your users and shower them with love. they didn't have many users but the ones they had were here in new york and didn't think about doing that, coming to visit the users here and sat with them for hours on expend watched them use their product and didn't know how to post photos very well, they didn't mow how to write listings in a way that made them appealing so they just sat with them and helped them merchandise their listings in a better way and dress them up and gussy them up a little bit and doing that they saw their numbers after a few weeks double. from a very low base but that turns the numbered around. it wag still a very long journey but that is what sort of -- that's when the kind of turning point hit. >> video game developer, online bullying victim and ceo of the crash override network, zoe quinn, discussions her book, crash overright. that's some language that some may find offensive.

[inaudible conversations] >> hi, everybody. -thank you for being here. i'm lilly myer, the events manager at politics and prose. i'm glad you all came. first a few things before we get started. in case you missed the sign, this weekend is a member sale. all books or 20% off if you're a member. you're not a member, it's a great way to support your local indy book store and get 25% off and the other way to support your local book store is attend a evens. in september we're hosting salmon rushdie. i hope you'll join us and for

those who have never joined us for an event before, a couple notes how things work. she'ing speak and then take questions and then sign books right here. so, when the eventes over, please fold upper chair, the book severalled will thank you very much, and lean it against any shelf and then go to he check out there and come back here to get it signed. for q & a, we're him inning in -- c-span is him inning so please ask your questions into the audience mic right there. i'm done pointing now, promise. make sure your question is a question. so lot of people can ask questions elm zoe quince one of the industry's most critically acclaimedded indy developer. she is also one of the world most courageous advocate ford victims of online abuse. with her grassroots organization, crash overright network and her own writing and speaking and just personal bravely she is an absolute hero

to anyone in the target of online hate. i'm not going to tell you about the attacks she had to face down because you know, you know about gamergate you know that in sow's are records it wills a flash point -- i'm sorry -- for the online hatred that helped put donald trump in the white house and zoe fought back against the it has and she won. she learned to protect herself and teach other people to protect themselves. it's an honor to have her at p & p and i'm glad you came to listen. [applause] >> thank you for that intro intro itch went the wrong way trying to get off to the stage so we're off to a good start. hi, and thank you for coming out and supporting crash override or the most depressing testimonial of all time. if you're not familiar with

gamergate, because -- even itch you are it was kind of a mess of miamis and jargon anyway so if you're internet savvy, what the hell is this? to give you sort of the tldr of it, i dated this other programmer on and off again most his off again for five months, and instead of just letting it go since it was kind of a crappy abusive relationship hi outsourced the abuse to the internet which is like kick startert but yelling at people you're mad at. and it ask escalate how i was secretly controlling the online gaming interest with shadowy makeouts. i'll take you into more -- but we'll come out on the shorter, i'll talk about subjected that are a little bit rough if you have been a survivor of domestic violence or probably just

someone who didn't have a good day on november 7th in general, so just fyi that's a thing. what happened needly happened immediately. knew there was something out there before i knew what it was because there were zed suddenly people yelling at me and like the a kid counting the distance of a storm with the thunder clap it was like that but with my phone notifications buzzing and they would buzz quicker and quicker and quicker until it was just luke i had to not look at it, and that first night i just all could die is numbly scroll don is a saw people construct this we're fiction how i was ruining gaming by existing, and having the gal to -- gall to make a game. that turned into threats of murder, rape, anything you can imagine, anything you would find in a fox news comment section.

and everybody that was even tangentially related and some people if haven't met have been targets as well. it was simultaneously the most personal and least personal thing in the entire world because, the attacks were extremely personal because it was about me and a sexualized version of my life an angry ex-crated be and i was a standin for anxiety people had about people that weren't liking likit existing in spaces they cared about. this went outside the gaming industry and was a flash point for the "alt-right" but these guys have been around forever. i say guys but it's everybody. when i was put on breitbart, things getting stair 'er and stormfront trying to recruit gamerred that were mad at me and that got very weird. i didn't -- still weird. it's like i don't know if you have ever read hitchhiker's

