exploration.

[inaudible conversations] >> good morning. the subcommittee on space will come to order. without objection, the chair's authorized to declare a recess of the subcommittee at any time. welcome to today's hearing, title "an update on nasa exploration systems develop." i now recognize mist for an open statement. more and asia means expanding our reach as humans. it is a civilization and as country the arm opt our nation to explore space is a strategic imperative. the ability to carry out this critical strategic endeavor will rely on a few key capables. from the launch, the space launch system in order to push

beyond low earth orbit we minimum fish developing the orion capsule in order to operate in deep space. and we must upgrade our ground infrastructure to support a rejuvenated and an expand exploration agenda. the nasa goal in the nasa transition authorizing argentina is to extend human presence through the solar system. the space launch system in orion are the strategic capabilities that will allow in enable humans and robots to accomplish this goal. sls and orion will enable u.s. astronauts to return to the moon for the first time since gene cernan left his daughter's name in on the moon in 197 2. as vice president pence said in his inaugural meeting of the re-established national space council, we will return american astronauts to the moon.

not only to leave hint fingerprints and flag but to bua foundation we need send americans to mar and yo. sls and orion their tip of the spear that will lead that return. the commercial sector can contribute by supplying necessary services and providing augmenting capable but sls and orion are irreplaceable strategic assetes necessary for missions to the moon, mars and beyond. one of the first major laws that president trump signed was the nasa transition authorization act of 2017. the bill, which originated with this committee, directed nasa to stay the course with sls and eye ripe and re-affirmed congressional and presidential direction for nasa to utilize a stepping stone approach to exploration, which allows for a return to the moon. i wholeheartedly support the

administration's call to return to the moon. this committee has received testimony time and again that the moon is the appropriate next destination for our space program. returning to the moon does not have to mean delaying a mission to mars. on the contrary, it is a logical step that enables exploration of the red planet and beyond. and while i'm excited by the promise of how strategic assets like sls and oo orion to return to the move. all three exploration system elements, sls, orion, and ground systems, have experienced delays and overruns. this year has certainly challenged the program. last year, it was hit by a tornado. in august, texas and florida

were hit by hurricanes. a couple of years ago the vertical assembly facility foundation was not reinforced, requiring a rebuild. this year complications with friction stir weld pins resulted in poor welds on the core stage, all of this add up. it appears that though the knew issues with tornadoes and hurricanes and welding will cost roughly a year of delay. depending on whether the europeans deliver the service module on time for orion, the delay may be greater. congress needs to understand where the program is today, what costs schedule and performance deliverables can the agency commit to? what is the plan going forward? how will nasa manage future issues to ensure long-term programs sustainability? we are not out of the wood yet on the program but we can see

edge of the forrest. we bending metal, writing software code and integrating hardware. given a program of this magnitude this is no small feat. particularly given the challenges the program faces under the last administration. ...

as a went back

october 192017 the full duration with one of the flight engines. they shouldn't have undertaken the development program on this scale in the infrastructure this is also necessitated by the critical capabilities needed for the u.s. leadership and deep

space exploration. this is not the prime contractors are doing over 1,000 suppliers spread across every state in the program response to unpredictable appropriations and the office of inspector general also identified concerns with the ability to meet the projected launching needs. in the april 2017 report the gao found that the activities making progress scheduled pressure is escalating the challenges and

continue to cause delays. gao characterizes the planned launch date as november, 2018. part of what i have to get out of today's hearing is a better understanding of what that plan and a day of launch date as well as the opportunity to continue examining the issues. congress should use for measuring progress as made by both the sos and the orion program and in establishing a production. and those sending humans to mars as directed in the 2017 nasa transition authorization act.

in closing, mr. chairman, you often heard me talk about growing up in the middle of the space x. with much of the apollo mission and how that inspired me along with a generation of kids to think about the sciences and beyond. what we are talking about in terms of the systems and the reestablishment of the leadership in the space program as we start to think about going back to the moon and going back into deep space. that does have the ability to inspire another generation of kids and reinvigorate our desire to explore the curiosity about the universe around us. one of those inspirational figures of the nations program is actually with us today. playing on the shuttle and lived on the international space station. we thank you for your service and appreciate you being a role model for millions of young

people. i look forward to testimony and yield back. >> thank you. i couldn't agree more. now we recognize the chairman of the full committee, mr. smith. >> thank you mr. chairman. i appreciate the comment commend the ranking member's comments as well. congress supported by systems programmer for years. we've shown the support involved with the funding from one administration to the next. recent hurricanes and tornadoes have slowed localized properties but many of the problems are self-inflicted. it's very disappointing to hear about the delays caused by poor execution when the u.s. taxpayer has invested so much in these programs. for the last eight years, congress defended the space launch system and the vehicle from attempts at cancellation on the proposed budget cuts.

