moment, because her very conservative grandfather beamed when he thought about this little girl. this problem, this progress that we try to bring through democracy, through justice and equality, it's a long, long, long road. and people have traveled that road for a long time.ha america's traveled it for a very long time. we're still working at it. so the thing i'm most greatful for, is that even with our own troubles here in the united states, we stood for the proposition that every man, woman and child should live in freedom. >> i want to highly recommend to everybody here this book i enjoyed very much reading, "democracy."ocracy [applause] and i want to thank you for your service to our country over many, many years. >> it was an honor.vi thank you. [applause]

>> welcome back to booktv on c-span2. live coverage of the 2017 national book festival. condoleeza rice interviewed by one of the major sponsors of the festival, david reubenstein. over in the history and biography room, ben mcintyre has started his talk. we'll bring that to you live in progress. it is about -- special forces during world war ii. rogue heroes is the name of the book. >> then effectively run away

back into the desert. it sound like a simple idea and indeed it was, but in many ways it was completely revolutionary because many of the middle-ranking officers at that point had a very static idea hom war is fought. this came from the first world war. the idea two large armies will meet in a large space and fight it out until one of them wins. what sterling was recommending completely different and completely revolutionary. he got permission to start recruiting and he set about doing this in very particular way. he was looking for people who were unconventional. he was looking for people who didn't stick by the rules and he got them. one of his earliest recruits,s e paddy mayen. neil: explosive temper, from northern ireland. was extremely bad temer with unrestrained violence. he probably destroyed more planes than anybody else during

the second world war, any w fighter pilot on either side. blew them entirely on the ground. h another key recruit, jock lewis, oxford-educated intellectual with matinee looks but he was very clever man. he invented a particular type of bomb which is still called a lewis bomb. which is russic hand-held time bomb. i particularly love this painting by whistler, because it shows lewis training at sand down racecourse in britain. that is one of the big racecourses. they are coming up behind him. he is holding a gun and about to mow down runners and riders in m the 350. another key recruit, red seekings who was foul-mouthed one-eyed boxer from cambridge. who had sort of gift for killing really. he was able to do so withoutut rehours.he was he was, he described himself as

a rough, tough, so-and-so. most people thought he was a complete maniac but he was the sort of person you actuallyan wanted on your side in a warar like this. his closest friend was a man called johnny cooper. cooper was actually 17. he was too young to join the sas. he lied about his age to get in. rather typical photograph of ar ofr. there are lots of photographs in the sas archive and photographs in the book. one of the particular good things sas was good attic at thatting photographs of themselves. like they knew they would be extremely famous after the war. they might as well capitalize on it. cooper was extraordinary man. he fought through every single one of the campaigns that took place that the sas took place and has a broad grin in every single photograph.

he was unlikely candidate would become famously fit fighting force. he was tall, stooped, had a bad back. he had conjunctivitis, had sores and unfit, drank too much, and he had particular talent. he had a gift for identifying sort of characters he wanted. this was sort of like a dirty dozen operation. sterling went around picking up people he thought would fit the bill. he said i didn't want psychopaths. he got a few psychopaths but he wanted people that were nted pentional. who were able to think laterally, but be when necessary completely ruthless. he began training them at cabrit in egypt. they were trained in unarmed combat, in long-term desert survival techniques. in particular, in parachuting.

sterling believed a very good way to train for parachuting jump out of the back of a speed truck at 40 miles an hour. that is actually not a good way for parachuting because you'rein going horizontally, not vertically. but a very good way to break your legs which quite a number of trainees in fact did. d this was very tough training. and indeed two died while training for the first operation, which was calleddtr operation squatter. it took place in november 1941. it involved 55 parachutists. the idea was simple. they would parachute in the desert. speak up aligned airfields, blow up as many planes as they could and then escape. it was unmitigated catastrophe.. these parachute its jumped intoo the teeth of what was the worst gail, the worst storm in the area for 30 years.

most of them landed miles off target. many became completely disorry eneight stated lost in the at night. some were scraped to death on the desert floors because of high winds they couldn't unclip parachutes. some were badly wounded because of the fall, simply they were abandoned and died thirst in the desert. of the 55 parachutists went in on operation squatter, 23 came back. they straggled back to a rendezvous in the desert with a long-range desert group, the lrdg. these were the desert reconnaissance unit whose task it was to drive across the 500-mile libyan desert and spy on the troops moving along the coastal road. they were brilliant desert navigators. they worked out incredible techniques for getting acrosss.

