coming. [applause] and if you'd like you could go to the desk or stay at the have copies of "spring forward" here, and think you all for coming. [inaudible conversations] >> here's a look at some upcoming book fairs and festivals happening around the country. this weekend we are at to state capitals live at the texas book festival in austin, and look force at the wisconsin book festival in madison. on november 15 it's the national book awards in new york city. later in the month we will be live at the 34th annual miami book fair on november 18 and 19th featuring senator al franken, best-selling biographer walter isakson, nbc news katy

tur and meet other authors. for more information about upcoming book fairs and festivals and watch previous festival coverage, click on the book fairs tab on our website booktv.org. .. national book award kevin young and many others. now, first up it's a look at some of the lesser known stories of world war ii. live coverage of the texas book festival on book tv. [inaudible conversations] >> ready?

>> yeah. >> good morning, ladies and gentlemen. good morning. my name is jim, it's my pleasure to welcome you in 2017 book festival. [cheers and applause] >> thank you. >> thank you, for coming out in support first of our authors, second, wonderful annual event in 22nd year. [cheers and applause] >> and third, of all the books that will be discussed and enjoyed throughout this beautiful texas capital complex here in downtown austin, if i may pause a beat, i would ask you to silence your cell phones, live tv, thank you, c-span. after our session both authors will be relocating to signing tent down the street to autograph books. books are for sale courtesy of

book people. [cheers and applause] >> when you buy a book at the venue you're supporting not only the author, festival and locka indy store but you're also helping the texas book festival as a nonprofit entity, pursue mission to low-income schools, reading rock star programs and fund grants for libraries throughout the state. additionally the festival is running a book drive benefit this weekend to raise money to help rebuild texas libraries that were damaged by hurricane harvey. that program works like this, when you go to cash register and check out and purchase books, simply tell the cashier that i would like to donate additional $15 to buy a book for a reading rock star student. the tbf and tucker foundation will each match donation to rebuild a library affected by hurricane harvey and so you can see you buy one book, kids in

texas and library system, three books end up going to help people. all of this should make it quite clear exactly how your purchases can make a difference. thank you in advance. as i i say, the book signing will take place down the street after our session. to our panel, two talented narrative historians who produced fascinating books that shed light on an interesting and somewhat unlikely theme hidden histories of world war ii. we have to my left meredith hindley, writer, historian living in washington, d.c., found her way at nation's capital after attending wyoming and studied english and history after venture today attend american university where she got her ph.d. meredith say that is one of the great things about being historian of world war ii is having tax deductible reason to visit london -- [laughter] >> paris and casa blanca.

>> it's true. >> senior writer in humanity at the national quarterly review of national endowment of humanities. he's here to discuss her book, battle for north africa and world war ii published by public affairs. the compelling read with a casa blanca worthy cast of characters, history buffs will love the colorful stories and scheming and enough action to make beach read. [laughter] >> it's about 90-degrees today. [laughter] >> november, austin. liza mundy, michelle, a biography, and now code girls, the untold story of the american women code breakers of world war ii. she has worked as a reporter in

washington post and written for the atlantic, politico and other publications. she's a frequent commentator on national television, radio and online news outlets. code girls has been reviewed nationally and boston globe wrote, one of women and men bound together working side by side as equals, temporary but real. and in that picture is more than a marvel of patriotic effort, a remind they're side by side as equals is who we are at our best and how we do our best. so congratulations to you both to the success to your books and welcome to austin. >> thank you. >> thank you. [applause] >> thank you for this amazing welcome to texas, it's my first time here. so, thank you. casa blanca is not surprisingly -- thank you.

i'm going to be honest it was inspire bid the movie like all of many of you here i saw the movie over a number of years and every time i would watch it, i would think, wow, i wonder what actually was going on in casa blanca during the war. was there the french resistance, what was the problems for the refugees, and so the historian in my decided to dig in and take a look around and the resulting book is destination casa blanca and the story turns out to be much more interesting and i think compelling that than the movie although it shares same elements, because casa blanca was a port, refugees found their way to the city during the war and it became one of the possible avenues to leave europe and trying to escape the nazis. but the port meant that it became logistically important to both the french war effort and nazi-war effort and ally-war effort.

the book looks at what happened to the city when the refugees comes. what happens to the city when dc arrived and what happened to the city when the americans come and the americans come in force. in 1939 only 100 americans in all of french marraco. in 1942, the 75th anniversary of operation is coming this week, 33,000 americans would arrive in french marrocco and another 30,000 would arrive as well. and so americans play regime swhapt. the people is -- when people ask me what the story is about, i often say it's about people who make choices, make choices to try and escape nazi germany and whether or not to collaborate

with -- make choices of whether or not they want to join the war effort or sit on the sideline. >> thank you. >> yes, so well meredith was doing her great research in places like london and morocco i was in assisted-living facilities here in the united states eating a fair amount of cottage cheese and. [laughter] and interviewing women in early to mid-90's about this incredible secret effort to recruit them to come to washington and become one of the group of the more than 10,000 women who were breaking the codes of the german naval codes, boats, japanese naval codes, the japanese army, they were reading signals all over the world including some that were coming out of north africa. so it was a massive effort to recruit college-educated women secretly. so women at the sister schools

were tapped secretly, they were called in to private interviews with math professors and astronomy professors, they were asked two questions, do you like cross word puzzles and are you engaged to be married. [laughter] >> a number of them lied at the second question and they that they were not because whatever they were being invited to do is quite a bit more interesting than waiting around while their fiance was fighting and risking his life in the car. -- war. the women joined the war. women who had not had the benefit of a college education who came from california, oklahoma, all over the country and if they had the aptitude, they were routed into giant-crowd breaking compounds and the army was recruiting for code breakers of its own and they hit upon a strategy to set handsome young army officers throughout the south and midwest

