> never been so angry at my parents. never recovered, the relationship. went to -- i am from chattanooga. for those who not know swaney, it's a combination of brideshead and deliverance. like to set the scene so you know from whence i came. i began this book as just heard, five years ago. partly because it was the period in which david mccullough's wonderful john adams was doing so well, walter isaacson's franklin -- benjamin franklin, and we should cover someone who reps the best of us and the worst course and andrew jackson does that. thieves as much by his vices as his virtues so this -- you can't

have eight in on that -- warts and all jackson because they're mostly warts but they are on a man who ultimately capped the -- kept the possibility of progress alive by preserving the union and want to talk about that and particularly interested in your questions. in 1861, in wintry springfield, the president-elect of the united states, tall, skinny guy from illinois, walked through streets of mud and ties this brother-in-law's store at yates and smith, think what the street, the cross-streets. to write his inaugural address. the union was disintegrate egg. the union was at hand, and lincoln called for four documents. called for a copy of the constitution, called for a copy of henry clay's 1850s peach on the compromise, and the called for webster's second replay

tohand and call for andrew jackson's proclamation to the people of south carolina. now, lincoln was not to put it mild by, jackson man. although jackson had given him a job once. he became the postmaster of knew salem, im, in may of 1833. barks when when lincoln was a guy who might some day get back into politics. but he new that jackson at a molt of ultimate crisis found a way to express the poetry of the american union and wanted to have that document, that was looking for a point of reference in the past as he embarked 0en a formidable crisis but not unprecedented one. theodore roosevelt admired andrew jackson's instinct for the jugular. he said that no man other than lincoln or washington had left a deeper mark upon in the american culture.

fdr was boredline obsessed with jackson, wasn't quiet brokeback mountain but a very odd sort of thing. he -- i can say because of warm springs and all that. in fact in 1937, fdr's inaugural stan was build in the form of the hermitage on pennsylvania after knew. in 194 , 1 in the midst of horrible frustrations about isolationism, fdr gave a radio address in which he talk about how we had to recover the rugged and courageous spirit of andrew jackson. while the threats in jackson's day came from within, ours, fdr say, come from without, and as the enemy powers come ever closer, we have to recover the spirit of jackson to win through in our own time. harry truman was rivaled fdr in his obsession with president jackson. he had built a courthouse in --

back in missouri had statue of jackson in front of it. truman was so interested in getting the exact details right that he drove over to the hermitage to measure jackson's clothes, so it would be exactly correct. this put a bronze of jackson in the oval office and most important i think, he once said that andrew jackson was the kind of president who looked after the little fella who had no pull and that's what a president is supposed to do. so, who was this president who looked after the little fella who had no pull? he was the first truly self-made man to become president. the first six presidents all came from the upper echelon, up matily, of american life. this is a man who, by force of will, came from the hills of south carolina to the pinnacle of power in the young republic. a remarkable feat. at that opinion unprecedented in american life.

one of the boys he grew up with in south carolina-year-old later said when we would wrestle with andy, we would throw him once and twice and three times and four times, but he never stay throwed. but andrew jackson never stayed throws. never new his father. an interesting presidential paradigm. presidents tend to either come from families with very strong, dominant father figures or none at all. mccain and obama, you see that. you have the bushes, adams, kennedys in terms of having a father quite present. jackson, clinton, ford, who did not know their father. what i think that did in the psychology of the young andrew jackson, is it gave him the ambition and the noble sense of ambition, to rise to power and come to control as much of the circumstances around him as he possibly could. he was accustomed to being

unsettled in his life. he did not have a strong home of his own once his mother died when he was 14. his relatives, bluntly, in south carolina, didn't seem to pay much attention to him. now, an evening with an drew jackson was never untaken lightly, when he was older and even when he was younger. he was what we would call now a troubled teen so not particularly popular with kith and kin in south carolina. so, he learned to depend on himself. i interviewed senator obama in august about these issues, about himself and his own experience, not having a father, and he said, obama said, basically i had to learn how to raise myself. that was an experience that jackson and he shared. a kind of necessary self-reliance because there was

no one else to rely on. the reason there was no one else to rely on, his father died before he was born but was the american revolution. he lost his mother, he lost his brothers, he believed that his family's blood had consecrated the american union. he himself was a prison over war. he was hit over the head by a british saber, leaving gash in his head as long and deep as a man's finger through the rest of his life. he -- used to be a joke about the -- the british officer who hit jackson really -- was that good idea after new orleans? one thinks not ultimately. he was -- i'd spent a lot of time trying to figure out how did he get his intellectual furniture? the man who had virtually no formal education, almost none. maybe a year 0 so.

