georgia. at 10, neil, alan and joel gershenfeld discuss what they call the third digital revolution. and we wrap up our prime time programming at 11:40 with rebecca cost that, predicting future events and outcomes with more precision. that all happens tonight on c-span2's booktv. 72 hours of nonfiction authors and books this weekend. television for serious readers. [inaudible conversations] >> good morning. good morning. [inaudible conversations] >> before we begin, may i ask all of you to please turn off your cell phone and any other electronic devices? ..

to this public affairs program. we are extremely honored to have as our guest today, david miliband. david is the president and ceo of the international rescue committee. he oversees both agencies humanitarian relief operations and the refugee resettlement and assistance program in several american cities. i know that the name david miliband resonates with most of our audience. but those that want to learn more about our guest, please take a moment and read what was handed out to you this morning. today he will be discussing one of the biggest issues, refugees. in his recent book entitled rescue. it is he says, about chadwick while the refugee crisis may no

longer be front page news, make no mistake, it is ongoing and global. while the follow-up from years of civil war top system list this is only part of the refugee issue. they are being afghanistan and somalia, and doris can be on here seeking shelter and wondering how they will survive. swhile they have always been refugees, those who are forced from their home whether escaping war, persecution or natural disasters, there seems to be something different about what is happening now. in becoming not only an enormous humanitarian crisis, but a political challenge, it leaves a very important moral question about who we are and what we stand for. issues that the carnegie council cares about. and since her widespread refugee crisis. he tells us what it means to be refugee.

why we should care and how we can make a difference. taking us from the war zone to the middle east to the peaceful suburbs of america. he explains a crisis and shows what scan be done not just by government but that policy and citizens with the urge to change life. what it comes down to is simply this. a fight to hold the best of human nature and rhetoric and policy. as he says, refugees, we betray our history, and interest. >> plays drumming and helping a local mall very distinguished guests. [applause] >> thank you very much and good morning everyone it is a privilege to be here at the council today. the ethics and international affairs at 8:15 am is quite a challenging menu. of course the first thing i want to be clear is that the people are in the second row are in no way second-class

citizens. and those in the overflow room are not there class citizens. but those in the room, someone is keeping an eye to initiate a falsely believe. so the eye is on you even though we cannot see you physically. i want to first divorce thanks to you and the council for letting the company. this is one of the purposes of writing this book is to take the refugee crisis out of a self-selected world of humanitarian experts and dealing with refugees and occasionally on the front page into wider conversations. because one of my diagnoses of this crisis is that the world refugees are victim of a complacency. that somehow, more and practice

have been established and they were properly looked after. they were almost put into another power of the mind. one reason for writing the book was to come and ehave breakfast to talk about the nature of the modern refugee crisis. which in some ways, they are hallmarks of previous but also distinctive characteristics. to try and engage people who have a wider interest to see that this is an issue of global displacement. people forced from their homes by conflict and persecution. it is deeply connected to the fate of the global system overall. and so, the fact that here, at the council, they're interested in values and ethics and norms. it also interested in national affairs. that is the nexus i tried to discuss in the book. what i thought i would do is talk for about 20 minutes or so and then invite as many questions as possible.

just talk about four things really. first of all, what is the refugee crisis today? secondly, what only, what can be done about it? and forth, what do we all have to do about it other than purchase the book which is very important. being british, and extremely leery of anything that might be seen as self-promotion but having been here for four years i realize that the self-promotion is the name of the game and the, i can tell you that every copy that by, gives or leads to a 2025 donations to the international rescue committee. so any of you would think that you are purchasing one copy i have news for you. you will be going away with 10 and $20 as a result. want to go through those, what is the crisis, why should we care, look what we do? let me start with the facts.

65 million people displaced from their homes by conflict or persecution in the world. not heeconomic migrants, people are leaving there, choosing to leave the home and the country in order to seek economic betterment. there are about 250 million of them. the 65 million people are homeless because of work persecution. of that 65 million, 40 million are still within their own home country. they are what is called internally displaced. so 7 million syrians are being bombed or driven out of their homes but are still living within syria. in northeast nigeria, 2 million people have been displaced from their homes by poker her own and are still within nigeria. 14 million internally displaced. about 25 million are refugees. boca -- but, just keeping you

the 25 million people over the 65 million are people who have been driven from their homes by persecution and they have done into a neighboring country. and the definition of a refugee is someone that has a well-founded fear of persecution. in other words they do not feel safe to go home and is not safe to go home. if you, one danger of this crisis, one idea behind the book is that 65 million feels like dehumanizing number. it is almost so big that it cannot be comprehend. there is one in every hundred and 10 people on the planet. so it is a population, it would be the 23rd largest in the world if it were a country. the characteristics of these people i think are important to understand. half of the people are under the age of 18. half of the world refugees are children. they will come back -- will come back to what that means