recruiting school teachers because they wanted women who were adept at languages and math and as a women in the 1940's, if you had a great liberal arts degree, pretty much the only job that you could expect is teaching school. marriage was sort of the theme, they were trying to lure the women to washington, but, in fact, a lot of these women were interested in getting out of hasty engagements that they felt pressure intoed when the war started. the women packed up the suitcases an came to washington as well and the reason this story has been untold for so long is the women were told that they would be shot if they talked when they were in washington. it was wartime, the work were top secret. they all had security clearances and to talk about their work, they were told to tell people that sharp and pencils, empty waste baskets, that they were

secretaries and that's what they did, that's what they continue doing after the war and because they were women, people believed them. they were the ideal intelligence officer at the time because people believed they were doing it couldn't possibly be important. [laughter] >> phenomenal stories, 70 years on and this all reads as very fresh in both of your cases. can you talk a little bit about the journey capturing the story, refining it, starting from the time you're researching the book in archives doing interviews, lonely work, isn't it, and you end upped having perform your life, so this is a journey that historians follow, talk about the research process and what gave you the initial spark to go underground like that and search for the stories? >> the initial spark for me was obviously the movie but inspired by the fact that when i was in the archives i would see glimpse of refugees in casa blanca in

morocco and that stayed with me. you're working on a project and you can't go out after the amazing cheney thing because you have to stay on task, but when i was looking for a new book, i kept remembering that those telegrams and reports and so i decided to dig in and see what was going on in casa blanca. i used state department documents at the national archive here and had to go to france because morocco at the time was controlled by the french, the french protector of morocco and when france left, in 1950's, took most records from the era to france. there's also some in paris. i always did research in holocaust museum which turned out to be an amazing resource

because of all the records it had collected. it collected, had the records of helen, ran a refugee agency in casa blanca. she's a great story. she's a moroccan jew. when 200 ships show up carrying refugees and they can't dock and then it goes on for weeks and the refugees are living in squaller and suffering health problems and she decided to help. she started own refugee agency and would run throughout war and major resources for jews that arrived in casa blanca. those records are at the holocaust museum in dc. >> you ended up having to use research tools to compel release of secret documents, can you talk about how you reached that

point and then what you did? >> right. a loft -- amazingly a lot of the intelligence-related documents from world war ii are still classified and so i was working with the nsa on trying to get -- trying to get the story out but trying to find living women and find out if there was any documentary evidence of the work that they had done. turned out that there was enormous amount of evidence. i started out by flying freedom information act to get oral histories and incredible histories that were written about the wartime code breaking operations by very lit rate -- illiterate people and they started grinding out great beautifully written histories and memos and administrative reports about the efforts which had been generating the whole time. but they were top secret classified and the intelligence agencies like the nsa are so flooded by requests right now

that in the end i had to sort of, i wouldn't call it the "nuclear option" but i had to ratchet up to mandatory classified request and was able to procure more than 20 oral histories that had been taken of women over a number of years and and a couple of the valiums of great histories of the code-breaking effort. unbelievably there's still a couple of valiums that i understand that are classified because the nsa has to talk to other intelligent asian yils all of which came out of wartime intelligent, oss, wartime intelligence gathering that are still -- so there's the usual sort of washington in fighting of whether or not we can yet declassify these records that are, you know, 75 years old. >> when you got the transcripts, were they blacked out? >> yeah, it's sort of even more kind of random than that.

sometimes in whar chiefs you -- archives you can find redactive sections. the administrative records that the largest histories do exist, you can actually see what's in the redacted section, so then i was actually taking pictures to my phone and sending to contact at nsa. i can see all the women name yet there's redacted page, please get this volume. [laughter] >> they don't necessarily know what's in the national archive. >> maybe you don't want to tell them. [laughter] >> no, i pounded on the door. they were very cooperative and motivated because, i mean, they really we wanted to get the story out, female historians and male historians as well were so helpful. if you're the nsa, one more story about edward snowden or talk about wartime. [laughter]

>> a shout-out to activists and librarians because without the care they give the records, we wouldn't be able to do this kind of work and write this kind of history. >> meredith -- [applause] >> meredith list talk about the movie casa blanca, it's amazing, the movie was released weeks or days after the campaign was actually won. movie propaganda. >> on november 8th, 9th, americans woke up to discover that its forces had invaded north africa and one of the primary targets was casa blanca taken by major general george

patton and warner brothers being the good capitalist that they are, hey, we have a film about casa blanca, hmm, maybe we should rush that out. so they did. the movie had its premier in new york around thanksgiving and then it would go to larger release in beginning of 1943, but one of the great stories about the movie is on new year's eve roosevelt watches casa blanca at the white house, part of new year's eve party and there's only a handful of people in the white house at the time would know that less than two weeks later he would be flying across the ocean to go to casa blanca conference in morocco, just happened to be a great sort of piece of publicity for the movie as well. so warner brothers in a sense really lucked out and helped that the movie is actually good. [laughter] so that helped too.

>> the box office wasn't huge, wasn't it? >> wasn't huge but steady. >> best picture. >> it would become the best picture. >> your book in one hand history and it's stunning, filled with action and detail but the book is not just military history it's a culture portrait as well. can you talk a little bit about the cultural figures, the ones that jumped out immediately, josephine baker and kessler and can you talk about their roles in this drama. >> kessler, of course, is the author of darkness at noon, one of the most important books in 20th century, critique of the soviet union and he finished the book and sent it to publisher in london ten days before the nazis invaded france. kessler was also a jew and hungarian and had been active in communist party. he had been antinazi and he knew when the germans or if the

germans were able to roll into paris, that he would be in major trouble. so he escaped south like so many of the refugees did and ends up through a series of calculations joining the french foreign legion and changes his name. they go across to north africa and he ends up in casa blanca. he has no papers at this point proving who he is and he's actually arthur kessler, the well-known hungarian journalist and so he ends up at the american son -- consulate and he tell it is story and herbert who is the consul general believes him and issues emergency certificate which allows him to make it to britain. the breñ foreign -- french

foreign legion is important, i kept running into the french foreign legion because of influence in north africa and upper french leadership. josephine baker, the woman who takes paris by storm in 1920's and 30's, amazing performer, she dances, she sings and she gets recognition in paris in ways that she could not get in the united states because she's african american. baker loves france because of the opportunities that it provided her. and so when france falls to the germans, she joins up with the french resistance. so a celebrity as a spy. you think that might be a problem except everybody loved to talk to josephine baker. [laughter] >> nazis, spanish officials, french officials, portuguese officials.

