>> thank you very much for your interesting perspectives of their. the next question relates to the us and this is the third year in which we have done this. our project specifically looking at the set of countries that robin alluded to a few moments ago, but there's a significant challenge here in the us depending on how you measure

with the tens of millions of people either excluded from or at the margins of the financial system, so the reasonable question is to ask what can we learn. so, what can we learn now that we have this incredibly rich tapestry of solutions explored around the world with global effort to improve the ecosystem. how can you bring some of those lessons learned for inclusion in the us. i will start with camille, but perhaps diego you have some as well. >> i'd be interested in hearing your answer to that question, diego. from my perspective there are three areas where we can learn from the rest of the world. first in the regulatory arena. i think what's interesting about the us financial regulation is it tends to be very sucked oral. your communication regulation. you have different types of financial regulators at the

federal level as well as the state level, so you have a lot of such poor old regulation and it's quite silent. what's interesting and what has evolved in some jurisdictions we have looked at is that you see a melding of that and you see some of-- a bit more of a flexible regulatory approach it i think that's important particularly as technology evolves its important to have coordination with a range of regulatory authority, so telecommunication as well as making etc. here, i think we can learn-- the second as diego mentioned this interesting area of overlap between generating digital identification and account opening which india has done really well.

here, particularly for people who have a significant documentation problem digital ids would be useful at i think thatcommendation of digital identification as well as providing more opportunities for simple basic account is also something we could learn from other places and finally i think what a lot of the experiences have shown here and in africa and india as well as south asia is that there is a market for people who are doing very small frequent transactions and i think we need here in the us we need to revisit how it is we encourage innovation around that and how we regulate around that small but frequent transaction. >> thank you. thoughts for how the us can improve our inclusion? >> i'm not an expert in the us, but--

[inaudible] >> this is very easy. i mean, you guys in the us have to see what's happening and copy and paste. lets, for example grow. it's growing in many many countries. you mention latin america. go copy. let's try to see how it can be implemented as well in the us. the financial sector in the us and everywhere is focused. they are happy with high markets. very few banks in the world are concerned about people in the base of the pyramid.

very few banks in the world are developing new business with the lower markets, so if they don't go let you people go to that market. adjust your regulatory framework as we are doing in the developing world. >> thank you very much for your comments. question primarily for diego as it relates specifically to columbia and as everyone knows there's been recent accord in columbia as ending a decades long conflict, so certainly a lot of options in terms of the future of columbia. i guess my question is, what do you think the impacts of that will be in the inclusion landscape giving this very recent and historical context. >> will, i think it's going to be a different country. we will move to a different level completely after 60 years

of war where we spent much of the budget in defense. most of the colombian budget wasn't spent until the share for the first heaven that history it will be the largest budget. white? we don't have to spend in defense because we have a peace agreement. much of the country was in the middle of a conflict, so developing business in those areas was very hard. now, we have the opportunity. thirdly, there has been policy on how to grow financial services everywhere. in 2010 when we dropped the policies on how to reduce the poverty in columbia we join forces with the finance ministry

and we said let's first of all deployed infrastructure everywhere in the country, so today columbia is the best connected country in the region. we have fiber optics. so, that is key to be part of the day by day life of people in those areas. also, the government said we have to encourage demand. it's not only about the supply side. we have to encourage demand, so all these subsidies the government is giving to poor people, that includes the subsidies for columbia members and the victims of the conflict. are getting distributed through

these new financial services and also in ordered-- in the government changed the regulation so new companies are now part of this game and the whole country team will change dramatically in the coming years. >> thank you very much. here's the question for both your thoughts. what do you think the greatest challenges are that the financial inclusion community faces in seeking to contribute to sustainable developing goals such as poverty reduction and gender parity? that's a huge question and we can have a phd thesis on either one of those, but your thoughts on poverty reduction and gender equality in terms of the greatest challenge and all this effort over the last five or 10