for refugee resettlement. if you think about the debate of refugees arriving in the us, 47 percent of those i have been allowed to come to the us after the kids. but one of characteristics that they are children. the second characteristic is very important about the displaced population. there displaced for a long time. many of us, my own family -- their people and stream of family heritage of displacement during the second world war displacement was for a limited period of time. those who survived, my mother was a refugee from poland in 1945. my father was a refugee from belgium in 1940. today, the average length of displacement is 10 years. and once you've been refugee for five years, the average goes up to 21 years. so essentially, we are talking about not just a large scale of displacement. 65 million people, 25 million

refugees. we are also talking about long-term displacement. the third characteristic i think is incredibly important. half of the kids, tenure average displacement, 60 percent of refugees live in urban areas. not in camps. if i had $10 every time i am asked, do you work in a camp? i would be a rich man. the truth is that, most refugees are not in camps. 60 percent are in urban areas. so the challenge for them is different than in a camp. you would be pretty much guaranteed food in a camp and if you will realistically get healthcare. in an urban setting, you're not guaranteed that food or the health care. we have an urban displaced population as well as a young displaced population as well as a long-term displaced population. and there's another book to written.

maybe we will come back to questions but i want you to have in your mind, that there are about 20 to 25 week states around the world that do not have the political otsystems th can contain religious and ethnic and political differences. as recently in the news and for 100,000 people were driven out of the country in nine weeks. the political system did not give citizenship did not recognize him properly and they torched villages. they have got 20 or 25 -- that do not share power are not able to share power effectively. secondly a week and divided international political system. this is the international affairs part of the story and the background. the international political system is weak and more divided. in some ways weaker than world war ii. thirdly and very difficult to talk about but it is honest not

to mention, albert einstein -- 25 percent of the beneficiaries are muslims. a large part of the refugee crisis is located in muslim majority countries. syria, afghanistan, those are two prime examples. and the -- south sudan has refugees and has nothing to do with islam. but the fact that there is this electric, explosive debate within the islamic world, that in my district here, it puts pluralism against purification. essentially, radical selloff -- a debate within islam. that is producing these large numbers of people with that

degree producing -- none of these are short-term trends. this is divided international system, a huge debate within the islamic world about the future and how engaged with the rest of the world. there is a long-term trend, and so, what we are dealing with i argue in the book is something that will basically go on for the rest of my days. a long-term crisis. not something that will go away. then the second question becomes, why should we care? and an obvious reason is that i was brought up roto believe tha you are someone need and you are able to have them in your don't, it is a crime. there is a moral court to this that i do not think is something to be ashamed of. we no longer have the excuse that the crisis is something we don't know about. even in the 1990s.

people said about the debate in yugoslavia i am not sure was really happening, i don't know. even in 25 years. i mean certainly, if you think back to some of the refugee crisis in the 70s. ignorance was used as a excuse. in the mind. there are the 30s . today we do not have the excuse. we actually know the circumstances of people in south sudan and aleppo, and is a choice about whether or not we as part of the richer western world, define giving anything. then there was a moral choice. we have our own problems at home, charity begins at home. my point to athem is that charity does not end at home. and that is the central moral choice that i think you have got to address. and it is putting stark relief when you learned that a country like uganda, where the average income is $962 per year. per person.

it has taken a million refugees. over the last year. when i went to uganda in june, i went to south sudan for a nutrition program.then i went to see how they were handling the refugees. i went to the deputy chairman of the local counsel in northern uganda. which is receiving all of these. so he is elected politician. and i said to him, what you think about this refugee crisis? 'show will you deal with it? he said i will tell you one thing. i am not building a wall. [laughter] and so, that, this is the age of globalization. i mean he knew about, this debate, your debate. the american debate had reached their deputy chairman of the council in northern uganda. so there is a moral dimension but one of the things that bring out in the book that i think is really important is that humanitarians cannot rely only on an argument about being hard. initials making hardheaded of

them is a big part. and i think that the strategic argument for exercising responsibility. i am not ashamed to talk about the west. i think that west is made big mistakes. with the origins of the west is a wonderful phrase reject quote - from jessica fisher who was the german prime minister. some of you may be even spoke here when he was prime minister. he is a marvelous phrase about the atlantic charter signed by churchill and roosevelt in 1941 in newfoundland. a four-month time between the us entered the war. what they spent the time talking about was not just the conduct of the war. the atlantic charter was about the framing of a postwar peace. and churchill was forced to swallow the harsh medicine that empires would have to give independence to their colonies. so self-determination was an important part of this.

