speeding up breathing and those are good responses to help you escape danger. altruists have a really healthy fear response which is why they emphasize with other people's here. when they see someone else who is afraid they are good at re-creating what that state feels like and understanding how they feel so even while they know what it feels like to be afraid they don't act afraid so it helps highlight the distinction between being fearless and being brave which is what they are. >> every weekend booktv offers programming focused on nonfiction authors and books. keep watching for more on c-span2 and watch any of our past programs online at booktv.org. >> we will take motions from

the floor. >> thank you for coming this evening, a special panel on how to publish with the university press by columbia university press, university press 2014. we really like it. this is your first time here. welcome. we are so happy you found us. for over 20 years we have been in new york city's intellectual academic community, happy to carry one of the largest selections of academic titles in the city and columbia university press has been with the greatest partners and supporters. tonight's conversation is moderated by jennifer crewe, director of associate press. procedural note, c-span booktv is here recording this talk so during the q and a portion, wait for a microphone to come

to you so they can record your question. i will turn it over to jennifer. >> thank you very much. i do want to say, we love you too. this is one of the most important bookstores for university press to wander the aisle and feel a lot of us represented here. i want to thank panelists, james, you have a special title. the department of english and comparative literature at columbia university, nicholas dames is the author of two books both published by university press, 1810-1870, and reading neural science and

fiction. he also writes on contemporary literature and humanities, the novel reading etc. for many publications including the atlantic new york times book review, the nation and public books and that leads me into sharon marcus, literature at columbia university and dean of the humanities, ending her deanship. her first book, city and home in 19th-century by the university profess and her second book, marriage, desire and friendship was published by princeton, and also i should mention public books again

because 2012, sharon and caitlin at nyu cofounded public books, an online magazine that features really great accessible writing by scholars and other people in the community, activists and writers it is a great publication. all the way over there to my left is eric schwartz, my colleague, editor and director, editor of sociology and cognitive science and basically run the acquisition department and worked at princeton university press and cambridge university press and a lot of university presses represented here. i just wanted to start by stating the university press, some people don't know what makes the difference from another publisher. either a commercial trade publisher that publishes most

of the fiction in general nonfiction you might read, also how the difference between commercial scholar publisher, first of all we are a not-for-profit organization. all university presses are, that doesn't mean -- we try not to incur too much of a loss but we are not-for-profit and we are not out to just sign up books that will earn money for the organization. secondly, we are situated with the university. university is our middle name so our goals, our missions at the university admission at university press are entwined in some ways and university wants to foster research in a generation of scholarship to disseminate that scholarship, to be deteriorated and get out into the world. we also publish important books that a commercial publisher would not take on because they

would not make any money for the company. they might lose money. there are commercial scholarly publishing, an increasing number, but they price them out of reach for most normal human beings so the university presses to try to reach an audience of educated general readers with their books and pricing is usually set to that level. next our method of acquiring books, eric runs the department differs from other kinds of publishers so our editors often do have a degree in the field or had some kind of graduate training and are given areas of specialization to acquire them. we have a history editor who also does economics and philosophy and religion editor

so they become specialists in those areas, they go to the conferencees, they develop expertise in a group of people they cultivate and learn about the new trends in the field. the main relationship would be with an agent. we do deal with agents sometimes, the trade publishers, the main person they are cultivating are the agents they are dealing with and try to get the agents for books they would like to publish. and the other thing university presses publish several types of books that only specialists would read but we also publish trade books that you would find at barnes & noble and we publish course adoption books we know would be not a kind of course adoption that pearson would publish because it is two

small markets but we are happy to have it because the books sell year after year. and we do rigorous peer review for every book we consider and this is particularly important in today's atmosphere of fake news and concerns about inaccuracy in the information that gets out there. we publish work that is vetted and verified. and finally we have a publication committee and nick happens to sit on that committee now, most university presses have such a committee. they read the peer reviews and they hear what the editor has to say about the book and a portion of the manuscript and they are the final okay. if they agree we can all have a contract for a book and that is different for the publisher. and i thought i would talk

