all for coming. >> thank you. [applause] [inaudible conversations] .. >>. [inaudible conversation] good evening everybody, ladies and gentlemen. good evening.

good evening. welcome to pilgrim home met museum, i am donna curtin, executive director of the pilgrim society and pilgrim home museum which is the oldest continuously operating museum in the united states. we are here tonight in the great hall. we opened our doors back in 1824 to display the original possessions of the mayflower pilgrims and artwork and artifacts that tell the story of the english settlers and the people here in early plymouth. i'd like to thank our sponsors, the pine hills with a special presentation this evening. tonight we are here for a new launching of a new history of plymouth and of the pilgrims. but mayflower: the family,

the voyage in the founding of america published by st. martin's press and written by british journalist and author rebecca fraser who has our honest guest this evening. this new work explores one of america's additional narratives, a settlement of plymouth,through a particular and important lens : that of the family. plymouth's story is layered in generations of myth and legend, but with her journalistic acumen, rebecca fraser reminds us of the deeper meaning and power of this 400-year-old story. the real experiences of the men, women and children who lived it. their motivations, hardships, courage and perseverance. please join me in getting a 400 year strong plymouth history welcome to rebecca fraser . about . [applause] >> it is so wonderful and

moving to be here after thinking about the pilgrims for such a very longtime and to be surrounded by their artifacts and paintings of them . and especially because so many people have been so generous with their time, i have had so much help from rebecca griffith, the late florence goldstein, stephen o'neill answering many questions overthe years . also doctor walton carl and suzanne trussell, the president of the winslow house. they help me with all kinds of issues to do with the colonies but that said, please forgive my errors for you scholars and obviously descendents of the mayflower pilgrims. anyway, is that better like that? anyway, i want to talk about

the winslow family especially tonight because that's who i approached the story of the mayflower through. that gives me a bit of license as an english person to look at one of the founding myths of america because there were so many ongoing english connections to plymouth through the winslow's which have not been explored and in fact the national archives in london did reveal a much more international story to plymouth and the winslow's. and the mayflower pilgrims and it's been emphasized including the fact that the winslow family ran an import export company from england once edward winslow was living there in the 1640s so this is an international story for me and if i may guess and say so, the mayflower people actually turned out distinguished as

they were to be like canaries in the mine, if you'd like to put it like that to test whether north america was safe and habitable with the situation in england as it got worse. charles i, the archbishop was about to turn england roman catholic. i'm interested in revolutions why they happen and i'm very interested in the puritan links to cromwell and the puritans who set up the english after the civil war so it was interesting to discover that edwin winslow who sailed on the mayflower and was governor of the first successful puritan county in north america also sailed back again. that's how i dared to approach this great american story. i was just in england by coincidence on edwin's birthday, october 18 a couple weeks ago standing in the great 17th century hall where he was once a student studying latin and greek. very near to jonathan england's tomb and came home

to me how far this year young man came first in life and finally 35 miles for religions say. he was brought up a very respectable young man in nearby croydon which where his father was a considerable figure was made under sheriff of the county. no mean position. and his father's friends were the elite gentry of worcester, especially now he's been educated on kings college worcester which was the premier boys school and his future seemed assured to his parents and that he had an apprenticeship to well-known princes in london, thanks to his father's connections. his parents had been married at saint bride's church suggesting there was a connection with the printing history and yet edward chose to effectively run off and become part of the illegal puritan publishing community in leiden and a bastion of respectable life in england. and he not only printed the

illegal puritan literature, criticizing the church of england he joined the little church becoming worthy nottingham charlotte john robinson which have the mayflower and has had an extraordinary influence on the history of the world. well why was edward on the first place.? i think he was fascinated by the new world even before he went to live in because he been a printer which published travel books which were a great growth mearea in the publishing world after the discovery of america. it obviously become a serious puritan in london where he worked for a radical printer imported the illegal books william brewster published s partly out of conviction, partly to make money. he gone to holland because he wanted to publish illegal puritan literature himself to contribute to the struggle