self-taught lawyer, as many people were on the frontier if you look back, where did he spend his time? the spent the most time in this childhood, from babyhood in at the presbyterian meeting house there at home, and i don't know how many presbyterians are here. i am an episcopalian. there are six of us left. we used to just fight over gin or vodka. it's become more complicated in recent years but we do things relatively quickly. we can get and out fast. my sense of presbyterians is that it was particularly in 18th century, service was not what i would dahl -- want want to skip breakfast, and just wait for lunch. so, hours and hours and hours on all those endless sundays, he heard the catechism, he had an interesting trick the rest of

his life, always used rhetorical questions back and forth. in cat cash catechism form. the bible was hugely important to him. when he was under stress for the rest of his life, he always fell back on images from scripture, when henry clay threw in his lot with john quincy adams, becoming the -- and made adams president, even though jackson had won the plurality of votes in 1824, another thing that they ultimately regret -- instantly jackson said clay is the judas of the west and his end will be the same. not exactly a audacity of hope kind of moment. talk about all that in a second. though he saw the world in this,

i think, wonderfully epic way that largely grew out of the bible, another favorite book was the scottish chiefs, which when you think about braveheart, make goods sense, a heroic story of william wallace. another book he read and gave to other young men in his family, the letters of lord chesterfield. remember? this was an age when americans were trying to make themselves into gentlemen. they didn't have much to go on. chesterfield had written this kind of manners guide, which taught you how to be in the world how to handle yourself, most importantly for our purposes in term's political development in -- only one president who has given his name to an age. not an age of theodore roosevelt, not even on age of lincoln but there is an age of jackson. was to always control what you

feel, and to control how you project what you feel. whatever you may actually -- whatever may be going on inside, always present a century -- serene face to the world. a critical element in jackson's political rise. while he could be a passionate, come pettiest, tell temperment al man. he was the magazinesser of his feelings. you do not be president of the united states with re record he had if your were running around tempermentally and he took advantage of the fact people thought that was his weakness and turned it into a strength. the best -- one of the best stories about this is during the bank war, delegation came to him to try to plead the case, saying that he, jackson, was wrong, and jackson ranted and raved and

spewed and -- i have this vision of him overturning furniture but the delegation scurried out. the door had barely shot but jackson turn to an aide and said, didn't manage them well? he knew exactly what he was doing. it's a little like -- y'all remember the "saturday night live" skid where reagan is amiably dopey and then the school child leaves and he's like, all right, let's get to work, a little like that. he rose because he believed in the country, and he believed that its fate would be in the best of hands and he thought his were the best of hands. that is not an uncommon political view. as you may imagine. except of course for the man in whose library we're in. always tricky that these things.

thefdr -- a police cal science since franklin's fill as tv of the presidency is him in. a lo lot like that. in a good way, which talk about in one second. he became a leader of men through physical force. this is something we don't think about anymore and in 2008, but there are very few men or women who bear the marks of physical bravery anymore in our public life. actually several of them have connections here. there's max clearland, there's john lewis, they're bob dole, there's bob kerry, jackson did -- john mccain, jackson did, too. he bore the scars of war. during the war of 1812 he received his old hickory name because he refused to leave a single man behind on a march back to tennessee.

the doctor -- wonderfully named dr., samuel hog, said what are we going to do with the sncc said we'll put them on the wagon and none shall be left behind and he willed himself through the wilderness. his political rise had minute to do with the sense that the republic in classic terms -- the republic was a brilliant beginning but that democracy had a troll play. we forget -- a role to play. the story of philadelphia in 178 and the bill of rights in 179 its not so much about academy ross republicanism. the people had a role to play in the founder's vision but a fairly limited one. in jackson's view, the republican structure had created too many corrupting influences to the point where the country was itself in a kind of moral

crisis because the channel between the president and the people had become clogged like an artery. the bank on the united states was one. clergy were other. he loved religious people and was religious himself. did not like mettling -- meddling ministers there's nothing new under the sun. he believed that in classic republican thought the virtue of people is what formed the virtue of the country and he wanted to clear out those intermediary institutions and establish a more direct channel to himself as president and the people, believing that would create a more justice and stronger society. as we talk about briefly, don't know what it is about people, democratic nominees from my native state, manage to win and then lose, it happened in 1824, happened in 2000.