doors would open and tell her things. baker makes it to north africa and morocco and uses morocco as base to travel to spain and portugal where she goes to parties and she would basically write the information that she collected from various officials onto her sheet music using invisible ink and bring it back to morocco. it's quite amazing, quite daring, she could have been shot as a spy if she had been captured but then she suffers a major health crisis and she winds up in the a clinic in morocco, in casa blanca for almost 19 months and even then she's still spying because her hotel room, i'm sorry, her hospital room, becomes a place for everyone to meet and people come and they talk and becomes another way to gather intelligence. >> right. great cover for status as the cia would call it, nobody would ever suspect. liza, i love how some of your --

they would giggle and say, i sit and laugh with the officers. >> right, right. [laughter] >> great cover for status. >> yeah. as i said, people believed them. i love the story of women who sort of used their -- there was another women who was intelligence officer for the americans or the british and she would say, you couldn't possibly have those rocket systems and some of the men, yes, we do. [laughter] >> never underestimate a man's ego. [cheers and applause] >> so it wasn't all sweetness in life. the women were subject to sexist standards of performance and everything else like that. was that why perhaps one of your

reviewers in praising the book, infuriating and it was temporary? >> yeah, the army and the school teachers who came to work for army civilian operation were in many cases put in charge even if they were very young and 23-year-old woman turned out to be great at radio addresses that the japanese army was use to go communicate in the pacific. she would be elevate today address the unit and christy who would become the first deputy director of nsa was such a woman. she was recognized and rewarded in that operation no matter how old and no matter what the gender of the person. that was, i think, reasonably environment to work in, the women who were working for the navy code-breaking operation and

they were at a compound which was where the department of homeland security is now, they joined the navy so they -- it was so interesting to read the records and as the navy was trying to cope with having women in the military after the waves were created, for example, there was a rule that women couldn't be pregnant and so there were a couple of women who were really talented code-breakers, they got married and pregnant. they were thrown out in short order and it was very traumatic for them to be like one minute they were breaking the codes of that the japanese army was using to communicate on different islands and next thing they were booted pregnant wearing the raincoat that they had been issued that they weren't supposed to be wearing anymore. that was unpureuating for -- infuriating and it's interesting in the documents to see a lot of the people in the code-breaking combat had to carry pistols because they would -- all papers

had to go to burned bags an burned bags had to be taken to place that is they were burned and they would have a pistol and you can see the weekly memoranda. so what are the rules, can the women be taught to shoot, we have a pistol shoot and we need them to be able to and they didn't really know and so somebody in the meeting would say, i hear that this other group somewhere else they are letting the women shoot, let's let the women shoot. it's ad hoc being made as agency required. >> right. this generation of women, many were born in 1920's as you point out in the book, secured the franchise, did they see themselves, looking back the greatest generation, whatever you call it, the women whenever you see the generation is transformative or were they doing what they were supposed to do? >> yeah, do i think as the particularly group of women hidden figures of the

generation. i'm so glad in a period of time you we are recognizing and increasingly willingness to recognize contributions that women made to major, you know, epochs. >> i have been attach today them, they were born in 1920 when women got the vote. the women went to college when only 4% of women had 4-year degree and worked hard to get there and they received kind of a mixed message. they lived through depression. a lot of them were the oldest daughter in their households and they were ve responsible for households at a time that i came to believe that we forget the trauma that the families experienced during the depression but they were so patriotic. they just, you know, ran to the recruiting station when the waves and the whacks were created. they we wanted to serve the country and wanted to join up the way their brothers and their boyfriends did.

i don't know if they saw as transformative. they accepted the idea that they shouldn't get credit and were told not to talk about even though their husband could talk about what he did. they sort of accepted that, by the time i was talking to them, i think they did understand that what they had done was significant and they did want credit for what they had done. i hope that i live long enough to see the book published and she did. [laughter] [applause] >> i understand that we have 10 to 15 minutes left in our session. do we have a microphone in the center aisle for questions, if anybody has questions raise your hand and a volunteer can bring the mic to you, i guess. i'm sorry, you will come to the center aisle where the volunteer is, if you do have questions, please do come in regard -- forward and the authors would

love to engage in conversation. meredith, let me ask you, i'm interested in the way that you focused on north africa as a stage for drama but in the background is the crisis of france. can you talk a little bit about what was going on, imagine your country overrun by nazi storm troopers, institution destroyed an puppet regime and shadow government across mediterranean. what choices were they faced as the country falls apart around them? >> even though france collapses and -- so as part -- let me start over. france is allowed, france is allowed to keep its colonies in north africa, so it gets to keep algeria, tanasia and french morocco. that meant that people who were in french morocco had governed by bc and all its policies, antisematic policies, policies

against free speech, judicial system, all the policies that it's known for get export today french morocco. and so the people who french citizens and and french morocco citizens have to decide whether they want to continue to work for the government. he wants to keep position and collaborates and but he sees it as a way and try to keep the nazis from coming to morocco, that's his hope. other people decide to join the resistance and they form underground network that is runed by an aided by strategic services and casa blanca and other cities in morocco and so people do make choices. you sort of -- do you resist or

do you collaborate? and for a lot of people, the choice is actually i'm just going to kind of go along and hope that the war is over before i really have to make a decision and i hope that no one actually comes to french morocco, then the americans show up and they kind of make the choice for them. >> sir, do you have a question? >> yes, these women started to break the roads before the days of computers. can you tell us anything about how they would go about breaking those codes? >> yes, how much time do you have? [laughter] >> the code systems were all very different. my favorite parts, some of my favorite parts is when they are trying to hide radio transmitters, oss people are coding and decoding messaging and so all different sorts of systems are being used. some are code groups in which a