about university press and in the end a sense of how we work and go about looking at books and accepting. i will group my questions around various topics and the first is peer review which i just mentioned. this was briefly essential to our mission of advancing scholarship and what it means is something we are considering, manuscript or proposal who the author does not know we are sending, they don't know who it is, and sharon and nick, first of all, as an author and graduate student advisors and in your case may be as former

administrator, what do you think of the value of peer review? >> i think peer-reviewed, having your ideas evaluated by experts and it is important to do that and when you get a book from university press it is evaluated by two experts writing anonymously without worrying about the politics that affect the academy. it would be interesting if peer review were double-blind and didn't know who they are reviewing. and tests the books that are published for how original they are or how accurate they are and help them modulate their scope so book that may come across as very narrow in the peer review process might be very interesting and you might expand your argument to include

questions about housing construction and inspection or might conversely say you are overreaching with this argument, the key to understanding cosmology, ratcheted down a bit so it is great to have other people read your stuff and without the dynamics involved, get their honest opinion but for young scholars it is a great preview of the tenure process and protection against the internal politics of your department and university, outside experts ratifying your book, mostly if it is working properly on its own terms and peer review helps us honest. i recently had an article peer-reviewed and it was very valuable to know the person writing it didn't know anything about me, just reading my arguments and telling me what

works and where they wanted more evidence and it was extremely helpful to get those responses and feedback. >> you could add to that but also add something about your role in our publication because nick will read the peer reviews of these books in all sorts of fields and how you judge those. >> sharon gave a great summary of that is i would only add one thing and the peer review system ensures a sort of meaning to books. one thing peer review is good at weeding out our repetitions or reiterations, and a great parable about this, some of you will know what i am getting at. one of the main characters working on a lengthy monograph and confirmed by a young man, the germans have done all that.

there is a way of doing that with peer review but there's a way peer review does mitigate repetition in a field so if something is peer reviewed there is a stronger claim of a new contribution to knowledge and without that and when i see peer reviews what i look for besides theoretical actions, i want to see the reviewer provide a summary of the book, that shows there was an attempt to read the manuscript with sympathy. if a peer reviewer only fixes on details that to me is often the sign that it was not read well and was red with a subterranean ax to grind that i'm not aware of. should be able to suggest the limits of that argument as well as newness of it. the first thing i look for when

i judge that. it is more informative than that. i wanted to mirror back to me there since as a reader was it would look like him. >> there are times we have to read behind the lines, sometimes somebody will damn with faint praise. if they don't want to say this isn't a groundbreaking original scholarship, you can get at it that way. >> you read a lexicon of terms that are faint praise and strong praise. >> from your point of view as an editor. >> often interesting when there is conflict in your views so reader a has particular reading

or slightly different reading and the author has to engage with one of those readings to determine what is the argument they actually want to make. and it would make for a better, more engaged book and lets us as a publisher know the author is committed to this project and they will defend and stand up for the argument they are making. peer review from an editorial perspective keeps them going. there is always a move to try to do the book that is more sensational or will sell more copies and knowing our projects are going to be judged by scholars in the field, members of the publication committee and members of the publication committee, we meet with the publication committee the final

thursday of every month. at times where you are going in there and you have work you have invested time in and you have 2 in some cases defend those projects, sometimes you succeed and infrequently you don't succeed but it is important to keeping us honest and we often think about books we consider for publication, what with the perception of the publication committee be of this project before we even get started down the road of the peer review process. >> as i'm concerning to this conversation i realize i should mention for anyone who is particularly interested in peer review that the aau p, association of university presses recently put out a kind of best practices book on peer

review if you're interested in it or what to expect if your book is peer reviewed it is a handy guide. i also wanted -- something that occurs to me about our committee there are people on it from nine different fields across humanities, social sciences and science and business and the way scholars in different fields react to review is quite interesting and the types of reviews you get, humanities might get 7 pages singlespaced with lots of -- the person really read every word and is making helpful suggestions and typos and things like that and you might get something in the finance area -- science too, you might get a paragraph. >> they understand time is

money. one person from business school once told me that, time is money. it is something that stands out and when it works well it makes the book a better book and the editor helps guide the author and helps us understand as publishers publishing this kind of publishing, some of it very specialized and none of us knows the field well so these reviews help situate the market. >> also use the review process as an opportunity for network building for the author and to add diversity to the reception of the book so i will often look if there is a book across fields i will select a reviewer and try to get a reviewer in one field and another and another and the senior person and a junior person, often

