this is booktv on c-span2, live coverage. [applause] [applause]. and dr. rice is going to be interviewed for us by one of the best interviewers i know who has his own show on bloomberg national book shares r

mister david rubenstein. please welcome both of them. and thanks enjoy.th thanks for being here.out of you have now been and of the on of the government for about nine years before we get into your new book on democracy tell us what you had been doing since you left government. your teaching at stanford and what else. i have the digression into washington. i have actually been doing this since i was 25 years old. i had turn to sanford.ign po

they curse -- i cursed -- i teach a course at american policy. i've been able to do a little bit of work at the private sector. i've been practicing a lot more in the private sector. that is really a great love and i'm trying to include my golf handicap. you are one of the first two women to be elected to the augusta national golf club. was an honor that you were expecting to get. a good friend who was a member of augustine held -- told me that i was being invited to join augusta i was just there dumbfounded. i was completely taken by surprise.cap? what is your handicap i won't tell anybody. it is not really a state secret.

for those of you who are golfers there is something called an index and you take that index and you go to different courses and depending on the difficulty of the course you determine the hitting cap.>> h did you ever play with president george w. bush. a number of occasions. you have to almost wonder about that. you did trying to be a classical musical pianist. at the kennedy center for which you are such a great leader.

at least once a year i play a concert with a professional course and we do a benefit for a charity.the i am a great believer. like everybody we need stem, science and technology. but i'm also a great believerar that we need an arts. i want to focus on your book. but some people who may not know you are born and grew up in birmingham. it was a segregated south. when you are growing up how long did it take before you realize you are not being the same as everybody else.ement su it was the most segregated city in the country at the time. it was a place where the police commissioner was well-known for his brutality

and it didn't take long to know that your parents were a little bit embarrassed because they can it take you to a restaurant or movie theater they were never people who let us with the full community that we grew up in that was mostly school teachers. my parents were educated others they never let us feel that we are victims. when you consider yourself a victim you've lost control. they also said juergen have to be twice as good didn't say that as a man of -- matter of debate about education was supposed to be your armor against presidents. but the very first time that i really came home i went to see santa claus and you know how it works you take the little kid and santa claus puts that kid on the knee and he wasthe taking kids and putting him on

the knee and then holding the black kids out here. my father who was a former football player angelina if he does that to condoleezza i'm going to pull all that stuff off of him and expose him that the cracker that he is.ere's the little girl and you are five. and it is santa claus daddy. they must have read the father's body language. he said little girls what would you like for christmas. nose the first time i thought this is really terrible. you have an unusual first name.wh where that name come from. condoleezza is my mother's attempt to angle five. in italian it means which

suite -- with sweetness. that's what it meant. her name was angelina. i think that she wanted an italian musical term. and she first thought aboutt that that that meant walking slowly.t. allegra meant fast. and it definitely wasn't good. you graduated phi beta kappa.e you did not get them on the cheering there. i loved love to football. are you kidding. so then he went back to the university of denver and you

have a phd and then you were recruited to sanford. her specialty was soviet affairs. why did you happen to pick that.troit i was a failed music major. i learned very young. about the end of myself my suffering in college i went to the aspen music festival school. they have taken that flight. i'm about to end up playing piano bars somewhere. and so i wandered back no major and i took class in international politics. all this and i knew what i wanted to be. that tip to me then into as a

international politics as a major and ultimately a degreeee. in that story that her father once said that his favorite student with you.hip and she was surprised that you had been the student. see starting your academic career and ultimately you got involved in the george herbertus walker bush foundation.secu it's a really important story because there is a notion that we have that i got there on my own. but nobody gets her on their own. for me i've been national security advisor to gerald ford came up to give a talk and it was i was a second-year professor at stanford. he got to know me and he said i want to get to know you better. i was numb for my work on the

soviet union of all things. he really mentored me into the field.ed me i often say there is another lesson in that. we also say the role models and mentors who look like you. stil instead my role model in indy my mentors were white men. those were are the people thatte dominated my field.entors j your mentors just head to be people who believe in you.t: so so he have to get a job there. he asked him to be the national security advisor. he said he said the fellow gerber shop is doing some