the exploration systems development now is nearly $4 billion a year. the government accountability office reported last spring the first launch likely will be delayed from late 2018 to 2019. delays with the european service model module also can push the same. it was to upgrade the platform and the inspector reported this week the development of exploration systems is one of the most significant challenges facing nasa and the highlight of the problems facing all components of the system and ground systems. if the delay is continuing costs rise and if the technical challenges arise, no one should

assume the u.s. taxpayers or the representatives will tolerate this from ever. the more setbacks that they face, the more support builds for other options. nasa suffered for decades with program cancellations that have delayed the exploration goals. as the exploration systems progress from development to production operations and maintenance, the contractors must bring down the cost and guarantee the deadlines are met.

congress needs to have confidence in the exploration service contractors which i don't believe that we have now. that confidence is ebbing. if it is left much further, nasa and its contractors will have a hard time regaining their credibility. thank you mr. chairman. and i will go back. now let me introduce the witnesses. the associate or a human exploration director at nasa. thethey managed manage this base portfolio since 2011. they received a bachelors of science and engineering from purdue university and masters of science and mechanical engineering from the university

of toledo. the second witness today is doctor sandra magnus, the executive director of the american institute of aeronautics and astronautics. in addition to her role, doctor magnus is a former nasa astronaut and prior to that work as a practicing engineer in the aerospace industry. she received a degree in physics as well as a masters degree in electrical engineering. she also earned a phd in engineering georgia tech and i now recognize mr. courson mire e to present his testimony. >> we are living in an amazing time in human spaceflight. crew members living onboard the international space station forr more than 17 consecutive years.

it's beyond the current space industries. further use these new companies and researchers have never seen the benefits of space to the products and processes. the space station is becoming a place for business to expand, grow and gain competitive advantage over the company is not doing research in space they've now accepted business operating in space will become normal and accepted. they are now adding a third. the agency is in the process of acquiring services and certifying systems to transport the crew. these companies are busy manufacturing and certifying the systems and the partners are helping to build a strong commercial space industry and allow us to focus our efforts on deep space exploration which brings us to the subject of

today's hearing. exploration systems development. the space launch system rocket, the overriding deep space capsule with the service module and ground system programs are undergoing manufacturing and certification in preparation for the first integrated flight. just think about it. there is more human spaceflight hardware in production today than in any time in the united states since apollo. as a nation, we are building three different group equals, ryan thomas r. winer and dragon. one for deep space and to the low earth orbit. getting to this point was not easy and there are still challenges ahead. however, we need to pause and reflect on this amazing time. as we pursue human exploration further into the solar system, our expiration teams are building more than a rocket and spacecraft for a single flight. rather, we are building a flexible, sustainable system that will be used for decades to come.

with this approach, we can incrementally upgrade and enhance our exploration systems to accomplish a variety of missions, crude and i'm craving deep space. we are also building a system designed witdesigned with a andg techniques with a lower cost than previous designs. the work performed is an application to other programs in aerospace. for example, hundreds of requests for information have been transferred from o'ryan to the commercial spacecraft into development in low earth orbit. the work of the self reaction friction will have application beyond the sos. wondering the exploration and the current flight article have all been built for a ryan.

the launchpad is during completion and all engines and controllers are ready for flight. 17 parishes development tests arare completed for qualificati. should tests are complete with four more open. the data from these tests are helping the commercial group partners with the tests also. the amount of work completed for the system is large and it is documented in my written testimony. further, this government investment and sos and over im is benefiting all. we need to b be careful to not focus on a single launch date projection but rather, take time to examine the quality, quantity and future benefit of the work completed. this deep examination will reveal the value of the work completed from the nation. while the review shows the

launch date of june 2020 is possible. of the earlier launch date is reasonable and challenges the teams to stay focused on task without creating undue pressure. the earliest possible launch date the cost even with the june date remained in the 15% limit and slightly above the ground systems operations. exploration mission number two is scheduled or not adversely impacted by the schedule and as discussed earlier the work complete shows outstanding progress. we welcome the questions and thank you for this opportunity to discuss the amazing work comp which by the men and women of nasa and the contractor partner teams. thank you. >> i now recognize doctor magnus