times readings can be very different and it can be useful for the author especially junior authors, thinking about those that would be important for them to know those people out in the field to know their work, really great opportunity to build networks and use placements to do that. >> something i don't think we mentioned, we often say to others if peer review is picking up something in that book, the author doesn't want to deal with it we often say this could be a preview of what could happen when you have the book published and there is a published review of it, this is the kind of issue that could come up so might as well catch it now before it is published. i thought we would move on to acquiring these books, what are

the different ways editors look for books to consider for publication and how do their methods differ depending whether it is a monograph or trade book or test book. >> we have a variety of ways that require books, there are projects, different fields are different that way. our science editor could go several years before someone comes over the transom for him but the philosophy editor -- there are different fields that are different in that regard. the number of books we will acquire based on that method is very small. we also make editors make visits to campuses come we go to academic conferences and use those as networking

opportunities to find out what projects people are working on and each one of our lists has a personality to its. broadly speaking columbia books are global. we want our books to have a certain feel on the entirety of the list. they could be perfectly good project that simply don't fit that brand identity and might not be right for us. we get projects from agents on occasion. we go to the frankfurt book fair and that is an enormous yearly book fair in germany where every publisher in the world attends, there are 300,000 attendees at this year's, they open it to the public saturday and sunday and i had the good fortune of being in the train station is all the players were swarming into the

train station as i was leaving, they were going to frankfurt and also commission project so by being in a field you often know the structural holds in a given field, there is a real need for an economics book on a certain aspect of climate change and wouldn't it be great if x person wrote that book and so you are writing to people that way, seeing somebody write an op-ed, writing to those authors saying wouldn't it be a great idea if you wrote this? a whole variety can get books into the pipeline. >> thinking about public books where you are trying to reach beyond the academy a little bit. i am curious about what you think, you are on your third

book. when do you think i want to reach beyond a smaller audience to a bigger audience and how does it play in your mind about what kind of publisher you would go to? >> i suppose every writer looks at lists and often fantasizes about the list that fits them best, but it is often a process of discovery with an editor and peer reviewer and publication committee often very good at identifying what was identified or sometimes out of reticence or ignorance. as you are writing a book you imagine a dialogue but there may be a third-party out there you are talking to or want to

bring into the conversation but i too scared to or don't know if you are qualified or simply ignorant of his. in a way, scanning a list is a way of seeing what possible audiences are given press and is that something i want to take on? >> one of the things you ask ahead of time is choosing between trade press and university press if you have a project that could go either way and i am finishing the book right now on celebrity, working on it for a long time and i tell academics about it they say a great trade book but i'm publishing it with university press, very happily because for several reasons. if you have a book that could swing either way why would you go with university press? it creates glamour. but if you publish with

university press they will let you keep your footnotes and if you are a scholar you are attached to footnotes. they will try to argue you out of them and put them in a crazy format where you can't say anything properly. if you publish with university press you are free to write a book that is argument driven and these days if you publish with the trade press they are going to ask you to write a book that is narrative driven. argument driven books are driven by ideas like why are so many people so obsessed with celebrity. a narrative driven book is driven by characters and events and would start with something like on november 2, 1882, sarah bernhardt woke up to find out and i personally didn't want to write this book that way and if you're going to write a book that is narrative driven you

can see the story from the start and there are only a few people and i'm not one of them who can make an argument through narrative. that is a very tricky thing to do and it is easier to make an argument as an argument and the argument can be compelling and have their own suspended i chose to put my energy into that and i am happy to be in a press the embraces - and university press embraces that are not hostile to narrative driven books either especially historians often write more narrative driven books. that is all i will say. there are other is for university press. in the company of other scholars in your dialogue and their books help your books seem more compelling and your books reflect on their books as well and that is a very good

thing to do where in a trade press your book might not fit in very well or you might end up being in a fancy party as opposed to that. >> in a long span of time. so the nice thing about university press is we really want the book to have lasting staying power. we want our books to contribute to a debate or spark a debate that may last decades. often it is said that the ideal successful university press book tells the rest of the thousand copies in its 10th year. means in year 101000 copies, not 1000 copies and then it is