interesting things in the president will need someone to help them sort it out.and as get to be the soviet be specialist at the end of the cold war. i do speak russian. after that administration was over you back. and then when george w. bush was running for president how did you get involved in that., i'm very happy applicanthappy academic. use them my son is think about running thinking about running for president. after that he or asks me to organize it's his foreign-policy campaign. we surprised that he ask you to be that by the time we got

to his election i figured i would was go into thein administration international security advisor had been on this .-dot before it seemed like a natural thing to do. women have served as nationalou security advisor before you. >> none. will talk about this book. why did you feel compelled to write a book about democracy. it is in some ways and expression of my own life i i'm a firm believer that there is no other system that affords the kind of dignityve t that they place to be able to be free from the secret police at night.yo to worship as you please and

most important of those that doesn't govern you to ask for your consent. my parents and relatives were there. but still fundamentally believed in this american democracy. he picked me up from school and it was election day. i was six years old or so. i know in my own 6-year-old way six-year-old wife that this man was not good.so there was long lines of people going into vote. of all these people about the man can't possibly win. i said to him my do theyey bother.

they know that one day that but will matter. they never forgot that. that of the extraordinaryed story of the united states of america on the constitution that was given to america by its founders.try bo the words about the quality and yet a country born with a birth defect of slavery to have the same constitution that have once counted in the compromise would be the same constitution for which i would take the oath of office under the portrait of benjamin franklin. sworn in by jewish woman on that to me is a story of democracy. you point on the book that you are african-american but actually 40% of your bloodline

is white. something other. in birmingham the young girls that were killed in the bombing where they people that you knew. it was pretty small.he and the mayor and one of the four girls killed in the baptist church bombing in september of 63 have been in my father's kindergarten. there is a picture of my father giving her her kindergarten diploma her father was the photographer at everybody's wedding. and so yes i remember him saying that monday when they went back to school he just looked at the empty chair and

just quite -- quite -- cried. about what they could do to protect me. but no we stayed there in birmingham began to change. again it is a story oftu democracy that same constitution would be used by the naacp starting on the way back to describe it in the book. from 1937. and they would sit there on friday morning and they would decide what cases they were going to take to try to break down segregation and inequality. and that would eventually end up in a civil rights act of 1964. in the first time that my parents and i could go to a restaurant.

we have all dressed up. and we went to this hotel for dinner and i remember thee people kind of looking up from their food and then maybe realizing that now it was okay. and we have dinner. you point out that we have a birth defect of slavery but when slavery was ended in 1865 we went to jim crow law so how do you as an african-american woman rationalize what our country did after the civil rights amendments occurred in the constitution. we went through a hundred years or so of discrimination. system how do heidi say it's such a wonderful system. howdy rationalize that. there is no perfect system that human beings have ever created. and yet because of the institutions that we were there. independent judiciary slowly

but surely the life of the descendents would be one i was w very institution.s when when others took on the struggle the very dear mentor of mine. ameri they weren't were asking america to be something else they were saying america be what you say you are.a much s you're in a much stronger position when you have those institutions and place and you can appeal to those institutions. so in any system the bringing of rights to people is a difficult and sticky and hard process in ours has been extra only hard extremely hard but i look at how far we have come we've actually done better than i can think of any place in the world has done it. so today you are verymination accomplished person. do you feel any discrimination

anywhere in the world. i always say the senior professor at stanford. i feel very strongly that i am able to achieve what i want to achieve and i try to tell my students to feel the same way. then i have -- someone else has control of my life. we all know that there is great inequality in our society and we know that our great nationalists doesn't matter where you came from in matters where you're going you can do great things. it is not true for all of our people. so our goal and job as citizens in this democracy has to be the institutions that

they deliver on that promise. not to shun them because it's still the best option for getting there. my mother was only 61 years old. i was 30 when she died. but she did get to see me as a professor at stanford.ve her i gave her my very first book which was not a new york times best seller. i had been my dissertation. in case you don't notice it actually exists. i gave her the book so she saw me become a professor. you know the pressure being an only child. why i'm that is why ms sports fanatic. father'

