moments in every movement. liberalism had to expel the communist in the late 1940s. conservatism had to expel the birches in the 60s and we have to deal with the alt right. >> afterwords airs on book tv every saturday at 10:00 p.m. and sunday at 9:00 p.m. eastern. you can watch all afterwards programs on her website, book tv.org. ..

>> >> a violent criminal organization of the mexican embargo. into have the account of the downfall all those from the

drug empire. and then with that intensity in that observation about life. and a shared history. end about this fascinating story. also from the aisle "washington post" tonight in conversation please help me

to join in welcome our guest. [applause] >> hello. things everybody for coming can you hear co pay? we are here to talk about the terrific new book "bones" almost everything from a hollywood script of hard charging drug cartel with the unassuming brick clair errant it all comes together very well there is of lab -- a lot of bad hombres. and also talking about how

this came together for him and also the process he went through to report a book that is quite difficult anybody the reports on drug cartels to verify facts, not getting yourself killed all of these are not easy to do when you are reporting like best subversive want to talk about how he evening came to hear about this story and how little started. >> burstein was the editor of the dallas observer and i would look for stories and i would get up really early at that time when that little child was tiny to wake me up i would go through the newspaper am looking for things i could tear out where share with a reporter and i came across this one.

he was there swimming with the big hat and the big trophy and i started to see with this was about the was 30 years in dallas but had risen to ruth prominence -- risen to prominence through horseracing which was popular but i did not know that because i was from california. so immediately i knew this was something. that we could turn this into a fully realize story sori ripped out to give it to my reporter and i kept it for myself. >> host: but three years went by. >> guest: i didn't have much to do with it in that moment. the fbi raided a rancher in

oklahoma so there wasn't much to go on like court records and nobody was talking certainly not the government lawyers would talk off the record but that was it. eventually the court case started to develop and i was told that gives you tips who the players are or the agents and that was a really early break with testimony from the irs agent. base for not far from where i was these government agencies generally don't love to talk about what they do before all the dust is settled. i think they were excited to hear from me and yes we will talk to get the ball rolling

>> with these two brothers could not be living in the different lives so what first drew you to this? what type of these ships period nature contrasts of the brothers to make you realize it was worth writing about?. >> exactly. i said i think just the notion list and had lived and worked not far from me but not only the brothers migel but other brothers from other places and then eventually he the leader of the zeta cartel that was big

and powerful but just known to be hellacious lead violent. so how do live that life and continued to make the choice if you are a bricklayer every day? for power right across the border and that choice at some point and that was a new great then. >> so what was it about a quarter horse racing on one side of the border what was about horseracing with the most murderous drug cartel.

>> early on at the outskirts their father had worked on a ranch around cattle and worse is. as an informal setting where one guy from ranch tells another reopened some money on the line so this is the passion of a lot of people just like it is it in texas and oklahoma and new mexico. so that was the draw. i saw that as he built that was his dad might have been able to build to give him

some more opportunities. >> host: when he first gets into it as he gets into this world he had not known that this point?. >> he states that humble bricklayer but that becomes more of a public face about it to have success and he wore a white hat. and he wore a white apropos

it was a coincidence but he did do that. >> and takes aisle and a flamboyance. that you try to be more subtle about but migel trevino especially under migel leadership started to a break that had written rule. so we know them from the mob for.

you don't mess around with american and law enforcement. and migel starts to flaunt a the rules. ed to be interested in horses for a long time. and then backing in the united states. but migel did not want to do that. in that drew attention to his family. he ordered his guys to go to ever real love to have them change all the names of the of horses that honor the of

sires and the demands of their breeding like the of number one cartel. so if the industry has known that for many years they welcome back -- that but they did not know exactly who it was. they hope to make it clear. >> so doing a good job of the micro and of macro this page turning narrative and with horseracing because there is a much bigger picture this is a result of

policies and how this affects families what was the big picture you drew from after reporting. >> in the quarter horse racing industry to have a system of drug laws and its many ways give the past is specially with wealthy white people with a quarter horse racing industry with drug money covers every aspect of that industry and it is multi-cultural with businessmen who own the racetrack or the best horses

or the of traders off through the industry, insurance brokers and then people of color who do a lot of those same jobs that are jockeys and trainers. >> everybody in that industry, that is part of the of a broader life and they are making a choice whether or not to do business with that money. it is all the same choice but the result is different depending on who they are. so that shows you what they are dealing with. a young wealthy white rancher id texas trying to

bring back his father's stud farm. so he gets the opportunity to read this horse or the same one that draws jose into the business. you have a middle aged bricklayer from mexico the bulls want to create wealth from their family and do everything we all want to do. and so they both make the same choice. this course is my ticket to ride. so the government shows up

and says that is interesting. they let jose day gaulle and go for a while and build his business and eventually they show up at his doorstep. they basically show up with a form that says that they want his cooperation that you can keep doing this. and literally show up with of form as one person is a partner and the other is the of bad person for girl --