for five minutes for the testimony. >> tram, ranking member and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to address you today. the development system off the base launch system and the crew vehicle or the major milestones for the space program and i would not understate their importance. however i would like to address the view related to the current state over the spaceflight program and come upon the direction. the idea of what is possible in space has been in transition over the last decade when talking with the public by using model to describe the ecosystem that is today's human spaceflight program and i prefer you to figure on the tv monitors anand have you imagined a bubble or a balloon that expanding service represents the expansion of human activities since the apollo era for the last 40 years, the surface of the bubble has expanded only to the low earth orbit and that initial phase and it's remained there. getting this period, the government was the driving force behind the expansion of the activities and this has led to

the simulation o deterioration , technology and management operations in this environment. now private industry has become interested in engaging more practically independently and as open space. for the foreseeable future expansion beyond the government driving the investment nasa and the government are no governmeno develop beyond. it's beyond these two questions, what are the technologies for knowledgtechnologies andknowledt the government wants to have available for broad dissemination to the industry 50 years from now and number two, what are they capable of using services that.

the core concept_by the questions is the fact that there is a need for the government investment in activity at the leading-edge exploration during leading edge of exploration during the initial phase and the fact that the industry will sooner or later reap the benefit of the investment to create and establish the capabilities and business centers in the development phase. i would comment we are not ready in the human spaceflight but you see that happening over the last decade and satellite industry. we are not ready for that phase and this is the dynamic that is unfolding. the model i discussed is a powerful one and it is placed strategically and it brings me

to the important point and this is what we have heard many tim times. the purpose for the long-term is the nature that it takes time, to make advancements and establishes the space council provides an opportunity to create this approach. to be effective the resource has been to be allocated and this is something that is challenged in the past and continues today. when i joined the agency in 1996, nasa received approximately seven tenths of a penny from every tax dollar. fundamentally they are constrained by limits to control the expense of the budget as

well and for the civil workforce whether the science, skill sets in some cases the management across the agency to execute a long-term strategic program and constrained budget environment effectively and successfully nasa must be given the ability to make decisions and take actions in these areas. to the adequate resources and stability of those resources to developing space hardware is complex and challenging as you have heard today. a program with the multi-year budget can absorb more expensive engineering decisions coming to the result will be lower operational costs and has overall net savings for the life of the program. the current budgeting process and lack of the budgetary environment prohibits this kind of comprehensive approach to be used. the transition that is occurring in houston and engage with this has been the goal for decades and the expansion and economic development, the arrival of the first immigrants and settlers to the westward expansion across the continent he faced challenges, forged new paths and

overcome obstacles. as we expand into space the next frontier, i'm confident we can tap into the same spirit and energy. again, thank you for the opportunity to address this body and thank you for your continued support of the nation's program i look forward to answering any questions that you may have. >> thank you very much. i would now recognize and appreciate the witness's testimony. the chair recognizes himself for questions. i was running late this morning and didn't have a chance to see you before the hearing started, great to have you here and we appreciate it. one of the primary purposes of the transition authorization act of 2017 was continuity of purpose and expressing staying the course on the program development so as not to delay an american space exploration any longer can each of you discussed the importance and how you balance that a against the

program management and discipline, we will start with you. >> i think that it is important that we have a common vision of what we are doing as we move forward so we can build the systems that can support that vision and we have done that with sos and o'ryan we've built a system that is allowing us to move human presence into the solapresence into thesolar systs applications for around the moon can support activities on the moon and lunar activities and it can also support development beyond. the same with sos. the rocket is designed to be a heavy launch capability and can support the human missions around the moon and also be absolutely critical for the class missions such as the mission to go to the outer planets it can reduce the time by 50% to the outer planets. so, we tried to build up the pieces of key infrastructure

that enables the vision and allows us to fit within this architecture and framework that we'vwe have been given but keepg the consistency of purpose or general direction we're moving forward is extremely important to us starting and stopping is very difficult in our industry. >> okay. starting and stopping the industry is not healthy. the continuity piece is important. as a nation we have a short attention span and we end up hurting ourselves into was already mentioned earlier there were a lot of programs to cancel over the years. if you look back you think of the dedication and commitment they had over a decade and longer to commit and execute the program and that is what you need in the human spaceflight a ten, 15, 20 year program and you need to be able to stick with it. i thin think it's exciting thate

committee's interest in this topic and i think that the oversight is important to kind of keep people focused and i think that is an important key as well. but you have to be able to stick to this program and funded appropriately so that these can be made through the trade-offs and expenses. >> excellent. thank you very much. how would the delay in the first launch until no earlier than december 2019 impact the scheduled launch date as an internal data managing as well as the date it has committed to. neither of these now change? >> and purpose of the exploration mission to the first crew mission, sometimes the scheduled way even if it went all the way to channel image does not really induct where we

are. there is a constraint for the mobile launch platform is the facility that the rocket launch is off of. it needs to be modified between first and second flight to allow for the upper stage and there is a 33 month amount of time needed for that so that is what keeps them tied together but right now they do not induct where we can launch the first flight at this point. but again we need to be careful about and watch for that and potentially discuss whether it is strategic to have another available to avoid the time. but that is the current. >> do you have anything to add to that? how well the slip impact the cost of the program? >> it is surprising to some that it didn't change that much.