guide but the cloaking thing is someone else's thing. you park a spaceship on a planet because this tiesward and it's someone else's problem. doing the book is like trying to do my own autopsy. the threats were bad. people were talking about putting dead animals in the mail box and extending me pictures of my dad's house and calling my dead and in the and not knowing that would do when they actually got through because i didn't change my number for a few weeks and they seemed very confused when i answered. they were like, is this zoe quinn? and i'm like, yeah, you dialed my number. just hitting buttons randomly? oh, your phone number it on the internet. i'm like, uh-huh. they're like, oh, and then they panic and hang up or apologize. but i mean it's nothing else,

it's weird. my generation calls people, god. so, there was that component of it and it was hard to face other people that were targets as -- with a tenuous connection to me. the sadder part was seeing these institutions that were in name supposed be the sort of thing that is there to help, completely fumble, and fumble spectacularly and usually contribute to the problem. i had to deal with too many members of the press just simply reporting on the false accusation that i had -- if you actually look at what would have taken this to be true, had traveled back in time to sleep with a game reviewer for -- that worked for a web site i had already written for so obvious low could not have gotten that connection any other way, slept with him to get a review of my game that never existed, and the game is also free. and also why did i set my target

for not like "the new york times." basically i'm a time traveling ho is more or less what the chief accusation came down to, and is up there with the other accusations about the numerous people i have supposedly murdered, i'm a treasonous person that should be tried under the logan act which is funnive you know anything about that. and i am actually a vampire. there is some people that think i am actually a vampire. it's great. those are more fun. but seeing the fact that so many members of the media would just report on this instead of saying, she was a accused of having sex for reviews and then not following that up and just spreading the misinformation. you could finish the sentence and say that never happened. the never happened part seemed kind of important but who do i know i'm just a time traveling vampire ho. seeing big tech industries and people that i talked to that were in positions to help, that could press a biton and make stuff actually not suck, fork

hell, don't know about this, this like this death threat doesn't say what weapon they use use to kill you, so it's not actually a terms of service violation. we have to get back to shutting down anybody who posted against the olympics immediately. my bad. and unfortunately i just had to do something with law enforcement against my better judgment after they were brigading the irs with false reports of tax fraud too get me outauditted. thought i needed a paper trail. it was like a constant state of shock as finding out how many how much of this worked. intel pulled ads from a blog that had nothing to do if with any of this because somebody said, games are really broad and they're no one gamer identity anymore because they're too many people that play game out in and that's great. this was turned into this weird, they're saying gamers are dead. they're literally killing us now. it's like, no, that's a good thing that more -- whatever.

so major companies like intel and mercedes-benz and all of these miami who should know better were bending their knees. one thing to get mad at the baby that is driving your car. it's another thing to be mad at the person who gives them the key in the first displays not taking it away. and there's no shocking thing to me was like, while i do good to law enforcement, i knew things were bad that i didn't know how bad because i'm still like an easy victim for that system to support. i'm like a young are white woman, home run for them in terms of what they think a victim looks like, but even then still that systemic she was asking for and it didn't actually do it but she was asking for it. have you looked at her? and indogs to the fact i went up to get the restraining odd against miss ex-because he was talking about doing sequel, saying harassment is bad bus

here a few more people she payment have leapt with and look into these pavement i'm saying the number is hundred now. she cheated on me with hundred people. which is like who has the time? especially in five months. that's, like, impressive. i went up to this judge with a stack of legal documents, like this big, and i'm like, i watched this face as he -- they -- in civil court everyone is sitting around and they call your number and they go on to the next one. he got my big stack of -- these -- i had printed out so much stuff i actually brock my friend's printer. law enforcement doesn't know what to do with video either even though i had video and a lot of this happened with videos. and i just saw his, like, eye goes like this after a few pages and he is like, all right. what do you want in the to do here?

i'm like, i don't really know. i kind of thought that was your thing. and he had basically taken what i had season verbatim and written it as a special clause in rerestraining order and that is a really fucking bad in move. high, game delver who is shaking and freaked out and holding a stack of death threats can couple up with legal terms on the spot. i thought he would translate into legales or know anything and that was not the case. and that restraining order meant i was having court bat. withmy ex for two years, even though though re restraining order this maximum you can get in masts is one, it was still that full-time, plows another year of having to fight this thing. that was the opposite of what i wanted itch didn't want to see him anymore. regardlesses, i could feel a number of books with just the blow-by-blow ridiculous an neck totes of stuff that happened and especially since it's the internet and because it became the pop culture thing, like