years, but we are a long way from having enough poverty reduction in certainly nowhere near and gender parity. >> i will take a crack at it and i'm sure there are about 16 things you could probably think of, but let me mention three. first come i think gender parity continues to be a very in transition problem and there are many reasons for that, but when we look at financial inclusion in general women tend not to do well even in countries where there are advances. there will be exceptions, but if you look at south asia for instance, very difficult financial inclusion for women their. the second thing is, i actually think one of the challenges of financial inclusion is to figure out both at the country level, but certainly businesspeople as well, how do we link financial inclusion to economic

participation in social inclusion and what are the steps from getting included in the formal financial system to getting into the formal employment system to then moving and getting some kind of social movement and social mobility, so i think those steps aren't well mapped out and you can install several different notes, soap that is a real problem and then the last thing is for the culture poor i still don't think financial improve-- inclusion is as relevant as getting those people stabilized to the point where they can then take advantage of financial services and i think we still haven't really cracked how to do that kind of economic stabilization at a really mass level and i know there were experiments and we worked a lot of graduation which is a kind of approach to economic stabilization, but that

needs to be larger scale to crack that not, i think. >> i see the main challenge is creating trust especially with financial services. how you make these people that haven't had access to any financial service to trust. we all do it here. how you break that barrier and create trust? trust of saving money or committed to pay interest on a loan or whatever. that's the main challenge for me to expand financial service to reduce poverty, so how we create trust between consumers and the financial providers in these new financial providers and secondly how we create trust between those new figures and regulators and that's a tricky balance. we have to adjust regulation,

but we have to have the right balance and in countries like columbia, again, having a huge traffic problem laundry money is a key issue. they may have more laundry mechanisms, so we have to create trust as well between the new players or the new services and government. what we have found in many countries is is too heavy for banks to go to the base of the pyramid. also, not only have a new regulation for new players, softer regulation. >> and i will take the liberty of briefly stepping outside of my moderator role and i cannot mention when we talk about trust

that it's another reason why cyber security is a really foundational part of the equation and one which has not gotten nearly the attention it needs in this context. there are a lot of people that talk about it, but i think i ground level there isn't nearly enough cyber security and if you are new to the financial system and one of your first experiences with it is losing your money because the new solution you tried got hacked, then obviously that's exactly the opposite of what we want to happen. new services, new in the sense of some people adopting it, so trust is a important issue. let me ask a question for camille, specifically. your experience at consumer financial protection bureau. given that, any thought on how

to advance consumer protection in this digitized environment through the context of financial inclusion? even though your personal workout than to be in the us. >> before he answered when they say that consumer financial protection bureau is the newest regular in the us that was created in 2011 as a result of the financial crisis and it's really governs market conduct in the financial services arena, so when i think about consumer privacy and consumer protection were generally for people at the base of the pyramid i think about trust, but i also think that the kinds of people who are

just getting into the financial system for the first time are people who aren't used to the marketing trick, spit it that way or the ways in which their data may be used etc. they are just not really aware of the many ways in which financial institution can make it so the data can also put them in fairly peak curious financial position if something goes wrong like if your loan is not repaid etc. from purely as the privacy level i think it's important to explain to people what they are getting into and there are many creative ways to do that using visuals etc. that's important and it's important regulators to be at the forefront of encouraging providers to provide that kind of education. i think the second thing is that

privacy standards can really vary country to country. a can vary depending on the sector of the financial services provider, so it might be different if you are in telecom and it might be different if you're in banking and different again if you are in syntax, so there has to be a way of harmonizing that and bring those up to global standards and i think there is important for regulators to conduct meetings where they are not only talking to providers, but talking to consumer advocacy groups and also talking to other regulators about how you do that kind of coordination and particularly in areas like you're in africa and south asia. i think it's important to have a regional approach to that because there is a lot of people movement for jobs, economic opportunity, so it's extremely important to have a harmonized approach not only within the country and various sectors and

jurisdictions, but across regions as well. >> thank you very much. question for diego here. as a reminder for the audience, we measure financial inclusion with four key dimensions which were country,-- country commitment, regulatory environment and actual adoption of these services. columbia received a perfect score on the country commitment in relation to financial inclusion, so what are one or two things columbia did to demonstrate this commitment to advancing financial inclusion? >> the first one is policy. policy to include everyone. secondly, deploying tools, deploying technology so people have access to it and columbia's number one in technology afford ability in the world.