rule of law, social justice, international cooperation. and what jessica fisher says was that he was the birth of the west. a beautiful notion really. my argument is that there are historic reasons as well as strategic reasons and national security reasons for believing that tackling the refugee crisis is in our interest not just the right thing to do. if we trash our own history by trashing the refugees eventually trash on history and it is dangerous for our understanding. there is a strategic argument that in the modern world in the global village of someone else's house is on fire then your house is on fire. and i live and work in new york. but if you are -- you know that this crisis doesn't stay in syria in the middle east it washed up on europe's shore. but there is also a national

security argument. this is about the national security case for america exercise responsibilities appropriately and respectfully. and we had a discussion about how there is nothing more powerful for the recruiting sergeants of isis than to be told that the us has not got the back of oppressed muslims around the world. and it is shocking but true that the isis ãsocial media channels literally were celebrating when the president put out the executive order stopping refugees coming from the us. so there is an ideological national security argument. it is true that isis has been vanquished where we have operations that have been vanquished in parts of iraq. i will tell you in some ways it

is on the back but this is a generational and ideological challenge. not just a short-term military challenge. so i think that is strategic arguments as well as moral arguments dealing with this crisis. >> you might agree that this is a big crisis and we should do something but hathen there is nothing that can be done. and my tasty was that we have to change the way humanitarians work in fundamental ways if we are to do justice to the length of displacement and length of this placement perfectly. hospice care and hope that they are in the vortex of this and united henations which is part the middle of this. and the nationstates are retreating and international system. but i am very clear that a mess we reframe our approach to humanitarian endeavor will fail. this is about fundamentally

taking on the fiction that this is a short-term crisis. the fiction is helpful for hosting g countries. i do not want to name names but uganda, jordan, etc. it is quite convenient that they can say look at these people eager for a short time. we need shelter for our brothers and sisters in the short term. truth is, the refugees will stay for less than sone percent of the worlds refugees went home last year. but the fiction is also convenient for the west. it allows him to say we will give you short-term to keep these people alive. and essentially, we are $750 million organization. we are trying to tackle long-term problems of violence against women, unemployment, ill health. and short-term grants. which is crazy. it is changing the mindset. i think four things are really important to change in mindset.

one, which is say the expectation is adult refugees are able if you are displacement average of 10 years you need to be able to work. that is only going to be possible if countries k.like jordan that of supporting or hosting refugees are given massive economic support. jordan has pegged to the dollar. they have an imf program for they have debt that has gone up from 54 percent to 96 percent of national income. and they have got 650,000 registered refugees. so they made a different time of the world bank, international and and at the moment they short-term a. and they say, i have 33 percent unemployment among jordanians. if i'm going to let refugees work i need to ensure that my own population gets proper will help. and the truth is if you say it refugees are not to work it does not mean that they work

officially. it will drive them underground and it is a safety protection benefit as well as economic benefit. they become taxpayers. so there is an employment chance. technically, the saddest statistics that some i've discovered in the last four years, is that half of all refugees are children and less than two percent of humanitarian budget goes on education. less than two percent! total scandal! so incredibly stupid. treasure 50,000 series in lebanon that have never had education since they left syria. it is a moral scandal, it is strategic. we have to take on the idea that education is a luxury. not a lifeline. but first and parents will say to you after they tell the relatives they are alive when they land in europe is, where

do i get education for my kids? can we have a very exciting week coming up. we partner with sesame street which some of you may have heard of. and we are in the running to win $100 million prize from the macarthur foundation on do12 december that would address early childhood trauma among refugee children in the middle east. a lot of these people you know we have to build schools get a lot of these kids, they're not in a mindset when they're ready to go to school. the toxic stress, the brain trauma of displacement, they need really early social economic intervention and support and this would be the largest early childhood development program ever in a humanitarian refugee or we have to think that avthe education i completely different. third, maybe surprising, of this. what is the thing that refugees lack the most?

cash, money. if you're searing refugee they do not have access to a searing bank account. we can come back to the question if you're interested but time is marching on. the basic idea that since refugees are living in urban areas they need to pay rent, and buy food, the best thing you can give them is not included as cash. not necessarily dollars you can do electronically or safely. it is a powerful way of empowering refugees. also a powerful way bring economic benefit to a local community. because they are paying rent, they are -- the fourth and final element is, we have two address, win the augment offering a small number of refugees to our own shores is symbolic to the fight against the refugee crisis.