word like moru would be replaced by a four or five digit code group and further enciphered with more numbers so the women on this great assembly line that the navy set up would be stripping out the encryption. they would be trying to determine what the additive had been that had been added to code group. they were essentially hacking into communication systems and they were doing the the opposite of cyber security which was hacking. and then they were trying to determine in the message where there might be a code group that meant noon position, because noon position was what the japanese ships would use to announce where they were going to be at noon and next day, what better piece of intelligence for american commander to know that. a number of the women were doing math to get to code group but they were using language skills to try to determine in a message where an important word might be. the u-boat codes were different. they were scrambled by a machine

and had to use statistical messages. a lot of guessing. i think the word weather and try to figure out how the enigma machine would turn a w into five different letters until it emerged at tend. jiggling, that was actually a term. jiggling, there was math but then the early versions of computer menus when they were trying to determine how the machine setting had changed the w to whatever, whatever letter they were actually looking at. they were doing early algorithms. >> i also love the way in which intuition, i have the hunch that this might be the way the code works and they would play through and that's how they would break things. >> why, that's why it was so hard to break altitude. you had to have intuition and persistence and willingness to

guess. >> was there any interaction and collaboration between the u.s. group and the circle? >> there was some communication, we were uneasy partners at first and particularly breaking the u-boat codes and atlantics but obviously convoys, we needed to do that, so it wasn't so much the women in the united states communicating, the women were communicating with men, one of the women in my book communicated every day with a man who she never met and her code name was pretty weather and his code name was virgin stegeon . in later history they were doing great things in time period so after the war did they kind of live in relative on --

obscurity. how did they manage the fact that they did such a great thing and nobody knew about it? >> tell us about anne carol christy. >> this 22-year-old whiz who helped break the japanese army address codes. there was a whole cohort of women who stayed on on what would become the nsa. there was a significant number of women who were working during the cold war, working the east german codes, the cuban system until the cuban missile crisis and the code-breaking for that was led by a woman who started during the war. a number of them retire into private life and another reason this story became forgotten was that by the 80's and 90's when the vow secrecy was lifted, nsa didn't know where to reach

them. they had their maiden names, they didn't have same names. nobody told them that it was okay to talk. but there were also women in the navy who went to graduate school on gi bill. there were women who were able to further education and become professors and join the workforce. it was a pretty interesting mixed bag. >> yeah, so baker would be awarded a number of medals and recognition by the french government for her work and complaint at one point that josephine baker thinks she was the french resistance. [laughter] >> and go onto continue career and she would advocate for civil rights and as for helen, she continued humanitarian work after the war and she would also jews, moroccon jews and was not

the only thing that both did. >> what do you think -- or what do some of the women think about the progress that we have and in some cases haven't made in equality for women these days? did you get to talk to any of them about that, current events? >> right. you know, i have my own thoughts that we -- [laughter] >> you know, we continue to debate whether women belong in the tech sector and whether women are fit in working in silicon valley because the histories have been so secret for so long, we forgotten that women pioneered this field. hopper's name has been put on a residential dorm at yale university. she was involved in computer programming during the war so i think we are finally recognizing these women. the women themselves, i would imagine that they -- a number of adult children i had talked to said that, you know, they felt

that their mothers were frustrated by being out of the workforce after the war. a number of the nsa women if they had children they felt like they had to quit. in the 50's you really were pressured to be home with your baby and the child care that had been provided during the war for rosie was withdrawn. so a number of the women, adult children felt that they were in some cases traumatized but also missed being in the workforce and one adult daughter said to me, my mom really seated feminism in the house because she really missed being in the workforce. a really complicated legacy. >> do you have a question? >> this question is for meredith. how accurate is the movie casa blanca compared to what you wrote? >> i like to say that casa blanca captures this spirit of

casa blanca the city and what was going on. in terms of -- there wasn't a coffee, sorry. [laughter] >> sort of the closest -- the closest thing to riggs and the collection of people who would show up in it would have been a waiting room at u.s. consulate because it's people went for visas and it's where you went to buy housing and get advice and who was a reputable jeweler and where you would go to get medical exam which is part of the visa. the hotel transalantic is a ally bar, allies hung out and the hotel was where the nazi hung out. rix would have been an extraordinarily rarefying your

because there were only 100 americans in all of morocco. most of them were businessmen. some missionaries, and then sam, extraordinary, i only found records of -- before the arrival of american troops, i only found records of one african american in morocco and he was the night porter for the u.s. consulate. >> thank you. >> were any japanese american women used as code? >> not that i know of. there were some japanese men who were -- who were working as translators because for some of the message systems you did need to know japanese, you did need to know somebody who translate the message from japanese to english and what's interesting a lot missionaries were used. they were among the few and there was beth any college in west virginia, there were a bunch of women who came from

bethanay. we didn't -- we availed ourselves of native american code talkers, navajo code talkers so we did avail ourselves of communication skills, but it's recognized that we didn't use japanese americans the way that we should have, could have. >> this is for liza, who were the men who were smart enough to recruit these women? [cheers and applause] >> that's a great question. in terms of the army, a man named william freedman who was marry today female code-breaker, he was a man who appreciated intelligent women, wasn't threatened by them even before the war. william freedman had a tinny code-breaking operation for the u.s. army. they were an incredibly

important japanese code system caught purple that was a machine that the diplomats that were using that were all over europe communicate to go tokyo about the intentions of hitler and other access leaders providing information out of europe and it was a woman he hired who had not been able to find work as a university math professor and freedman was willing to hire women, he understood and the federal government in general was a reasonably good equal opportunity, relatively equal opportunity employer but he hired this woman who hadn't been able to find a job, she's the one, they worked the code system in two years, she saw the statistical relation between the messages. she had the key insight that enabled them to get purple and get a stream of diplomatic communications out of europe and in particular including where the d day landings were best to be made. i will say within navy we don't know. there's a really interesting document right before pearl

harbor. they are trying to figure out where they will get intelligence officers and there's a document that says new source, women's colleges. and that's when the idea was born to approach the 7 sisters but there's no name on the record, so that's loss in time. >> any thoughts on your next project. >> meredith, you can have all of that one. [laughter] >> really, you don't want to answer that one? >> directions u -- subjects. >> more drama. more interesting men and women doing things we don't know about yet. >> hidden history of world war ii, thank you all for coming. [applause]

>> we will have the book signing now. [inaudible conversations] >> you're watching book tv on c-span2 live coverage at the texas book festival, that was authors liza mundy and meredith hindley. in just a few minutes we will be back with more coverage. next up michael hurd will talk about his book thursday monday night lights, story about football in texas.