, thirdly public-private partnerships, so we went to the financial sector in the traditional one and said we have to go to the base of the pyramid regulatory adjustments both in terms of just one bank that deploy this mobile team for people in the base pyramid and now it's one of the largest mobile teams in the world, more than 4 million people that didn't have a bank account now have-- they don't have to go to any bank branch to open an account. they can do it on their phone. they can already pay-- they can do a lot of things and thousands

and thousands of cash and then cash out points. traditional bank plays important role, but also other ppp's with the telecom sector or technology companies. for example, companies that have this business of charging with money, so like prepaid cards and stuff like that, they move also to payment system based to new regulation. so the penetration of services increased to medically, but to increase the demand of premium services we also need a new way to increase in e-commerce policy , solem-- colombia's growing fast in terms of e-commerce and this is not the traditional amazon e-commerce. there are new players in the market that adjust to columbia.

in columbia people don't go to the supermarket and there is a bunch of mom-and-pop shops, so how do you reconnect those shops with consumers through these apps? today it's one of the largest e-commerce services in columbia and that really helps payment systems grow and again, the government through those-- distributes payments in that way. >> this is a question for both are in you there. what factors i mean of course we all know and read the various factors that can impact and help promote financial inclusion and so one way to look at it is to sort of this organic view which is technology alone coupled with people will take care of it and government is not as important

as some people might suggest because so much happens organically. another viewpoint would be more the opposite in the spectrum that governments are the central players and the need to be the central players for financial inclusion. i would be interesting in perspectives on the relative importance of leadership, of just simply letting the technology state. what you think are the factors are most fundamentally important or other factors overplayed in importance or underappreciated? >> for me, the main factor for not only this financial industry , for the whole economy 's talents. we lack four types of talent. the first one is the engineers,

so that's a problem everywhere including the us. we don't produce enough engineers to develop new applications for the new financial sector. the second type that we lack our women in the industry and working women. this is not about gender equality. women-- if women don't work we won't be able to work to grow the economy period. that's very simple. i think in most countries that are doing this government subsidy with a focus on women, i mean, we have see the positive results on that as well. women to control the finance of homes has been successful.

we have to help them to move to formal jobs everywhere. also we have to change the whole system here today an accountant that doesn't understand change is worthless. i mean, we have to-- >> there are some accountants that might does a great. >> for all of your accounts out there that don't understand-- >> get retrained on the. that's key, so if it doctor doesn't understand what big data is, they won't be able to work in the new medicine. so, we have to change the way we look at people, every single profession has to have a bit of computer engineer. the four types we need is leaders. leaders that understand this new economy and how to incorporate

detailed business into the business. >> thank you. >> in addition to what diego mentioned, i actually think having spent a couple years at sea and worked on financial inclusion for a while i think intentional government policy is a really big factor. i have come to really embrace that and i think that's very important. i do think also that coupled with that you have to have an environment encouraging innovation and that means you have to have regular tour environment that also is enabling of innovation and also provides guideposts for how the financial system can evolve to meet the needs of poor people. in addition, when we talk about financial inclusion we mostly talk about expanding access to

financial services, but i also want to put a plug in for responsible financial services so in addition to the other areas i listed i think you need to have a basic consumer perfect-- protection framework. >> thank you. a quick reminder, so block chain is the technology that underpin things like that coin, but bit coin is merely one of many applications in another term you may have heard is distributed ledger technology, this idea that you can take a large number of computers, no single one of which is trusted, but yet paradoxically creates from that a network which in the aggregate behaves in a trusting manner with fascinating technology which has implications certainly in the financial sector, but also many other applications as well so i want to make sure we