there's so much -- it was like kind of hard to write best thaws it's right do i talk about the time that a first amendment attorney things his seem men is magic, spent five figures to follow me and talk about the time the disturbed lead singer ruined my breakfast. these things sound ridiculous when i say it out loud. powell home have a breakup so bad the u.n. has to get involved and helps usher in fascism. regardless, that's not what this book is. decided to write this book partially after a posting on twitter announced -- you should actually write that book, though. but mainly because i'm still an engineer at heart and when i have to do something over and over and over, i'm like can i automate this? it would be better. can i get a robot to do this for me? so, it seemed easier for me to

just put it all in dead tree format because if nothing else, it became so apparent to me that what happened to me was not at all uncommon, and, yes, how it blew up and the historical role it played is weird, but it's kind of like finding shit in your food at restaurant. i didn't know if i could swear. good. good, thank god. sorry, c-span. but it's like finding shit in your food at a restaurant. doesn't matter if it's a little bit or know there's shty in vs. if you eat an entire turd sandwich, you're not going back there i hear too many people saying what happened to me dish don't want to compare. it's like, no, any is bad. it should be zero, and what happened to me became this gigantic publish flash point and people say you're the only person i can talk to about what happened to me.

quickly -- wasn't until writing this book and talking with other people about it that it was pointed out that the a common theme any life is something doesn't exist i wish chested i make it instead of waiting for one to dot tar foe. don't know it that's because aim the doc of a mechanic but i'm thankful for that. the last court dated had the judge ended up telling me, if this is what -- i don't understand theirs whole internet thing. i'm like, but -- itch this is what it's like youy shoo just go offline. i'm like this i'm an independent game develop ever ex-you're asking know give on my career and he said on hi was out the door, find a new career. so i did. mother fucker. i start evidence grassrootses organization after seven emergencies of this dirk which i head been unable to go home. people were outside of my house waiting for me and you have to

play this nazi thing, just some edgy hot topic asshole or elliott roger because they sound the same online i. was tired of watching -- i'm still -- aim a game designer and think in systems. so the systemiic fall our was to obvious and to predictable that even early on when people were becoming targeted, we knew it would happen, we were -- i found their irc channels they were coordinating attackness because i was a shitty channeler when i was young. i know where this comes from, super hacktivism. i was like, let's get scientology when i was teenager. know the illegal shit helps and amoner toed and required it fork worths and got in front of the next tarring every time i could warned them in advance. you should lock down this, this and this, probably going to that could next. don't do this. let's fix you up good. and the turned into farmal a'sing that to help more people other than people who were targeted for a lose

association of maybe become being in a room with me much became crash override. how do we build the solution -- a solution? there's no one. and it's like, okay wishes have to make sure what we create account be used to abuse other people. that was a big component. stuff that was supposed to help is used against you. so it's like, okay, let's craft it around consent and involvement of the person targeted because that's the most important thing. the first thing hat happen you feel like you have lost control and nothing you can do better than to return some legal of control back to someone's life. so there's noun noh one -- there's no one size fits all. it doesn't matter if you want to hide, if you want to speak out, both of those are completely valid, and makes me a little bet upset when people say you're brave for fighting and i think i'm kind of disturb born and it's not brave to say fuck this and i'm out.

you look at your life and say do deserve better than this. so we figure out what this person's end goal was and then work backwards how to achieve this, and every time we found of ourselves every can the same conversations over and over again we other try to again do automation thing, write a guide, use the same tools used to make games to marrying a interactive check lift of locking down. it's so many panel don't understand when you're targeted it it's so much work. even just bagging and tagging if you want to do that, or filling out reports, it's work. and making that easier for people to do was super important and we found better success rates. here are small things you can do in a row. here's a number that goes up when you do it because our brains like that. and it's all here. you don't have to talk to another person whoa when you're probably freaked out and don't want to talk to anybody anymore. the big this we did was try to act as an intermediary between the giant institutions i was mad expect the people that were actually affected. people would say this is

happening to me here. i'm like have you've filled out a report? do you want action to be taken? they say, yes, i'm going to try to hustle out a contact because while the institutions were super broken, there were still people that whatnotted to do the right thing working within them. and anytime i could get movement because there's someone -- a working person in a broken system that could get stuff done, that did so much to help people get results they needed. and it was interesting how my writing in the second half over the book, which is entirely dedicated to my time working in trying to -- it's like the first part is the crash part. the second part is the override part. i'm a fucking dork and stuff like that. so, it became very clear that as awrote this and did more advocacy because i have done client -- we don't charge um i've handed then thousands of these case its personally over the least two years, and that