against the antichrist, i.e. the pope. if you are a puritan wasn't so unusual to want to go to america. protestant colonies were po regarded as a weapon in the great war against roman catholicism which had begun with the reformation. so many policymakers at king james court including the then secretary of state for foreign affairs robert moulton were in favor of this charge going to america to make a new protestant policy. lots of people tried to help get them out. lots of people, in fact many people at court read this illegal literature which was tolerated and then the brewster press ouheaded by a course the famous elder brewster went too far and instead of publishing puritan preaches greatest hits, so to speak, the press attack king's policy toward the church and all hell broke loose. previously the virginia company had been involved in that emigration but now it had to be a much more healing corner of launch who had

supported it. now did the british ambassador to holland and english soldiers in to close down the brewster press and arrest brewster who in fact escaped to the north of england. and of course , in leiden, these really respectable people who'd given up everything were really in a sort of manual, dutch merchants and in a not particularly nice habitat. that was the prison, that was the town hall where edward ms. winslow married elizabeth barker, a beautiful sculpture trading in butter and there's a famous memorial to john robinson by the pilgrims society and that is the front of the house where behind which was a garden in which

20 families live in great discomfort but to be with john robinson. and that facade is still there in lydon but they were living in wooden huts and it was really very uncomfortable and that was one of the reasons theyreally had to get out particularly as the spanish were about to invade . holland again. and their children were being forced to work making close by dutch businessmen and they themselves had to take the worst of the job and worked 12 hour days because a lot of them couldn't, it was all they could get. and of course they experienced boston and england and some of the church also included as you know refugees fleeing the french war and other reformation constructs. so holland was full of people who had been pro-america and were thinking about going to america.

partly because the dutch east india company and recently sailed up and discovered the hudson river. >> so it wasn't that unusual a idea. and this was an adventure that seemed attractive and the dutch in fact offered the church to come under their flag to speak and as they always gave settlers a herd of cattle. it was in far better in some ways to have allow the dutch government to help them initially but because of this illegal, brewster was now on the run. the church or the pilgrims as they callthemselves this secrecy they had to maintain . that meant they couldn't raise enough funds for all the things they needed because some investors now wouldn't touch them and they were regarded as rebels but they didn't have any capital on the ship or draft animals to drag their cruise or even ad enough corn because we know they had to borrow engine cord to plant for the next

year when they arrived from an indian grave but as we know they did pay them back. but the church was very dependent on john robinson was clearly a sensitive and possible man and the church regarded themselves as part of this family so one of the greatestappointments , disappointments when they left holland was investors had refused to have robinson on the ship because he was head of the illegal church and robinson said he would stay behind with half the church because this stage was only the strongest who were meant to go but it was really a disappointment for them personally and in fact, for four years, they kept hoping that each ship which arrived which was going to have robinson on it and it did.r robinson was a strong character, an unusual man who had strong views about the way the church should treat the native peoples and this

was at the time where there was a great deal of debate in european government circles about the nature of the american indian thtribes and robinson came down firmly on the side of those who believe that indians had which was a matter of debate at the time and edward was especially attracted to robinson's idea of the church h in america. and as robinson would tell them in a letter very firmly, they were not magistrates, they were the indians. they were not there rulers and he was also open-minded who studied the new testament and they didn't think women should play a role in congregational churches. robinson's absence caused a great bloom over them as they left the canal with all the goods on barges and they went to belhaven and then on to southhampton but those of absence was a great sadness and edward winslow new some of his summons by y heart. robinson also left instructions boon how to

cooperate with one another which was potentially going to be one of the greatest problems because new people who were not church members but practical people went to join them in england.edward winslow was a sort of organizing force in the colonies whether it was volunteering to meet the native americans or deciding plymouth was in need of a 16 years after the colony was founded. given that he molded its laws and in fact devised its code when the government in 1836, when asked about edward winslow's early influences, i think the first thing i would like to say is that thanks to the dynamic merchant circles, his father moved in, the same sort of people that produced shakespeare, edward had a strong civic sense born of pride in the english system of government. we know this because some of the arguments use to stop the faraway english government interfering in new england affairs in the 1640s during the crisis reflect this and he said he had an idea of england in which