we're working on it as a state. bill frist is worried all the time about this. think that if it -- he believed -- jackson believed in the country was slipping into corruption in 1824. once the election was decided by the house of representatives and not by the people, he became obsessed with it. he began running for president shortly after the evening of the of 9th of february in 1825. a wonderful thing of jackson in the white house, monroe's white house, adams and clay have cut their deal -- well, that's little strong -- adam has become president and clay is on his dui becoming secretary of state. i'm sure there was no connection. the vetting process by the way for secretary of state then was much easier.

mrs. clay did not have to talk about her trips to dubai as far as we know. this is going to be great. a story that will not end. why did we have to have the election? campaign was just great. so jackson goes to the white house, he has a woman on each arm, and he approaches john quincy adams. the son of a president. one of most brilliant men in the country. had been -- europe an diplomat from the time he was eight forwardment every advantage. jackson had no advantage. adams couldn't speak to him. he just stood stock still. here's andrew jackson, out of nowhere, who simply says, as you can see, mr. adams, i've given my arms to the fair but i hope you are well, sir. and moves on.

brilliantly at this point, he has become the noble loser, and adams has become some of a sour winner. that dynamic wouldn't change until 1828 when jackson won a decisive victory, and endured in a remarkable personal tragedy in those intervening months. he had married in 1799 the love otherwise his life. rachel there what a slight complicating factor. she was robrds and not mrs. donaldson. details, details. there was some confusion as happened in those years -- not entirely uncommon -- about when the divorce was final. so jackson marries rachel, and what was okay in 1799 or so, was not so great 30 years later. morals had changed. mappers changedded.

and most importantly, jackson now had ferocious political enemies who would use anything they could to fight him. and they used his wife. she was call the bigamies and a whore, said he was unfit to up a -- occupy such a place as the wife of the president of the these cumulative stress of the attack -- she knew about them -- caught up with her, jackson believed, and the collapsed on 17th of december in 1828 and died in december. so midway through the transition. it was a great tragedy and crisis of jackson's life. they buried her on christmas eve, 1828. and afterward he went back in to the hermitage and said, if i could have my way, i would stay here and never leave the woman whom we have just left in the

garden but i am now president-elect of the united states and i will good and do my duty. he blamed henry clay for it. he came ultimately to blame john c. calhoun for a lot of this, as you all may know he later said his only two regrets in public life were he did not hang calhoun and shoot clay. again, i just hate this partisanship in washington now, don't you? just terrible. people are so mean on cable. just nothing like it. i was actually -- we're in georgia so i can tell the story. was actually sitting on the set when your former governor and senator, zell miller, challenged chris matthews to a duel and i was saying, hand to god, i swear. was signature between andrea

mitchell and joe scarborough, and we all went -- because chris will do it. he would go -- have been happy to go out there particularly during sweeps week. like to think i've been part of the two great dueling stories in modern political history. god, that was a night. he later expressed those regrets, but he dedicated himself to his job in a way that -- to the presidency in a way that perhaps if rachel had been alive he may not have been able to do that as much as he did. clearly saw this as a drama of redemption. he was going to show his enemies, he was going to do everything he could to save the country. he believed he had to rescue the country from what dan all webster once said was some threadful danger, and really

believed this. he. >> saw him as the champion of the common man. as long as the common man was white and a man. this is an important point we'll talk about more in a second. but one of the things that makes him so relevant for us is his vision of the relationship between the government, the private sector, the financial sector, and the people. in 1832, when he was vetoing the bank of the united states, after martin van buren walked in one night and jackson is lying there two bullets in him, can't keep anything down. drinks gin because of his health that's what tell my doctor. and van buren is, terrified, and jackson rise up and says, the

bank, mr. van buren is trying to kill me but i will kill it, and he did. he did it with a veto message that i'd like to read just a little bit of because you could hear this literally this afternoon. here's what jackson said. it is to be regretted the rich and powerful too often bend the axe of government the irselfish purposes. distincts in society will always exist under every justice government. equality of talent of education or of wealth cannot be produced by human institutions. the full enjoyment of gifts of heaven and the fruits of superior industry, economy and very tour, every man is equally entitled to protection by law but when he laws undertake to add to alland just advantages, art fishing drinks, the grant title, gratuities and expressive rivers to make the rich richer and the potent more powerful, the humble members of society, the farmers, mechanics and laborers who have neither the

time nor means of securing like favors to themselves, have a right to complain of the injustice of their government. there nor necessary evils in government. its evils exist on in its abuses. if it would confine itself to equal protection and as the heaven does the rains, shower its favors alike on the high and he low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing. but it was not an unqualified blessing, and jackson believed he was the man and he held the office that had to protect the people from these intermedian forces. now, jackson's vision of the presidency is something we take for granted now. it's like the air we breath, like the wall paper. he asserted that he was the direct representative of the american people. not exactly a radical proposition now.