when you aren't only child you have to satisfy both. you talk about the soviet union and russia. and your obviously subject a great deal of that.t d democracy broke out in russia and weekly with gorbachev. why did it disappear from russia. explana one thing i seek to do in thisou book is to dismiss one of the explanations that you sometimes get about russia. they don't have the right dna for democracy. i just don't believe that there are any people on the place of the earth who aren'tle capable of democracy. we have it used cultural arguments so that germans who were supposed to be

marshaled. of course you have celtic korea and japan. they were tribal. c of course you can is going to a very interesting point of time. of course now. they have colombia. columbia. and by the way african-americans and childlike like to care about their things called the book. we've have a black president.eca we have attorney general. we black as secretary of state. i just relet reject the cultural argument. we get all the time. but really what the story is's s the story of the failure of institutions to take hold under enormous pressure if you think about the collapse of the soviet union anything about the kind of effort to build capitalism 50% of the c

russian population fell into poverty practically overnight.t. the country broke apart overnight and unfortunately the first president who i have admired for a lot of reasons instead of strengthening the institution and working through them he starts to live by decree. he weakens the legislature. now that presidency under forces -- boris yeltsin is one thing. that same very strong presidency the russian failure is a story of institutions. you cannot depend on a single person. you would confuse him. i know him pretty well..

he was learning english from the time we came about. i would chitchat with him in russian but he really kind of liked me at the beginning i think because i was a rush nest. but i remember once sitting with him towards the end of my time and he said russia has only been great when it was ruled by greatness. like peter the great. you want to say and you mean vladimir the great. and the secretary of state you can't do that. that would be rid but in fact he thinks he is reuniting the russian people and that instinct has let him to destroy all of the kind ofim to >>t:itutional strength. in the chance of him voluntarily stepping down is slim.

the thing about regimes like that is there's all levels. you don't know that they are brittle until something happens. the only district that vladimir putin did not win in the fraudulent election was moscow. that tells you something about how he is viewed he's viewed in the city. let's talk about another country that joins russia.k sta democracy didn't break out and pull it. what do you think the state of democracy is in poland today. it is a story that we should try to emulate having institutions in place with what i call the democratic opening comes. solidarity and nation wide labor unions. have actually been underground from the declaration of martial arts. it had been sustained by the

vatican when the afl cio which was that labor union.ting t when they come to power in eastern europe breaks free poland already have the institutional infrastructure in place so that it was easier in poland than almost any place else. anyplace else. but now what we are seen in poland is that it is still a young democracy it has for the first time a very strong centralized executive you are seen an erosion of the independent judiciary and people are fighting back. civil society is immobilized on social media. with the law and justice party and the president actually ended up having to veto a lot

that he had sponsored that would have gone a long way to undo the judiciary. the next write about is ukraine. what would you say the state of democracy is in ukraineoc now. with a very watchful and assertive native in the process of taking your territory and making in the eastern half of your countryry unstable it's kind of hard to build democracy. but they have made some progress the president now has launched an anti- crump should campaign.n one of the great checks of democracy.e are and they have made a good move. there are some young people there in the legislature that have determined to deliver democracy.

and you don't read much about it in the eastern ukraine. they are supported by the russian forces are causing all kinds of problems.an democ it's always kind of on a nice edge. that is something to celebrate. as long as they are in charge of russia. you don't see eastern ukraine going although it back to ukraine. i think it's can be veryba hard. here is one point i would like to make. one of the reasons i want to write this book was to talk about the role they can play in supporting democracy with a tendency those were extremely

stressful situations where we have a security problem and later on have it helped build democracy. if you think about the way that we dealt with the baltic state. it does not you stamped it with that. we could not do anything aboutou the fact that they have forcefully went into the baltic states. even if we can't do anything t about it.and

you mentioned at iraq and afghanistan. you want to talk about the middle east.ty i was a national security advisor in 911.9/ i was at my desk i got him on the phone and he said that is a strange accident. keep me informed. a few minutes later i was having my staff meeting and somebody handed me a note that said the second plane had hit the world trade center. i went into the situation room to try to reach the national security person. he was in a meeting at the organization of american states. he have gone already to bunker. his phone is just ring and ring.