and it is, i can say this. i'm not american i observe your politics it is a real tragedy that the candidate has the most successful refugee resettlement program, a bipartisan program welcoming about 90,000 refugees per year to the us. 90,000, we're not talking big numbers. not big compared to uganda. it is a tragedy that the program should be strangled quite frankly. the administration said that they were going to put a cap of 45,000 rather than 90,000. in the figures with published last week show that your country, you will end up with a maximum of 15,000 refugees coming in. it is a complete scandal. effectively, refugee resettlement, it means meeting the family the apple, getting into school, getting the adults to work, teaching them english, giving them a car loan. we published a paper on this. the car loan repayment rate among refugee families are

higher than others so 98 percent of the car loans that we issued to refugees, people say what is different about being a refugee resettlement agency one thing is that we have to help people get cars. the 98 percent of the car loans get paid back where 88 percent for a controlled i mean it is a tragedy that that number is being strangled. and we run 26 offices around the us including west 33rd street here in new jersey. and it is starting to trickle. the number of people being allowed in. people have said it would be cheaper than two let's keep helping the refugees in jordan. why should we bother to have them come here? and the answer is that for some of the most vulnerable refugees, a new start in life is what they need. number two, it is a symbolic stand with countries like jordan. because it is one thing for the king of jordan to say american people give me money. says but, the ne

americans are refusing to take refugees. tand he gets ashley they are stepping up in europe is stepping up and others are playing that role. thirdly, as i'm sure that there are stories in this room. it is actually good for the country. refugees become deep productive and patriotic citizens because they know the price of living in a country that does not give them freedom and things like that. my point is that the argument that the crisis is unmanageable, is actually not true. it is just not -- is big news. the truth is that it is manageable if we do basic things that are more sensible and focused. i think that we should talk about whether it is possible to win the argument. i think it is possible. to win the argument. it is not possible to persuade everyone. you can end up with 13 percent

of people voting. but you can still win the election. and the absolute key is whether or not it looks like you are in control of your own country. and my diagnosis of your politics is that the real poison in the refugee crisis is not just the obvious point that it is easy to demonize muslims. it is the 11 million undocumented part of the immigration system that you have not had an immigration act since -- that has poisoned the refugee debate. and so, i think it is possible to win the argument. let me finish up by saying what can you all do other than purchase my book? the first is that your voice matters. rsone of my reflections is that we have not made the argument convincingly enough and it has become almost like we were saying in europe it has become

accepted that we let refugees and and so the program is found that it is not properly understood. and my warning is that you will not have refugee resettlement program unless you argue for it.and we argue for it with congressmen, senators, congresspeople. your voice matters. second, there are refugees that have arrived and are still arriving. and they need to be buddies with your grandchildren.they need an explanation to how the system works. in english language. they need to be invited to your house for dinner. we have the airbnb running this thing with us where they are hosts that are invited to organize a dinner where they invite a refugee family. i nine airbnb host but we wanted to invite a family so we had a family that came to have dinner with us. and in the end the conversation

was about their 15 and 16 of kid and what advice can we give them about how he made school choices that would help him in the future. and they have not been able to have that conversation. so the human touch really matters. if you are an employer, give refugees a chance to get a job with you or business because they need a chance to make a success of their own. and give them a chance to get a job and obviously wanting to be supportive as well. we are one of the reasons i took the job that i thought this was not well enough known even in its own home turf. it is a great institution. it was founded by einstein in 1933. it does embody some of the most precious values of new york. it speaks to the history of the city in a profound way and we are now probably the largest ngo not in the universities and the hospitals obviously. but we would like you to become supporters. some of you already are but we

like those of you who are not to become supporters of the organization because it is a real jewel in the work that it does and it can make an argument. for the future of the country. thank you for listening. i'm very happy to have your questions. [applause] >> it is obvious that when they hired you to hire the right person. very inspirational, thank you very much. i'm sure there are a lot eyof questions. when the microphone comes to please identify yourself. >> hello my name is jim. he wanted us to talk about this question of democratic consent in the question-and-answer period. i think this is a huge issue. in early 2016, europe led by angela merkel reached the sort of bargain with turkey to basically block the onward

movement of refugees into europe. angela merkel would have said, if we do not do this, we will lose the support of our own population the fear that we lost control over our borders. should we think of that as a cynical act or as a necessary concession to the need for democratic consent that is difficult policies? >> one of the things that i was taught the universities i i, mike many come out whenever you're given a difficult question you should challenge the question. [laughter] in all fairness. if i would challenge you are premised, the ,argument in europe sewas not that we have t come to deal with turkey or we will not be able to contain the anger among the population. unless we come to a deal with turkey, we're not going to be able to manage the problem. which is a different point with the wgreatest of respect.