representation was key so 150 years before the rally and cry of the american system, representation without taxation, winslow wrote if the nation should impose laws on us, having no burden in their house of commons nor capable of summons by reason of the vast distance of the ocean being 3000 miles from london, and we should lose the liberty and freedom i conceived of english indeed. every corporation with their knights and merchants would make a and consent to their laws and so opposed what ever they concede may be hurtful to them but this liberty we are not capable of by reason of difference. so it was a complex piece of reason showing his great respect for parliament but defending new england's independence. so although he had been in exile in holland because the liberties didn't apply to him

as a puritan, it was something he had as an ideal. then during the course of his life became increasingly illiberal. i think part of that leaving for holland and then america was a yearning for a better life. and in fact, he was no different from other intellectuals of the period. delete the 16th century was a depressing time. was rockedby the wars of religion . described by poets and writers as corruption. and the new world was a beacon of hope. you must remember all the essays of writers like montagne and thomas more's utopia which suggest a great disillusionment with europe and at the same time the inhabitants of the new world were a cause of enormous interest and they were the ct subject of sermons reached to the virginia company at their courts meeting about the great nexus for poet john don .

so columbus's discovery of the americas in 1492 created a flood of fascinating commentary and speculation and travel books with the great area of publishing. in 17th century england, everything was imported by god, christianity and the bible.like the discovery are the invention of the internet today, discovering the americas, european philosophers and theologians stretched their minds to fit the new continent and its novel inhabitants into a christian eurocentric commodity. what had happened to the new world during the flood? were the native americans the original inhabitants of the world who had survived? could they be some of the lost tribes of israel been expelled by their experience in the eighth century before the common era? that's matters of great interest to edward and as he got to know the american indians and became a personal friend, he believed it was

his duty to show that they were cultural moral people. and in england, native american relics were collectives excitedly as american plants and the father and son who were the most influential english travelers and collective of the 17th century had a bath piece which was sad, they had a mental passed on bytheir father . and i'll show it here. and it's in the ashley museum in oxford and is covered with nearly 20,000 shells forming a design of the human. and in fact, pedestrian collection forms the basis of the ashley and that's where the mental is and nowadays

people think it's a temple hanging but it's a wonderful thing to see. now, american indians occasionally have been seen in england before. ask squanto had been but the fascinating he princess pocahontas was electrifying because she was supposed to have saved the life of john smith and married one of the virginia planters. and the historian, the english historian david canada was shown that when english encounter the native people in north america, they did not see them as these essentially, that he said they essentially were seen as coexisting, not in a relationship of english. ready and north american inferiority in their relationship similarity. princes in one society worthy analog for princes to another. and edward winslow was in london working as a printer and pocahontas arrived on the

state visit was treated as the daughter of the great emperor by james i and here is a contemporary, the famous contemporary engraving of her wish there was probably originated as a portrait but the artist signed a path made for an engraving of her in court dress which looks as large as one that queen elizabeth the first war and the portrait runs the legend that she is really a portentous emperor of virginia, the daughter of the most powerful prince manhattan. the number of virginia. whether the native americans had a recognizable civilization was a question informing the developments of colonization in england. the growth of the spanish empire organized under their encomienda system where the indigenous people were forced to labor in exchange for protection and enlightenment by their christian commentators led to strenuous public discussion and the

debate of 1551 saw the philosopher juan shania's defend the right of conquest over a people whom he defined as natural slaves. but like the south american school of philosophers, bartolomeo and his bride was bishop of mexico insisted on native rights. indians government sand customs say the indians were rational beings whose property in life was to be sacrificed and educated english people were aware of these debates, especially john robinson because carlos had brief relations with indians that had been circulating in translation specifically in the 70s and it was hugely influential, not least as the english pager out the legend of the spanish. so amongst most english

colonizers in the early 17th century it was a given that the american indians descended from adam, the same original ancestor is themselves and as for the virginian minister , alexander in 1613, he had converted pocahontas in the parish church virginia. one god creation, they had reasonable goal and an intellectual faculty as well as weed. and the renaissance rediscovery of classical texts had profoundeffects on english colonizers . and they thought that the native americans were going to be anlike the ancient britons and they were going to be like the romans in culture and the gospels which the romans had. and as alexander which chris inquired, what was the state of englandbefore the gospels reached them ? and i think edward very much had this in mind. because he compares the temples of the native