the desert and they were the ones who took survivors of the first sas operation back out again. instead of this leading to the immediate disbanding of this operation, and sterling actually interestingly never reported quite what a disaster it hadre been.. i read his report on operation squatter and miracle of economy. he says, didn't go terribly well. we're getting on with the next one. [laughter] but as a result of it, he hit on a very simple idea, which if the lrdg, if these truck-born and jeep-born troops get into the desser and take them out, they could bring them in the first place. b that would obviously obviate the need to jump out of planes with parachutes in the middle of the night. i don't know why this glarerying obvious solution did not occur to anyone before is one of the great mysterieses of the sas

story but it was real turning point for the sas because it made them highly mobile. they began an alliance, the sa s&l rdg, to carry out lightning raids on airfields. they blew up hundreds of them and escaped back into the desert. one of the things i learned writing this book, it requires a particular cast of mind. sometimes that cast of mind has to be particularly brutal. i mentioned earlier paddy maine the irish rugby player. i found one in the archive that is particularly chilling. a description by paddy on an assault of an airfield calledair tamet it goes roughly like this. they got on to the airfield. they noticed, planted their bombs, sneaking off without being picked up by centuries and when they spotted in airfield a hut with light coming under the door. a party was taking place inside,

italian and german officers were having a ball inside. and this is obviously very briefly maine's description what happened next. i kicked open the door and stood there with my colt .45. the others at my side with tommy gun and another automatic. the germans just stared at us. we were a peculiar and frightening sight, bearded with unkept hair. for what seemed like an age, we stood there and looked at each other in complete silence. i then said, good evening. at that a young german arose,at moved slowly backyards. b i shot him. turned and fire at another some six feet away. the room was by now pandemonium. then they barricaded the doors, they rolled in hand grenades and barricaded the doors. at least 30 people were killed, what even sterling was shocked by what he called a callous execution in cold blood.d. paddy maine was really in some

way as kind of trained killer. but alongside people like maine were others no less brave but different kind of mash sal bent. one of the my favorites in this story, frazier mccluskey, call himself the parachute padre. he was in first chapter of sas. he took part in all ofofhe nev assignments. he never carried a gun. he had a moral force that had great impact on the regiment. life expectancy in the early sas was very short. having planted bombs they had to escape. as sun would come up, any surviving planes from the airfields would then to hunting for the sas. this al pauling game of --cat as appalling game of cat-and-mouse played in the desert. this is last photograph of

lewis, attacked on christmas eve in 1941. he was killed by a stuebe that which blew his leg off and he bled to death. he was buried in the western desert. no one found his names. the l detachment in sas. sterling said the l stood for learner. l detachment was mindful of their own drama. they looked, dressed, considerable extent acted the part of swashbuckling desert warriors. they took the cue from the first world war, from lawrence of rabe yaw, his romantic take on war. everyone wore beards like this. the cover of rogue heroes, it shows six soldiers just about to go into battle. i always thought it looks exactly like a rock band preparing to go on stage. they knew exactly the impact they were having because theirs

was not just military effect, it was morale effect. they were under strict orders never to boast about their exploits but they never really needed to because others boasted for them. the exploits of the sas quickly became the stuff of myth and legend. the s they inflicted huge damage on axis air power. they sapped german and it willian morale, tied up enemy soldiers defending the airfields who would be deployed on the front line n his diary rommel wrote that the sas had wreaked considerable havoc. that sterling's men caused more damage to us than any other unit. there were a few people who understood the importance of military drama better than winston churchill. you see him here with his son, randolph, a figure who is almost been completely lost to history but who plays a very important part in the sas story.

randolph was a most unlikely soldier. he was extremely overweight, and in fact he sterling always joked it was hard to push him through the hole in the aircraft side to get him to parachute butut sterling -- randolph churchhill was journalist. like many journalists he had a pretty vivid imagination. sterling worked out if he could get randolph involved in the sas project, there was high probability randall would tell the father and insure the future of the sas because it was in real trouble. so he invited randolph to take part in one of the least successful not just of the north african campaign but of the entire war and it was culled operation bigamy. the plan was very simple. of sterling decided he would convert a staff car to look like a german vehicle. they called it the blitz buggy. the idea was very simple.

they would drive into occupied benghazi, seething with italian and american troops. they would go down to the dock. they would inflate inflatable kayaks, paddle out to the shipping moored in the dock and blow it up with mines and sing all the ships to prevent the port of benghazi to prevent any shipping supplies coming in. it was simple idea. you see them about to set off in the blitz buggy. a key figure had to be brought along in this was fits roy mcclain. fits roy was brought along because fitzroy could speak italian and guard posts were manned by italians. he could speak italian but he learned studying italian of studying renaissance art. it was 15th century recoco italian. as they approached the first italian check point, he

addressed this astonished italian in astonished dante. pretty style will open yonder barrier so my companions come with. i think he was so astonished he threw open the barrier and they drove in. go down to the dock and discover both inflatable kayaks were punctured. neither could be used. they called off the operation. there were four on the operation. as they were marching out of harbor, they realized instead of four they had become six because two italian soldiers obviously thinking that some kind of weird military parade was taking place in the military parade joined. this was only time in the war that allied and axis soldiers marched together in perfectct harmony.