year 10. the reason being that zen is a book that gives meaning for, people are using it for teaching and learning and it has had an impact in a meaningful impact on its field where as a trade publisher, they exist to make money and if the book doesn't sell well they move on to other products and so on and so forth and we make it a little more of a commitment. >> it is interesting that your comment about the argument, we had that conversation around our table, does this book have an argument, is it going from beginning to end or sometimes people will submit books that okay, chapter on this and that and they help with the introduction and conclusion to bring it all together and it doesn't work and makes a difference whether we can sell it, articulate that argument so

that is what we are looking for. but i'm going back a little bit. one other thing i want to say in response to you is our sales in any given year, 65% of our revenue comes from backlist books and those are books being used in courses and some were developed as course books but a lot of them were monograph from first books, they were field changing or something happened and enough people noticed it and thought it was worthwhile and important to further the field to have students read it so some of them might only sell 50 to 100 copies a year but they keep selling and they were published as a monograph and we thought they would sell a few thousand and that was it. it is hard to predict which

ones they will be. that is the other thing. actually about the textbooks and trade books, when you are sitting on the publication committee, you realize, this book is going to be a trade book, we will sell a lot of copies and i am wondering what goes through your head when you think about those different types that we are doing.

decides that was that now i'm moving on to any next thing but that doesn't happen very often so both of you i'm wondering what were the differences in your experience as publishing between the first and second book? >> i had oh kaition about five years ago to read introduction to my first bock and i was rocked by how much i felt i had to engage with with other scholars. i would say something and then i would say so and so said that and i disagree with that and taking issue with that but i'm building on this web and as

someone without e tenure and who knew my book would be evaluated by 10 to 0 people outside of my pelted all of whom looking to see what i had to say about their work because they would have been selected -- because there was relevance of mine. i don't know who ten or 20 people will be in advance, i felt that i had to spend a lot of energy on situating my ideas in the scholarship and foreground that and in my second book, well i was still in turn to say i was a floor but a scholar in what am i saying on what they build of what people have said before and new, and i presented my ideas first, and i put much later in the introduction how does this build on and overturn previous theg and one of the reasons i did that was i gave the introduction to frengtd of mine who is a journalist and women doesn't

mince her words but i want to know what you have to say that's why i'm reading your book. okay and i have the freedom to do that now. so it shall you have a lot more federal with your second book in terms of topic, method of presentation, and freedom to foreground your voice and your ideas more. sharon we have reflect in dirveght ways. i had a tremendous time writing a book because i was so ignorant of the audience that i was writing it for it was like writing a all right. it was such a novel i was writing to my advisors in installments i knew they bought into any idea. you know, it was -- easy and happy writing but i can detect in my first book like a

layer that came at the very end which is exactly sharon described it sort of sub anxious defense i haveness about all of the various things i hadn't said. various people i needed to address, and that sort of -- you know thin kind of o topsoil on top of it. i do feel that second book it's much more thoroughly integrated i was already aware of who that audience was. felt reasonably comfortable among them, and so it's more integrated i can say what wasn't always the most happy writing experience. but it is life. right you lose that i guess, and with, you know, like you trade happiness for something like a sense of security i guess and it is all sounding very down beat or at the very least -- but it shall you know, i think that's a security meant that it is much hard per to tug at that layer of discretion of other scholar work and simply remove it whereas i think in the first

book that clearly was the case and i can see that glaring mow. >> can i say something that my graduate students so any graduate students say what should i do to turn the diserration into a book? and i feel that if the dissertation advising process has gone well, the actual answer is is very, very, little but i know that isn't what they wanted to hear and when hired at a job you have to demonstrate that the bock was different from your dissertation. but i think what happens is a lot of people spend three to four years laboring to transform their dissertation only to find that there really wasn't that was to exchange and probably could have sent is out in first year an maybe they should have wait to see if reviewers say you know you really need to discuss x and then -- add a chapter based on what reviewers are are saying.

