>> these are non' fiction and funny and fun. the people in them have senses of humor. >> you are watching booktv. television for serious readers. any program you see here online at booktv.org. good evening and welcome to opportunities's program hosted by the commonwealth club of silicon valley my name is mary ellen, it is my pleasure to introduce doctor richard dockens

evolution mare biologist pounder of the foundation for reason and science. and author most recently of science in the soul selected writings of a passionate rationalist. doctor was voted property magazine number one world sinker, and was on daily telegraphs 100 greatest living geniuses list he earned his degree in zoology and doctorate in animal behavior from oxford university and become university's first professor for the public understanding of science. his best selling books include the selfish gene, blind watch make or and god delusion and sold 3 million copies and translated in more than 30 languages worldwide. ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming richard dockens.

[applause] >> okay. are we all can you hear me? that sounds bette. not bad. okay. so we have a lot of heavy duty question and things to pond oar tonight so i thought maybe we would start with something a little -- lighter and personal an essay towards end of the book science and the soul. i have a bound gally which -- gives me complete license to write all over these pages which you don't want to do with your copy was book but it shall >> like to o read when you written.

some of it is fascinating so i wonder you have this wonderful essay about influenced by charles darwin and dr. doo little how many of you have written dr. doolittle or seen the film with recollection harrison so you know and you pretty much know that's pretty good. >> i do there's similarity between dr. doolittle and at least the young darwin roughly contemporary. and he was the great naturalist like charles darwin and both loved animals and i think i was genuinely influenced by dr. doolittle and never seen anymore of the film thank goodness. >> recollection harrison that was good. that one -- [laughter] >> i always think that you really love a being seeing a. concern but anyway i love dr.

doolittle and i think he did influence me. i think he infliewngsed me to value nonhuman animals many a way that i might not have done. he's actually -- sensors in libraries because of racism and that was a symptom of the 1920s when he wrote the book and remember everybody in britain was racist at the time, and in a very gentle kind of way. but i think he -- that dr. doolittle more than makes up for it by his anti-speciesism. >> so dr. doolittle as you point out in the essay he gets into fixes over and over again. and which he's helped out of them by other animal manies. who figure things out what he needs, and sort of form webs of rescue for him. >> yes. so he can talk to a nonhuman animal and that's really the plot of all -- all of the

stories and everything turn on this one trick that he has. sort of like good science fiction where you alter one thing and then everything else follows from that. >> so it struck me reading it had this in the last couple of year had quite a number of best selling books and some of them very good, for example, a book called beyond words by karl who was a wonderful marine biologist but called of the soul octopus by cy months gom rei a wonderful science writer, and they're focused on animal conscienceness, and as karl says you know animals care about their own life. they want to increase their own life, and they care about it furthering their own life just the way you and i do. and, of course, there's a -- there's kind of a plea at the center of these books for us to understand that had we can't

just be wiping creatures off the face of the earth. what i like about the doctor doolittle analogy or -- connection is he's helped and aided by animals in ways that we are also aided by animals without our understanding how u we are connected to them quite conscienceness all of the time. yes i think it is a bit of a is a children's book and -- [laughter] >> all right. he is but you're so right actually. [laughter] another -- another of the early in the book concept i mean writing so accessible and charm hadding and easy to read but you have some real concepts that really make you sit down to think about them pretty hard. in one of them -- i have just been really pondering a lot is

your -- your discussion is of how humans and how this moment in time or organisms adapted because natural selection and selecting genes over eon to bring the incomes generation forth. is perfectly well adapted to the path. but not to the present or to the future. and that along with that, when we have these aggregates of lots of successful humans as we have now -- we have these what you call e mother jengt i don't know if we we want to call things that we create together such as the internet then again -- is a little bit beyond our own capacity to deal with -- perfectly well but misaligned with our own. this idea of time, i think, in our placement many it is very beautifully -- framed by the beginning opening of your book and wonder if you would read

from that -- >> >> so this is the introduction i wrote specifically for this book. much of the rest of the book is previously published essay and others not published in this country for specific corruption. i'm writing this two days after a breathtaking visit to arizona's grand canyon. breathtaking still hasn't gone the way of awesome although i fear it may. to many native american tribes grand canyon is a sight of numerous origin mixed from havasu pie to the zuni, and of the hopi dead. if i were forced to choose a religion that's the kind of religion i could go for. the grand canyon statue on religion our classing the petty smallness and few colt o which through his dark accident still afflict the world.