fitzroy was high and dressed down it italian guard had done, saying there could be british saboteurs all over the place and you're all fired. as i say this was, the operation was a total failure. had no impact on the war, except as planned randolph did indeed write it up in series of wonderfully vivid letters he sent to his father. that insured the future of thehh sas.s. churchhill was taken by this warfare. he loved swashbucklers. he was at a dinner party in cairo on his way to see stalin when he met sterling. sterling enchanted him with stories what they were up to. the very next day, this is in the archive, churchhill's secretary sent a note to the secretary tell me what the sas is b sterling replied with a blueprint for what special forces could be. it was power grab. vastly expand the size of the sas, put me, david sterling inside of it.

what you see in this document is really is kind of a blueprint for what all special forces thereafter really became. it was a rather brilliant, brilliant idea. and it worked. it insured that the sas future was safe. very quickly want to tell you, the sas by this point developed techniques of desert survival. they could hang out in the desert for long periods, dug into the 45 desert encampments. as i say life expectancy was very short. ii want to tell you a story abot a man jamessed jack who represents a particular kind of bravery. he was trying to mine the railroad at brook, in 1941, 42, separated from his unit. he was completely on his own separated from his unit. he could sure rin der to the

germans or walk back 143 miles to the desert. he chose the latter course. he had no water. he had a resent tick call. on the second day he began to drink his own urine, became steadily more concentrated as he trudged through the disearth. on the third day his feet businessterred and crack.. on the four day his tongue swolled up.n on the fifth day he began to hallucinate. on the fifth day he saw a convoo of jeeps, he noticed they were sas. he is set fire to his shirt and they drove away across the horizon and disappeared. he trudged on, covered 135 miles. he got to the desert encampment. there are series of photographs with his feet bandaged. sterling, believed that a week after silito completely recovered from the experience. which is not true, actually.

i think he never recovered from it. the second battle of el al la main, you see the commander general montgomery that was a turning point for the war. he didn't like what sterling was up to. he said the boy sterling was mad, quite, quite mad. in war there is always a place for mad people. they began to lose a lot of men, the sas, because of war. the reason to do this because of a spy. the sas was infiltrated by a man who was an italian, he was s recruited by italian military intelligence. he was a committed fascist. one of the reasons why the sas lost so many men, a lot ofwi positions were betrayed by theodore skirts was captured at the end of the war, who was only british soldier tried and executed for treason.

with the end of the war in the desert the refocus was in europe. the sas was deeply involved in retaking italy and fight for occupied france but they were no longer under the command of david sterling.e sterling was captured in the very last operation, the last sas operation in the desert war. spent rest of the war, trying and failing to escape from various prisons and war camps. the unit became under the command of paddy maine. the war enter ad differentof phase. hitler by this point passed something called the commando order. it was a direct response to what the sas was doing. what it did was effectively called for all captured sas personnel to be executed immediately and without trial. dozens, scores, of asa soldiers were murdered by the sas.rd

in the final stage of the war it was vastly expanded. it played a vital role in d-day, parachuting behind the lines. really trying to prevent the panzer divisions from the south moving north to reinforce the normandy bridgehead. sas troops were amongst the first to enter bergin bell son, concentration camp. a scene of unbelievable horror greeted them there. there was a extraordinary moment, you remember red sick kings, the boxer, he began to take the law into his own hands. he beat up a german officer. he said no, we must arrest all the people. they must be put on trial. it was simple moment. the sas could have executed every single one of the ss soldiers. instead they sided they should be put on trial. it's a little spark of humanitys what was otherwise unbelievablya

brutal war. sorry that photograph you saw was commandant under arrest who was then tried and executed. the sas idea expanded hugely after the war. it spread to france, to belgium, australia, new zealand and most importantly to this country. u.s. delta force was directly modeled on the sas idea and the ideas that sterling came up with back in 1941 are still really the principles on which special forces operate today and they are as important today as they have ever been, arguably more important than they have ever been. interestingly the other day thee u.s. defense secretary said all special forces operating in syria, we want isis never to know who is coming through the window next. that is a very similar description to the way that veri sterling approached this war. to finish, many things came to