we are building more than just one single flight. so, as the work is completed on the first launch in the first flight, when the work is completed it can be sent off to the side and the team can go off and start working on the next element. so today we have multiple pieces of hardware for the missions across the sequence. there is no impact they are. to bear. we can support whatever mission they need and we will figure out whether it occurs after. we are going to go on to the gentleman from california. >> in your opening statement,

you talked about the importance of having a strategic vision and we saw that when president kennedy challenged us in the 1960s to put a man on the moon and the second. my colleagues from colorado says by 2033. we ought to commit to putting a man on mars -- it does give the public the sense of what we are working for and that perspective is worth thinking about in the mission it gives us the chance to think about okay if we are going to the moon hell does that help us then think about how we are going to go and take the next step. so in that context is it worth thinking about going to deeper

space. i am sensing that as we do this mission, we are learning a lot and reestablishing supply-chain and reestablishing a workforce and talent base that will make it easier is that correct? to test the vehicles and the hardware to make sure they are operating to the levels they need to be when we put the crew on board, anonboard, and i thine this move outward, we go to the moon when we can return if something goes wrong in several days for five days. on the station today we can be back in about an hour or hour and a half. when we go to mars the are not committed for multiple months so i think you see the progression and taking more risk, learning to operate in a more challenging in ireland, and as the watergate and the more challenging environment, you need the systems to support operating in that environment, so it is kind of a natural setting stone and movement as we use the moon as a

proving ground in the training ground and developments to the area we can build concepts, processes, procedures and hardware that allow us to go to the class missions in the future. >> and as we move on to send the crew, are we also know conceptually thinking about em three? >> yes. we are building continually to challenge what we can do. the biggest advantage is we can not only carry the crew but a substantial habitation of peace with us on the em three and they will be able to go into that module and begin a presence around the moon which is against and starting to break that tie back to the home planet and getting us ready to move into the space so you can see where each mission of the past mission if we take stronger challenges and we pushed the team more and gain the experience and it feeds

directly into the next missions of each one built on each other. >> on the slide that you presented, you've also showed the sector falling behind so can you describe how you see the private and international community kind of falling behind as the government starts to push further and further how the private sector and international community can continue to support that. >> that goes back to the national country to strategy, because ideally what you would want to do from the national viewpoint is figured out what are the technologies and capabilities that you want to invest in from the government viewpoints so that those knowledges and pieces of technology are available for everybody if you can encourage the companies that are interested in defending it from the national viewpoint as well when you think about international peace, what are

those technologies and capabilities that we want to take the lea lead and how do wet it to be transport experts? they decided to focus on robotics, for example and then understanding the concept of those priorities, you can establish how do you want to bring the international partners in and help for companies to establish the leverage that they need to build into their businesses. so you have to start with a big picture that has to be a little bit more governmentwide and nationally focused. >> let me make sure that i am thinking about this correctly. when we thought about the return to the moon, i can visualize the day where they focused on the science mission and that they may look at the various launch vehicles that are available in the commercial market as opposed to having to build their own vehicles, so okay contract with companies to the launch vehicle and they will look at the various landings of commercial vehicles and say we are in a contract with this lunar lander

vehicle. vehicle. is that thif that's the right wk about this? if you have the tool docs to be the box again and using the satellite business as a model, there are economic activities going on where the government purchases the services and there are government activities as well so you need a mix and it needs to be driven by the strategic view for the country and what kind of capabilities do you want to create and make sure that you have going forward so there is a place for all of it in the right strategy. >> i am out of time and yield back. >> now the gentleman from alabama. >> thank you mr. chairman. the production of the element is currently driving the space launch system program as scheduled. the program is combining welding techniques and materials specifically the thickness of

the middle that hasn't been used before while establishing new production techniques the program has faced numerous setbacks as it is developing the processes and correcting defects. how confident is the program in its contract to have gained enough knowledge to avoid these setbacks and delays for the future flight hardware? >> we've met the challenges of the cells reacted thicker materials. we understand now how to do that. we will still probably continue to refine the welding techniques come up with a basic understanding is in place now and we know how to do the welding. as i said in my opening remarks, that's also important to the industry as a whole. they paved the way by allowing others to take the larger thickness of the materials. >> if you could, what steps does the programming of contractor have in place to avoid mistakes such as welding tool changes