in the dark night i walked out along the south rim of the canyon, lay down on the low wall and gave up the milky way i was looking back had in time witnessing scene from 100,000 years ago when the light set out on its long quest to dive through my pupils and spark my retinas. at daunt following morning i return to the spot shuttered with vertigo as a i realize where i had been lying in the dark. [laughter] and looked down towards the canyon floor, again i was gazing into the past two billion years in this case. back to a time when only microbes stirred sightless beneath the milky way if his soul was sleeping in that majestic hash, they were joined by the rock bound ghost of bites

and breaking and amonites everyone dinosaurs. was there some point in the mile long evolution rereprogression with something called a soul -- sprang into existence like a light suddenly switched on. or o did the soul creep into the world that dim thousandth of the a soul in a warmth a tenth of a soul in a camp, half a soul in the year, then a typical human soul -- eventually a soul on the scale of a bet but a subject of a personal identity each one of us know we possess it even as many thinkers it is an illusion. an illusion constructed as might speculate because a coherent agency of singular purpose helps us to survive. lz well ill tell you what i wrote in any book upon reading those raffs. is richard getting spiritual on us? [applause] that is also a

point. it is meant to be provocative to put that word in the title. i said last night that -- i quoteed one of my great heros, great term medical scientist, and a biologist and nobel prize winner he said -- i hope i shall not be getting election. he said, i hope i shall not be thought ungracious if i say it the outset that nothing on earth would have induced me to intend kind of lecture you may think

i'm about to give. [laughter] and i then said, i hope i may not be thought i hope i shall not be thought ungracious if i had the jot but if you have come hoping from the ieg world soul to witness some kind of conversion -- [laughter] you're kind of disappointed -- then there are two means of the world stolen that is somewhere in the book i quote two dictionary definitions from the dictionary. one of which is the immortal the religion the supernational soul one that survives your death. that's -- not what i'm talking about. in the other is the sort of spirit to effective emotional response to the silence to the universe to life to deep space that kind of thing that sets a

soul in which had i use in the title. i wonder if you could elaborate a little on this e mernlgt concept? >> well, you were saying earlier about how it is very interesting point you're making about how -- we are adapted to the past all of us are adapted to past the genes that made us our genes that have survive through countless generations you look back on your ancestor and every single one of your ancestors not a single one died before aching at least one let to sexual compilation. obvious but it's very significant because very, very many of their contemporaries died without or died young or without having reproducing. so we -- we contain the jeans that's helped our ancestors to survive in the past. i've got a phrase which appears in the book and have a lot of other in my book the generate book of the dead that generate book of the dead is the genes in

a modern animal that describe the past as a -- gene in an animal can be a digital description of the world in which the ancestors of the past survived. not the present and not the future. and as mary ellen has just pointed out properties mean that the future is going to be different and in the case of human rots very, very different because we have changed our environment and break neck pace. much, much faster i suppose than any other animal that has ever done in a way it's amazing that we do -- thrive so well in an environment which is rather different from the environment in which our genes survived in the past. we wear clothes. we -- live in huge cities. we get around in fast cars and past planes things like that. we do suffer from psychological

problems probably because the world in which we live now is different from the one that which biology was naturally selected. and this is all coming on to heading of the properties. >> beautifullage you don't beginning and trail and very very long geological time frame and then the cosmic time frame and then we have this person, you, observing both -- and then you're talking about this fast adapted for but this future to which we're hurdling, and we're creating it as we hurdle. now this rate of change, why has it increased? has it increased have we been increasing buff our increased numbers or -- what's, what's causing this? >> i mean, i think we -- it is increasing. and if you think about the -- well if you go back to the stone

age bronze age, and so that's -- huge spans of time in between each of those major advances -- agriculture 10,000 years ago 10,000 or so, then the industrial revolution and invention of printing nowadays we have the computer the increase in the part of computer, speed an economy speed, and cheapness of computers. we're living in a astonishly fast changing world. and it's show nothing sign of slowing down and still accelerating. >> so two questions kind of related to that. one is it would seem that -- that it's -- that we're almost drimp by our own invention of our own tools the tools of perception in particular, the starting with low or o referencing perhaps the telescope. but satellite technology the microscope -- the ability that

we have to drill down ever, ever deeper to ever, ever more had, you know, finely granulated -- discernment of what reality is. and in a way that's social an internet, twitter, ways that we organize o our ways sociallily it would seem our tool making is driving our social behavior in many ways and i wonder what are you think about that. it's not like we decided that our arts that are culture, that our understanding of history would be what determine us. but our tool making is really the thing it would seem.