about that time. you have got to get to a bunker. they are flying into buildings. when the secret service want to escort you they don't actually excoriate. they can to pick you up and the carry. you cannot come back here.d neve american security would never be the same. it is the longest war.s, you do you see any solution near term. i have always said the point that we have to get to somehow in afghanistan they were able to prevent the taliban from an

existential threat against government. yet the remnants of the taliban that would be hit-and-run.f but as i had been able to carry out bolder attacks from the capital even in the international you have to wonder how will we are doing in getting to that place off stability i think the decision by the president and secretary matus to try to really stabilize the military situation is one that i support. it's a really big part of our problem. they aren't really convinced that a stable afghanistan is in their interests.and we are talking about democracy.the fifth

during september 11. but it is at least a place now where girls go to school in large numbers it is a place now where women are not beatens in a soccer stadium that was given to the taliban by the un is a place where men are not last because they don't wear beards and it is not a place that harbors terrorists. i think we could have some achievements but yes i'm concerned. do you think we have made progress there and what he think it really went wrong. it did not quite go the way you thought it would.u i talk about the iraqi case. i laid out several different areas of what thehe circumstances are when the democratic opening comes. you've institutions in place.yoa

or columbia where you have institutions that were weakha but were there. the other situation is when you've had a personality where everything had been at the service of that leader. there are no institutions to think of where we thought underneath them.ght undeth and so the distance betweenpeop people's desire not that they had overthrown the dictators.reh in the institutions there to channel all of those things. you how much time. i really in the book that we made a lot of mistakes and we undervalued the potential for the tribe to play an important role we do can understand the tribe and when we got back i

don't think we fully understand the implications. of the army. the one thing i would like to say about that. we do not go to iraq to bring democracy to iraq. that is an urban legend. it doesn't have the benefit of being true.we we thought we have a security problem i would never say that. he is a male american military force to bring democracy for that matter. the but once you've overthrown the dictator. a lot of bloodshed lives lost.

you're beginning to see that t they do have some mechanic institutions. ava prime minister who is accountable to them. they are not shot and streets. in streets. you do not had mass waves of what they put people in. the big challenge is can they hold together with the kurds who for wrong -- long time i w wanted to be an independentnd people.y have they do have an institutions that i think can help them.. the eric strict spring was supposed to produce that. talk about syria. they don't seem to be happy having democracy anytime soon. it is unfortunately it is going to be hard to get them out of power.

eventually if you have to go it's can have to be the russians to make that decision. the rest of the middle east i'm not ready to give up ont fid the middle east finding its way towards democratic institutions. we are very impatient with people when they're trying to find their way to democracy. they just don't get it. i look at all of those muslim b but brotherhood. we forget our own history is a pretty long one in a tough one. i would say use the polish example. there are entrepreneurs who are people you might buildtherer other democracy. tunisia is an example of where a national labor union into

women's civil society groups have actually managed to bring about something that looks like i'm making for democracy. i'm not ready to give up on democracy just yet.pt, has there been a move towards more democracy. the egyptian military rulers underneath again their civil society groups that we ought to be supporting to try to help. what happens in the middle east is that at the moment when you have a chance for a democratic opening thehe strongest institutions are often the radical islamic. it's not an accident. it's because leaders like that destroyed the foundation of more liberals and institutions who might have been a

foundation of democracy. but they did not destroy the radical islamic who organize them. they were the best organized when elections came. we have to help more liberal forces be organized. on the middle east israel. there is either a one state solution or two state solution. if you have a one state solution do you think you can really had democracy. >> i think for israel to remain a democratic jewish state and has has to have a democratic palestinian state. i am a believer in the two state solution. eventually we will have to get there.nsel you don't think that democracy would break out there. they have varying degrees.