that shut down the production? again we are carefully monitoring all of that activity. we are looking at the ways we can do an inspection. we knew fairly soon and immediately that there was a problem when it occurred, so the good news was we had tools and techniques to find that effect to presen present the front extg into the flight hardware and that was good. the bad thing was we didn't fully understand we have done smaller samples and smaller welding test but we hadn't done any of the magnitude or the scale that we are trying to do at the four vehicles i think we need to be prepared as we build schedules going forward to note that these first-time things we have never done before of the magnitude that has never been done before we need a little bit of extra time the first time through and not be overly optimistic in the schedule, so we will build some time to do those kind of things to make sure that we don't have that same kind of problem moving forward and we've identified those areas in the future where we see these first-time items we

will put in place processes and procedures to what has occurred in the past. >> the course page element that is driving the sos program schedules still has to complete a major integrate testify here, which is called the green test run that will have a core stage integrated with its main engine. the tanks will be filled with cryogenic fuel for the first time and will be fired for about 500 seconds. the agents have been tested individually but not altogether, which creates a different heat, acoustic and vibration environment and this will be the first for the stage. what areas cause th caused the t concern during this test, cryogenic fuel piping, material stresses, etc.? >> the teams are analyzing that test in both its details to make sure we are prepared for the test and one thing we learned out of the last scheduled problem is we will have a

dedicated team so w suite of a.. accommodated and take into account everything that we have occurred in the test. concerns are that when the rocket is designed to come up it's not designed to stay in one location so there could be some heat that builds back into the systems and we've been analyzing that in wind tunnels and looking to make sure we are prepared for that. we've done extensive work to look at modeling and testing of how we do the flows and the most efficient offense looks at schedules. but we see that test coming up after the core stage it's delivered is one of the key tests and risks. we will be fully prepared for the test when it occurs. >> was potential damage or testing for that might occur during a nominal test in the nature such as insulation

damage, boxes coming loose. >> all those things you described i think the biggest concern is probably thermal and potential thermal damage to the bottom of the vehicle and what needs to be repaired will have procedures in place. we will have alternate technique is to fix things if they occur during the testing so we are actively working in area and will have detailed test plans and medications for anything that may arise. >> mr. chairman, i will yield back. >> the gentleman from virginia. >> thank you very much for being with us today. if i can be parochial for just a minute. from the mid-atlantic regional spaceport to the international space station with important supply is for astronauts living and working in space and to my wonderful staff going to watch

the launch. i'm proud of th the role that he played in supporting from wallace. aside from cape canaveral, the only ones that support the statiostation in support of the national security missions including the recently announced interim mission next year and just last month and emerging launch startup there were three initial launches that will occ occur. virginia puts nearly $200 million on the spaceport. it's been a unique successful public-private partnership between nasa and virginia. so as we look at the future space obligations, can you discuss how wallace can contribute to the planning and operations? >> we can see them playing the key role in the development of the space station and i think it is also interesting to see how the team is using that in creative ways.

as you see it completes its cargo delivery mission had been iand thenit comes off of the spe station and into another for its own uses afterwards. we have looked at the combustion experiments on the space station or onboard vehicle prior to their reentry to understand what fire detection should b be like and what fire suppression should be, so it is exciting to see the orbital team in creative ways to use the vehicles with a post-mission after the mission is done and in creative ways of building other folks in so i think that we will continue to see a large number of launches out of virginia supporting the ready and growing in that area and it is also known as the control center. you will notice some of the other things being done in between flights, so you will see the investment in the launch site as well. >> thank you very much. and your testimony, you said coming and you wrote i quote the

united states needs a comprehensive national space strategy accompanied by the continuous long-term commitment for its execution. do we not have that already? and where are the holes in it? >> sun came out during the national space council meeting. nasa has a concrete strategy for how they want to continue giving exploration. you know that initial phase of the bubble and they have been working with the private sector and the developed stage but there is a lot of work still respect to licensing discussion about the on orbit peace and discussion about the taxes so there's all kinds of the other pieces when you talk about what you have to do to develop the healthy economy or stable economy or help one get off the ground. it's not just about the rockets and habitats. there is a legal framework and regulations and things like this, so then you also have to fold in a piece of what do we