so i'm going to mac what i think is probably a contrarian point and say that i think that junior scholars send dissertation out rather than later i think as advisors we need to be thinking about how dissertations can seem more like books. so i'm sure that you have reasons that for you dissertation is a dirty word and i would be willing to hear what makes a dissertation for you something that's a synonym for unpublishable. >> my advisor told me to write this as a book and i think problem is that most people they're advising circumstances or not as good as they could be. so they may have four committee members who each believe that they, that their student has written their dissertation as a book but they're only looking at the argument through their own lens. and that what often happens is

that -- dissertation is written to demonstrate knowledge for a small grouping of people. and it is not then that kind of argument , driven kind of work that you're describing before. and what we as editors need to do is to get first time arts to be able to make that work argument rather than kind of evidence proving or -- a demonstration of knowledge. as a dissertation your job so demonstrate you have knowledge and understand a field. and you're working to gain authority. as an author, authority, as you're to lose and best way to lose authority is to demonstrate immediately to the reader that you don't deserve it. pane i think that -- not being able to articulate that argument very clearly -- and have it be one thing is a great way to lose that

authority. >> on that note maybe i feel like sharon on this one. and it might just be our field, though, i suspect it's not. i often feel that, i mean, for me soflt most infliewn public books i have read has been first books and there's something unique about first book when done with well there -- utterly unique in a way that subsequent books are not, and you know, in fact, can be like arie, come out of nowhere, and be -- transform things instangtly is that something to agree with are you aware of that? >> i would agree with that completely. i get very excited by first books. because i think that it usually usually -- a good idea they are right now and fewer people can tell you with what to do and you're also the not as -- you're not as -- you don't need to take in

information in the same way that a -- that a junior person did does a junior person needs to know what every person in their department is doing and knowledge and engagement with what. a junior person is for dissertation taking in dissertation from other people to a junior people often know other junior people and engage with other junior people so there's just a greater body of knowledge often that junior people are accessing. and there, it is a hunger to be able to prove yourself and to say something new. and i think you often see that in first book. >> i actually want, something you said nick where you were having this happy experience writing for your four advisors, and what we usually see is, in first books is that it is clearly that person hasn't been able to expand this at 400 people. [laughter] opposed to four --

but there are exceptions to every rule and i've certain published several that were pretty much ready to go. so it really just depends and i think as you say a level of advising. so maybe i'll take one, one more set of questions and then take questions from the audience. what -- i wonder well maybe i'll ask eric this what's the best way you think for an author to approach an author who wants to publish a man ewe script and for nick and shane how do you advise people about choosing a publisher? >> so -- often you know the question often is like what's the times like -- where -- you know is it okay i have a proposal or a chapter or a -- i usually tell people you know when you feel like you can -- you have something articulate to say. i also i really like to hear from people even when they just

have something of an idea and want to talk with me about the idea and can we talk through this idea? and you know that's often when the most, most creative things happen. you know, kind of greatest frequency with which we have pen gaugements is, obviously, around academic confidences so sociology editor, my schedule at the asa book from, you know, from the moment the exhibit hall opens to close, and you know, it's usually every hour, almost eve half hour just talking request people about new projects that's when it is often easiest to see people who are at places that are harder to get to or you don't often -- see. but -- i think you know using -- using an editor editors a reare source is something i think that can be a real benefit to the scholarship just talk

through ideas. >> what about advising, you know, graduate students who are ready. how do you go about saying oh you might try this press or that press? >> i think that best advice or most helpful i can be is to say let me know when you're ready top send something out, and where you would like to send it and it i know an editor at one of the places i'll be happy to write to them and tell them to look out for your proposal or your e-mail it won't get you published but it will get you a quick or answer and a quicker read usually, and i tell people asking where should i send it. i say look at the books in your bibliography, are a lot of the recently published books you're citing from one or two or three presses those would be good presses unless your book is a blistering attack on every single one of those authors but

even then it's a sign that your engagement what editor at each of the presses is interested in, and you know, if it if anybody who is fortunate enough in the day and age to have a choice among presses and i guess that still happens sometimes take a look at how well the books are designed how u are they priced available are they and how long do they stay in precinct how ow good is is press at get their books reviewed? do they advertise their books when you go to -- a conference are a lot of tbhoox your field on the display table. those -- when you work really, really hard on a book and you want to know that press has resources and wherewithal and focus to give your book the -- biggest audience that it can which in the nature of things is pretty small. but also targeted easy to identify for academic books. s >> when i would absolutely just echo what sharon said with with only one edition to which is that --