it was a radical proposition then. john c. calhoun said what a dark and sash an biggs -- am abuse and calhoun's ambitions were unsated. he believed that he could play the role of interpreter and enactor of the people's will. it was not a despotism, not tyranny. he fully believed in the system of checks and balances. he fully believed that as he pit the virtue and intelligence and the wisdom of them people would ultimately win out, but he did believe that the people had not been given a substantial enough role in the original system and so to torture a metaphor -- forgive me -- to strict that foundered had written had put the people in the audience, and they were there, they were vital to the production. jackson took them out of the audience, put them at center stage.

he was the director, the producer, and sometimes the star, of the show, but he wanted the will of the people to have unfettered impact on the country. again, not that the majority was always right. that was not part of it. but that all in all we would be better off as a country and as a democracy if the people's voice was heard more loudly than those of institutions that might have more specific interests. andrew jackson was an unprepen repentant slave holder, thwarted the source of an anythings 1835 and afterwards. her was the architect of the trail of tears. we are standing in a state that was party to the most significant supreme court cases involving the removal of the american indians. i grew up on land that was once cherokee.

i am always careful about -- i went through this when i was writing about franklin roosevelt and win store churchill about their reaction to the holocaust. it is tempting and wrong to be self-righteous and retrospect. arthur schlesinger used to siful rye chowsness is easy and cheap. the test is how loud were the voices in real-time that the men and women who are architects or implicit -- complicit in a given course of action, was there a counter-case being made? and the answer is, yes. a man named jeremiah everts what the central player. the william lloyd garrison of indian removal. and wrote essay called the william penn essay that made a moral case against removal. the south was underwhelmed by

that case, as happened a little bit later in abolition, the southerners were able to say, well, it's quite easy for people from new england who have already driven off the our kuo ands to lecture us. stand as -- one of the two darkest champer ins in american history. our twin tragedies, treatment of african-americans and the treatment of native americans. no getting around it. there's no sugar coating it, no to be shire. there's no excusing it. there's some explaining, jackson believed he was securing the country. he believed that indians were potential allies for foreign forces, the spanish or british, who possibly threatened the sanctity of the union. but there was -- he genuinely believed he was, as he referred to himself, the great father, he was doing something to save them

ultimately. ultimately he was wrong but the country was wrong with him. and to do dismiss him entirely because of this tragedy would be a serious mistake because greeted heres have to teach by their voices as well as their virtue, and before we get to self-righteous we should take stock of the sins of our own time and wonder, what will people say of us in later generations that -- what did we do and not do? things done and left undone that will also earn the condemnation of the future. what jackson did is he kept the union together. it was not a sure thing.

south carolina -- always south carolina -- south carolinians start wars that tennesseans have to fight. i'm in charleston tomorrow. i'm testing that out today. [laughter] >> if jay press made kevlar, would wear it. it was close run thing, as wellington said, of waterloo. john c. calhoun wanted to nullify the federal tariff. they believed that federal taxation was the thin edge of the wedge. he used a more modern formulation that would allow abolition, and jackson said, expect soon a civil war of extermination to commence. he threatened to lead troops in himself to south carolina. dispatched cutters and dispatched winfield scott, and he issued that proclamation that lincoln summoned, called for in

1861. let me read one by. addressing the people of south carolina. al term natalie stern and soft. he would always act at two levels. the absolute projection of implacablity. meanwhile trying to cut a deal in the back. some people might call that hypocrisy, call that statecraft. that's what great politicians do. that's what ronald reagan did with the soviet union, reagan went from 1981, two or three days after is inauguration, referring to the soviet union as focus of evil in the modern world to kissing babies with gorbachev in red square in 1988. you negotiate. you use fear -- he used a kind of bullying kind of threat to sorten the target. it's negotiation. this is what jackson said to south carolina: contemplate the condition of the country hoff

you still form an important part. consider its government, uniting in one bond of common interest and general protection so many different states, giving to all their inhabitants the proud tight of american citizen, protecting their commerce, securing literature and arizona fashion sill tating their intercommunication, defending their frontiers, and making their name respected in the remotest parts of the earth. consider the extent of the territory, its increasing and happy population, its advance in arts which render life agreeable, and the sciences which elevate the mind. the education spreading the likes likes of religion, morality and general information into a cottage in this wide extent of our territories and states. behold it as an asylum where the wretched and oppressed find a refuge and a support. look on this picture of happiness and honor and say, we, too, are citizens of america.