want from our international cooperation and encourage and private industry, how did he want to help the innovation succeed and make sure that the government has a mission is focused on the mission so there's all these pieces that i think are out there that it's not clear that they've all been brought together comprehensively. >> to connect, as you know, one of the ongoing debates that we hear on the committee is do we go directly to mars or t the mon first as a launching part and in your testimony you talked about leading the return of humans to the moon long-term exploration. so is it already decided that we go to the moon first? >> i think as we described earlier, the steppingstone approach where we use it as a training ground to move further out is a good approach and i think that is consistent with the authorization language we have received an objection from

congress and the administration so it is a steppingstone approach of where we used it to look at things and learn skills that it is with the ultimate goal towards mars. >> a quote from your ten testimony into the regular use of the continued resolutions through the government shutdowns and about lac the lack of the et prohibits this kind of comprehensive space trade to be used i just want to say thank you for putting that in writing with the workforce and the government contracting community and military that everyone agrees with. >> now i recognize the gentleman from florida if you've are calling this informative meeting and i want to thank the witnesses, both of you it is always a pleasure to hear from you and gain your insight.

would you say this is the top priority right now x. >> the way that i describe it as living presence in the solar system, but it is one of the steppingstone approach us as we move human presence into the solar system. >> as a priority basis how would you prioritize things? >> we need to be careful and i don't pick destinations. i talk about building more of a capability or the expanding bubble that is described where we kind of move out into the solar system and bring the commercial sector of the economy with us as we move, so i'm looking for a much longer strategic vision than this particular single destination and i see this as a continuum of gaining the skills that we need to have as we move further into the system. >> i appreciated hearing you use the word steppingstone in

reference to the mail in just a few moments ago in answer to that question and i think congress can have expressed that they like pretty much everything you do to be a steppingstone. that ought to be a goal and you know and i know that everything is a priority. nothing is a priority and so i would really like to hear him acknowledge that as a top priority and everything we do is in fact a steppingstone to reaching that goal for a number of reasons. are you familiar with the flight program, he is my constituent and i heaconstituentsand i hearn frequently. what's you take a moment to share with me to plan but you are pursuing is superior to the plan that he suggests? >> again i think in the world we often like to contrast things and show how they are different and we try to pick one or the other. if you look at the approaches that we have laid out where we

have potentially some kind of a platform around the vicinity of the moon and be used as a staging ground to go to mars, that has similar aspects to the concepts mr. aldrin talks about. it doesn't continually cycle that we are using the moon potentially into the orbit is a staging position to go to mars rather than returning directly back to the earth, so there are pieces of what he described in the plan maybe not as much as he would like. maybe he would like to plan the way that he described it with a large cycle in place. but i think that we look to the community to get good ideas from everyone. we look at academia and the astronauts and the commercial industry. we want to take all of those great ideas and put them together to build a strategic plan that we have been providing to move forward. i do not see it as one or another is his or our superior but there are advantages and

disadvantages of a hybrid between the two that might be the best solution for all of us. >> that is a pretty good answer and i would assume funding approvals are a big part of that. >> definitely. we are constrained by the financial environment. we are giving the adequate resources to need the league could do what we need to do what we need to reflect that in the planning up to build a program that requires more funding and is available and that is a concern as we do the planning. >> i would like to comment we have to quit talking about either the moon or mars. as it is mentioned it isn't or committees and. if we are thinking carefully about how we are moving that -- >> i think everyone in the room understands we want to go for a number of reasons.

at one time there was quite a bit of opposition to it and the people that were opposed to sit usitbeen there done that have py much acknowledged that to go further or that is the smartest way to do it. >> and if we can do it in a way that as we bring the industry behind us they can expand that developers ou out to the moon ad the government continues to grow and leading that charge if you will, so there is a smart way to do this where you pass through the moon and do the things you need to build the operational capability to go to mars and then you bring the economic system behind you so it's stable and provides the additional capability to continue. >> thank you, doctor. >> the gentleman from colorado. >> i will put up by prop for one

second. to be parochial, and three days or seven days from the air force base, we will launch the gpss that was built in colorado upon the united launch alliance rocket that was also built in colorado, so each of us from an economic point of view and also from the point of view of pride has a stake in the space program, period. and all of us up here are pretty much on the same page when it comes to getting us to mars. i don't care how we get there, just get their by 2033 if not a lot earlier. so, my job whether it is a steppingstone to the moon or we use a hyperlink or somebody comes up with a beaming us over to mars i just want one of the astronauts on mars.

that's the main vehicle we have to do this now. you've heard me talk about this and obviously our job is to get utah funding so you can have the constancy of purpose on a 16 year project and we don't have that yet. and it's our responsibility to do that but for me i am a result oriented guy. i don't know what the best engineering and science and exactly how to do that that's your responsibility. i've got to try to find those resources so that you can do that. but others up here are more accounted types and want to make sure we hit the benchmarks and milestones as do you. you are engineers and that is how you operate.