me while writing this book but one of the things perhaps above all, war, we have an idea of the second world war, it is written often in black and white. there are heroes and villains. there are good and bad people. there was a right side to be on and a wrong side to be on. i have completely convinced writing in this area war is painted in shades of gray. good people do bad things by mistake or not by mistake. paddy maine was not a bad man but he was a killer. there are heroes on the other side too. i wrestled with hero because i wasn't sure that i -- some of these men were incredibly heroic but war itself is not heroic. war itself is incredibly nasty. nobody comes out of the story glorified but yet, it raises the question that i hope all good history raises, which is what would you do?st one final story i will tell you about which is about a man called sutton who parachuted in

occupied france right at the end of the war. he was a young man who was a signaler. he landed with three other companions. the other three were executed. they were all captured immediately and the other three were killed immediately but hetl survived. he told of this story after the war he survived.an he was captured and escaped and fought off. it was the problem with this story i don't think it was true. the truth is that sutton actually, this became clear at the trials after the war of the people who had captured him, it is pretty clear that suttonoplea cooperated. he agreed to work with the germans, not quite clear how much he did but he may have given locations of parachute landing drops. when i read this account i was horrified. i thought, well i should really condemn this man but actually i couldn't bring myself so -- to do that, i'm not at all sure i wouldn't have done the same

thing in that circumstance,thatw given the short being shot on sight, buried in shallow graph, i might save my skin, feeding disinformation. i don't know i wouldn't have done the same thing. i do know i would have not volunteered to parachute in occupied france in the first place. [laughter]. so i guess my question, i will end with this thought, what would you do? thank you very much indeed. [applause] >> thank you. we certainly have time for some questions. what time did we wind up? haven't to the very long, i'm afraid. i've over run. please ask any questions about this or any other subject? yes, sir? >> thank you very much. i love all of your work. >> thank you. two questions, one about rogue heroes. you brought that sew alive.

i will state the question quickly. did they think they would be asi accepted by archaically-minded british military as they were? you did a great job with that too? and on operation -- did you have access to the same kind of archival materials for the book essentially and even more secret undertaking? >> the answer to the first question, no they did not expect to be accepted and sterling was in constant battle with thee higher brass, who he referred to midlevels of british military bureaucracy as layer upon layer of fossilizeed s. it was a phrase he used repeatedly and used in writings. they knew what he was talking about. he didn't expect to survive. it was amazing they did. it survived with a certain amount of subterfuge.

sterling gotten away with it. tl was only one running a private army. the operation mincemeat, preceded sicilian invasion and bizarre, wonderful story, using a dead body to ferry effectively lies to the german high commandy yes i was incredibly luck which with that one, because mi5 happened to release their archives. it was an mi5 operation. mi5 is equivalent of the fbi. they are internal security operation. they were running because of the reasons quite complicated. mi5 released them otherwise i would be out of job so they do me proud. thank you. yes, sir? >> you said sterling spent rest of the war trying to escape. what happened after the war? >> his after the war story like a lot of soldiers is sad one. many of these people were men who thrived in war but suffered in peace.

sterling never found a point to his life after the war. it was so exciting, he was so young, he achieved so much, the sas was disbanded after the war and reforred a year later. but by that point sterling was long out of the army. many of them lived very sad after lives. they never adjusted to peacetime conditions. paddy maine was another one. died incredibly young. took to the drink. drove his car into a lamppost. i've never been sure whether he did that intentionally or not. sterling's after the life, people who see vivid action of that sort was never quite the same again. yes, ma'am. >> you mentioned cardboard boxes full of archival materials you worked with. you probably worked with tons and tons of other material afterwards. how much background research do you feel yourself having to do? when did you finally say, okay, enough, now get to work?

that is a lovely question. the answer i have never quite get to the moment i ever done enough. the deadline i hear crunching behind me. i realized i have to stop.y the sas were wonderfully cooperative about this. . . be elements of stories that they would want to take out that the only thing they wanted to take out was a graphic description of the death of one soldier and they wanted to take that out because it was going to upset the family and i can completely understand that. people could not have been written without the active presentation of the sas. whether they will allow me to do a sequel, i strongly doubt because often we end up in even worst territory.

>> how important do you think the united states and great britain is for world security today. >> wow. that's a question i could do a lot more than two minutes on. it is still the strongest and most important of the relationships, particularly in an era of win it signals intelligence which was so important during the second world war. it's absolutely vital in the relationship between tch q which is our equivalent in britain, absolutely vital. i would argue it's probably never been more special or more important. and that is true of intelligence generally. we imagine, don't we, that somehow war has moved on, but actually human intelligence are absolutely the core of all of our freedoms and have been for very long time. esdies and gentlemen, thank you very much.

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