as hard as it is for beginning academics to feel this way, do remember that as much as you want them to take this book you want to explore if this is the right place for you and it can be hard to feel a desperation you want that thing out in the world as fast as possible. but there are situations or that are not right. i spent my first book -- because of tip i got to an editor at a press who wrote back and said well this is great. i'm really are interested in if. you're going to have to rewrite every single in it but i'm willing to work with you on that. and understand no . i was for better or worse to addicted to my pros and i, you know, i'm glad i did what. but i think it was a hard thing to do given that -- something that being extended to o me at a vulnerable moment and i -- probably very much wanted to say yes. you know, i couldn't let go of the pros i think there are things that are worth not letting go of, and yowpght to be

able to pause even momentarily and say is this really right? if there's something is that's troubling me about this. so i i -- you know i issue that however hard it is to hear at that moment. invents the spirit of -- university press week, i would say it's really important i think for first time authors to contact several publisherses. you want to see who -- et editor and who has the same vision for your work successful publication is when the publisher exceeds the authors expectations. and you want, we want our author it s to be happy we want to work with our authors again and again. and -- have that author editor relationship and understanding of the work and how can you -- how as an editor can you help that editor do that work but

still do their work. not rewrite every sentence because -- you know, i believe that you should do that. but it -- that makes no -- that makes no sense to me. >> i would just add that -- people are especially with the first book stage very afraid of getting rejected but by far the -- you know, the biggest percent aiming of rejection simply has to do request fits you alluded to it earlier it doesn't fit the list or -- you know, we don't have an editor who, you know, qowld want to sponsor this because there's just not fitting in with that editor's program. so i wouldn't take the -- that kind of thing so personally. be prepared somebody will think it fits on the list and somebody won't. >> we have finite resources we can only publish a certain number of books properly. you know quare not a

volume-driven operation. and we want to make sure we give every book right level of attention, and we just simply can't do that for everything. >> so we've just kind of whirl wind tour but there are things that we misseds an love to have questions from the audience. the panel i'm currently writing my dissertation so i'm trying to second career i have to get this out fast. so -- what i wanted to know is, would be with a first book and takes approach tried to undo about 200 years of his story. now my first field i'm a lawyer so that all of the trait os argue with people are not sensitive you don't have to put things in footnotes but let's say you co, you follow all of the act of political conventions. and your work and your advisors agree they think it is great. but they tell you it is going to

be attacked but it is really good. but then you have your peer reviewers come and you're overturning their research and you're good at it. what happens then could they reject it just because you're disproving them? >> i don't think that would fly. i think if a peer viewer did that, if they revealed basically they were saying don't publish this because it overturns my work, i think that the press would sort of -- ivelgt wouldn't be that explicit. but they're reading between lines comes in. but people can tell when that's going on and they think most academics aren't lawyers but really a thick skin abouting being refuted and attacked, but people are much more upset about being ignored and overlooked than being disagreed with. i don't think anyone in academia had the experience of having our work engaged with accept in a spirit of reputation. so -- yeah, that tells you a rare day

when someone says i read what you wrote and i agree with what you said, instead they're taking issues. they have some questions, they have some doubts so people who are looking for it shall engagement, and if you're saying something controversial it will engage people and then there's just going to test whether you said muff to persuade them so i wouldn't worry too much about it. and i wouldn't assume that a report that is -- peppery or defense iive is going to sink a book. >> a very conscience when they send the book for peer revie and they don't want the outright but they're seeking critical but sheik readers and to the extent to determine that in advance they'll make that decision. i can see them make that exact determination and not i know they'll hate had. their job is not once they've taken the project on to that extent it isn't to get it shot down but read fairly.