>> yes. and i think there's a kind of it's rather like what biologists call coevolution. advances make way for the next advance. and a in our case i think we have with in the world of confucius we have software hardware coevolution. where advances this hardware make possible soft square that wouldn't have been wouldn't have been possible before thed hardware was invented and then so -- each one paves the way as it were opens the door for the next advance. and that is getting faster. >> i have to say it would seem that one thing where it sort of dispensing willy-nilly as we go is biology. the biological reality of other species, one of the things is that there seems couple of thresholds that we have passed without really fully getting

what we've done. one is that the aggregate number of humans on this earth has become a bye joe yo pises call force in the fossil record and american society for geophysicist or -- the american i never get it right but they want to now call our -- it [inaudible conversations] to reflect this profound impact of human it is on life on earth. now one of the things that we're doing is we're reduce biodiversity of speeds and scientists say we're using up too much and depriving species of photo synthesis but taking away our habitat because we're putting so many more human bodies on the earth that we're converting their habitat to human -- buildings for people to live in and agriculture to feed people. but -- but we're doing something

very scary to me very dangerous and kind of tragic which is reducing diversity itself. and i wonder it if you could tell us about diversity in a very, you know, going back to the very -- profound and a simple mechanism of national selection. and how it depends on diversity how our life has depended on diversity. and what are some of the how do you see the horizon as we take it out? >> i think it's more your subject than mine actually. mary and i -- i -- [laughter] i mowrnt loss of diversity and mourn the extinction of species. if only at the level i think it's some -- massive distinction as well and some people say well the extinction so called that humans are now causing it's -- no worse than wiped out dinosaur and things maybe not. but it's tragic.

and i -- i respond to to in emotional way, i mourn the loss of silence. i mourn the -- loss of the doto passenger pigeon. but what you're talking about is something bigger than that which is to be the catastrophic loss of species and ecologist tell us that -- this is more than just the loss that actually are species are are actually necessary for the continuation of the balance of the ecosystem. >> you know, i think it intersects pretty as longly with your expertise because you know you were talking about the genes that are this genetic book of life. but when i first started writing about evolution myself, and i was taught by -- evolutionary biologists that some species like an octopus has conserved, conserved genes in it ancient

because octopuses way back in time evolve from -- different species that some cases no longer exist. but that those conserved genes that persists through eon are likely to be genes that are most hearty and most adaptable to future scenarios so it is important to conserve species that have those ancient lineages buzz those conserve genes are perhaps or more parent than more recent genes. >> that's very interesting i didn't know that. that is interesting it is fascinating how some animals to have -- to have conserve things very, very long time of this happened i norms variance in the share age of genes. yes. j well to go back to your own words. because it really is more important to stay in many your world although they

overintersect much. but in that section it is not unreasonable speculation but conscienceness in infant mirrors several progression over o time of eve luges does a fish say have a rudimentary or toling of personhood to connect that a little bit with a essay that you have somewhat later had is a really pass mating essay about the internet. in which you wonder there's a sentence called met gain and it's about how internet may be changing the way we think and here's your sentence unplanned worldwide unification that the world is achieving mirrors the evolution of the nervous system in multicellar animal and you sate cloud is superhuman interstellar traveler whose nervous system communicate with each other by radio orders of magnitude faster than our puttering nerve impulses. but in what sense is the cloud to be seens a single individual rather than a society? >> i

should interject there that this cloud that you're talking about is from science fiction. it's science fiction book by fred who is, it was a great astronomer and -- he has a lot of science fiction much of it not very good but first science fiction -- [laughter] first science fiction book is extremely good. it is called the black cloud. and it's mod rn by the on knock finishes hero which you can't help had wondering maybe -- [laughter] obnoxious turning up in all -- under different lane it is a different character always equally horrible. anyway -- [laughter] the black cloud is a superhuman mega superhuman organization that appears this comes towards the feet on the energy of the family and even which wily the human