in varying degrees of liberalism towards the merit of religion and politics but some interesting things areol happening there. even in a place like saudi arabia.abia. they have have a generational shift.nd in the majority of the people oh studied in universities built by the king our women. they will find out. you point out that a government cannot actually have some good democratic features. in you site for example

singapore. what do you admire about singapore. first of all it's very small. what i really say is when people say authoritarians are sometimes better. they have the largest country in the world and singapore.tr one of the smallest. and singapore was fortunate. it have all wise man leader it was at a time when democratic values were not very obvious the problem with that theory is he better hope the next one is benign and that his son after him is benign. you always get lucky. we hold democracies to higher standards than we dord authoritarian.

so the idea authoritarians are better because they deliver for their people.that singapore delivered but there are so many authoritarians that we hold democracy to higher standards. i will say something but china there also about to have an interesting test. china's economy grew rapidly but they did it with heavyvy exports in the low cost of labor provider they did it and with the command economy with economic growth under that model anymore.

when you free up market sources there's a mismatch between those market forces in the top down authority. how much that can be for you have a class of those.cup lo their reported rights. not because someone was out protesting but because a person would find that a party leader would seize their land. they have no courts to go to.wo even chinese leaders will save we need independent courts.does how long is it before independent courts become an independent judiciary. ag are starting to get a distance in the institutional landscape in china and i wille tell you one other story. i gave a lecture at the great university and the college ofat

the cross between harvard and stanford. the question blew me away.th the questions were i'm an engineer why do i need to take literature.s don' when you do if your parents are like the major that you chose. they are questioning in this way. i think there are a lot of terms you did not write about it in your book i can't helpp but ask you about another problem.h, tha if you were advising the president today would you tell

him to do about north korea. when i was secretary we try toto negotiate to the nuclear eyes the country. ever since they had been there on improving their bomb designed and increasing the range of their delivery systems. no american president can tolerate a somewhat unhinged north korean leader. if he is not crazy he is reckless. he killed it his half-brother. i don't think any americanwi president can tolerate that leader with a the capacity to

reach the united states.they a what it ministration is trying to do. is they are painting a very bleak picture for the chinese. it's the only country with any real leverage. the chinese had never been willing to use that leverage fully. and then they would haveuld unstable law and order and then they would have the refugee. but what the administration is saying to them is your choice now is either talk about the north korean problem or we do something about it. the military solutions here are not very pretty. if it came near guam would we still have to wait for the chinese to do something. i thing at some point the american president and i'm not inside so i don't know what he's been told about how long he has. but at some point if you're threatening guam in your

firing missiles over japan we are getting pretty close to that. i will note that when kim jong-il came and said he was going to attack guam the chinese loved to talk to him. he came back and said he would not a 12 -- attack guam. your book covers to other parts of the world.l cover let me ask you about south africa. you met with mandela and why do what he think democracy has not worked as well after that as it was expected.i do he was a remarkable man. i don't think i've ever met anybody was more inspired -- inspired by. in fact i said there. why did you not run for another term.brothers i wanted my african brothers

to know it was okay to step down. on a continent that had so many statements. with the story of institutions. it was a single party system. s somehow mandela's great authority was never transferred into institutions which could then survive him. and they had had considerable trouble since but the institutions are still there. it's just that it's been hard to really deliver. the first presidents matter.'t n i don't know how many of you think that. it's really a great show.. it becomes very clear that we got lucky. that the particular combination that we have in many places have not been that fortunate. you talk about columbia and how democracy has made

progress there. with the 60s and the 70s are gone. 60s what happened to them.nezuel you can get really bad leader who does not get checked by those around him the oil curse. the price of oil went to hundred $47 per barrel. it empowered people who then tried to buy elections. across latin america and heel single-handedly step-by-step destroyed all of the important institutions and the opposition who has succeeded i hope this is one for the

american states that need to be all over it is sad to see. [applause]. you have to know your dna. yo and i was on the campaign trail i will never forget. we would go to five campaign events.go and there are people who draw energy from the process. i don't so much. muc and i have never liked politics. i do love policy.