but if you look at the broader industry it shows. >> it was not a victimless investigation. somebody was dead. tell us about that. >> guest: may couple people at least ended up dead because of their cooperation but there was a particular young man who could buy horses for the cartel and eventually various government agencies found out about that again day catch up with them and then to start cooperating with the government. or suspected he was

cooperating. there is nothing worse you could do than snitch. if that is great material for what it is important to write about but what is very difficult when you are a reporter. oftentimes people don't want to talk if they are indicted. with the pluses and minuses? so tell us about that. >> guest: yes. so that burst the - - the

first break getting to the government was great. but once does they all start to talk. the irs tells me all about this. so it did seem to work this way and then said they're telling us about this work that they did and that is great but that is the government's perspective. is one side. so then to get these other people involved so the people i can smile and torque -- entire story don't want to talk to me.

that they never felt comfortable sharing the story. >> and at some point what made you want to keep going?. >> failure mostly. [laughter] book editors are different than newspaper editors but i promise day book that would deliver this story had to show up one way or the other. if one of those or two of those but i didn't. the flip side in this case the of multi-year investigation there were separate trials.

including testimony from the people involved. over the course of two trials and you can hear their voice. and that is something to be said because the records don't why there are people who i would love to talk to and that would help me to understand where they're coming from. >> you are able to stitch together very vividly. what was your process to

take that process into 340 page book?. >> it just starts reporting all at and not stopping and at&t frustrating because it can go on with the juries are reporting that only ends up being a sentence in your book so don't stop amassing data or undervalues something as a drive to use and antonio. there was a document i put in the last draft of the book with a year and a half of developing the source

they didn't give that much and never came through. and it was crucial about migel childhood. so if he does stay with it and once you write that it tells you what else you need to fill that id then it is just a matter of cutting back. >> so every moment there comes that moment when they say screw this whether my doing with my life? [laughter] >> i was 38 months and.

-- now with the weekly published every day if i wanted to take credit for 30 of them i could. but you have that feeling every day putting stuff out into the world with the audience responding. but i didn't even have anything on paper. asking me every day when i drop off my kids how major book? seven define but i was thinking what book? i don't have a book. that was difficult for go i remember three months later a basically just started writing and that helped i did have nearly enough but i just started.

it doesn't matter if anybody is seeing it. but i have to come to that realization the process of doing that is developing. and then that helps me to break through that. >> your voice is a lot of different ways. and how you would write the story in one hand also it

could be light and funny. how do you strike that balance?. >> and to embody that character it does tend to jump from character to character and teach in this one particular person and that was the starting point and just really colorful people in this story and what he imagined was really important what is the 10 or

of this scene in canada captured that irony that exist? does it need to be more somber? and then later about injecting some more attitude into it. we're trying to hide in plain sight. >> would open to question is that people may have. >> that would lead us off. >> if you're ever threatened physically?. >> know i appreciate you say that i get asked that quite a bit.

>> were you ever scared? yes. but i never felt threatened or have reason to feel president and there is the theme that helps to explain but it is very dangerous to report of the drug cartels and to the extent along the border with their threat indoor kidnapped or killed and it is getting worse. honestly every time somebody would ask me that i would remember that that it is almost as respectful reporting after the fact it

was day big investigation and. and i am a white guy in dallas. >> do you speak spanish?. >> i do not. it was a challenge. >> did you change names?. >> one fbi agent asked workers to change. >> what about a quarter horses?. >> they reset the thoroughbred track so they do raise at the same track. there is tracked in brownsville.

event coming through the rio grande valley. that is part of the history that they traditionally smuggle their cocaine through florida and around the time of the advent of the dea when florida was shut down colombians started to look for a way to move cocaine into the united states. with a of a concave and crack kahn the rise those

mexican drug cartels dealing in heroin and marijuana so the colombians end of mexicans take the cocaine to mexico so that became a partnership. this covers 2,008 or nine. >> would you say you are reporting a researching i am

the traditional tools of journalism. >> there are three year four chapters in up so thinking of smuggling drugs coming

into the distaste a couple of chapters and have nothing to do with these characters. they did not exist in my first draft. trying to cram this context what if we just stop telling the story? and the first half and that is cool. and i love those chapters. >> wasn't going to but i could. if we have time. >> give the audience demands

that. >> i have not read anything yet. but i note exactly the part that i want. >> with bricklaying was ready to run. so then he shows up at the track in dallas now all this sudden nobody knows jose is the odor -- the oder and it takes place the night of the race. he wore blue jeans and a

light coat over a button down with the ball cap that made him look less like a porsche - - horse owner. coming to more than $500 if his horse won he would make $445,000 after steering clear he was skirting it to take that ownership it was packed with voters and traders if he did win they would try to leverage to take advantage. with the american end course racing in one walked up end

is not for sale. so jose trader was leading them out of the stall. back from the grandstand onto the track. [applause] >> there was amazing literature two-thirds through the book so we have this amazing narrative of literature that seems to have no influence on public policy. so notwithstanding how do we