sucks. that super gets to you, not because of seeing all that and being reminded of when it happened to you but goto people that can press a pet button fix ex, hearing the bull shit and having to go back to person and say they saw, they didn't care, what would you want to do now? and it -- there's a lot in the book that i'm going to be in trouble with for saying, but the thing with a lot of the institutions they trade access for silence, and sometimes you have to sit and burn a bridge you're still standing on so they know you're not fucking around anymore. hope that -- got to have that hope. so, as depressing as it is to like look at these massive institutions that are failing us, and see things like too many people want thing solution to be more law enforcement when the inverse is true because people who are not white are disproportionately targetedded and we flav a country where the cops moore likely to kill you than help you, and beyond the

fact we would have a punitive system that it punishes offenders instead of-helping targets and the speed of this thing it's liming overlike your shit fog go hell and never come back. just in internet time and the law enforcement bodies move so slowly. it's years later when anything happens and can then it's usually leak you're doing to it make a point, not because it will help. so, we -- its sounded bleak that basically everything is broken and nobody is doing what they should be doing. but the inverse is true, too, if you think about it because we do not have to wait for. >> shouldn't wait for institutions to give a shit about us. we have to take care of each other. that's the biggest thing, having someone around that understood and could talk to you and say, jo offhundred or say it's like the ewith help on, there's people on your lawn that want you to die.

just use the back door, it's fine. everything is fine. having that in their life and people that can do that sort of help and help with just the workload, would be a better predictor of a more positive outcome than any action taken by law enforcement or tech platforms or anything and that was immediate. so people did support networks and that had some kind of savvy to either the social aspect of what was happening or the tech aspect. having that in their life is better than anything anybody that had institutional power could do for. the. now i'm passing on the savings to you. and by that i mean there are multiple chap theirs dedicated to here house you do it. i'm tired of being the person that has to do it. because like if you think but, the problem is people. the internet has -- the internet is soylent green which is fucking people, and if nothing else, at least the trash fire of this current election, feel like

it's harder than ever for people to disease nye the shit is broken and we havetake take care of each other. how to teach people with restorative justice instead of recreating punitive systems that just shuffle around harm. how do this in a way that is -- that minimizes compassion fatigue, which is like a fucked term but you know what i mean when i say it. it's like -- yeah, basically we're both the solution and the problem. the thing is, the heavy lifting on fixing broken systems almost always falls to the people actually being harmed by them and that needed to change. it's an everybody problem. sometimes that means have tolling take a side and saying you're being shitty, sometimes it's being a friend they talk to or something. system its it's not spreading this information without

checking it because that's such a huge thing. these are do-able today. not something we have to wait for, not something we can put off and say it's someone else's problem it's something we can do today, now, and so i want to see a future where we're all actively in this together instead of just we're in this together regardless whether we like it or not but we santa the responsibility and are our brothers and sisters and siblingses keepers. and the people that are targeted are not basically forced into activism and forced out of whatever they were doing before that and get that humanity back because when you're -- it's like a full-time job, being targeted. if you try to do anything else, it follows you there. if you try to do anything else the reputation follows you there. this is -- i want the gamergate thing to be a footnote. at my heart i'm still -- it's if a send tar -- the bottom part

was bad jokes and the top part pass butt jokes that's me. was never trying to be some clinton or -- anybody in the public eye. i'm like, no, i think i tweeted a few weeks before this amend i wanted to be the oscar wilder of -- as scare wilde of video games and throw stuff. if todd to other target and humanity has been taken from them and you get the hyperscrutiny of your own actioners on top of the scrutiny from i'm people and being able to just be a person should not be a privilege. that is a right everybody should have. and basically suffer us to live. yeah, can i do q & a and leave on a good line instead of saying something about good joke and bad jokes. it's a matter of time behalf bad joke slips occupant i'm i'm sorry. is there a mic? okay.