my calling is what i do. i love being a professor. i love teaching millenials. they are a challenge. they are wonderful. they come to me and say i want to be a leader. let's talk about what you're going to learn and now so someone will follow you and then my other favorite isi want about my first job to be meaningful. your first job will not be meaningful. someone will pay you to do it for the first time. i have my work cut out for me. if you don't want to run for office. you should never try to go home again. i have an amazing alignment of the stars i was told with the leaders. we grew up together.

when he was just leaving the governor ship of texas. trust it was a time for the country and i have great admiration for people in public service. i don't think we admire enough people who do public service. it's hard. i tried so hard to not let them be cynical. cynic the secretary of state the foreign service and the civil service and the people that work in the service department.0 the more than 30,000 foreigners. there are some of the most dedicated people you will ever find. there is nothing like getting off of the plane. and thinking what can i do.

when you step down you handed the reins over. to another woman. what was it like metal and poland it had been 16 years. we were saying i don't know maybe well had to do affirmative action here. a it was great.it was g and it has a nice transition. the dean's is george schultz. he is his 27 years old. i will tell you a little story. a birthday party not too long ago.

and the two of them did 20 minutes walk around the world no notes i don't know that it was hoping it was something at the water at the statepi department. as i remember george schultz said something. zero to be 94 again. his point of view. henry was still a promising young man. as you look back on yourill career which is extraordinary what would you say you are most proud of. see. >> with the caveat that history takes a long time to judge i think i'm most grateful that we set up for the rights of people to live in freedom. i don't there was a lot of criticism and some of it was totally justified about the freedom agenda.t in declaring that america to

work hard so that no one well live in tierney. but i i think america is at its best the highest calling c when it leads in power in principle.e the rights that we enjoy are indeed universal and that they are universal there are no people for whom nation and be secured. i'm very grateful that we were able to do that. when i think back on some of my travels it was always when it was about people in a couple things stick out in particular. a little boy said you are the lady from the united stateslkedu and i said yes.. i am. and people ask me what was it like being a woman representing the united states

in the united states. and once where he really sticks in my mind there. i have a very difficult meeting with the shiite clerk. who couldn't touch me because i was a woman outside of his family. at the end of the meeting he said we do me a favor sharp. my 13 euros grade not much is you on television and she loves you. they are coming to the states would you meet them.in on that day this little 13-year-old girl comes in and it pink t-shirt that says princess. she walks up to me and says i want before and ministered also. there was something in that moment. the very conservative grandfather beamed. littl this progress that we try to bring through democracy and

through justice and equality it's a long road. people have travel that road for a long time america traveled for a very long time. and were still working on. so the thing i'm most grateful for is that even with our own troubles here in the united states we stood up for the proposition that everyone should live in freedom.an i want to recommend to everybody here. [applause].nk you and i want to thank you for your service to our country for many years. thank you.

the voices from the road recently visited the national festival here in washington where we ask attendees what is on the reading list. >> i am with the washington post. i use actually work at c-span. they are great folks over there. i finished our home going which is a great generational story. right after that i finished a new book. it is inspired and has an old hollywood star. definitely check it this two books out. and at c-span.

i just finished a book and i was very fascinated about his background growing up. and very understanding with what his creations were. and then right now also i just finish that book. and i'm reading another book is very informative but it uses a lot of comedy took splint what's going on down in the south. what they were called the liberal rednecks manifesto. just really wanted to be a more educated about their experiences. a lot of reading. i am old. this is really freaking me out. all that's happening in the world. i'm back to comfort reading.

penelope its fitzgerald, jane austen. that's it. i'm branching out. i'm into contemporary right now. .. so many of us even if we wanted to we don't understand.

progressive policy institute senior fellow offers his outlook on the future of public education in his book reinventing america's schools. he's interviewed by chester finn, senio senior fellow and president emeritus of the institute. >> host: david, this book is such a treat. not only are we observing the 25th anniversary of the first charters: america that we are the kind of magnum opus that tells everything we wanted to know about charter schools and it may be a bit of an exaggeration