are all on the same page with that. this is probably a good time to have a wrapup question and then open it up to audiences. i guess what i would ask for a forward-looking question, are you optimistic about looking at what's happened in the last five or 10 years as a proliferation of solution we have seen numerical progress on the metrics. are you optimistic we will continue to see good progress or is there a risk to plateau or fall back? what is your candidate view of the next five years in financial inclusion? >> on very optimistic. i think we have the tools. we have also young people. millennial's usually connecting creep that trust easier, so very

innovative on how to use that technology, so i'm optimistic that financial services are going to be a factor. however, there are some risks and as you mentioned cyber security is one of them. that's very important. the second risk is how to manage consumer protection. that's very important because a breach of data protection or data privacy could really damage that trust. >> so, i'm cautiously optimistic , may be a little optimistic than diego. i'm optimistic the services will grow and of the number of people covered will grow it increased radically. the caution is around a couple things.

first, i still think it's going to be very hard for extremely poor people to get into the financial services work i don't think we have cracked that. it's also going to be hard for poor women in particular to be included and still, not aware of really big gains in some of the countries where it's been a persistent problem. i also am cautiously optimistic because i think as you grow these services there is the potential for scandal and there's-- a lot of growth is digitally offered credit services and that offers opportunity for scams and all kinds of consumer abuses. i think also the fact that credit bureaus operate differently and that that might be opaque to consumers also offers opportunities for things to go badly for them and finally, the advent of using

social networking data to make credit decisions is a little creepy. i think it needs some guide rails if we are to use that as a way of including more people in the formal financial system. >> thank you. we will open it up to any questions that you may have. we have that microphones available, so if you have a question, raise your hand and my one request would be to briefly state your name and your organization and my other request would be to please ask a question. and it to do it rapidly enough that we had time to answer. gentleman in the front. anyone else, raise your hand and we will get to you. >> thank you. checkout communications. bit coin, advantage or disadvantage to this whole

concept of inclusion? number two, it seems america here in the states i think it's been wonderful consumer protection agency. how can we get more people-- plus the fact that things have not been honest brokers for long time and there is a trust issue that diego talks about. so, if you could just address those couple of things. >> i might talk about bit coin, also. so, i think bit coin is distinct from block chain technology and distribute ledger technology. the latter to have some potential to be really interesting in the financial inclusion space particularly as diego mentioned when you're talking about using property as

a way of the guy waiting who you are etc., so actually think that there is a lot of potential with block chain and distributed ledger technology that could be useful to property claims and all kinds of claims and also validating who has done what with money and also just maybe making it easier and a lot less complicated to move money from .8 to point b, so there is opportunity there. it has been a political-- [inaudible] >> folks who work there are used to that and it seems like a political terrain right now is complicated, so it's not entirely clear to me that given them list of priorities that the current and menstruation wants to work on that the cf. pb would

be the top of that list. >> i think in terms of detailed currency, very very possible. they are must to include proficiency, but that coin am not sure. i think central banks have to learn how to operate regulate currency to improve the efficiency of the whole cooperation among the countries, but they have to work on a clear governance of those detailed currencies. that's bit coin. so, if you go to a central bank in mexico or brazil and you talk to them about the currency, talk to them about that coin and they say no because they don't have

any control of that. so it's going to be complicated. to create a governance and not only leaders of the central bank, you need the whole financial community to understand that so you have to again go back to my point of talent. if people don't understand what block chain is, no one's going to support any initiative of moving to detailed currency with the central bank or very very few people, so in order to create that trust we need people to understand the technology and security in implications and also regulation. we are moving from static regulation to dynamic credit galatian. it will be based on algorithms because today is very simple regulation in every part of industry. the new economy is based on algorithms.