>> yaw, have two questions. somebody came from my own reporting for a book called mental health incorporated. how do you deal or suggest, one to deal with the trauma that you and other victims have gone through, because when i was doing my reporting about people in abusive institutional facilities, there was no help for them and they just remained traumatized. and then secondly, what is your -- i know you just said the criminal justice system is more traumatizing and dangerous for many people in our society, of course, and how, then, is your -- what are the legal or criminal tools that you think ought to be put into place that your activism could help generate so it could be something where they -- the people allowing it could lose millions of dollars, like sblc took away the assets of the klan and so on.

what are the tools legally and what can be. too about trauma. >> with the trauma part, one thing we focused on doing for people that were in crisis is we went through a lot of psychological first aid training which is what people who fir responders to disaster zorns dod and that'ses something inanyone can do. it's fir ahead, not lock-term psychology. if you help them in the crisis that more effective at lowering the impact of traumatic on a person's life than long-term psychological treatment. if you're there in the moment and can do the triage is it's helpful. that's all very centered on getting them to feel stable again and giving them things to do. like really small minor tsks to take that back, and reflective listening is a big part. and anybody can take that course online, too john hopkins does it for free online. you can learn all of these techniques yourself and it's like seriously -- even if you don't go into activism, everyone should know first aid, everyone

should know psychological first aid because you can help people through dark moments and be a huge difference in someone's life by just knowing the basic stuff. regarding what i'd like to see law enforcement do, i would like to see them -- right. they indiana to regulate other companies because most -- our biggest problem with the way review privacy and information is think offering this like -- has this ever been made public under any circumstances if no, then it's private. that's not the case anymore. how many websites have you signed up for where it says, here are terms of service and you hit accept because it's 20 pages long and doesn't make sense. if a service is free the product is you. your data can be put online and re circulated enall right lit without your consent and without any way to remove and it people don't know that. and there's these whole companies called third, party information broker they'd take your personal data and compile and it put it in searchable database s by the public and that's where documents when people get your home address and personal information that's writ

comes from and getting yourself removed from that is difficult. i'd live to see that regulated to hell and back. i'd like to see laws put in place that treat privacy and data as an opt, in and not an opt, out. that's the -- there's a total lack of consent and thinking of surveillance, not just from government institutions but from private institutions as well. because that is a major fucking problem that is not being addressed. ...

we cannot look at the criminal justice system and we need victim center approaches. it's better to see these things that enable it, facilitate, it's like so -- it's tricky because it's very easy to go too far in opposite direction and target things -- i'm brain-farting. a platform is not responsible for what's posted on it. that needs to stay in place to some extent because basically like twitter will shut town forever. it's almost impossible to regulate at the speed and the stuff can't do automated and there has to be moderated. we don't have now. there's a lot of -- the easy sidestep is consumer protection one and look at it in terms to build the platform to attack people on it, if no, you have

quality issue. you can avoid the whole legal quagmire and focus if the product is safe. not actually enforcing it. there's legal things that can be done so that the number thing that needs to go away, if we get rid of them, everything will be fine. that's the only reason i'm still here. the real name policies that facebook use, public displayed at is unfair to sex workers, a lot of survivors of domestic violence who need to hide. if it's not good for the people most affected and in both frequency and severity social security -- it's not a very good

solution. >> can you tell the viewers what is the main website for your information and activism that people can go visit? >> crashoverridenetwork.com. [applause] >> hello. hi, there. your story is very inspiring specially to me as a -- as a person who has been repeatedly bullied not only for being what i call, you know, asperger, but a person who stutters but i don't take it lying down because i have to keep calm and stutter

on my shirt. my question is when was the one moment when you realized that people are actually listening to me and they are not going through -- they're not going through the motions? >> it depends on what day because i definitely have days where it definitely feel like that's the case still. but i mean, that's the thing. you're still a person, who you are even though all of this stuff happens so if you're not neurotypical, what i call trash brain informally and scientifically. having that externalized and shouted back to you by people

for years, makes it hard to believe in yourself and makes hard that anybody cares what you say. i do have ptsd and i have been in therapy for several years and they have index from 1 to 100 and i scored an 89, i think, initially, up there with combat veterans. it's not like -- there's no p in my ptsd because it's constant and it's ongoing. having -- i'm down to like the 20's and teens on working on that. a lot has been mindfulness and behavior techniques, it's okay to feel like that and it's okay to acknowledge those thoughts. when people are like, don't think about a pink i -- elephant

and you think about a pink elephant. oh, god, nobody is listening. also being a stubborn asshole has helped. you're not going say anything to me that someone hasn't for three years. something you have to do it anyway, if you know it's right and you know that -- that's the thing, too, you hear from the people who hate you so much, you don't hear from the people are like actually being affected as much, you know, because they have less incentive to yell at you and that's like something i've been trying to keep in mind and i try to remember all the times that somebody said something that meant to me and i was too shy or busy or whatever to let them know that. the hate will always be latter, i'm okay with that, that's just how things work. [applause] >> y'all don't have to clap after each one.