[inaudible conversations] >> here is a look at some of the current best-selling books. talking to kate dodson report that hit london in 1952. while at the same time a serial killer was lose in the city. next russian american journalist reports on the generation of russians who came of age during the putin regime in the national book award nominated the future is history. and fifth allen advice on structuring your thought process in how to think. a look at best-selling books in austin with walter leonardo da

vinci. sisters first. followed by mark manson advice on leading a happier life. next roger hodge with history of ranching in texas blood and rapping up our look at best-selling nonfiction books, according to book people bookstore in austin, texas is vacation land, humorous john. anasome of the authors will appr in book tv. you can watch them on our website, booktv.org. >> campaigned for justice or pursue the killers because of prejudice, they neglected the crimes because they were native americans. one of the things that shocked me how corrupt much of the

justice system was back in 1920's specially in this reminiscence of frontier. many lawman had little training. very easy to buy off a lawman. private investigators actually had a much more larger prominent role in society back then because they often had to fill this void, but the problem with private investigators were they often had criminal backgrounds, they often were available to the highest bidders, the boundaries between a good man and a bad man were extremely horrid. many investigators seemed to be concealing evidence rather than unearthing it. while this was going on, it wasn't only molly's family that was being systemically targeted, others were dying too.

he left his house and when he came back he dropped death vomiting and for those of you familiar with the christy mysteries, it's just an absolutely poison, causes the whole body to convulse as with electricity and you slowly suffocate while you're conscious until you mercifully die. one of the reasons poisoning was so common, common way back then to kill because even though scientists knew how to determine and you can simply go to local drugstore or the grocery store, pick up some form of poison and give it to somebody or spike liquor and it was a way to kill somebody and go undirected.

in 1923 those who were capturing killers, were also being killed. he took a train there and told his wife, he had ten children, that i've got evidence in the hiding spot, if anything happens, make sure you get it and give it to the authorities. he went to oklahoma city and met and gathered evidence, after died of poisoning and called local authorities and said i have enough evidence to catch the killer, i'm coming back. i'm getting on the next train. when the train arrived he wasn't there. he didn't get off and sent out the blood hounds looking for him, local boy scout troops that

took up the search and was eventually found, body lied down and somebody threw him from the train. somebody had gotten there and cleaned out all the evidence as well as the money that he had left for her and the ten children who were left, many children were raised by families another man, oil man who was a friend and he went to washington, d.c. to hopefully get federal authorities to investigate the cases specially given the local corruption and he got to a boarding house in the capital, he checked in, he receive ad telegram from an associate in oklahoma that said, be careful. that evening he left the boarding house and was abducted at some point and he was found

the next morning in a culvert. he had been beaten to death and stabbed more than 20 times. the washington post at the time said in a headline what they already knew. a conspiracy could kill rich and -- indians. after official death toll took more than 24osage, the tribal council issued resolution pleading and demanding for federal authorities untainted by corruption to intervene and it was then that the case was taken up by a rather obscure branch of the justice department when this really was not seen obscure and the federal bureau of investigation and later renamed the fbi and someone fit to go this day to talk about the bureau because i think it's

probably in a lot of people's minds. bureau back then had a smattering of agents. they were not authorize today carry guns. if they we wanted to arrest somebody, they had to get a local law noon get the arrests and had very limited jurisdiction over crime but had jurisdiction over american indian reservation and so that is why the murderers became one of the largest homicide cases. in 1925 the new bossman jay edward hoover, summoned tom white. tom white is a remarkable man and in many ways he's like molly, reflects and embodies the transformation of the country. he was born in a cabin in texas

on the frontier. he was from essentially a tribe of lawmen. his father was a sheriff. he saw men being hung. he practiced law riding on a horse with a gun at a time when justice was often needed out with a smoking barrel of a gun. by the 1920's when -- 1925 when hoover suddenly summons him to washington, he has to wear a suit, he's got to learn to adapt techniques like fingerprinting. he doesn't know hoover has summoned him. hoover was replacing many frontier lawmen with a new breed of agent, college boys that

typed faster than they shot and old-timers would mock them as boy scouts. in fact, they had very little criminal experience. hoover kept on the roles and they were known as the cowboys. this is actually a picture of hoover taking just a few months before whitesaw. that's exactly what hoover looked like at his desk. he was new to his job and insecure about his power and the funny thing about hoover was he hated taller agents. they were afraid that if he thought they were tall, he might fire them.

so right when he summoned white, white stood 6'4. [laughter] >> even though he had new suit he was wearing cowboy hat which violated protocol. there he was looming over hoover and hoover begins to tell him about the murder cases. and the bureau had actually been at that time working on the case for two years and the results had been completely disastrous. >> book tv records hundreds of author programs throughout the country all year long and here is a look at some of the events we will be covering this week. on monday we are taking a tour of the book publisher in washington, d.c. to interview some of the people responsible for bringing a book from acquisition to publication. on tuesday we head the pilgrim hall museum where rebecca will provide history of mayflower

voyage. on wednesday, we are at the city university of new york, robert while, editor in chief and publishing director will receive fourth annual excellence award presented by the biographers international organization. and then on thursday, the theater in los angeles, gilbert, scott adams will discuss how donald trump used the art of persuasion to win the presidency. on friday we are back on nation's capital at politics and prose bookstore to hear lawrence recall the 1968 presidential election and sunday emmy-winning actor will share his thoughts on the constitution and today's social and political issues at powell's books in oregon. many of these events are opened to the public, look for them to air in the near future on book tv on c-span2.