scientist on getting touch with this and manage to communicate with it and learn about about it. and it -- -- different parts of the cloud communicate with each other by radio and the scientist rave raise a very interesting question in what sense are you cloud a single individual? and the cloud replies, well, the question doesn't mean very much. when the rate of communication the speed of communication between the different communicator is very fast an may have stopped about them and different individuals altogether. so if all of us could community tell pathically with a speech, we could all as a -- it were community our thoughts directlily the speed of light speed of radio waves. then, we would be one individual wouldn't mean anything to us.

as question talk about ourselves as being separate individuals. and i think the point you're getting at is that the internet may be moving towards -- sort of science fiction future where it becomes a single being. a single living organism of some kind. and i think also that passage you made made analogy with the deal of a child -- where it's suggested that the conscienceness of melding of a child not at a single agent at all. but becomes a single agent through the sail sort of molding as we've been talking about. >> it's all pretty fascinating it's charles dickens said best of times in the worst of timing looking at it both ways it seems exciting. >> that's the way i feel. >> and then it is terrifying at

the same time. speaking of which -- just reading i was rereading selfish gene which i read many years ago and i was reading contemporary called gene out in the last year which is really good and i was remarking to myself how -- how how timeless your book this helps yen gene is that propanty of what you're explaining many this book hasn't change haded match in the decades since it was published. >> thanks for that. glad about that. well in my -- my opinion -- [laughter] but a couple of things have changed and one is our ability to mess with the gene. so now -- humans can alter at the gene level and suppress certain genes and we have developed the ability to insert influence on genes and i wonder if you would explain what

crisper is to the audience some of you probably know but nots everybody does. and tell us what you think about this moment many time where we've perhaps become blind watcher makers ourselves. >> yes. as it happen i read coming on plane coming over from england, a very interesting book on chris per who lives in these parts a professor of the university. going on planes is a wonderful opportunity to read books isn't it? [laughter] you're separated i read this entire book between london and new york. reading an entire book by the way is more than -- donald trump has done in his whole adult world. [applause] genetic manipulation the actual changing of genes is thing that has been possible to do only really relatively recently, and one of the main

ways of doing it sob transplant a organism into another one and you've heard about -- cats that glow blue with jellyfish genes in them and stuff like that. crisper a wonderful book i do recommend it called crack many in creation and biographical about her career but it explains all about -- the technique of crisper and -- possible misuse and power that it might have. it is a very, very powerful fast technique for changing actually writing, actually programming genes in organism os any

organism you like. it cools from -- that bacteria with their own immune system against viruses bacteria are very, very heavily afflicted by viruses called -- what are they called? >> thank you that's right. thank you. bacteria stages. and the technique that back tier ya use in order to recognize viruses in order to, you know, to kill them is a technique that humans can now exploit in order to edit genes of any organism you like. so immensely powerful new technique giving rise to great possibilities also great misgivings. where as in the past and -- well actually thousands of years -- we have controlled evolution by manipulating the part of the equation nonrandom survival and nonrandom reare production we've controlled that to produce dogs

that are wolves that have been changed into poodles and bulldogs. >> >> this may be an over simple question but let say is somebody messes with this gene in humans to create some type of human that is dangerous from science fiction what would happen after that? is it possible possible?. >> i suppose that it is. that is a philosophical discussion i did have a stroke a little bit and it's part of my voice but the distinction between negative and positive manipulation is already used quite successfully for removing genetic disorders. but there are some people who even object of those ethical grounds to meddle with nature or play god. much more people object to has to manipulation to change the genes of a human so they become

better at music or mathematics or high jump or running or something like that. partly because it smells a little bit of hitler to make the bond blue-eyed aryans you need to make an important distinction dictatorial government imposed you can still object to say dr. i want my child to be a brilliant musician which may be possible. >> that seems inevitable. >> there are people that object to that actually. but i can see why although don't worry too much and force a child to sit down at the piano and work at it. they weren't all that much different i think i would rather have the gene. [laughter] and so those nightmare visions and the

regiments with that world order it was the best of times and worst of times the future can be scary sometimes. >> i am sure we have fantastic questions from the literary audience. there have been many recent events so what are your views of this area?.