he won that battle by acting on two different levels, by threatening on one level and working to cut a deal, a legislative deal, on the other. and he did it because he believed that the union was sacred. again, his family's blood dish use religious imagery consciously here. hi family blood cons traited the union. -- consecrated the union. once called america one great family. his idea was we could be at the table together, throwing turkey at each other or wild turkey bottles or whatever in to family squabble, family fight, but you had to be together. because the family could solve it ultimately. and without union, nothing else was possible. he centralized that power, that idea. he later said the divine right of kings and prerogative authority of rules have fallen before the intelligence of the age, standing armies and

military chieftans can no longer uphold tyranny to in the resistance of public opinion. the mass of the people have nor fear from the wealth request and professional classes, paging secretary paulson -- from an aristocracy which through the influence of richness and talent insidiously employed, sometimes proceeds in preventing political institutions from securing the freedom of the citizens. the president has -- jackson speaking in the periods person, always dane are you -- the president has fit little husband do ity to exert the power which will its country men have clothed him in attempting to purge the government of all sinister influences which have been incorporated with this administration. he was a complicated man. he was, i called him a lion because if he was on your side and you were in his pride, you were as safe as you could be. if he was after you, you could

not run contracts the plain or through the jungle fast enough. he was both protector and predator. i submit that the history of the country, the history of this region, the history of this state to the north and of this state, and of our neighbors, is exactly that. we have been about freedom, we have been about slavery. we have been willing to live with intolerable inequality, in one generation, only to see it overturned with moral clarity and insight the next. that is the story over -- of the country. not a neatly unfolding saga. it's messy, it's difficult, it's still unfolding. it toe deny the complications of history is really to render history irrelevant. you end up in a kind of world that is not particularly useful or illuminating. leave you with this.

when jackson died, george bancroft, the writer, scholar, statesman, was talking about the crisis with south carolina. jackson died in june 9, 1845. here's what bancroft said eulogize jackson. the moral of the great events of the south carolina crisis in those days is this. that the people can discern right and will make their way to a knowledge of right that the whole human mind and, therefore, with it the mind of the nation, has a continuous, everimproving existence, that the appeal from the unjust legislation of today must be made quietly, ernestly, perseveringly, that the more enlightened collective reason of tomorrow. must be made quietly perseveringly the more enlightingment collection of tomorrow that submission do is to popular will and the confidence that at the people,

when na error, will amend their doings in a popular government injustice is kneer to the established by force or resist bid force in a word, that the union which is constituted by consent must be preserved by love. i think that is love that sustains us still. thank you all very much. [applause] . >> thank you for the next 15 minute or so we'll take questions. , questions, not comments. i'm sure prime marley about the book but -- primarily about the book but also about today's political worldment. up for that, too? >> there's no distinction. >> the folks from book tv are here tonight so i'll point you out, raise your hand if you have a question. i'll point to you and wait until the young lady in the it should

sweater with the boom mic gets to you. the first hand is all the way over here. >> you do that may i saying? >> yes. >> we have jacksonians but jacksons in the audience. scott ward, a descendent of andrew jackson, is here. his incredibly helpful to me in unearthing papers and other relics of the great man. so, thank you. [applause] we hope he doesn't share his ancestor's love of dueling. >> i'll ask a favorable question just in case. now, we're about to inaugurate a new president, they're expecting a million people at the inauguration. one of the great legends of the jackson's administration is his inauguration day, and i just

wondered of you can elaborate on that and both maybe speak to what the truth is about it and also what -- how that legend has evolved over time and how it -- what it might represent in his part of the legend. >> a great question. the only thing people know about andrew jackson by and large is that people from tennessee trashed the white house. it's been very painful for many years to me. it is a more complicated story, and so thank you for asking. people always talk about the party afterwards. it's a little bit like -- i don't want to project any of my own personal issues of y'all but have you all maybe ever been to a wedding that was very serious and moving and lovely, and then maybe the reception was -- got a little out of control? just perhaps a little bit? this is what happened. the wedding was the actual

inauguration on capitol hill, which i spent a lot of time describing because i was struck by it. francis scott key, the author over the star spangled banner was there with a woman named margaret bay' at thed smith theel the town career of the establishmentment they were incredibly struck as the crowd was at the capitol as jackson took the oath from john marshall, as he kissed the bible, as he bowed to the people, as he delivered a nonparticularly interesting inaugural address, again, not uncommon in american history, the language they used was that it was a sublime spectacle. there was a kind of magistery of the people. so that was the wedding. then they went down pennsylvania after knew.