the question is, why was europe in a position that was not able to manage refugee flow and an effective way? and the answer is not instructed. number one, 2012 and 2013 when refugees first left syria and went to the middle east. because there are still plenty of refugees still coming from south africa. but when the refugee crisis broke, europe was focused on the euro crisis and the russian invasion of ukraine. so the european union effectively ignore the refugee crisis up until 2015. so it has been playing catch up. secondly because they are playing catch up it did not establish shared responsibility among the 28 countries for managing it. so the responsibility fell primarily to greece and italy. and wherever you first land you have to register for asylum. and then in germany and sweden. which was seen as the best place to go. best of europe opted out.

now, you cannot run the system using just four countries rather than 28. and then trying to persuade or to engineer what is called relocation, so successful refugees around europe it was not organize book. it is, that was the fundamental problem that faced angela merkel and 2016. 2015 she made a decision it is still the case today. only this year europe is a proper entry and exit system so everyone that comes into the border of europe is actually trapped. and the third thing was a security aspects. it was not properly done. and i think that it is not that a managed flow is unacceptable to the population. i think the lesson is that the choice, if you have a managed regulated flow people. it does not take away the difficult choices. because that is a different argument. a managed regulator before an unmanaged unregulated flow

people. because the pressure for them to come will be there anyway. in either europe manages a ineffective way or it doesn't. and fundamentally, you can win a majority as long as it looks like you're in control. mental psyche do not control the situation, he cannot hold that. that is my basic. >> my name is warren. is their future and convincing european public that accepting immigrants is advantageous of their society and fills their labor forces which otherwise would not be filled? i am speaking because of the lord that politicians who are nativist politicians, who are anti-immigrant politicians seem to have in places like germany, the czech republic, poland, hungary and seven austria.

i take your point that you have got to convince them you're controlling it. but as their political future and convincing european populations dubious about immigration that they need immigration to keep their societies moving forward? >> here's the point. first of all, immigration is different from refugees. let's just say that. i will answer your question about immigration but we are talking the immigrants are not refugees. the have different rights. if you are a refugee have a right not to be sent home. but if you are an innovate you have a right to be sent home if you are an immigrant. if you are a refugee is not safe to you to go back to a particular place. here is the real thing though which if i was, if i really have the answer, i will probably still be in politics. but the real part of this is

that countries and communities that had the most immigrants, are the happiest. the greatest backlash against immigrants, is in communities, cities, towns and villages and countries that have the fewest immigrants. i'm the hungarian tragedy is an example of this. but so is the uk situation. the most integrated and diverse communities are the happiest. it is true here as well. the biggest backlash against refugees are the place that hardly have any refugees. that is what makes me think that this is a manageable case. if it was the other way around, for the case pregnant say the people that did not have

immigrants in the community really love them. but those communities that did have lots of immigrants hated them. that would be a totally unmanageable political situation. but given that it is the reverse, you've got to believe it is manageable. also shown how not to manage it. and clearly, the decision may not think that it was not my decision, i was in the education minister at the time in 2004. zip decided that the eight countries that join the eu in 2008, we who are barreling along economically in the uk and that we were invincible, we said anyone, sure! poland, czech republic, it is fine to have uban open -- with the option of an seven year transitional. which is an unlimited number of visas. so we don't want to do that. it was clearly a mistake. we had a sstudy which said 50,000 would arrive and infect

100,000 arrived. so that speaks to the point about what it looks like you know what you're doing when in government. so is a long-winded way of saying that i think it is an argument that can be won. but in any case it has to be won. because the truth is that people are not going to move. the question is whether or not there moving legally or illegally. mi think it is winnable. i think it is not, in his slight different question and the review of my book and the first message this is very good i wish he had written a book on how to solve the following problem. the real issues at the communities that are most angry others being left behind economically. not only angry for economic reasons. also for social and cultural inand identity reasons. but unless we adjust economic disemboweling of the lower middle class, it is hard to continue anger. and that is a separate

question. >> my name is susan. you are so full of ideas and there so many things that we want to know more about. you have not have an opportunity to address -- he was not able to mention their name and there so many of them and they are affecting bangladesh. what do you suggest can be done? >> that is a great question which i've discovered in america when you say is a great question it basically means we do not know the answer. [laughter] people said that quite a lot and mid-america i have discovered! [laughter] we have been working in burma for 30 years. and we are responsible for dell provision 420,000 people in the state which is where this minority is and we have to be careful to serve muslims and non-muslims in the work that we do as we get terrible

difficulty. the first thing that needs to happen is that workers need to be able to still do their work for the remaining population. was there not being allowed to do. there is a political dynamic within the government. we poked through behind the scenes and although he was prevented or decided or that was prudent not use the word. he said if you do not sort this out i will use it. so there are politics there. on the bangladesh side, it is difficult because i'm afraid the history of the bangladeshis are not wanted to give refugee status. historically to the people that have been coming because there is an argument about whether they are -- it is sort .of difficult. but the, the point is that the moment they are being very open