regulation will be based on algorithms as well. how come you have to issue and our government-- algorithm regulation if you don't know what it is. we had to still work hard on bringing people in this new economy. >> if i can add-- i've a question and a quick kind of collaboration because when we talk it sometimes opportunity for confusion. a digital currency is a contract with paper, but a digital currency is a clash that could include a crypto currency like bit coin, but it's possible to conceive digital currency that's not distributed in a way bit, so digital doesn't automatically mean has to be bit coin. bit coin is an example of a digital currency often called crypto currency where the management-- at least when i

think of these things i think of them differently in the sense i think that the governance issues of relating to centralized digital currency in other words into the like the government could issue its own currency in a centralized way, but yes digital is different from a government standpoint than a truly distributed currency like bit coin. also, bit coin on a big believer in the potential for block chain, but also sometimes see potential overplayed. i don't think that block chain is the solution to all problems, so there are cases where it's a great solution and frankly there are somewhere it's not the right solution and maybe hype that suggested is, so with that there's a woman in the back who had her hand up and we will go to her. >> hello i work with micro- finance institution trying to

watch a program and one of the indicators mentioned in those are two different distinct issues. part of that is what diego was saying about trust. my question for the 2017 report, how effective is our country in addressing this and in columbia's experience what has been good strategies and trends to make sure people below the poverty line are not only in the system, but engaged and actively using it. >> the: be a question i guess-- >> columbia is not only again about giving access to technology or financial sector, also to encourage application and using those financial services. so, like e-commerce, so how you

encourage and develop application for small companies so they improve productivity and part of that is using those financial services. the financial services by themselves or making payments by themselves don't move the needle, so you have to create the ecosystem of applications where they play the role of moving the money, but it's going to be other values from those applications. >> i agree with the question that it's been an issue, i mean, you can have a lot of access and we have shown increasing access, but typically the numbers are about one third of the people who are actually signed up use accounts and there is a big drop

off and is so that means for whatever reason they are not finding value and as diego said it's about building value, but part of building value is understanding what these customers need and they will be very different from customers and hire segments and typically the way financial services react to new customer segments as they take existing set of products and move them down market without actually doing the research that allows you to know what the needs are and how you meet those needs appropriately. >> the good news is that we sort of wised up six or seven or eight years ago you would've found people focus may be overly on potential access to a number of accounts created as a metric, but very few people in financial inclusion community today would use that number alone as any sort of global success metric,

so we often look at for example if you have done at least a certain number of transactions per month, then it sort of counts more than if you simply have an account you never use, but it's a core question. thank you very much. the gentlemen appear in the to the right and then to the woman in the back. >> thank you. henry schiffman, consultant on the legal and regulatory reform. another core question, i think diego suggested high margins were an obstacle to access to finance, but has the experience been that all these ngos in particular with what would be high rates of interest for advanced countries make access to finance possible? in recent years we are talking at two and half, 3% month interest in that gets funders to fund micro- finance.

>> what i said was happy with high margin in the base of the pyramid has low-margin. that doesn't mean-- of course in an open economy you choose what business you want men. when financial grows either they come from business people or telecom operators or when banks say let's saddle this new market. for example they said let's innovate and join forces with the think tank company and i think that combination is very important.

so, they have a lot of value to build together, so companies are really working on creating alliances with this new commerce to tackle the base of a pyramid and that's been successful. >> i would agree that-- and a couple different ways with diego. first of all, i think at least globally it's difficult for banks to go down market and really service those people in a way that makes sense for them and-- kind of from a p&l perspective unless they are willing to engage and partner with the syntax or people who can bring the cost of service down because they are doing a

lot of little transactions. its frequent. if it's not digital there is handholding. so, that makes inexpensive and particularly if you are not going to tweak your products to really work for poor people than it's going to seem expensive like the cost will seem extremely have. i think where there have been innovations actually east africa. kenya, equity bank for instance has tried to put together a digital mobile money product and now it's an interesting experiment is they are getting ready-- getting rid of atm and forcing people to use the mobile money product. so that will be interesting to see exactly how that works, but clearly what they are trying to do is drive demand for that and try. they actually created that product for poor people.