so, the anxiety some fee fuel we already missing as kind of a milestone early in the 16 year journey is something i think we all have to take seriously. but our responsibility is to provide you with the resources. let me ask a couple of basic questions. in a sort of developing this program, how do you see us adding international partners? has there been any discussions with other countries about partnering with us in a major project like this? there's been quite a bit disgust, there's been the global exploration roadmap published next january that kind of provides a framework moving forward of which is consistent with everything that we are building. they see o'reilly in and what you're getting with the space station as a part of the

overarching framework. the activities are out of the moon where we talk about the potential crew activity and the international partners that are extremely interested in that house was the commercial industry we are working with both commercial industry and international partners. as it was described earlier, i think this was a team activity where they do the peace and we have the space launch system that can take 45 metric ton is to the vicinity of the moon but then we can use the commercial launch vehicles for ten routinely to the vicinity of the moon so it doesn't have to be every flight. the rockets you talked about from colorado, the launch alliance and what is being done with the origin of those can all be used as a part of the architecture of nevada. they have a drop test the 15th of this month to look at vehicle coming back. all of that fits together with our interactive framework.

they see how they can participate as being a part of this endeavor. >> in your participation with the associatio association whate in terms of willingness by the private sector as well as outreach to other countries. there's a huge amount of interest to participate in this project in any way shape or form there are a lot of small companies that are engaging in this space that never existed before. there are established companies taking innovative approaches to how they want to engage and there's a lot of energy out there and great ideas. i have no doubt we can do it. internationally, they look to us to provide the vision and energy and drive, not necessarily to be the dictators and correct everybody on what to do but they mentioned the roadmap. there's a lot of enthusiasm to

have the united states this is great you have the vision we all want to take apart its figure out how to do that. we can if we keep it funded. >> now the gentleman from florida. >> thank you very much mr. chairman and it is always a lot of fun to come here and listen to be interesting and intelligent people you bring to these hearings. i have a thousand questions and only five minutes, so i will jump right in. we spoke earlier you know my background as a surgeon so i'm going to ask you questions if i can. what are the special risks or are there special risks in deep space missions that differ from the long duration of earth orbit missions? >> probably the biggest risk that occurs as the rescue radiation and radiation exposure

if it is in deep space. around the earth we are shielded somewhat from the radiation and that is gone so we are going to have to look at the techniques to shield the crew and look at if there's any other techniques we can do in terms of medication and other things to help. it's not an insurmountable problem but it's a problem we need to address that we can't look at as easily around the earth as we would like. >> so you are already opening up new avenues of researchers and life sciences for these deep extended missions. and of course some of that can translate word. >> anything we learn from the astronauts kelly experiments. >> the exciting thing is looking how the genome changes.

it is a microgravity change and can differentiate between. and why certain ones regulated in some way and down regulate when it's supposed to microgravity that is a fascinating research subject. i would have to bring some of the researchers here that are better versed than myself but they can explain to you what they are seeing and it's opened up a whole new line of questioning and this is how i think science and medicine advances the new questioning that you never thought about and you are now exposed to it and it puts into question the basic theory that changes and now you have a brand-new way to solve a problem or do something in the future so this is a very exciting phase. >> we look forward to hearing from that side as well. how does this affect the modifications for the deep space missions that vary from the low earth orbit what are you doing with that to make it more

fathomable? >> the radiation environment again we've got some potential shielding when we took them on the speed to be this space test flight we take it on mission one that will play the radiation fln centers and we will also fly a mockup of a human torso in the capsule and embedded with the radiation monitors to simulate the various organs and then we will look at the radiation on the outside on mission one to gain insight to see if that provides protection but i think that it will be some type of a storm shoulder or radiation shelter design in the future space flight. >> we talked about the long duration. are we going to put animal experiments on the mars missions? >> i don't believe we have any animal missions on the exploration the first mission we just have the instrumentation and the hardware that we could

look at that. we don't have the life-support system there so we would have somtodo some sort of life-suppot system on the flight to accommodate that we are doing significant animal research on board and we have all the basic animal models. can you comment on that? and >> i was on the space station for four and a half months and i felt like the exercise protocols we had were sufficient. i came back with no bone loss density. so i think we've gone back and that is the key issue. we still are learning a lot about what can happen in the radiation environment and i think the ability to do some work around the moon while inform us a little bit more about what he don't know and give new line of inquiry to make

