advocacy? >> it has been for some impact i've known people who've become judges and so the decision-making process i was glad to be an advocate and enormously satisfying. as the attorney to resolve the disputes large and small there's large significance and that is a satisfying role.

an audible conversations welcome to tonight's lecture. before we get started you may have noticed a few cameras in the room, please turn off all of your devices. please do that if you are interested in asking a question. we are very excited about tonight's program. it's a pleasure to welcome the lecture featuring francis struggled. it's made for the generosity of the livingston foundation. in new york city and graduating from radcliffe college came of age in the vietnam war era and

the vietnamese and americans in vietnam the history of vietnam and the involvement in that country the book was awarded the pulitzer prize, the bancroft prize and the national book award. she's since authored numerous works of american history and works have appeared in such publications as the new yorker, "new york times" magazine and rolling stone. she will discuss the most recent book the evangelicals to shape america. she traces the history of the protestant evangelism from its beginnings in the great awakenings in the 18th and 19th centuries to its current implements with religious political life. she also explores the future of the evangelical movement and the demographic cultural change. the book has received quite critical acclaim for the scope

and detail and timeliness "the new york times" book review place anyone concerned about the protestantism was a trusted guide in the brand. the bancroft winner. fair-minded overview of this vitally important religious stability and fitzgerald has now provided it. public life at mercer university and the pastor and director of 22 books, speaker and activist president of the society for christian ethics and president elect of the american academy of religion and in addition also pleased to find out his picture is in the book as well so we could not have a better questioner tonight so please join me in welcoming frances fitzgerald. [applause]

>> good evening. we would like to thank all of you for being here this evening and all of you that are watching on c-span. it is good to have such an opportunity to talk about is an evangelical myself the most important book on evangelicalism that has been written in a long time and it is majestic in its scope and covers everything you can possibly cover. it's been that the work of many decades of reporting and my task this evening is to get the ball rolling by asking as many questions as i can fit in and about 40 minutes and then you will have the chance in atlanta to ask some questions are solv solved. i will start off this way welcome to atlanta.

i'm sure you've enjoyed the traffic this evening as you make your way from the airport. i will start by asking you this, is that okay, what motivated you to do a lot of research and decide to devote so much attention to the evangelical community, what was the interest point for you? ..

>> at a liberal arts college. there was a church next door. it was falwell's church. and he was just starting the moral majority. so my editor had never heard of him before. but with that fluidity to feel

that those that were at the church were far away from my own sensibility from anybody that i knew. and to try to understand you have to understand that. and i did a few more pieces on the evangelicals but eventually it did occur to me that it is possible the evangelical right that was in the perfect context of the 19th century.

to seem completely insane to people with that apocalyptic prophecies. >> take the story of american evangelicals back to the beginning of america. >> and in the 1740s to begin in the church of jonathan edwards. but one day that sermon of his with the spider hanging over the fire.

but he didn't do that very much. but then he went away. so then this just came to a broil. so it turned out this was happening in other parts of the country. and around the same time.

and two would push down the eastern seaboard so there was a compelling presence that one actor said that he could attract a huge crowd just pronouncing the word mesopotamia. [laughter] and the state to state. and he was a celebrity the way he brought americans together. before the revolutionary war. and then with the next great awakening by the way.

so after the revolution going into the 1840s to bring more emotional affairs and those horseback riders went from town to town. they would give the bibles and this is tremendous excitement on the frontier. and that excitement grew from town to town. and then to be entertained.

and then riding around and so forth. but they did preach a very simple bible so to be democratic well into those established churches in the social hierarchies from virginia and new england. and then to be badly criticized but then to go so

far as to say but there should be none at all. with the relationship should be between the individual and god. so it is a complete disruption with the solution leaving their families to start fresh and not having those hierarchies to depend on anymore.

and then establish their own churches. but it was a really wild moment for a time. but then in the cities they were real performers. these evangelicals they began programs to care for the indigent immigrants. they started the public school system in this country. and they were the first abolitionist.

people always said garrison was responsible for this but he was too radical for the religious people and and anarchist and feminist at the same time and that went too far for them. >> essentially evangelicalism became the heart and soul of american religion that is impossible to understand and to be in the big cities and everywhere but in the book you talk about what i consider to be a difference so could you

say a word about that? >> the south was rather isolated at the time and with the plantations and the slave owners i think they were more cosmopolitan had catholics and jews and intellectuals. so if there was a break between the two over slavery with the nomination to split apart on the geographic lines, it didn't really heal after

the civil war. and that develops its own kind every legend they began to be more and more diverse with the ideas from europe and so on and of course in the 1880s the arrival of darwinian evolution and higher criticism of the bible for scholars and specialists. and of course that affected the clergy a good deal. but so the divide starts to open between liberals and conservatives in the liberal

start to question their churches as well as everything else. so the conservative for these apocalyptic prophecies were simply all-around at the time after the french revolution that the world was going to hell. and the apocalypse was upon us and there is various improvement around us. >> ending up on a separate trajectory from the north and by the late 20th century is

what became known as fundamentalist and modernist. but a lot of people don't understand that really the religious landscape knowing about the protestants, it comes from the liberal side what we know of the evangelicals comes from conservative side. >> those two groups really aren't talking to each other very much. but the fundamentalist could

take over the presbyterian church for those who would do battle royal against the modernist. and that effort failed because there was a lot of people in both denominations. and those who do good in the local quarters. there was a huge splintering

but it was noticed by the press 1925. which is a really important moment because of how it was interpreted. that is where the place the great lawyer humiliated william jennings bryant but he was not a fundamentalist anti- evolution but that it is the time before the fundamentalist.