that's cool. [laughter] >> save your hands. >> just to change gears a little bit, you have chip in finger and magnet in other, where would you like to see that kind of cyber-netting impleants go and are you planning to get anything else done? >> i usually use it to talk about data, stuff in your body, all of the data that you get from pace makers and insulin pump you don't own it and can't access it which can slow down treatment. there's an issue where people could be served if we treated platforms with less overbroad very corporate, very this belongs to me when it's in your body. i would like to see the approach

that we take to medical data, maybe re-examining in way that doesn't complicate privacy issues like collateral damage which isn't as fun as magnet or chip and i showed a friend that it can be reprogrammed. i used to give copies for people that are turbo nerds. that's a video game of cyber augmentation because i'm a dork. there's a lot of weird stuff about what you can and cannot do to your own body that i take issue with. anything that's helping to improve issues about body autonomy i'm in favor of regardless if it has to do with medical impleapts versus silly shit in my hand. that should be the title of my next book.

[laughter] >> sorry you have to walk so far. >> i walk in political communications and i was professionally interested in second half of the book and looking for potential solutions i was disappointed but you seem cynical about the role of policy and the role of nonprofits and sort of getting the message out about what's happening and trying to get systematic changes that will help knowing that they're probably going suck and need to be change and fine over time, but just reading through it i just picked up a lot of stuff like a checklist, god, this is stuff that a nonprofit should be doing, connecting experts and victims with policymakers and it have and to help shape legislation that's going to come one way or the other, helping victims that want to speak out and be public. i'm just wondering and curious

-- you mentioned one nonprofit that's been doing work and i'm wonder if you see any others or what role do you see that type of organization playing in fixing this mess. >> so my biggest concern with nonprofits is if we only seem -- it's like -- it's that the thing that we are giving advocacy legitimacy attention and not grassroots initiatives i worry about delegitimize those. that's a barrier to entry of a lot of people specially, come on, we are going around pissing nazis, you don't want to be transparent about that if there's other people involved because that could get them in harm's way pretty obviously. so i worry about this continual sort of -- institutions have more to lose, right? you do get the power that can come with it and mega phone but i don't want that to overpower

grassroots efforts that are not -- that don't have donors to answer to. that's like my biggest worry. the way capitalism intertwines with this, it's nasty. i think there's definitely room for it because, you know, that's where we are at and sometimes having a stamp that saying, hey, this big company gives a shit can open doors for you. it's the same that i have can academia. so as long as it's not accidentally just as collateral damage, delegitimizing grassroots effort there's plenty of people can do. it's all in the book. y'all can do it now. this is not copyrightedded -- copy righted info. >> as someone who understands being harassed and what not, i think it's still pretty universal and i'm sorry that you had to go through this.

in terms of what the federal government can do, what agencies -- who handles thinking of how it's police? >> currently it's the fbi. >> the fbi would be the sets the policy -- >> they enforce because the stuff usually goes over state lines, very rarely. if it's something that happens -- you have to know who your attacker is for a lot of this and if they're in another country you're basically screwed even though that's super common. if it's someone that's still in the u.s. like sometimes can be done about it but it's up to the fbi and i've worked with them on my own case and it's been --

they called me up one day and said is there someone who hates you in florida. [laughter] and i'm like can you be more specific? >> we picked up this guy for this other thing and had two gigs about you on his computer. and i was like what other things, that's classified. i don't know, man, probably someone hates me. does anyone come to mind, no, what. i don't -- thanks for that nightmare, though, agents, that's cool. [laughter] >> but my case against my ex was case level. i had to secrecy go back to boston every time to violated a restraining order to go through another show-cause hearing and on one he brought a date to which was weird. two years of hot mess. like he filed an appealed and retraining order two months