>> it's something that woodrow wilson said on memorial day. may 30th, 1919. the treaty hadn't yet been signed. everything had been discussed and everything had been agreed upon. just a few details remaining to be settled. and on memorial day, woodrow wilson and his wife drove out to an american cemetery just outside paris. it was close enough to paris that you could actually see the spoke of the eiffel tower in the background and there woodrow wilson walked out before hundreds, thousands of graves, the white crosses, you have seen pictures of it time and again and woodrow wilson who could barely contain themselves, there were lots of french mothers and families scattered all around, this was an american cemetery and the french had planted an american flag at every grave and wilson got out there and did an eloquent speech. the speech was finished, they

thought and then wilson said, this is hard for me to read. if i may speak a personal word. i beg you, he said to this audience, to realize the compulsion that i myself feel that i am under by the constitution of our great country i was the commander in chief of these men, i advised the congress to declare a state of war, i sent them over here to die. shall i, can i ever speak a word of counsel which is inconsistent with assurances i gave them when they came over. it is inconceivable. there's something better if possible that a man can give than his life and that is his living spirit to a service that is not easy, to resist counsels that are hard to resist, to

stand against purposes that are difficult to stand against and to say, here stand i, consecrated in spirit to the men who were once my comrades who are now gone and who have left me under eternal bands of fidelity. i often wish every president had to read that paragraph of that speech before he sends any man or woman abroad. so we live in a world and specially a country whose economy, whose entire foreign policy, you see our identity was forged by this war, by world war i and i think taking a queue from woodrow wilson, behooves us never to forget that. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org.

[inaudible conversations] >> and we are back live from austin for the 22nd annual texas book festival. now michael hurd provides a history of african american high school football in texas. .. .. .. ..

>> >> time of segregation for cry went to a school that was segregated and telling was the ninth grade so i have a little better context. also in 1977 through 2006 by that time the school had been integrated but still there were rules that participation is open to all students except for correctives and effective so we're dealing with an organization that was not politically correct. it is my pleasure to welcome michael hurd i have known him for many years the value him deeply.

with the preservation of history and culture to document the history of african-american texans procopius work for the houston post, "usa today" and previous books include black college football, 100 years of history. he currently serves on the committee for a the black college football hall of fame my job is to say as little as possible so he can say as much as possible with a short time that we have. we hope we will follow us where he will be signing books and their urge you all it is "thursday night lights" the stoy of black high school football n texas" not only highly readable but it is an

important document so with that said please block of michael hurd. [applause] give us an idea when he began writing this book and what is your inspiration?. >> first of all, live glad to be here today so i write in the book i have been writing the books since adolescence. so with high school football back in the stone age in the '60s but i graduated in the spring of 1967 but the first season that blacks and whites competed against each

other. so state why it was the first season for integration across the state. sort to that point these are the people that i knew about the players and coaches and schools the first term and i heard the term friday night lights i had no idea what that meant and that meant no relatives to seattle -- to be at all. when i said thursday night lights that is for black people proposal that was the situation in houston all the games played at jefferson stadium wednesdays and thursdays so they all were played during the week. so to write about this time

and every credible of blood negative athlete because the mainstream media did not talk about these guys but yet with those incredible players of the afl and nfl also a big-time college players and some of them were groundbreakers. so what this was about but also a trace is black history in texas it covers 50 years and i can recall what that arrow was like for blacks even to get an education.

whether or not they deserve to be educated. so there is a lot there is a we have a sports book and a large dose of black history. >> i assumed it was against the rules so was that in the rules? it was either not allow they were not inclined to do so. >> it was not going to happen in. [laughter] when it started in their charter specifically it noted their membership with any public white school. so with that extracurricular

activities. so you cannot over think this talking about the era of segregation and racism but there was no social climbing boeing for the blacks and whites and did other areas not even enough thought or a possibility that they were competing against each other. >> was there ever any instance to have a successful program that somehow generated interest if they were football fans to think they are really good? did that ever happened?. >> no. [laughter]

because of that it was a very weird set up if you were black you were not allowed to attend the white gabe's. but if you went to the friday game that though white school you have to stand outside the fence or there is the very tall tree you would climb the tree and watched the gave from that tree. but there is also the acknowledgement with attendance because white fans would go to the black high-school games and some of those that i talked about when they would travel with them were white. so this measure of acknowledgement in the community but the media still does not talk about

this. and the point of my research there is very little to be found. there is a great coach at decades who is my favorite. but coach patterson won four state championships but also in basketball and baseball and did my research i found one story about coach patterson with the local black newspaper in houston with all that he accomplished and yet there was no acknowledgement that they would never fully embraced. yes though white fans

rapidly but no relationship beyond that. >> talk about the role of the african-american press powless it is documented in promoted from white football. >> i also read a lot about black college football history. going back from 8282. to come up a library geek. from california lecter vertexes. and then the daily world negative so far.

and they said houston. soul every thursday at would go to the local grocery store and they were writing about us. id they were writing stories who were playing. and not so much about me. [laughter] by writing about some of those are the guys gave us our first publicity. so one? story doing my research on black college football i started to find these papers this was in the '60s we did

not get black history studies so there was slavery and here we are. >> there was nothing before that or nothing after that. so i would have all of these why didn't died about this moment? why did died about that? so what i found these it was to go to the sports section to see with their writing about the black college sports. i would open the paper with the front page and i was stuck. i have to read the story now have to read this one. it opened up the world for me in that 80 so they started to make this turn from being a sports writer joyce sports historian.

and then to a black historian. so they all came from the black media. and that is how they get the word out. it did not cover them on the of a regular basis. and from the of playoff games for go. >> with little bit of history of how with began it paralleled in the unequal way. >> extremely unequal.