it will be interesting to see how that works out, but i think you have to create those products for poor people to figure how to work the margins and also to figure out how to leverage technology partners to drive down costs. so i agree 100% with you on that >> gentlemen in the same row. >> i used to be head of policy, it industry in india. a couple comments before my question. we are discussing issue of inclusive finance. sometimes the services don't only do anything, but can be harmful. you have to get back into some of the fundamentals of issues like trust. a lot of people in countries such as india and developing

countries trust banks and middlemen less than they trust a mobile phone, so that's why it comes back to what you just said, which is that existing financial institutions are not interested generally. in india we have been trying for 10, 20 years and it was only when the news in tech people grew that we caught atms and others. i won't go into detail. my question to you as to what extent is the issue of identity, digital identity a critical factor in financial-- inclusive financial-- as you know in india 1 billion people biometric,

people are worried. on the other hand should everyone have a social security number? it's really as fundamental as that. to what extent has not been eight constraint in providing inclusive finance or not? >> did you want to answer? i think it's been a huge constraint because in many many countries people are very immobile. they don't have fixed addresses they don't have identity papers. all of those things that are typically required by banks to satisfy, know your customer role etc., so it becomes a real barrier and so i think it's extremely significant and i can't stress that enough. so i think it's important to innovate in ways that will allow people who have those characteristics in that profile

which is that they are very transient and they don't have documentation to be able to sign up for bank accounts and other types of financial accounts. i agree. >> it's one of the main barriers or main opportunities to grow financial inclusion. it is a way to track a person's life and to understand what they do, but not only person, you know. most of the assets in the base of the pyramid-- that's also an opportunity. if you give a loan for a person to buy a motorcycle or a car having a detailed track is important for the financial

sector to increase the productivity of the financial sector, so it's critical. there are different ways to really grow these. a traditional-- moving everyone to detail id. i think one factor is to join forces between the government and financial sector to create a common platform of the id. >> i can't help but respond when you use phrases like it's an easy way to track people's life there are some people that would not necessarily celebrate that, so it's a double-edged sword. you can imagine reasonable fears of not wanting to be in the system like that as the information could be used.

>> over here i think we had david. >> hello. david, seagap. one of the areas where digital finance has not reach-- reached its financial is consumer emerge payments, payments made to the consumer from the government digitally to get customers or citizens used to receiving digital payments, but then the citizens go to an atm and crash out and go to the merchant seeming like an undue friction cost of handling, but somehow there has not been merchant acceptance or custer demand to make electronic payments to do you see that as an issue and if so what can be done about that? >> >> i'm going to say i think it's an issue for ensuring that access to finance grows in terms of a number of services utilized

i think there are different points. the first is that you need an ecosystem of merchants willing to use the system and in order to do that you typically have to have a platform, transactional platform that people can plug into and in some places that exists in some places it doesn't. in some places it could exist, but it would be expensive, so that kind of thing like a split -- split platform has to be ironed out work i think with the growth of e-commerce, however we are starting to see movement in some countries. as you know china increasingly india are sort of at the top of that list, but i would imagine places like kenya will come on board with respect to e-commerce because you have a significant growing middle class that will transact there, so i think you will start to get that critical

mass of businesses that are willing to take payments online and i think people will become more comfortable with that over time, but i'm not sure the poor people will do that because really poor people-- cash is king for them and i'm not sure it will be completely out of the system. >> that's what happened in columbia when we started to distribute subsidies with mobile payments. we saw a 90% were cashed out in the next two weeks like massively in the first three days. we understood we needed to create an ecosystem to work with local merchants so they can have applications using that money, but one main barrier here is the tax money. so, those merchants are afraid of being taxed.

this is an informal economy, so you have to be smart on what kind of obligation so they feel comfortable that they are not going to move into additional cost, even those tax costs. we created a lot of public private partnerships to pay those applications for the merchants. we move from 7% in columbia to 76%. the way we did it was trading applications for them, so we worked with foot companies, beer companies in all kinds of companies that we do business with merchants to create eight ecosystem and we have improved a lot. we seem to have a lot of room to improve, but we are moving in that direction. >> i'm glad to see a question from this side of the room.