before expire and i couldn't renew and seattle where i moved to -- >> because you're a vamp pyre. >> yes, which is really hard. there's no 24-hour courts. >> to go back to original questions, i don't need all the details, but the fbi, it would be the agent, that would be the agency that would normalize this. >> it's tricky, it's not like online abuse. frequently domestic violence gets one, it can't be just one simple body because a lot of offline abuse becomes online abuse and we need to erase online and offline. so it's not like it's going anywhere any time soon. i would be worried if it's supposed to be one agency. every down to local police, people when they call up, hey,

they get your home address, they call up and say to the police or third-party, crime stoppers, so and so is building a bomb in this address, they hope that you will get s.w.a.t.ed and it's when the police goes in your door. they like to watch it happen. the hope is that you'll think your house is getting broken into it and murdered and even local police need to know what's going on because we have a militarized police force. even in the best cases, we would call up on behalf of some of our clients to try to if they wanted us to do that, i would call ahead, you will get a prank call at this address, i know you still have to check it out, maybe not with your fist and not with your boot. sometimes but not always. so it's like down to local level, it's one of the things that it comes down to whoever is answering the phone and everybody needs to be educated. >> thank you. >> no problem.

okay. cool. >> hello. >> hello. >> i was wondering how development is going on your game based on the work of chuck and mac compatible? >> that's my favorite question. we just got in, which is cool, we are in alpha, barely. so i'm happy that people already into the game and kind of cut a new trailer, we are using this weird game about proving love is real, solving a lot of problems with your butt, we were using to actually work a saga after it to improve rates relations between the unions and independent game developers because sag had their hollywood budget movie things and experimental things but they didn't have that version for video games. they had the interactive contract that was sort of based on like aaa studios which is the

longest strike that it has ever had. hey, we are cool, though, right. yeah, we should think about to work because sounds like all the labor issues we care about that and a lot of people left aaa. come hang out with us, it's cool. that slowed down development a bit but i'm happy that we were able to do that. >> would it be mac compatible? >> yes? >> i'm trying to get a 3d development kit right now. [laughter] >> i want to see if i can do that. [laughter] >> hi, you're the last person. >> one of the sections of your books that resinated with me was the beginning where you're talking about growing up and being in communities, i think probably a lot of people in this room who has sort of ground up as the internet as the thing,

whether it'd be like fortune or online, an article in the internet a while ago about entire pet owners -- >> there's a bunch of them. >> sparkle dogs, man. >> some are shitty and some seem kind of pointless but when they disappear or get wiped off the map sometimes sometimes it can feel kind of sad, i wonder when a virtual space you called home and vanished? >> yeah, i know there's a few conspiracy theories. i used to hang out on something awful a lot. mostly just reading because never post, i just don't do it. mostly like in game threats and stuff like that. i went back sometime recently and said, this is a nightmare now. the moderators have given up.

no. but i mean, at the same time community moderation is such a thing that you don't think about it anymore. look at the nightmare, we don't pay community moderators, that's a lot of work and it sucks, usually involves a lot of people screaming at you. the bad thing we treat people actively working on basically tending the gardens as disposable and just lucky enough to have a say in it. no, we should probably be compensated. good lord that looks terrible. >> thanks. >> no problem. [applause] >> and i think that's it for me. so i'm going to sign -- sit down now? well, this is weird. i'm going to be over here. >> thank you all. [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] >> book tv tapes hundreds of author programs throughout the country all year long, here is a look at some of the events we will be covering this week, monday we are at the new york public library in new york city to hear nobel prize winning economist mohamed explain how to transform the capitalist system to solve the problems of global poverty, employment, and climate change. on tuesday we are at threa -- three events on the east coast. we will argue that the education system should overhaul and

concentration camps, spending four continents and and we will have free library of philadelphia to hear pulitzer prize winner recall the life of soviet leader gorbachev and will examine how supreme court case impacted race relations in america. thursday we head to west port library in connecticut to hear author tom call the roll that the french played in assisting the continental army in revolutionary war. later that night, we will be in denver at the bookstore where doug will look at the vietnam wars of 1968 through the eyes of 40 men in the u.s. army's echo company. wrapping up the week on friday, we head out west to seattle for

sanford university history professor on reconstruction and the gilded age. that's a look at some of the events book tv will be covering this week. many of these events are open to the public. look for them to air in the near future on book tv, c-span2. >> i can see them bringing bin laden, he's young, millennial, he was trained for the last seven, eight years by some of the top commanders in al-qaeda, people that his father did not have access to council. he gets married to number two person in al-qaeda's daughter, who has been involved in virtually also every terrorist attack that happened against us and the world. he master minded the east