jackson rode a white horse, problemly, and not and basically people went a little overboard. and carpets're ruined. glasses were smash. not exactly versailles nor animal house. really wasn't. according to the records. but it was knopf that his aides, andre donaldson and others, had to had a protective circling around jackson and hustle him out. in a sign that the white house staff has been pretty good, the way they got the folks out of the first floor there through the windows, was by they can spiked punch and putting it on the lawn. so, that -- again, i went to swaney. we dade lot of that. it was used -- at the time it was used as an, oh, my god, king mob has come.

in fact, joseph story, a supreme court justice, federalist, said, the majesty of the people was replaced by the reign of king mob there at the white house. and it scared people. like daniel webster and clay and john quincy adams. understandably to some extent. this was -- jackson was someone they couldn't control. everybody else had been sort of from the same club. that's not say jackson was -- i think he was far more sophisticated figure than people give him credit for but it was in his political interest for people to believe he was actually somewhat rough around the edges. no one could be more elegant when he wanted to be. when louise livingston had a ball around the battle of new orleans, there was all this terror that andrew jackson was coming and all the ladies were very worried.

he came through, swept through, and one of the ladies who had been terrified came up to her and said that's your back woodsman and he is a prince. her could play either role and i think that unfortunately the white house story has come down to as the madness of democracy and the common man running amok. but you can't be for -- can't be against the common man running amok and then be for democracy. sort of comes together. like one man's pork is another man's steak. >> i would good to you, sir. >> if you're going to charleston you have to go by the college of charleston and say hello to miss mother's grave. >> there's some controversy -- there's end less controversy. >> i'm from south carolina, just go say hello. >> okay. we appreciate the whole sumpter

thing. >> you got it. that worked oat well. >> if you gotten a e-mail that said the man killed ten people personally with his three indian warriors, his revolutionary war bats would it surprise you? >> whoa would surprise you? >> hi did tell ten men himself. >> well, i don't know. there were certainly ten people he wanted to kill but the time was all over. he was a tough customer. he was -- remember, this is not -- it's not an hbo miniseries. not a costume drama. he was in tennessee, in the late 18th century. we weren't even the south. we were the southwest. there's a wonderful story of his leading settlers through -- from north carolina and already -- classic jackson story, john over ton was with him, a great friend.

and indians were after them. they were trying to get across a river so they slashed together a raft quickly, and jackson says, don't worry,'ll take care of it. jumps on the raft and starts going toward a waterfall, overton saved him and jackson says, don't worry, follow me and i'll save you again. just wonderful. but it's why people loved him. always willing to mount up and ride with him again. they knew he would not fail them. if-against if he was on your side, you were in good shape. his diehls, -- his duels, his brawls -- tell this issue think this answer it. he was capable of great violence but also inspired great love and loyalty. sometimes at the same time. he was in a gunfight, i think the only president to sort of have a begun -- a gunsmoke kind

of moment. he was jess where benton and thomas hart benton, thomas hart benton has slipped out of common currency but became a senator from missouri and jackson's greater legislative ally. but at the beginning of their lives they were in a brawl in a gunfight in which jackson was shot. they weren't on the same tied. they were fighting each other. jackson bled through two mattresses and about to cut off his arm and he ordered the doctor, religion keep the arm. and -- i'll keep the arm, and even the doctor stood down. he was quick to violence as a young man but not common. we have to judge him by the standards of him time. >> the early 1800s was a peered of revivalism, very strong united states. did that have any effect on the

democratization of the people? >> terrific question and absolutely. there's a wonderful book, nathan hatch, or maybe john butler. they both have written great books about this. on exactly this. how the second great awakening fed democratic thought and the energy that really reached a higher wave, a higher point by the 1820s. also the debate about to whoa extent did religion feed the revolution but clearly you're living in an era then when a fundamental assumption about the way the world worked was changing. which was summed up by what jefferson's all men are created equal, and endowed by

credited -- it was a central assumption in the western world the rivals man did not come from the hand of a king or the women's whims of a mob but from god. they were sacred. if they came from god, nobody could take they were away. a largely american principle. the spread of evangelism, prod broadly put, absolutely fed this idea of individual liberty and the capacity of people to -- the right of people to shape their own destinies. very quickly on jackson and religion. it's very interesting. he resisted calls beginning in 1827 for the formation of a christian party in politics.