americans to diana and of course, such ideas made these new people who had no one had met before less familiar and it also suggests why the pilgrims were so unafraid of people who were a very different culture from themselves. and edwards priceless encounters suggest that to him, he had the sort of rugged virtue admired by tacit or and from the first, the pilgrims were very impressed by the indians valor and bravery. and in fact, one of the many t reasons roger williams was so happy to be at plymouth was because of their good relations with thenative americans . william bradford i should note even after william, john winthrop to the amazement had drawn up a paper on who were the original owners of the land of north america. his argument was that it was the americans indian tribes of course which is yet

another reason to expel him from boston so anyway, thrown on massasoit and the narragansett chief, william smith came very close friends with the native americans who he first met in plymouth. now, one of the great things we know about edward winslow was his fascination with the wampanaug people and he wrote to the ambassador of london about them and he'd been great friends with the man who helped to make money by selling first and as we know, almost everything we know about the first thanksgiving is based on a few lines from edward winslow's letter. but in fact, there are also many other descriptions of the very happy symbiotic relationship between plymouth and the wampanaug and massasoit is described by the government in his second letter to the widowed alice stacked worth. with him came for other kings yand six score men and it was all very exciting.

anyway. so i think ayedward, the native americans have a sort of magic and also, you have to remember that at this time in england, the classical revival is also making literature info and there's a time of better political religion or the simple life of noble shepherds who had got a victory of the imagination whether it's sort of the shepherd's calendar by edward spencer or shakespeare's forest art so plymouth had many of its elements. there was the new england historian jh elliott and written the dream with the european dream which had little to do with an american reality. the indians were not nacve barbarians from a native land. nevertheless, it took some time for the realities of two opposing ways of thought to distinguish themselves and so for over a decade there's a

very good friendship between the two people and i would say a unique kind of friendship between massive points and admin. one of the reasons that edward winslow is less well-known than some of the other more famous pilgrims is first of all, longfellow did not defend some of them and secondly, after 25 years he banished from plymouth. so it had to be settled by william bradford. and the last life of plymouth meditation are, so as he now has been absent this for years has been much the weakening of this government without his consent, he took these employments upon him. but that only reminds how much plymouth plantation was part of the ongoing reformation resin revolution so dramatically by luther. although william bradford was interested in what was going on in england, compared to

edward, he was delighted when bishops were rid of in 1646 is but what was really absolutely upset about the english revolution and he would become great friends with john winthrop and he asked john winthrop to pass on newsletters about the new th situation there and i think he just, he was a much more ambitious man and a more worldly man than william bradford and he was less emotional and he begged the famous phrase in new england that it was to be a place where religion and profit jumped together so edward never saw the danger life cotton mather would phrase it that religion brought forth prosperity and the daughter destroyed the mother.

that wealthy nest and prosperity were a threat piety and it would destroy their mission. but much as william bradford might want to make a utopia, in the end, material progress which energetic when edward winslow was, was naturally the site and although i don't want to agree with mather that king philip's war was there to punish the puritans for backsliding, i would agree was connected to a new commercial spirit, and amazing way trade was taking up between north america in the years before it. because the fascination with the native americans of the early settlers at plymouth did give way to commercial considerations when it was felt that for example the narragansett indians ownership of the land was standing in the way of making use of new agricultural ideas being pioneered in old england but in edward's case, being a new england patriot overtakes his passion for the

american indians and he becomes very much more involved with massachusetts. and he also becomes infiltrated at the idea of new england as he would say. that the colonies were growing up to be a nation. and he was someone who got to know many members of the written parliamentarian party because being an agent for plymouth in london, many of the future powers would be in the english revolution had been supporting plymouth and so he knows a lot of the movements and shakers. in my view, edward arthur comes rather distant from plymouth . perhaps because they were so independently minded and probably most of them would have liked to have passed william battles relation of freedom of religion at plymouth. in fact, only really is defeated by william blandford with edward winslow's