sure we have the bases covered. >> you have an excited and engaged and interested committee, so keep us in your thoughts and keep us informed. thank you very much and i will yield back. >> now recognizing the gentleman from california. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. it is a jump between various events so i will go back and look at the testimony that we have had so far. i am on the foreign affairs committee as well as the science committee and i'm very interested now in what our next major step into space as to what we see as an international goal meaning talking about going to

the moon and establishing a long-term presence on the moon. in the space station we have people from other countries have partnered with us. us. are we planning anything like that for the moon presents? >> guess we are and in fact as we discussed earlier service module that provides the propulsion and life support gases come from the space agency and it's being manufactured by them and this is their contribution in a real way to the first steps in exploration. >> does the administration have plans on this that we need to know about? >> we had a 45 day report action that came out of the space council and continue to work on that and see and refine details

but there's been a general agreement that international support is a good thing for deep space and we will continue to build off of what we've done and look for ways that we can continue the same partnership as we move towards the moon and mars. ..

>> >> and i hope we get a little more details exactly to have more cooperation that we can expect. to accomplish the specific goals with the mars mission. >> we have that expiration due to congress in december then show you those specifics and how we can do those internationally.

>> now like to recognize the gentleman from louisiana. >> i very much appreciated to as we are united in our enthusiasm moving the program for word. i represent louisiana so could you explain this?. >> it is say largest facility with the hydrogen tank and the way and then

there is a spinning rod that is overreacting and with day high a r.p.m. to melt and use those two pieces of aluminum sheeting together. can with those he distortion. and then that is very strong that has been then to be stronger in the past. >> so that it is typically less and allowing those components to be joined

together. >> let me jump forward. as we had discussed earlier as a stepping stone with those landing sites?. >> from that robotic standpoint looking at the apollo missions that is around the equator of the moon. we see water in the now -- in the north and south so if we don't have to carry all resources with us into the solar system we could get water from the moon that could be very interesting. and those of you a bite to investigate so if we can

understand how that to the market. >> with the shelter for a the human presence in one of those major challenges to develop and where they stay last month. in japan aerospace agency discovered a large and stable 300 feet deep and 300 feet wide what they refer to as skylights with the roof of the tube that collapsed and does this change the paradigm what

they might be considering?. >> so to have a structure or location that could be interesting. that is something we need to continue to look at. >>. >> also talk about with that capability. and with that gateway concept. and then to understand what is available. >> so with these underground caverns. that is stated by a reputable scientist so do

your studies concur?. >> i am not familiar or ask someone. >> they give for your continued research. >> so there are several of this. so the recent slip in and with that course stagy issue so what impact the delays of the service module of the europeans on december 2019?

so that doesn't lead to further delays?. >> working extensively with the european space agency. to make sure we can do that from a scheduled sam point. there are some high-pressure helium balls manufactured from the europeans. and to help with activity we actually have the design for that valve to provide for that application. also to get a state department approval to send those technicians to assist the european service module. the delivery date is suppose to be april but maybe we could see that slip them looking at what we could do

downstream. so we may do a simulator. instead of having orion with the european service module but we are well aware of that as a key risk area doing everything that we can but first time manufacturing >> think you very much. as one of the exciting parts is looking and the propulsion system and is well. so with that propulsion especially going into deeper space?. >> so in terms of efficiency

so then with that facility with that proportion to a totally different orbit. and then with that vehicle to move. >> and that is the vantage. >> in the context of the discussions to develop this system the technology that is available for everyone to use and then to advance to take a vintage of that capability. >>. >> karen to study contracts with satellite manufacturers

to see if they would have interest with the next generation of electric propulsion. so that would be enabling the commercial communication satellite industry. the net is beyond where they are today. so they gain directly what we're trying to do and to do that capability. it is a win-win between industry analysts -- and thus. >> mentioning the commercial activities, and what we thought about international cooperation is there the extended moon presents? to include the private sector

we didn't have these companies like speesix or others making their contribution to read expect or commercial involvement in the way to help bring down the cost as well?. >> we certainly have of the next up working with five companies looking at that capability and actively engaged. they are very interested in what they can do with us and then maybe to the international space station. as i described earlier to carry a large mass to the vicinity of the moon that we will definitely use those launch vehicles with all of

those capabilities, all of those will be used to what is interesting looking at this week though those launch and commercial capabilities how we build a plan with all of those? so we put that together into a plan. >> terrific. thank you for that answer. >> this is of broad area participant. >> thanks to the witnesses for this interesting hearing and juror valuable testimony but the record will remain open for two weeks for additional comments in written questions that hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversations]

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