>> many time where is that played itself out in the review process where we then are normal process to get to readers and then we have to go get a third one because we just say well this, this first review is just not really helpful. and you know we'll go get a third. we also do ask authors for suggestions for readers i find not necessarily who i go to but i find it useful to see who i think, who i think the -- author thinks is important and should be reading their work. i also ask for -- kind of you know people to avoid with the hope of not kind of stepping into that situation. we also we kind of remember who are the people who hate everything? you know, who are -- you know, right who are people l who give those real like those -- disengageed review and we don't go to them. >> nick said something really important that i want to underscore because it actually took me --

i think a deck kawed to realize that -- if they're sending out to readers they want everything to work out. everything hinges on a what peer reviewers say. but once you've got ton that stage is you're really past the major tree triage stage so keep that in mind it in terms of how you receive the feedback and spoke of it earlier about how you respond to the readers reports and that's also really or not. and i think that presses are looking for you to kind of stand business ideas but show your willingness to pen gauge with criticism. >> i'm the curious if any of you have experience i'm coming as a poet. looking to public a manuscript a lot of my favorites have come

from university presses i'm curious if any of you have experienced in books generally and how that process differs, obviously, not coming out of a dissertation process. it's more just creating art. so -- >> i don't know. but i know peel at university presses who do publish poetry and fiction. and they, i believe they still do have to get peer reviews but then again, they will ask the author you know, the author will have to explain, you know, my work is in, you know, following this sort of line of -- style these are poets that i admire and these are one who is wouldn't and then they send it out for review and discuss it but it's much more of a -- a subjective thing i think you're not looking for a contribution to the, you know, to scholarship or something like that. that's more subjective and

whether it will fit. fit with the kinds of things they do. >> oftentimeses too there's a series editor, so this is a poetry series that is -- that is by paul at one point. and basically people that he, you know, people work he likes, and it would go to publication comet and we have two reviews and everybody would just sort of look around at one another and say paul like it is. okay next projects. so we actually published fiction in translation and it's similar. we do get people in the field of russian literature or chinese literature whatever it is scholar who is give their opinion and also about whether the book would be taught or -- assigned in courses. but the conversation around committee is well it sounds good to me and really not going to -- stand in the way of something is like that. it is a series editor or editor

does like it. >> so when dissertation did did you start seriously looking for a publisher? i had no sense this would ever be published but there's a way i think it was oddly freeing. i treated it as i was writing it as a gail i was playing that -- you know qowld have a result but that result might matter to nobody other than me. only after it was done, did i start to look arounded. nobody said anything to me until it was done where it should go and that is still the case and coif a provisional period where the question is -- is this going to result in anything or not but it is uncomfortable in certain ways but i also think this flipside

of that discomfort is freedom and allowed to explore it it on your own, and you know, you have a great deal of the even thermal freedom how you imagine project to go. i do think that it is a bad idea particularly for dissertation writers to -- seemses to me prematurely aim at presses it's the most free tile you'll ever have. you will never have again a moment why you can really evolve something what -- personal you know in an odd way. so why sacrifice that and in the the end i think it often pays off. it's a more unique project if you don't try to -- pitch it from the beginning i think. >> i have a -- slightly different answer although ting in pragmatic term it is workings out same which is that there's -- overlap between reses of applying for jobs and thinking about putting your dissertation out as a book and in my experience what happened was in

applying for jobs, i had to, there used to be a lot more jobs to apply for than there are today so i applied for something like 30 jobs in process a lot of people learned what i was working on, and i think i'll never know for sure one or two of them mentioned what i was doing to an editor somewhere, and so there was -- continue knewty being finished with a project muff to have something to talk to editors about. >> i'll just add also that -- i couldn't do it until you're confident and comfortable muff to mind it being sent out for peer review and might want to proceed and like it and you might say wait not ready yet so i would try to feel what if you're confident in -- beginning that process. >> i'll say something more kind

of craft commercial kind of direction which is that there's certain fields like american history where editors are throwing themselves at human and graduate students working on something interesting because there's just -- published in that area, and there isn't necessarily there's not enough great work with -- and it can sell very well. maybe they don't finish maybe you have a project under confident and they don't finish they're not able to get a job. they leave academic community and you have a work that's on your list that orphan miss a way because you, you know, you have no network out in the world with which to promote it into.

also too, the writing your dissertation is a -- it's a job many and of itself, and to have two conflicting projects that are the same content going on at the same time -- you know your advisors want you to do this -- but the peer reviewers want you to do that. and -- what do you do? it just it shall puts from my standpoint is that's a concept that i don't need to deal with. >> anyone else? well thank you very much. thank you everybody on the panel too and buy some books. while you're here. boy a university -- support the industry . [laughter]

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