support, refusing to allow it to be a motion in the plymouth court assembly. >> we have letters from edward to john winthrop saying how he's pining for his company and friends at boston and the weather is stopping him going from marshfield to boston. so even before edward goes to england and what is really massachusetts business in 1646, he was spending more time in boston and he been instrumental setting up the adoration of united colonies in 1643 after the guantc they historian daniel mandel had described as the cold war between the american indian tribes on the settlers. edward like other new englanders very much thought plymouth and massachusetts as part of a more governing world, a world that became on the second coming in the thousand euro of the saints but he certainly didn't have fears about what commercial prosperity would do to it. and in a way, broadening and

deepening of new england's destiny which edward had much freight pains to promote and protect chwhen newcomers who were not members of the independent asked london to intervene and give them civil rights. the formation of this prosperity of new england , with all progress, because were to be very poor deal relations with the native americans. i think you have to remember eventually the huge numbers of english people arriving 20,000 into new england in 10 years with an enormous number, particularly the second play in 1633 the narragansett. and this sort of created tremendous anxiety, people moving into connecticut. so also, i think sadly edward

to some extent his view is altered because of the and hutchinson ocontrol which convinced many of the more influential ministers at boston that satan was in the wilderness and it wasn't an uncorrupted place anymore. and you can all say in my view see a change to massapoit's attitude to the english after that war. what we now perceive was a very powerful neighbor was becoming very much greater to the annoyance of his sonand they tried to reverse this . send it by the time king cannot even finish his own ancientpermits . so plymouth was very reluctant to get involved in the war but in the end they become convinced that they got to.

so anyway, we of course have the famous words recorded by john easton of great island that king philip said that his father had been the first in doing good to the english and the english first and doing wrong and when the first english came, massapoit was a great man in the english were like little children. so there are quite a few references in contemporary accounts of killing phillips war to show how philip resented the shire winslow because he felt the trade betrayed by him and i was curious about that. i think that the truth is that after the settlers in the winslow's have become involved in international trade, that relationship lapses and yet the winslow's have been important people to the wampanaug. so there was a better beginning and anyway, edward

gets some of it, goes to london to plead the case of new england to say that new england must be left alone by london and he makes a great speech, the parliamentary commissioner plantation and they agree they will be no more appeals from new england to old england . and edwin simply can't leave and the fact the bishops had been abolished leads into an idea that the mennonite is coming and at the same time, in england is a grandee named herbert column who who had old friend edward from boston and he returned from boston and had been the first caterer of harvard to take up land in sussex through his first wife. and he discovers that edward is related to one of the best-known figures of the civil war. and i think and wins life changes and i think that those portraits .. the

portrait of penelope pelham shows a different side, very different from plymouth that edward had because edward thought that he was missed in london and that he start importing and exporting goods and he comes to spend quite a lot of time in london and elizabeth, edward's daughter also comes over to call to him because he gets very miserable in london but he can't leave it alone. he been promoted to one of the revolutionary committees. and he's actually chosen to be one of the civilians commissioner in charge of expelling spain from jamaica and hispaniola and making

english protestant colonies there at last, edward dies on the way to jamaica . and of course, the squire and penelope live at marshfield. but they also spend quite a lot of time in england and penelope, her family, they are aristocratic great manor houses they live in. and i think that to sire changes and we have letters in which he talks of the influence of the indians, and he gets very in with speculators from boston who thinks the native americans are not using up-to-date methods and he is part of a group guessing the native american land by trickery and the new england currency wampum is the monetized in the restoration and the native americans invest in

european technology and they start selling lands because they don't have money. and so there's this terrible, terrible war and i think that if edward had been slightly uncharacteristic of his generation, josiah was characteristic of the new england generation. on his generation in that suspicion had replaced the open-mindedness of the mayflower days. however, josiah was not characteristic of plymouth. which remained perhaps because of his questioning separatist foundations and much more open minded colony than the rest of new england and john over junior famously refused to take the salem witch trials seriously and when he arrived in salem to a court hearing he was surrounded by what he contemptuously described as wenches with their juggling