a man named ezra styles ely who was part of one of the great sex scenes all-time. that's a whole nuther evening. there was a lot of lust and a lot of hearts. going to wait. see itself worked. hard to do 40-year-old political humor. i'm going to pay for that. resisted the formation. and wrote an interesting letter about it. eli had preached a sermon called the duty of christian freemen to elect christian rulers. very subtle. and jackson wrote back saying, no, that liberty of conscious is more important, among the blessings secured unto us by our

constitution. he refused to join the presbyterian church while he was still in public life because he believed he would be accused of doing it for political reasons. he went to church a lot. rachel went to church more when she was alive. and he refused to sign proclamations calling for national days of prayer and fasting. it was a terrible cholera epidemic in 183 and henry clay, running against him for president, was anti-kole -- anti-kole . a a save position -- a safe position, seems to me. jackson had a veto drafted but the draft of the veto still exists. he was an interesting separation u.s. on -- separationist on these things. like to say it's entirely principled bus of -- had to do

with the fact he didn't like what he would call a combination of clerics. didn't like the idea that there were ministers who were standing between him and the congregations, and so that was a rival power center. >> the gentleman right there. >> welcome to atlanta. thank you for being here. i'm yourous to bring -- curious. we have seen an historic election. what is the next direction we're moving in and what has cause his total political landscape, all the norms, and second, you spend some time with obama, the president-elect. what presidents does he really feel a connection with and that he is kind of drawing strength to move forward? >> let me start -- work backwards. lincoln is obama's favorite.

we had a separate conversation about this in june, i think. actually interesting, talking to both mccain and obama about presidents they looked to, and i also asked what failed presidents have you learned from. obama said i haven't spent lot of time think about failed presidents. mccain instantly said herbert hoover. make of that what you will. there you are. he has a very strong connection -- the cover of "news week" is' obama and linton. he has a sense, i think, with lincoln, that history is a mystery and the idea that anything is magical in the sense of if we say a few words or do one thing, everything will be perfect, that is something that

lincoln resisted jackson resisted. i think what -- fdr. i think what people -- what many great presidents have in common is an appreciation of the tragedy of history. we're never going work all this out. if you're religious, perhaps one day god will wipe all tears from their eyes, but if you're a completely secular issue guess just not. there'll be something. what lincoln understood, what jackson understood and i think what obama understands and certainly senator mccain understands, is that life is not -- life and politics are not going to ever be perfect. ...

>> we have underestimated obama over and over again. he's been there with the blackberry that they are getting ready to take away from him. just enjoying it.

what is a placebo blackberry by the way? do we need to give him one? [laughter] so like lincoln, he knows that and like fdr also. politics is provisional. you do everything you can to find a solution to a problem that will fall apart again. but you do not give up. tragedy is different than that. the first part of your question, what caught the spirit of -- is a fascinating question. one thing is with due respect to the amazing obama campaign, the 30-year-old, 28-year-old republican coalition is fatally flawed now.and that is about fdr lasted 36 years. fdr got a little bit more than reagan did that only about six years. the republican party of reagan,

the first president bush, and the second president bush was a alliance of conservatives and foreign policy. religious conservatives are unhappy because the central claims of the movement dear school prayer and pro-life amendment to the constitution. had never come remotely close to that. fiscal conservatism - and, the conduct.i'll be clear about this. i feel strongly about this on a personal level. the conduct of the iraq war had given foreign policy a bad name. i think people of goodwill can disagree about the intelligence and the road to war. but there's really very little debate it seems to me once you got there that first summer of

03. that what we were doing was not working. and so i think that kicking them in missions about late ot were early 03 -- part of this, john mccain -- after 15 september jesus running in judea on a republican ticket could not have won.so it was the most challenging political environment for a republican ever. the fact they got 46 percent was amazing to me. and i admire him like mccain but admire him in a clinical way. remember the misery index that he created for you at interest rates and inflation together? i wanted to create anyone to see if you could edit the number of people the percentage of people who thought the people was on the wrong track with the people who disapprove

of the president's job performance. by the end of the election fee will be something like hundred and 82 percent. so i don't think any republican could have won. but that is the negative explanation. barack obama, whatever your politics has diffuse the political process with a sense of possibility and a sense of hope that i do not think anyone has done since president reagan. for governor reagan i should say. and again, wherever you stand. the significance of the selection historically and in real time, i do not think we overestimated. on a personal note, it is fascinating to me. i have a six-year-old, a four-year-old in a month old. and that is the reason i'm here. [laughter] my wife enjoys the independent pioneer woman. [laughter]

this is c-span. they will not know a country in which it was not possible for an african-american to be president of the united states. my four-year-old little girl who talks like carol channing smoked -- i love those little girls. she is obsessed with the obama children.she was there of -- she wanted to know what their rooms would be like. and given our complicated tragic difficult bloody racial history, a good bit of which unfolded not far from where we stand. led by a man who presided not far from where we stand. it is a remarkable moment. nothing demographics are changing.