he said i don't pay much attention to this with the interpretations of the bible. and then it picking on his side. but with the knowledge of the bible. because this was in rural tennessee thinking that the fundamentalist were a bunch of hicks.

and then to be run over by the powers. with very educated man who preached in new york city. so instead of disappearing these fundamentalist pastors powerful voices and in the various parts of the country. they are all in small denominations parts of larger denominations.

and this went completely unnoticed. >> the word evangelical is retrieved after world war ii. who did that and why? >> i do say in the book it is billy graham's. and thought they could get it just at the time it is always a conservative. after wars it is

anti-communist and then to be true americans to go to church or any church it doesn't matter. and it builds character. anyway billy graham, and then turning to many people off. and then cut them off. but then he meant but it was

calm down was a gentle fundamentalist. >> so probably most people billy graham with the revival and hanging out with richard nixon? so talked about that relationship and the beginning of the politicalization. billy graham likes powerful people. because they would make the

revivals much easier to accomplish and would seem more important than he was. with democrats and republicans alike so that was his downfall because he became too close to change his views to nixon's views. and then to defend that nixon administration. so then when the vietnam war

came he was part of the people to blame for that. and also watergate. which he did not denounce early enough early enough of billy graham as foreshadowing of what happens after him. a larger-than-life figure but to organize that movement to make a marriage happen and to be known as the christian right and a lot of those figures and all of them come across the pages.

so talk about that trajectory? so with that upsurge of fundamentalism in the south there is a second upsurge but the first in the south. and it happened with the industrialization and urbanization as the first one. so with that cultural disruption people were coming into the city's who have traditional evangelical leaders now find themselves under attack and then the

liberals find themselves under attack. but what was different from billy graham in this case was jerry falwell and all with the mass movement in graham never did. sometimes he had his own relationship with the powerful but it came up from the grassroots really you cannot credit preachers having totally novel ideas. there were all kinds of things that proceeded it like the terrible textbook the war in the county of west virginia or the upsurge of conservativism

in southern california. all kinds of things. then issues began to appear. and here he at the novelties of the 60s. some feminism to the protest against the wars from women dressing in blue jeans and guys wearing their hair long. it all came at once and it was huge and the issues were enormous and added to by the supreme court which really was trying to make the state of or neutral arbiter for the

religious groups between those religious groups and nonreligious people. so what all happened at the same time. but it was a bit delayed because the reaction came in the 80s and at that point falwell, with the help of these operatives from washington d.c. had their own little conservative pack wanted him to create the moral majority and to structure in a sophisticated way and that included conservative catholics but falwell could only attract other fundamentalist.

so he didn't really exceed in this mass movement but on the other hand he made a big fuss and southern baptists were around. but that is why he paid so much attention to these people. so essentially there came to be a merger of ideas of social ideas between the republican party and the democrats were pushed left and that is the great division in politics begins. >> so the republican party with evangelical south but you

say they got the better of the exchange when the clergy in the activist with the evangelical community engage politicians from the republican party are they gaining or being played? >> ultimately the politicians win. there was that what the christians wanted past including george w. bush but they would give publicity and that is what falwell understood. that one speech of ronald reagan or by the other pastors.

so he went with reagan on issues that were not moral or religious. for example like the nuclear weapons policies and star wars but that should be a faithful part of the republican party and then they began to vote but actually some of the biggest leaders in the south were preachers who were ahead of other people turning the south republican.

so gradually something like one third of the republican party led by the christian right. so inevitably it is politicized. there were a lot of evangelicals trying to get out of that and to believe that but then that they completely disappeared because we were political people and it was the era of the press and the media so what happened

eventually is a lot of liberals or people became disgusted by this. because they forgot they existed until election time and they knew nothing about them so that is where i came in. [laughter] >> how did abortion become the central organizing issue? or do you agree it was? >> i do. it is fascinating because evangelicals in the 60s and 70s were very much were for therapeutic abortions as they were called which meant that

was fine for rape or incest or harm to the mother but that meant also psychological harm as well so that left enormous possibilities otherwise i would have been pressed for words that the north and south approved this but the reason a good part of it was abortion was a catholic issue. even if you think of the 60s evangelicals could not stand in the catholics with their medieval tyranny that dictated everybody's way of thinking.