african embassy bombings himself. so i think hamsa is going to be the person. he had five different messages. at the very beginning they called him brother, in the last message announcement and the message referred to him as shake, indicates a promotion. you cannot be the leader of al-qaeda without having the title shake. so i think if you listen to his statements and i've been listening to all of his statements, you will see something really interesting. he never attacks isis. he never mentions caliphate, he never attacks, hamsa says, what's happening in iraq, syria, what's happening in algeria, what's happening everywhere, all

the guys are the followers of osama bin laden. he says, look, you people in the west, we used to be and now we are everywhere and his town, he tried to copy his father, he tried to copy his father, his tone is exactly the tone of osama bin laden and his message identical to what bin laden use today say, same statements sometimes. in his last statements, the one before last where he gave commandants for operatives in the west, he said, look, try to kill as many people as you can. so don't just take a knife. try to do it right, you know. and then he said, always leave a message, why you did it and i'm telling you why you did it. i'm telling you what to say. number one, our lands are

occupied. the land of -- two holy places are occupied. we did not hear that since osama bin laden died, we did not hear that since 9/11. palestine, if we don't live in peace in palestine, you will never know peace in america and in the west, well, that's something bin laden said himself. but also we did not hear that in how long? long, long time ago. he talks about stealing the weament to have -- wealth of the muslim world. what's happening in syria? murderers of of assad regime and the russians which he said that

we are doing attacks in the west because you're supporting them, you're supporting. that's the only thing he added and frankly cannot mention -- he cannot not mention syria. he's bringing back the original message of osama bin laden and i talk about his character, i talk about his childhood. he was a poster child for al-qaeda. in the early days, if you look at old video tapes he's always saying fiery speeches, poems when he was a kid, he's training and told his father, father, when i was in jail i learned a lot and you're going to be proud of me. i learned about this, i learned about that but now i feel forged by steel and ready to march with the allegiance under your commander. bin laden from all his sons who were released and, you know, he wanted only two people to come and join him, his wife, ph.d,

older than him and she has only one son,hamsa and his wife wasn't just a wife, she was his adviser. she was his wordsmith. literally. he wanted her to come not because he missed his wife after being in iran, he wanted her to come, if you don't bring her here i will bring her here which his commander is this guy lost his mind. what do you mean -- but then we know why, because he wanted her to basically work on his statement on the anniversary of the -- tenth anniversary of 9/11. he wanted her to tell him what to say. when they could not bring her to him he actually was convinced finally and he sent her a

letter, the tenth anniversary is coming and you know how important it is so i told, you know, his chief of staff to buy you a computer and usb's and please start working on the statements for the tenth anniversary of 9/11. she's the son of hamsa who pushed more and more toward following up in his father's footsteps. the woman behind the father and the son. so today we see al-qaeda trying to wait until isis totally dwindled and i believe after isis totally dwindled a new bin laden will come and claim, claim that message, claim the ownership of that message and i think they will be successful with that. >> here is is a look at some authors recently featured on book tv after words, weekly

author interview program. progressive policy institute senior fellow david osbourne examine the chatter school movement. harvard university professor daniel alan discussed how mass incarceration has impacted her family and radio host mark levine warned against federal government expansion. in the coming weeks on after words, investigative journalist will report onment health industry, former radio host charles will offer thoughts on conservative movement in america. craig will discuss the life and political career of newt gringrich and this week susie hanson reflects on travels abroad and weighs in on america's global standing. >> there's definitely the question if we are exceptional and the question of why had i never thought that this was a

form of propaganda, why had i not thought to question where was this concept coming from and what was the job that it was doing for individual americans and i think that, you know, one thing that i was realizing that took a long time to realize is that the very language that we use when we talk about foreign countries has been kind of determined for us a very long time ago because we tended to look at muslim countries and specially countries in the east as were they catching up with us or were they behind us and what that does is that prevents you from being able to see the country on its own terms. >> after words airs on book tv every saturday at 10:00 p.m. and sunday at 9:00 p.m. eastern. you can watch all previous interviews on our website at booktv.org. >> the truth is that the times succeeds on so many frts