and i think that something is afoot that we cannot quite put our finger on. we can overstate. we can overstate the political -- i do not think we can overstate the significance of the moment. [inaudible] i am going on too long. sorry. >> jackson's negatives have been compared to bush's negatives. and no one has grabbed more power in the presidency than bush and his team. and here you have the certainty and question certain that history will redeem him for his middle east policy eventually democracy ever comes to the middle east. it will be because of him. so what are the dissimilarities? >> jackson was more successful.

again -- [laughter] i think that, one's view of presidential power has everything to do with what one thinks of how that presidential power was used. so, when theodore roosevelt was conservative for us and ushering in the progressive era and saying that he was of the jackson, lincoln school. i suspect that a lot of people -- it was before when fdr did it. they would be against it when nixon and bush did it. my sense is, as the rest are in fact andrew jackson created and sharpened the tools of presidential power. presidential centrality.

we have a pendulum in the country. and the pendulum swings too far one way and sometimes it spends too far the other. one parable which is the virtue of being true is history said. remember the last time we overcorrected for presidential overreach, in 1974 and 75 it was a young man was the white house chief of staff that was very frustrated by that. his name was dyck cheney. soon i was come back the other way. so at some point, we need to keep the pendulum in the right place. and i think jackson used his power usually wisely, sometimes not. but he is a human being. all human -- they were all human beings. they run for the job.

by and large we do not force them to do it. quite the opposite. at the same time we talk about leadership. we should also talk little bit about the virtue of patience. this goes the obama question. he clearly understands this. i'm in a speech in grant park the road will be long, no, it will be steep. there will be setbacks. and in that way he was arming us and managing our expectations i think and realistic way. churchill once said three people can take any misfortune as long as they are convinced that those in charge of their affairs and not defeating are not themselves dwelling -- that's a great model. you will notice at the between english to do that. >> my name is john. there was a very powerful quote

- that you read. you mentioned that it could very easily have been written in a newspaper today. regarding our national meltdown of the economy. i was wondering if you could help me find it on google? what is the title of that document? >> it is the veto message, the bank veto message of 1832. >> one more question. >> it was framed. when jackson had it framed it hangs in the hermitage with the proclamation. i forgot that you are the things that he liked his own work. [laughter] and rightly! >> thank you. given that the obama campaign was one of the best run ever and the wonderful ground came in all of the money was raised. and the bush administration and the economy.

still, he only won by 4 million votes. why is that do you think? because you would think that it would be a landslide. >> well i have a very strong view on this. i think we are still a center-right country. at heart.i think our natural place if you look at us in western politics, including europe, we are basically right of center. if you dispute that and many people do, i would submit that a democratic president has just been elected who is not insisting on mandating universal healthcare. as a human right. i'm not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing but as a fundamental piece of center left to left ideology and policy, 60 is after harry truman called for it -- seems a little bit like table stakes. you mentioned the money he raised. let's not forget he opted out of the public - very

practically and i think ultimately, shrewdly. we are -- this is he had come in at 52.6 or.7. that is the biggest number 20 years. since george herbert walker bush. it is the first clean majority president in 20 years. a long time. i think if we are, if you look back the biggest numbers in modern history. let's leave 36 out of it. 40 it was very close, 52 and 56 are probably within the percentage margin. 60 was who knows who won. [laughter] 72 was a blowout. 76, very close. 80, very close to the end.

84, blowout, 88 significant, 92 sebastian junger clinton won with 43 percent. 96 we forget that he came in under 50 percent. 2000, we have had, i will leave that to you all. and bush only got 50.7 i think. in 2004. so, historically it is more likely to have a close election than a big one. but in historic terms, the last 20 years, this is a pretty significant victory. i do not think we should check for someone else's raised this with me recently. i do not think that we should -- and not is that you are but some people are saying well, it was close so it's not really a mandate. in recent historical terms it is a pretty big mandate. and we will see what happens. i noticed that senator mccain and senator obama met today and

talked about football. showing that there is in fact a common vocabulary in this country. [laughter] thank you all very much it has been great to be here. i really appreciate it. [applause] >> and this is booktv on c-span2 in prime time visiting with members of congress. learning about their reading list and showing you some of the programs. representative phil roe m.d. is a republican from tennessee. >> booktv recently visited capitol hill to ask members of congress, what they are reading this summer. >> this one book i am reading now just about finished is a book by sebastian junger called "tribe: on homecoming and belonging" . he is the author of the perfect storm. it is a book about ptsd,