and how this cater to be too rigid the university of texas id 1810. it was volleyball and i am not mistaken. so ted years later in 1920, another group of black teachers from the state association said we need to do what the uil is doing for white kids we need to do that for black kids. so that was the equivalent so literally the flagship university for black education. so the teachers get together

but actually it did not become that action but before that it was various names like that negro league . so they come together to start their league. it was about track and field and had nothing to do with football or basketball ironically. there were a few teams but it was all about tracking field. id for all they his educational and then they pattered after a the uil with the competition's and

that is with the competition. >> and during that time if you had a good season if you could proclaim yourself the state champion. [laughter] if you write it houston did you beat them you could say we are the best of the state. but if you are in lubbock you could could make the same claim if you go up against al believe or amarillo. ended to put together this plan put that playoff competition so you don't get

the first offical all tibia and until the 1940 season. so they come together in and start the league with these incredible players with these marvelous teams. i could get to the demise. >> that is what i was going to ask you next. >> with a great integration of the late '60s what happened during that time?. >> it was a pretty exciting time and with integration and.

and a the board id 1854 some of the schools in texas picked up on that immediately and primarily in the past so. -- el paso but what that cost for the uil was a big deal because of the clause said the membership was available only to the public white school. so no schools did el paso, san antonio, corpus christi that did not have large black populations a lot of those integrated immediately. so what and when it to lou uil and said we will have black players so does that mean we cannot be a the uil?

they saw this coming. but for the first time how will be handled this? and to say very quietly is okay. you can have a black players and compete in the uil but there were some schools with them played the team said they had black player so you still had that going on. but as that integration starts to go closer uil starts to think about we have to make a change in that constitution it is the added to the constitution to remove the word white to

basically any school. so it 1967 the uil merged but it is not a merger is a hostile takeover. [laughter] because what happens is they had 500 member schools now not all of them have football teams but they were all over the state so with the integration native the merger black schools go way. they admonish them a there is known -- white students going to black schools actually they were bused. with the incredible black coaches and black teachers the best of the best lost their jobs and other coaches

lost their jobs so i saw the assistant coaches a lot of them were tired some became administrators like texarkana but that was the situation so you have the so-called merger of these two leagues but there is nothing left of what existed there five schools did you step with booker t. washington and then dallas lincoln and dallas washington there the old ones that had a legacy left. i went to my 50th recently.

[laughter] it was very sad. i cannot believe what i was seeing because that were the football team that italic it had 25 players on the team. twenty-five. so basically those schools have noticeably declined and the programs have declined and they're trying to close those schools as well. i am pretty sure we will boxy any legacy for the of black high-school s and the wonderful history that they had. >> i remember stories about schools with they were ordered to integrate, they took all the trophies and ribbons to the double -- a

dog and give the through the but -- through the doorway and said starter over a lot of those schools had devoted alumni that wanted to preserve that history and a lot of that was thrown away they did find some things in dumpsters and a lot of things is an closet's growing dust and cobwebs like flags and trophies the and uniforms of lot of that was just broadway. the brocade through saying we need to try to preserve some of this they did a pretty good job but you write most of that was thrown away.

there is a coaches' association of houston and they have preserved a lot of that history they had on display in is now closed but one of the things that's really excited me to write the book is ted years ago i went to my first coaching association banquet so every sold several they would recognize former coaches and players. and a lot of these guys had never bed recognized. so for two minutes they could stand there to say this is what i did. thank you. no one had ever asked them

to tell their story or who they were or what they had done and again in the smith family six of those are former football hall there really came from nothing but the pdil gave them their moment and it was just so moving and touching to be there to see them have their moment. i was pretty resolved but after attending a couple. [applause]

>> i have to ask that i've talked to a lot of people primarily white people with white the administrators that consistently tell me integration that they love football morrow they in segregation and we're to agree to that?. >> in a way i would. this survey have had this conversation with the once. over the last decade that like the white coaches secretly salivated about having the black talent. all of the athleticism and speed and power the pdil was wide open so the athletes were incredible my classmate

who played the of oakland raiders three-time super bowl wide receiver he was the first so glibly in texas to run the 92nd hundred yard dash that record lasted as long as it took them to set up the next event. [laughter] then robinson from wichita falls 9.1 seconds in the'' 100-yard dash. so they wanted that speed in those coaches all of a sudden all of sudden you see the speed and athleticism a lot of the coaches could not wait to have that talent so whatever the rules were are in segregation i think they

were glad to see that happen and but on the other hand, hand,, there was a disrespect for the black coaches perot lot of the white coaches we will give you some time to catch up because we go europe behind it coaching and basically you don't know how to approach you desolate the guys play. said the first season there is a meeting in houston and the plight of the meeting was to tell the black coaches can space tobacco little bit? because they were beating the competition 60 / zero. [laughter] they were witting very easily. but then integration comes

along a lot of life coaches were glad to see that and what of the things that happened there would go to the coaches' meetings. sometimes they would go to but not have a voice. sir they would talk like i got me one. they got a black superstar and were glad to get to the point. >> tell me quickly space of the two best teams? [laughter] >> probably the best is more of the lobbyists so to speak

the is the fighting night lights and then jackie decade-long. server there was that team to be politically correct and will say everybody else. [laughter] but two teams stood out. coach charles brown 196513 and o one the state championship and five of six seasons they won their district and competed. >> it is time to answer -- to open the floor for

questions. >> i will us under the understanding with two state to be in ships and my high-school miller high school was the first racially integrated team to win the championship by recruiting and johnny roland who turned out to be rookie of the year they have led big in trying to picture of him. the father of my best friend went to coach at miller and said if you go there i will guarantee a state football

off to begin shipping your senior year in berlin and five other players transferred over to beat wichita falls with the first racially integrated team i'm glad you mentioned that. [laughter] >> that savior corpus christi had three state champions because that catholic school. >> i have two questions what you consider to be the of violate? was that the '50s sorry the '60s? maybe there is more money is in the black community that were there any small screws that were successful because it is very easy to look at

dallas so with is the of a highlight of the '50s or the '60s were any successful during pbil?. >> there were to a but livingston was probably the best in east texas. livingston one close to bns once they won 73 days when competing for the playoffs. but i would say that era that stands out to me beecher they try to relate