to international help. it is not closing up. and they really need it. we are there. we have got an emergency team are trying to get registered which is taking a bit of time but is a real time to mobilize to support the bangladeshi government and people and dealing with this challenge. i think it is important also to say that there is a debate whether or not these people are should be in a particular camp or island. all of our experience is that when you separate people from their host community, then it being long-term funeral home for dreamers is what i call it. and so, i think we have got to try and make it a win-win. where is a win for the people and also for bangladesh. >> in this country, as i'm sure that you have seen, i'm sure

that you have seen that refugee equals muslim and the focus is on ithat issue. we have an extraordinary number of refugees coming in here from true crises in honduras, nicaragua, guatemala rate on our board is purely of sanctuary city problems which may be if you live in texas you would know more about. when you get very little knowledge or coverage here. i would be interested to know your take on that and what you are doing with that problem. >> in honduras at the moment or el salvador doing work within that triangle. there is undoubtedly people that are fleeing for their lives. often kids but not only kids. in my very strong view is that there is entitled to claim asylum as anyone else could i think the challenging thing for me is that i can get my head around a crisis in south sudan we have got rival factions, you have a broken political

process, regional and global players. you know it is within my understanding how you try to tackle the roots of the problem. in the el salvador, honduras leand guatemala situation, criminal gangs who are effectively terrorizing local population, it is a different root of the problem. and i would immediately say that i, it is beyond my competence as to what is the founding solution there. what is the root solution. i think dealing with the symptom though, you are absolutely right. it's a bit of a different issue to deal with undocumented immigrants pay people claim asylum, there is a due process that really needs to help because they are terrorized. especially edthe young. >> john richardson.

you talked about whether you can make people believe that you know you're doing with the government knows what is doing etc. i have lived here for 40 years so i do not know what is going on in the uk. i will talk about that afterwards but the refugees who are refugees because of war or religious intolerance or whatever, they are a smaller group than economic refugees. but, my problem in the center of this as i grow older is that we have enough problems with the insurrections and war and religious intolerance, etc. we have had that i guess since the 1930s in my experience. we have millions and millions of displaced people in the second world war.

when millions now but the background to this, which seems that no one wants to deal with is that the world population is increasing. it is increasing in particular in places like africa. where a good government is in short supply but people aren't getting more and more of them. how do you deal with this background problem that whatever you do in one case, because refugees here are refugees there you have this background, it is almost a doomsday background. how do you deal with that as a person in your position? >> i pointed to three relatively short-term trends. weak states and weak systems, and there are 200 year or longer deep structural trends.

one is on population and the other is around climate. which in a way they interact. what do we know about population? the thing that we know more than anything else, is that the poor you are the market they have. it seems perverse but it is ã we have this. it is important not to say africa, there are particular parts of africa where there are massive population issues. in the population after all is going. but it is tractable, not just in countries according to income but communities according to income. then you have birth control and their very best in local culture but they are also vexed

here because one of the things in it ministration here has done is ban any family-planning, etc. it affects us all around. our experience is that, we are working on a micro scale. so we are trying to work with refugee populations with family-planning, what we call birth spacing. to give women a bit of a break between having kids. it is a very long hold. i do not think it is, i have not got a easy way saying and how is tied into the conflict nexus good i do not see any data or not but it is a problem i don't think it excuses us from doing a range of other things along with sentiments, some of it actually helps in

the education is one of the biggest drivers against early marriage is actually getting adolescent girls into education. if you like you can take two or three i might be able to get through more. >> this will be a quick question. i would like you to go back to what you said about jordan and the three percent unemployment. what in practical terms, can they do coming up with jobs? i may not everyone can make guns. what jobs are there to keep people in the country? >> the european parliament is considering a 40 billion marshall plan for africa to help deal with the problem of migration. what do you think of that? thank you. >> i think we did a study about

jordan economy. the first is that there is a domestic side. the infrastructure needs of jordan are huge. it is groundwater but not only around water. there is a big or secondly there are significant possible service sector, and thirdly only four percent of jordan's exports go to europe. which is really very small. and the diagnosis is that there is not did mention of jordanian companies into european supply chains which is better. and to be fair to the eu, there is now an agreement of zero tariff with jordan.