tricks and he just refuses to trust salem's justice. he has sprung from jail and in prosperity until as he said people regained their reason. and after all, unlike boston, appraisers were left alone by print plymouth. there were commuters of them in the colony and perhaps the unique mayflower compact which was somewhat influenced by john robinson had a continuous rippling effect on the colony. like a contextual fountain bubbling up and even if the compaq had been romanticized, this document is rightly regarded as an elite void in the history of democracy. it certainly was in advance of its time and princes, carpenters, indentured servants, their own makers were not usually the ranks of the 17th-century politicians sprang from an established a civil government with much more than a cursory reference to a monarch and it wasn't until they were 200 years later in england urban males

were working to disenfranchise them. in fact, robinson had left instructions to them about how to cooperate with one another which i would argue emphasizes the value of all human beings regardless of rank and he says that they once they made themselves into a body politic, given they did not have any, and i quote persons of special eminence he, whatever their social position help them to get full loyalty. he reminded them that the image of the lords authority which the magistrate felt was honorable in how means whatsoever and i think you see an independence of mind in plymouth which you don't see in boston. it was not required of plymouth settlers to be members of a local church in order to be an franchise and in fact edwards stepson peregrine wright was not a member of the church at all until the 70s. as a result, you see a great reaction against josiah

winslow's positions and all the american indians surrendered their way to the west indians to slavery without trial and you see protests throughout king philip's war by clergyman like the reverend wally and thereverend james east . saying this really shouldn't be happening. >> something happened to the noise. >> so what was it that made josiah so hostile? it may be doing business in the west indies where slavery becomes common practice. his new brother-in-law george corwin was the wealthiest merchant sailor. but nevertheless, josiah was greatly mourned at his early death . and the other thing that in my view was great about josiah was that he backed his wife penelope winslow who brought a case against her father for refusing to grant

her aid. for a legacy which she been left by her great-grandfather and to me had been wondering ever since he and hutchinson how women were treated in new england. it's a sign that actually, what ever the ideas of the id authoritarian society, didn't stop women taking cases and penelope's case, polishing an assessment of her father which is really vitriolic. she accuses them of, her brother and father of cruel and criminal conspiracy to deprive her of her grandfather's money. and although it's precipitated a nervous breakdown, at the same time it didn't stop her also querying whether her

half-brother edward pelham was allowed to inherit land which he'd been left by her father herbert and he takes another case against him in 1703, just before she dies. so the distance from her father who returned to suffolk was it the effect of her on life itself? was it liberating for women, women were able to keep cabins from men and were licensed to do so, women had to appear in court at the time of proxy sale, likewise to any plans concerning her children which is an attitude anticipating the infant custody in england, old england by several centuries so anyway, a mixed bag of human beings and actions but i think the plymouth colony brought out the best in the winslow family, thank you very much.

>> would anyone like to say something? >> first of all, welcome to plymouth. i'm walter powell and we've spoken on the phone. it's a joy to be with you in person. >> you got a nice job of applying an aspect of winslow's career that emphasizes his education and his erudition and to that extent, i'm curious about your sense of his ability, his facility for languages, his ability to deal with language native peoples. can you delaborate on that as you understand it? >> i think that a lot of the travel literature of the 17th century have a cavalry list of whether the algonquin words and john smith, william straight wait, that empowered

a list of words. later on obviously roger williams and the keys to the americas. it's all about native american words. i think he was very, i think it made him curious. about what words meant and in fact, the good news from new england which is written only four years after he arrives , he describes native american words. what those words mean. in great detail. he obviously been studying that world and learning about the cavalry. we know that stephen hopkins, it was the only mayflower traveler who'd been in the new world before and supposedly, one of the reasons he went on expeditions was supposedly he knew a few native american words but clearly at the beginning, you could see everyone in the end was edward. and he wanted to relate them to old england where he came from. and he wanted to, wanted the

world to know about it. in a very determined way the cause is first missive to london, he said i don't think they have any religion and he actually corrected that in new england. so i think he was a very good linguist. but he knew latin and greek. this was a new challenge which he was very intrigued by. >> that's not to say that everyone else wasn't, but he had been special because he was a partisan. >> i was going to ask about that. obviously he was a publisher, and obviously he got traded and so forth but when he first landed in plymouth, what was he doing at that time? >> i think they were sort of punishing. thinking how are we going to, where's the money going to come from? and in fact, there's a