i was worried i was going to be accused of bias from one side of the room, but now i have a question. >> i hope it's worthy. i hear a lot of measures that are-- about liquidity, how many transactions, you know. that can be good or bad with the results of the transactions. are there any experiments with measures that are more that of working capital. in other words can have an account has a compartment say 20% or wherever where they have to keep it in for well and it's putting real working assets that could be aggregated like a big indexed fund and people can develop real collateral and that could be another measure. does that make sense? >> in the us there are products like that. there are some regional banks that have worked on-- actually there's a lot of payday lending. has worked on products where we keep a certain amount of the

money in and you pay back a certain amount on the credit card. you build a credit to increase your credit score as a result and you can utilize the savings component as collateral for loans etc. so, those products do exist in the us. there are other payment cards for instance that have something similar. prepaid card that has a component where you can save money and so i think there is a recognition that just moving money in and out is not the goal of financial inclusion. the goal is obviously financial security, participation etc., so there are i would say individual companies that have tried to provide those kinds of products

that are useful for people who are trying to build credit or build a savings. >> i am seeing companies do that in the region and that is key, gun. we have to let them grow it help them grow, so in the case of latin america according to recent report there are more than 700 new companies and most of them are in this new alternative finance or payment system, like 15 or 20%, a bunch of them working on how to create new ways of building credit records and i think again part of this is let them grow. let them grow and it's very difficult for regulators to do that, but one way is creating

kind of sandboxes. let's create an environment where they can grow and we have rules for you to grow and you have a surety and everyone understands the business or regulator and new regulation could be issued to regulate. >> i will add to the thought you put your finger on an important issue which is how do you measure these things and one reason people measure existence of the account-- and then transactions. if you look at more sophisticated measures it becomes harder. the other thing is there's not a one to one correlation. you can imagine someone who is very included almost never makes payments from an account. they deposit things into that

account and the balance goes up in their state-- saving, not spending. but if you decide this person has not made an account because -- then they are not included in that would be the wrong decision. your question gets at this by definition kind of impossible to solve the question of what do we measure, but it's a great point and that we have measured the easier things, but not always the ones that correlate what we want. we have time for maybe one or two more questions in the back, please. >> thank you. my name is karen. my question kind of follows on the data. you mentioned early on the number of under banked or under banked people across the country in the us and i'm wondering, is there a reliable source that it's like a local government interested to know where their

community was, so maybe they could target actions in a certain way that they could drill that number down in a reliable way. >> i'm not sure of more regional specifics, but the fdic is really the one that has traditionally done study around under banked numbers in the us. what one suggestion i could make is that there is several cities that have come together, cities for financial empowerment which have coordinated their approach to financial inclusion, so the main organization is actually based in new york city. i think it's cochaired by someone in new york city and then the san francisco treasurer

as well. so common that organization should have some statistics on the more regional level or at least the ventral level, so you might be able to plug in their. >> one more last question and then we will wrap it up. >> hello. on judy cochran and i really appreciate what camille had to say about addressing the ultra- poor. around the world, those who are the poorest of the poor often speak of minority which that are not even recognized by former financial institutions and i wonder to what extent is this report take language into account with regard to inclusion >> i may-- not sure the best way

to answer that, but the short answer is we did not pay a lot of attention specifically to the issue of language with the understanding though, that in many places the financial services are developed with specific knowledge of the local languages, but as you say in communities there are minority communities who speak mileages that are outside and that is clearly a barrier to inclusion and so that's another challenge. great point and i certainly would not claim we have really addressed it. terrific point. many many countries in the world we have this. okay. i just want to express my thanks to our panelists and to all of you for a terrific set of questions from the audience and great perspective from our palace and we welcome any of you to look at the report on the brookings website and thank you again for taking some time to be here today. [applause].

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