manipulation is already used quite successfully for removing genetic disorders. but there are some people who even object of those ethical grounds to meddle with nature or play god. much more people object to has to manipulation to change the genes of a human so they become better at music or mathematics or high jump or running or something like that. partly because it smells a little bit of hitler to make the bond blue-eyed aryans you need to make an important distinction dictatorial government imposed you can still object to say dr. i want my child to be a brilliant musician which may be possible. >> that seems inevitable. >> there are people that object to that actually. but i can see why although don't worry too much and force a child to sit down at the piano and work at it. they weren't all that much different i think i would rather have the gene. [laughter] and so those nightmare visions and the regiments with that world order it was the best of times and worst of times the future can be scary sometimes. >> i am sure we have fantastic

questions from the literary audience. there have been many recent events so what are your views of this area?. >> talking about the beginnings and a the creation of life at least once had to happen at the origin of life and it is one of the big mysteries of biology it happened about 4 billion years

ago and how might have happened there is a bunch of theories. the first self replicating entity. once you have the first gene the first self replicating entity than that is the prerequisite for urged iranian selection to

be going. but had is a first step action? it could indeed dna is the efficient replicate her in order to do its replication you cannot have that complicated infrastructure so we have a catch-22. with the origin of life for golf --. so as a related molecule all are in day has weakened -- rna is not as good of the replicated as dna but the capacity of the enzyme like a protein. so rna could do both jobs if you have rna it to be dna and

protein so it was rna that started things off and then the enzyme function was taken over by the protein. is there a point that we must unplugged? that is a question about artificial intelligence and talking about musk search for artificial intelligence. you must listen to elon musk. [laughter] he is a genius. so is stephen hawking and he worries about it as well. so as a philosophical maximalist nothing in our bodies or brain so i am committed to the view

that potentially can be simulated by machines so i think it is definitely possible that machines will do everything that

we can do and likely to a better and may not happen for a long time but it is possible in principle sunday floor are worried about it. that the jobs will be taken over and then we will be dispensed all together if we get to that part if the robots even need as saddle. and then the creations takeover. they will do a better job than we do. [laughter] >> at aetna life we would be so particularly worried about that. is a static. [laughter] i would be sorry if shakespeare and mozart and

michelangelo were forgotten and nobody knew about them but to actually appreciate him. but to be wowed by great poetry and music so the best of times and the worst of times. to be scary and terrified at the same time exhilarating.

>> i have some questions about religion. >> if you can ask of believers one question with such understand religious behavior only after we have named it. so if we have understood what religious behavior has been good for or why it devolved then we don't have to call that religion any more. we can just understand it served

a purpose i did talk about those evolutionary advantages of religion and end with is that darwinian survival value? and added ubiquitous. with all human cultures. so what i said was to rename the of question that it is the wrong question so maybe the right question is what is the survival value of a psychological predisposition to manifest itself under the right circumstances? that is what i

mean by renaming. it is no longer the survival value of religion but a psychological predisposition to believe what your elderly veterans tell you. a tendency to be scared of dying. a combination of psychological predisposition rather than ask the question what is the survival value? and what was the other question?. >> there is a couple of them. and another person wonder your thoughts on religion and government and artificial intelligence and the super human. mitt you were going to puncture someone how'd you do that? >> so read the bible. [laughter] [applause] >> are liberals afraid of is

what? yes i think it may be referring to abandon their principles with homophobia and misogyny and that we hate to homophobia. but when it comes to islam read many people in this country that

forget all about that. that is part of fair culture and condescending thing to say. and a terrorist to has a donation to rule have is mom. end with a tendency to give islam a free pass with the principles of feminism in and homophobia and things like that. >> i believe it is this left

tendency that mistakenly think that is bomb is a race but it isn't. [laughter] it is very widespread.

if you will convert out of it it is not a race. [laughter] that is part of it. also is a notable tendency and we all do that. i hope we do. but they have identified the wrong victims they think that muslims are victims of oppression from the west actually they are from is long. -- is lomb islam that is the rio victimization. so now we just need to reform is long -- islam. in the liberal community in the west need to reform our view of who is the victim and who is

doing the of victimizing?. >> so this idea of trying to do for religion of people's human rights but yet say that we should reform the of is people that already agreed that we should not be oppressing other people's human rights. do we replace religion with some other type of code? what could be effective the way people aggregate their communities around their values? and those that say you're not getting the whole thing because science does not explain everything. there are believes that people have that our spontaneous continuing through art and music

with the issue mess -- finest expressions so we cannot just get rid of religion. >> science can explain everything of the written word. [laughter]. 8bin. [applause]