so it took a long time for the christian right to convince their peers and also the laypeople that abortion was in fact murder as the catholics said it was. and i would say it wasn't until the 80s that the evangelicals began to believe this. and the two. long -- parties split on this as they had so democrats being pro-choice, said you can't

vote for somebody who allows murder. and evangelicals became even more catholic than the catholics because it was a part of what they understood as the victorian patriarchal family so there were sociological reasons for opposing abortion. the antiabortion sentiment actually rose over the years. even the millennial generation today is very liberal on

issues of homosexuality. but it is absolutely firm on abortion. >> partly what you are describing is the broadening of the permanent split tied to religion it isn't just protestants or conservatives so our politics has become tribal and it really isn't changing. >> there one is called the god gap people were very religious matter what religion or tradition were more public

than the left in that tradition. so it is perfectly true it is cutting through all the religious nominations. >> now you can explain why the evangelicals voted for donald trump. [laughter] >> so talk very briefly at the end of your book have you thought about what that says about the landscape that you describe? >> it does say quite a lot to me. first of all during the primaries virtually all christian right leaders and they are not half as powerful as it used to be but came out for ted cruz and if you for

rubio but there was not long -- was a not trump faction with pastors leading this. but it turns out the congregation or the laypeople in general they are the ones who voted for trump. so a poll done from one firm from southern baptist. it was done before the last election.

so if you ask people what issues are most important to them they notice evangelical pastors would answer personality of the candidate, religious freedom or the supreme court justices, abortion, exactly what you would imagine from right wing religious evangelicals. but now on the other hand others would say economics and national security. so the two would never meet so to have that loss of control

but also it is pragmatism that isn't what they would have done trying to keep strictly to their commitment but they voted for all kinds of people and because of what they thought and mostly have been disappointed and probably they won't be disappointed by donald trump either who else? betsy divorce -- then carson,

even the attorney general. some of the people are definitely christian right and they have that as their base of support. so he does have in his cabinet but he hasn't touched on those major subjects like homosexuality yet but he has appeased them in many ways already. >> there are so many more questions to ask it i want to

give you a chance. if you'd like to ask a question please come to the microphone. ask your question. a brief question please don't make a statement. otherwise bad things will happen to you. [laughter] >> since the 1820s has the movement been driven by personality or ideology? >> i think both. and in the case of some people like one of the great preachers of the 19th century he put all kinds of strands of doctrine together

in the united states and crisscrossed but also with the heads of the large corporations quite literally. and his views of poverty didn't exist except they didn't want to but you can see he was a very powerful person and his disciples created the fundamentalist movement. >> there are so many that were profiled in the book what

about jim and tammy faye baker? jimmy swaggart, an interesting group. >> you haven't said anything yet of the civil rights easement in the 60s and its effect. >> i should have mentioned it at the start of all of that. and that they created that movement because even though people did not mention it at the time falwell was a huge segregationist. but it isn't mentioned any

longer it was all about morality but underneath that certainly it was about the civil rights movement and the disruption of the hierarchy of society and society was chaotic so the head of the first baptist church, to be in the majors segregationist movement changed his tune.

so to talk about the integrationist and people you had to worry about and to see them as part of this because like the kids on the campus rioting in the streets so these parallels were made without ever having to say that policy of the segregationist schools.

>> and that is what the new right operatives said there were reasons for the christian right but taxes and regulations and then to be segregated to a certain extent and there was a resistance to this horrible regulation. >> i was raised in the evangelical church and i have been to a few of them and i am at a crossroads personally i wanted to hear your thoughts personally. it seems these movements have an a moment of impasse within the ranks with a split it

feels like that to me because you have people who overwhelmingly voted for donald trump but also that new faction of evangelicals who are still not worried about socialists -- social issues i am working my way out of evangelicalism or there is more than me that there -- but it feels very reformation how can it even continue especially right now because the right is so deep? >> that is a very good question. i have no answer as far as you're concerned. you will see but it is true we

haven't mentioned it the social justice party among the evangelicals. it is true i describe one part but the other is the below the belt issues. >> so with those new evangelicals that is very important. >> so there were always some that you mentioned but they are in a whole movement in reaction to george w with the

obama years but then the old right and they tend to be more social justice see -- type that my objection you're not putting humpty dumpty together again those factions will not come back together. >> but it isn't that there won't be evangelicals but now they have broken apart in their thinking. >> also bijan. many of these people who have then turned off by the whole thing especially the christian right have said this community

is not mine i want to go someplace else. >> and to some extent they find things too simplistic they become catholic -- catholics or a body. [laughter] but the evangelicals were at the top of the heat with episcopalians. moving up in society even when i visited the falwell church in 1980 but most of that was

the mainland protestant working with those evangelicals because they had proven more effective. >> and that is declining. the first time. but it is declining but have

fewer children. it is probably true of all multicultural or meant on -- anything that could not assimilate it is hard to see how it has much of a future. we are just about out of time. thanks for your excellent book. [applause] you are invited to the book signing you are invited to the book signing

b5. [inaudible conversations] wow. good evening everyone.