take these stories. >> if you have the of presidents but yes. so a the first thing they do hope it has that effect the way we direct policy makers with those new organ it -- news organizations with those diverse storyteller's could help because frankly

there are people that might even speak spanish so i do think that would help but to buy books that independent bookstores to keep writing and supporting that institution to keep the conversation going for broke but the attorney general is a great example underwrote thomas said ellis' the prosecutors find a way to prosecute on these drug charges were they don't serve the statutory maximum

but now the new attorney general is on top of that. >> what do you see for a the future? has the way to find out?. >> but to be smarter active to push those progressive candidates to spend much more money on treatment and less trying to prosecute one

of the things in the book is the nature of by is and policing to dubai is training for those agents but i don't believe that is happening. but just getting the police agencies and federal agencies to eliminate their own biases is crucial but will that happen? i don't know. >> so before ending up on the investigation you

mention they went after that but i wasn't sure where that was. >> jose had not gone after him as much as he had the opportunity. with how i've stood a choice that was to say you told this forced it to say yes there is no evidence he was compelled. but that was his attempt also was the order that was breeding him. but with tyler he would recruit to the stallions and this was one of the stallions he possibly recruited. they went hunting together

to provide services to jose so he eventually he could have his dead at tyler's farm. >> what you wish tyler was indicted for. >> guest: that is an interesting question. i don't think tyler broke though lot. when i make that case of those inequities new are the white people that should have went to prison? that is not how i feel. tyler did not break the law. when he first stepped into the business. but then the fbi identified him and offered him a lifeline so there's no way

to know what he would have done three months down the line if he realized he was being used to launder money. so throughout the industry that are making basically the same choices and there are examples that were acquitted or convicted by a jury and they said wait. he was training courses not laundering money. he doesn't know where it comes from so even if you do know that doesn't mean that is what you are doing.

>> so what did the agent think of the book?. >> he was very cooperative. we had conversations that or not tense at all projects we're around these ideas of the investigation and that he did not agree with everything but felt i got a right to the extent i told the story correctly. that is as good as you can ask for. >>. >> we got along well.

but that is not true necessarily but one of the things that makes him a successful agent he can talk to everybody. >> so bill whole arc of this and to get a message. so to you describe how that would happen if feels pretty rare to get the fbi agent? and they don't want to talk on of record but that is to

run on appeals. but to get the agency to say to have then agent that is interested and have a personality or emotional availability the easter to think as a possible character? or we start to think of an offer to the story. >> and a big picture of the story that nobody else or

can talk about with those other agents involved but also lived the more interesting moments and doing all this stuff. >> how much do you know about horseracing? i had never bend to a horserace i knew very little about it.

i did not know anything about it. >> was that the most enjoyable part of the research? what was that information that you found?. >> but that peace is like going to a place you are not comfortable or especially welcome so woefully there were some former traffickers and thinking of a couple of meetings for those guys that

has direct access to a world that is hard to access. you can read testimony or books to explain how this stuff works. >> one of the cool things it is predicated on people making choices and with these drug traffickers what makes them do what they do?. >> i cannot speak for all of them but a lot of times they did not have a choice.

but in this case got out of the business and as they roll into town to pick people up there really wasn't much of a choice. and often times the towns or where they are from. and doesn't have a negative impact but there was a time the smugglers were looked at

bringing money back into the community. the impact was on the american side. >> then those are great place to launder money? the best way to launder money is through large global banks or the drug cartel billions of dollars through the banks with those systems in place they don't want them to work without fear of prosecution. i don't know if they thought it would be a great money laundering device and to make this money said to have

some of sensibly clean cash. >> but that is a very close-knit family. >> and the feelings toward his family?. >> then he was a loyal family man and do disavow his brother and to stay in touch to cross over the of border that were in the drug

business but was always a family man. >> but that moment and to not make a lot of money so what led to a that choice? what was getting ready to go to college and still living in the same small house outside of dallas and then to make more money and to get a different job?

especially saying $500 a week. and to do this all this time the time is running short now these kids are making something of themselves. >> you have written stories about crazy things celebrating this to be your first book?. >> i made that choice. that was a part of it. a then if there was really nothing going on i didn't

have sources or documents and that was assigned there was something more to it and to tell you to go write a story i wrote a story 6,000 words for the of a newspaper. to finish that and see how you feel. but we did with similar books. >> i don't know when or what about. but for sure to get back into the fight it feels it

would be fun. >> there are some great stories of the nationalist. >> one more question. >> an exciting story. and to be more exciting.

that is entirely factual. >> i optioned the book they were heavily involved in a the spotlight then there is in of feature phnom -- film excellence spanish-language films to talk about that being a nightmare. >> because they appeal to do a documentary because of a

journalist is very attractive. so the point is well taken but that is the route we are going for broke --. >> fictional for sure but to stay true to the real characters. they accuse so much. [applause] i will sign your book if you bite. [inaudible conversations]