those companies that hire 15 percent of refugees. answer one of the things we're working on is a welfare to work program for searing accused of jordanian companies reach the 50 percent threshold and they benefit from the free trade access to european markets. that is not a full answer. i can put you in touch with more detail work interest. on the transfer you're right that europe is very interested in how it conceives its development aid to different parts of the world including africa. fone of my lessons, think about the marshall plan, what was it? it was not just a development plan. it was a political plan. and it was also a private sector plan. and so if the european union means in real marshall plan that brings together different elements of governance and to pick up the point earlier, it does address issues to do with local conflict that does

address issues to do lwith economic hedevelopment. that does bring in the private sector including the indigenous african private sector. because there are 300 million people in the middle class. in africa. and he has a real chance of success. this is a discussion that we had with european, i was in n brussels last week. the two things are very difficult. i mean, incredibly difficult. one is, the relationship between development and he to -- humanitarian aid and objective. i argue strongly that should not be using development money to run and be the system strongly opposed security. we must not and that teaching the development budget in order to manage the migration. maybe secondary benefits from helping tackle poverty. in respect migration but they need to be kept separate.

and then, the much more difficult thing is this, the transport coming from libya. and trying to have any kind of systematic organized ongoing relationships it is very challenging. there are three or four different governance, it is always an ongoing g conflict in the country. we have massive profiteering of the people trade. getting a grip on that situation is really very challenging. [inaudible question] >> my name is ed. i like to ask you to expand upon your point skthat refugees

are -- it seems that this is a positive factor in peoples acceptance of refugees and they often meet refugees in the workplace rather than for schools. based on totally uninformed ãi would assume refugees at least have the means to escape political persecution eand format so they have some means, they're not simply shepherds and unskilled people. is there any study that shows they are in fact somewhat better prepared and educated and skilled to work than the average person in the country? >> former us diplomat. my question goes back to germany and turkey. both of these countries have taken enormous numbers of refugees. you have any comments on how

they are dealing with this. obviously we know about the rise in deutschland. but the status of refugees in terms of education of children and the other things, most importantly jobs. >> hi david. i am alex, i worked over and elizabeth. and it is a pleasure to hear you speak. >> why are you at the office today? [laughter] >> my question goes back to what you already talked about. the digital warfare issue. it is, definitely should be raising more eyebrows. and i wanted to hear your opinion. i would be interested to hear you speak about the rise of hate groups and the right-wing politics of the era. and in response to that, the

anti-muslim rhetoric that is a big part of the age of information and what we can do as not only concerned individuals but even in terms of advocacy and reaching out to the congressional leaders and what the next step is in protecting -- and get into good accurate representation of the vital work that we do. >> thank you. let me do this in reverse order. what is your job? [inaudible] >> fantastic. case management means some of the most difficult challenging cases the families that come over. he is working with them to try and help them integrate into american society. thank you very much for your work. for your effort and for being here. i do not resent that at all. the -- i'm sure you'll do an extra hour work tonight to make up for it! [laughter] i think that there are a couple

of things. the tweet that the president put out yesterday, has got i think it is really important for the american audience to understand why it has such a massive ranch in the uk. obviously there is a point in the lesson. maybe not proper coverage for the obvious point is that it was a hateful illegitimate, untrue, set of videos that were demonizing fellow citizens. and inciting hatred against them. from a group that had been successfully prosecuted for inciting religious hatred. we have a law in the uk against incitement of religious hatred and this bill the group had been found guilty. of it. that is bad enough. the fact that a member of parliament was killed last year by people shouting were --

britain first. this was a complete explosion of theory really which is the only way to put it. and i hope that the president understands, he should break the habit and apologize is what i said. it would actually be, make himself look so much better. he does not seem to take my advice. [laughter] i think it is important to ndunderstand the point of what sort of chasm or a sore that it created. you cannot just say it is another tweet matter. because for obvious reasons. now -- there is a lot of online and off-line islamophobia. my view on this is the same as with hatred directed towards any religious or racial group.

which is, there are big responsibilities and members of that group to speak up. so it is important that people of islam are able to say i am a muslim who is a member of the american armed forces and this is offensive to me and everything i stand for. i am a muslim who is in the business or in sports or whatever. ... but with the debate of anti- submitted them so one of the first reactions but with a parliamentary committee it is headed by somebody who is not jewish. so to take i think taking on hate is all of our responsibility, and if you pass by on the other side and

don't challenge it, you're actually sanctioning it and endorsing it. it's very difficult but why the chinks in the armor are so dangerous. it looks like -- by the way, this britain first group, they've gone from having 12,000 followers online, to having 78,000. actually it's the fuel they've been desperate for. there's a very long answer on turk gentlemen germi. obviously they're different. turkey, 2.7 million refugees 200,000 in the camps, quote-unquote, five star camps which have extensive, health, education, but not employment. then for the rest of the 2.5 million it's a very varied picture. there are work opportunities. companies have to take one-for-one and also a lot of below the line work that is abusive and dangerous. so there's a lot of protection. the german situation is