wonderful bit and william bradford plantation in which he says i'm so proud of my community.that they were all just weavers in holland and they become traders and they become experts in for. and who would've thought? is a wonderful explanation about how everybody had adapted to the new world with tremendous energy and application. and yes, they were immediately thanks to this relationship, they were able to get first from hudson's bay. where of course they grew tickets. and of course when john winthrop arrived, one of the things they say is plymouth had a hold on the for trade. much to their annoyance. >>. [inaudible] do you have any insight as to why he broke with the religion of his

upbringing? >> yes, his father was a churchwarden. he was a conventional church of england the person.his patrons in worcester were puritan gentry and funnily enough, worcester world where a lot of conflicts were. a lot of them in the private plot came from around there but there was puritans. but he was a strict church figure because his father, he always seemed to havethat sort of position . and it was in the living i think that edward wild and you know, it was so straightforward and edward himself makes the change so i think he's radicalized if you want to use that word when he

goes to london to be a printer and he works for john beals who was importing illegal puritan literature and there were lots of little separatist churches in london and i think nowadays and thought that although the 50 other people on the mayflower were supposedlythere for practical reasons, lots of them had separatist links . i think from priscilla mullins's father even though he's a member of a separatist church has a lot more scholarship suggesting that and i think he is radicalized probably by john beals and he takes this position because john beals, why was he importing all this literature unless he had this different view of religion so edward was brought up conventionally and then takes the position and joins the separatist church.

>>. [inaudible] >> it's very interesting. in 1620, just as the mayflower is going, his father absconds. his father was like a paralegal. he worked in the legal business although he wasn't a qualified lawyer and there were various court cases showing that he fled to ireland because he had borrowed, he said that but he had taken money from a merchant who was employing him and the last we hear of him is in northern island and mrs. winslow goes west and she obviously came from probably a gentry family because her daughter then marries into the weight family. they claimed to be descended from her at the wake but they certainly were a very ancient gentry family and royalists so that edward winslow's brother-in-law and nephew were both royalists. and there's a wonderful contemporary description by his nephew william wake who i

didn't have time to describe of being saved from execution by a rebel enclave dwwhich is edward winslow and yet, edward winslow didn't mind in awakes investing in this import export business they had so he was, he remained closeeven though she was a royalists , all royalists were puritans living in new england. except the one who came back and then died. but he remained close with her and i found that fascinating that he didn't sort of cast her off and that the weight, they remained close and even more interesting, edward winslow's great-nephew was archbishop of canterbury in 1760. so it was a conventional background, his background was really conventional. >> yes. as a student of early

american coal elitist history, i've always been passionate and particularly fascinated by the clash between various different religious groups such as quakers and catholics seeking to evangelize new england through the course of 1793. you mentioned the accumulation of quaker communities in new england outside from the plantation. where there missionaries or certain individuals from plymouth or from boston, puritan representatives that were seeking to possibly convert those non-puritan separatist groups to their side , to expand? the answer is probably someone in this room knows the answer but i would say that plymouth was much more tolerant of the quaker communities and in fact, there's this terrible thing that governor prince wanted, removed a lot of civil rights of quakers and then his daughter married the quaker after harlem so i think as in

all these things, you can have an apparent glass ceiling and then people are behaving differently to what the government thinks they should be doing. but i'm not sure about conversion. the thing about the quakers, josiah winslow said as long as they keep quiet, we will leave them alone. that was his position but he was very good in my view on quakers. >> do you have advice on how you got interested in writing and nonfiction and how you do your research? how do you do your research, how you got interested in writing? you, i want to hear about you . >> i'd written autobiography of charlotte brontc, i've been a journalist and i wrote a biography of charlotte brontc ndand that was very enjoyable research from that.