to the black high-school is they were feeders. it is a relationship if you go to a black high-school then a black college so the duty of that was he graduated and then go back to the home town to become teachers and coaches so in the 1950's as the golden era in general i the north there are more resources are ready necessarily but better players that came down in that era. >> i know there is some great rivalries in the state but has there anything ben

like back in the '50s? i think they played in thanksgiving?. >> yes. dryness many as 40,000 fans. but talk about playing in the stadium the only seeded 30,000. but the finance -- the field had standing room only around the field. because it was the second and third black high schools to open in houston. so you have this community where most of the people though each other. they are families that all

good to those schools together so it was the gave across the country largest highest -- a high-school football event throughout the '50s and '60s. >> ru undertaking be comprehensive oral history of the players and coaches?. >> [laughter] yes. in the course of researching the book and also the work with preview we are really trying to keep to the history in terms of oral history. to talk about what was left at the schools i was

disappointed but nobody ever told the story to keep as much of that as i can. >> base for europe broke. i grew up in texas cyrus of those that were attending. [laughter] but then when they finally

integrated to say we'll. >> host: a great football team. [laughter] >> as long as black college. seven halftime of the second quarter starts to fill up in the stands because the figures were so excited. so halftime was a very big deal. >> emited bring it to the texas high school hall of fame mean joe greene will last year so first of all, your reaction? the field there is material there and

gore have potential to go?. >> without a doubt some of those have never been recognized at all. so the texas high school football hall of fame with that is only the last 10 or 15 years of i am not mistaken with the pro football hall of fame so that is the beginning or the

continuation. >> valid forward to reading your book but the latest player that we have never heard of?. >> cry like a guy that played that livingston. to be back at prairie view and those people had never heard of that but coach payton went on at beaumont as a basketball coach. the great football player. >> ibm's curious whether the

football games on thursday and not friday? was there a reason?. >> the primary reason was think about this, every town in texas had a black school and a white school. most of them have black schools sub had to commute from other communities but in terms of the ball they share the stadium. so that initial set up white schools of friday night's were even someone tuesday's. said you could say it is logistics' who got to use the public school stadium. >> we are out of time. [applause]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations]

. >> one proposal is ignored. it was pretty simple proposal. remember the goal is to get north korea to freeze the weapons and missile systems so one proposal is to extend their offer to do that. that sounds simple. they propose to freeze those nuclear weapons systems in the u.s. instantly rejected it for you cannot blame them on trial because obama did the same thing the same offer was presented in 2015 and the obama administration and still be rejected because it calls for the quid pro quo that says the return the united states should put an end to

threatening military maneuvers are north korea's borders which happen to include the b-52s flying your the of border. maybe americans to remember very well but north korea has a memory not too long ago when north korea was flat and literally by a an american bombing literally i really urge people to read the official american military histories there are reviews describing this but what they describe very vividly you was the sworn in targets what can we do? we decided to attack could balaam's it was a war crime

people were paying for that at nuremberg but then comes the static legal description of the bombing and the huge flow of water which was wiping out valleys to destroy a rice crop board which asians survival ball with exultation you really have to read it to appreciate there. so when these b-52s fly to their border threatening military maneuvers they are upset about it. strange people and they continued to develop what they see as a potential deterrent to protect the regime and the country from

destruction. this has nothing to do what you think about the government is the worst government in human history but still they are the facts that exist. so why is the united states and willing to except to an agreement which would end the immediate threats of destruction against north korea, and in return free up those weapons and missile systems? i will leave that up to you it is bipartisan this case. could negotiations go? but there is a history of the have time to go through it but it is interesting beginning in 1993 and declension -- under clinton made a deal with israel to

show up -- to ship to the middle east. so in turn israel read recognize north korea and the clinton administration except that they pressured israel to withdraw but north korea responded by firing their first intermediate range missile. so there was actual containment in 2005 when north korea would completely dismantle its nuclear weapons and missile systems. this is in return from a non-aggression pact from the united states than to the threats but is simply -- is

to leave the administration and dismantle the consortium in immediately imposed pressure to block north korean financial transactions including perfectly legitimate trade so they started to produce missiles and nuclear weapons again. that is in the record although way through. so maybe the most horrible regime in human history but the fact of the matter is that it does want to survive

and carry out economic development that but you cannot do in any significant way with this very scarce resources so they have considerable incentive incentive, including survival to continue the process of reacting in that tit-for-tat fashion when they lower tensions or raise tensions then they go on with their plans so how was that a possibility? the was the the bad article by a u.s. professor so occasionally it is a strange possibility of letting the north koreans do exactly what we want them to do pro

sometimes it is mentioned but pretty much dismissed. but there are similar questions to raise about iran. in quebec gradus sponsor of terrorism in adana and ellen. who -- but is giving a huge flood of arms to the saudi arabian allies are registering the country. it was a huge humanitarian crisis. huge numbers of people killed with massive starvation planning the port

which is the only source. if you look around the world there are many others like this. but very strikingly, there is one lesson that you discover when you carefully look at the historical record. what is described about ruth correa is pretty typical. over and over there are possibilities of diplomacy and negotiation which might not succeed they can be sure but it does look pretty promising which are abandoned or dismissed without comment so from that 1953 moment stood of related

they face the first serious threat to its security. probably since the war of 1812. they could have been avoided that is pretty good evidence but the possibility was literally not even considered and case after case looking at the historical record from the perspective to basket that a general comment has some validity of a fee if you do you will see it has considerable merit

. >> so it comes to the questions i was going to ask so i would like to say is so working on the campaign but i was down in losses angeles

there is a fantastic library now run by the government and i found out early in the middle of the summer i called my jury ross initially picked up. that was so wonderful you really are a wonderful editor always available and i asked for gregory the there was that phrase but that is sorry he is always but famously he takes fantastic books but then they would publish them to become national the sellers.

[inaudible] but then he was kicked off after writing down into the chappaquiddick river. so years later, this is all of the record. so then later it is published in 27 weeks on the best-seller lists then of 2017 when the trump era takes that hysteria. [laughter] . . . .