different. i don't want to -- careful how i say this -- it's very well organized the way the germans have gone about this. it's incredibly impressive. a million asylum seekers essentially arrived, and if you go to -- i was in germany last month, outside stuttgart, and the smallest town of $40,000 has 600 refugees who are integrating into the local society. there's a public responsibility, also a private sector responsibility. schools. it's really quite impressive. critical to it is that the asylum processing claim is done quickly, and there are about 40% to 50% of the asylum kramers who don't qualify, and sounds lightly odd to say this but if you don't qualify as a refugee you shouldn't be allowed to stay. you need to be given an

appropriate trip back. otherwise you corrode the basis of the system and it's been pretty well run. having said that, people are people and always rough edges. i think, to pick up the point raised earlier, they've used the time to really -- and the pause to get themselves well organized. they need help from the rest of europe. just to finish up, there are plenty of shepherds and agricultural workers. a very mixed picture. some are dentists and accountants and -- others are very unskilled. we do, though, have evidence of how refugees do in the u.s. and there's a government report showing -- suppressed government report -- it was leaked -- over a 20-year period, 63 -- i have in my head, $63 billion dividend

for the u.s. economy as a result of the work -- so, refugees contribute more over a 20-year period than they cost in taxes and benefits. so we do have got aggregate evidence. we can build up more of it, and i think that the important thing for me is not to pretend that everybody is going be a software engineer because it's not as simple as that. obviously half of the kids downtown dough know. but these are kids who really know the cost of the terror they've suffered, and they are surprising the opportunity they have been given to restart their lives and that makes them good neighbors and good employees. >> thank you for a very stimulating discussion. the become is available. [applause]

[inaudible discussion] in. >> next weekend, c-span's cities tour takes you to newport, rhode island, we'll scour the literary escape and historic sites. next week end, beginning saturday at noon eastern on booktv on c-span2, and sunday afternoon at 2:00 on mesh history tv on c-span3. working with the cable affiliates as we explore

america. >> here's a look at some of the current best-selling books according to amazon: our look at the best-selling becomes continues.

most of the awe thor have appeared on booktv. you can watch them on our webs, book tv.org. tonight, on "after words," georgetown university law professor peteredle man looks at the way the courts penalize the poor through excessive fines and fees in this book "not a crime to be poor: the criminalization of poverty in america." interviewed by georgia congressman hank johnson. >> was poverty an issue in terms of the war on drugs or the victims of the war on drugs? >> sure. >> how did poverty play into that? >> no men around. what happens to families. what happens to the men who have been locked up and all the collateral consequences so they can't get jobs, they're not allowed to live in public housing.

45,000 laws across the country, i collateral consequences of one kind or another, it destroys somebody's life. if they weren't poor when the went into prison, they're definitely poverty stricken for the rest of their lives. it's totally connected to poverty. >> watch "after words" tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern on booktv on booktv on c-span2. >> i'm not an expert on patriotism, but as much as anything, the effort of the book is to start a conversation about what it is in this time and to make sure that people do understand that by dictionary definition, there's a difference between patriotism and nationalism. patriotism is, of course, a deep love of country, but one key of patriotism and about a patriot is humility.

we don't -- if you're a true patriot you don't beat on you chest and say, we're better than everybody else, we're the best, the strongest. your humble enough to know that we're in search of a more perfect union in the very beginning of our constitution said, in order to seek a more perfect union. so, that's patriotism. nationalism carries inherent in it a certain amount of arrogance and conceit, and the danger with nationalism carried to extremes is you have -- you can have extreme economic nationalism, and also racial nationalisms as na aryan nationalism, and we know that. one thing i wanted to do with what unites us is remind people of the historical perspective that follows. that extreme economic nationalism in the 1920s, led to the great depression.

and aryan nationalism, racial nationalism, led to adolph hitler. i'm not suggest wearing at this point. i am suggesting with the authoritarian nature of the present presidency, sometimes it's only a short distance to extreme nationalism, which can lead to nativism, and then that can lead to tribalism. and then our great historical never before the history of mankind experiment that is the united states, that tribalism, if we ever descend into tribalism, then we're through as the land of the free and the home of the brave. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. the c-span bus continues its 50 capitols tour this month with stops in raleigh, columbia, atlanta, and montgomery. on each visit we'll speak with state officials during the live

wow washington journal "program, follow the tour and join us on wednesday at 9:30 a.m. eastern for our stop in raleigh, north carolina, own the guest is north carolina attorney general josh stein. good afternoon. i'm mike frank and i'm the director here at the washington, dc office for the hoover institution. welcome. we're having a discussion led by lee edwards, our honored guest today, of his latest book, an auto biography and the hoover institution point i'll make is that lee's