although books take a long time and one has to do other things to save time area in the end, it's supposedly worthwhile. [applause] >> here's a look at some authors recently featured on book tvs "after words", our recent author interview program. fbi agent tamara l lurie details his experiences fighting terrorism is a muslim american. ever face the nation knows that bob schaffer examine the role of the media today and former fox news anchor

gretchen carlson talked about the challenges for women who have beensexually harassed in the workplace. in the coming weeks on "after words", new york times best-selling author jeanette conan will report on the work of her grandfather , manhattan project scientist james bradford:. bolster star father keswick on will recall his immigration to the us and offer his thoughts on what it means to be an american and this weekend on "after words", daily caller news foundation editor-in-chief christopher bedford explores the leadership skills of president from. >> he was exactly the same on stages offstage. extremely likable, lit up the room wherever he went. an early story is interesting because i'm asked on the campaign trail about girls who do make up for tv. that's a place where no one can see you. there's no cameras, no campaign staff. you can be as nice or as rude as you want to be and those

wonderful women will help you out anyways but i said who is the most mean? they surprised me with the answer.who was the nicest and they said donald trump. and one of the girls said i think we're going to get in trouble. when i met him on the campaign trail he was so much different from other politicians. he was authentic and not like these other people who had run everything through a hole to make sure it worked. he did none of that. he didn't hire oldsters which he may be strangely bragged at one point and that came true . >> "after words" it errors every saturday at 10 pm and sunday at 9 pm eastern and pacific. >> ronald reagan, my first meeting with him, serious meeting was in october 1965. and he had been spending the last several months testing the waters to see if the people of california wanted him to run. he pretty much made up his mind but i called him up and said, i was working on a

profile of him for reader's digest and i said can i come out andvisit? he said go ahead. two days , myself and my wife and traveled with him. she had been active in new york politics and i valued her judgment and she also got in as an editor andfellow co-author with me . so but four of us, only four of us in this limo. it was the driver and up in the front seat next to him, me in the back and reagan over here. between me and reagan was my tape recorder. i won't bother to get out an iphone, you guys all know what an iphone is. i had a wall in stock which is this big. it's like a piece of luggage. it's an old reel to reel and i had that between us. and we had a great big microphone which i was asking

reagan questions. i asked about his political philosophy and i thought i'd share with you on this. this is 1965. he quoted a 1947 interview in which he said that whether it comes from management or labor or government, or the right, left or the center, whatever imposes on the freedom of the individual is tyranny. and must be opposed. that was his philosophy which he had come to over years of study and reflection and reading. at the end of that second day, of course we were convinced he and i both as we said, he's god. he's really got it. and he said, on up to the house, have some iced tea.

i'll give you some cookies. we went up pacific palisades to their home. very modest home, not a great big sprawling mansion. he'd been working for ge for all those years. and he went into the kitchen with nancy to do the iced tea and cookies, put us in the library den which was very small, really. i looked over. here were all of these shelves of books. so of course, what did i do? got up, began looking at them . history. politics. economics. volume after volume. and i began looking at the titles. conservative classics, there are four books in particular that i will mention. the road to assertion by a nobel laureate. witness by whittaker chambers, an extraordinary

autobiography of an x soviet spy. economics in one lesson by henry azlan, a classic of its time and a book which i had not read, the law by frederick brought bastien. i said who was frederick bastien? i learned later in 19th century economist, free enterprise or and someone who would influence many people including ronald reagan. okay, i said okay. maybe he had read them. i reached out and began taking the books out of the shelves and said no, don't do that. nancy, that's going to be okay. i took them out, opened them up. dogeared. underlined. little phrases in the margins. he had read , i'm not saying that he read every book that closely those classics that i'm talking about, yes, he had. here was athinking , reasoning person who had

arrived at his philosophy the old-fashionedway . one book at a time. i said right then and there that reagan is an intellectual. >> watch this and other programs online at booktv.org . >>. >> .. are pleased to be joined by former radio host and msnbc contributor charles sykes whose new book is called "how the rights lost its mind" is this a book about donald trump? guest: now, obviously he plays a major role but it's really about he plays a major role but it's really about the conservative movement, what happened to the conservative movement, how it enabled him, capitulate to them, how in fact, where did it go wrong? how did a conservative movement go from being run by william f. buckley to sean hannity? how did it go from ronald reagan the donald trump?