>> arch and the music and morality is a different matter. science cannot tell you what to is right or wrong. the science certainly can help you enormously about what to do with the right and wrong to identify a logical inconsistencies with scientific reasoning. and that is a scientific method it of thinking like arch and musec yes many great works of art or music are inspired with religion it is a great mistake to think that it makes that valid there is nothing of this sort. is entirely natural that should have been inspired by religion that is where the of money was. and they are sponsored by rich

benefactors. michelangelo was employed to paint the sistine chapel. but religion does provide genuine inspiration the story of jesus' passion and crucifixion that is not surprisingly inspired. and we shall never know or with beethoven symphony you ask what do we replace religion by? those are different purposes of morality. so i suggest to you that science and reality provide inspiration that is every bit as beautiful to provide inspiration for art. community and religion has provided community with a sense

of community. >> what do you think is going on? wide we have donald trump as our president? [laughter] >> partly because you have a dupe the electoral college system. [applause] [laughter] which by the bay isn't that difficult to get rid of as people think. on paper it is very difficult because you need a majority of roadhouses of congress and that needs to be ratified by a substantial number. it is a very difficult thing to do. the constitution does allow each

state to change the way to the electoral college. so mean and nebraska are very

small so that doesn't make difference but if california were to read the basket and main do it would be a disaster. said you cannot do that. what you could do is those individual states in their own way decide they will follow the constitution to send all of their electoral college delegates but california could decide they will vote in the electoral college to say they will vote that way and this is on a state-by-state basis. so you don't have to wait and there is that movement afoot that they agreed to do that. doesn't get better that zero romney -- an anomaly at present.

so the electoral college members pledge to vote for a particular candidate so that they will go to washington deliberate to a with make the best president like a new chancellor of university or read their books. [laughter] >> interview them. i recommend moorage san my analysis. he is one of the few people that got the prediction right. talking about the rust belt people feeling inferior. if you have not seen that analysis. >> and then timing this back to

a scientific question is day catastrophic event resulting in the death of most humans how long would it take fourth humans to revolve and then in a related question do you think they will ever eve rolf to split off into more than one species?. >> yes. speciation requires there is

some separation between the incipient species. normally this happens to a geographical accident where the population is split will finds itself on an island so there is energy improve between them. that will not happen on this planet now. >> we are becoming so much the of the chance for humans is of the colony was set up on mars. with little a gene flow. >> since really have time for one last question what were lit you like to tell us? you are perhaps into room -- to look for

guidance and often feel very separate the of our moral values in

the only reason to believe that anything is true. [applause] so, personal opinions, feelings, emotions are fine, and we all have them, but they do nottle you what is true and they don't -- should not guide important decisions like who you vote for and what you do with policy decisions that you take. evidence is the only reason to believe anything. that's as far as believing things is concern. where morality is concerned,

ethics is concerned, that needs to be intelligently designed. don't base your morality, don't bait your politics, don't base your ethics, on holy books or tradition or revelation or authority. base it on intelligent desires, sitting down together and trying to design the kind of society you want to live in. that's it. [applause] >> i hope you have enjoyed this

evening's program bought to you by the commonwealth club of silicon valley. we want to thank richard dawkins. our odd cbs here in santa clara and those joining us on the raid and the web, and now this meeting of the commonwealth club is adjourned. [applause] that was fun. so, richard dawkins will be signing backs. we would like you to sign up to have that occur on the left. because of the number of people here it tonighter is there's no personallation, just the autograph, and no selfies.

jacker you're watching booktv on c-span2. joining us now from the freedomfest convention is author lee edwards, his most recent book is a brief history of the cold war. before we get into the cold war, mr. edwards, how many books is this for you? >> guest: probably 25, 26. but who is counting. >> host: what topics? >> guest: basically about american conservatism. i'm got the best job in the washington, dc. i'm there at the heritage foundation. i'm their inhouse historian. they let me write becomes so