>> the happy warrior, and today he's here to discuss his new book, "drunks: an american history." please join me in welcoming chris finan. [applause] >> thank you. it's a real pleasure to be here in california. i just happened to be visiting, and i didn't really know what to -- how to dress when i was coming out here from new york. so i'm wearing tweed -- [laughter] so i'm going to take it off. i just wanted you to see that i do, in fact, have a jacket. [laughter] i, i love history, and i have for a long time. i studied history in school, in

graduate school. and what had always appealed to me as a historian was strong stories. and so my first book was a biography of alfred e. smith, the first catholic to run for president, a poor boy who became the great reforming governor of new york and then would have been a great president, but he got wiped out by herbert hoover. and i love that story. i spent 20 years writing it, and i decided when it was done, i'd better hurry up on the next book or i'd be dead. the next one was about free speech, which we kind of all assume we've always had free speech in this country. we have a first amendment, and it isn't true, you know? for the first hundred years, there was a lot of censorship in america. and the freedom we have today a lot of remarkable people fought for to achieve. this story, though, is very personal in the sense that it's still a history. it's not a history of me or my

family, but i am the most recent of a long line of alcoholics going back at least to my great grandfather, and i got sober 30 years ago. so i've always been interested in the story of recovery. i read books, you know, the histories of alcoholics anonymous, but i i decided i really wanted to go all the way back to the beginning of american history and see what i could find out. and what i found out is that it is a fascinating story, and it starts very early in our history. but it's not just, it's not just a story that affects my family, you know? in fact, there are millions of people who are alive today. the estimates are between 25 and

40 million people are in recovery in the united states. and so i wanted to tell a story that was meaningful for them as well as, you know, me and my descendants. recovery in america really begins with the indians. the first recovery movements are efforts by native americans to deal with the terrible consequences of the alcohol that they were given by white settlers and trappers. and it, they recognized early on that this was destroying them as surely as their displacement in in -- and other negative consequences of white settlement. but there's one indian in particular who particularly stands out, and that's a man named handsome lake. handsome lake was a seneca

indian who in 1799 had his last great binge. and i wanted to read to you a little about that binge because it sets up the rest of his story. in the spring of 1799, handsome lake, a native american, joined members of his hunting party in making the long journey from pittsburgh to their home near the border of new york. handsome lake was a member of the seneca nation, one of six nations in the iroquois confederacy. he had been renowned for his fighting skulker but the -- skill, but ther quo -- the iroquois had been stripped of almost all of their land. he was a shadow of what he had been. he would later say that heavy drinking had reduced him to but yellow skin and dried bones. after stopping in pittsburgh to trade furs for several barrels

of whiskey, the hunters lashed their canoes together and began to paddle up the allegheny river. some of the party or drank whiskey, yelling and singing like deemptied people -- demented people. they picked up their wives and children who had accompanied them on the hunting trip and were waiting at a rendezvous. everyone looked forward to being home in corn planters town named for its seneca leader. the joy did not last long. there was enough whiskey to keep the men drunk for several weeks. handsome lake described the horror of that time. now that the party is home, the men revel in strong try and are very quarrelsome. because of this, the families become frightened and move away for safety. so from many places in the bushlands, campfires end up their smore. now the drunken men run through

the village, and there is no one there except the drunken men. now they are beast-like and run about without clothing, and all have weapons. now there are no doors in the houses for they have all been kicked in. so also there are no fires in the village and have not been for many days. now the dogs yelp and cry in all the houses, for they are hungry. for several weeks handsome lake lay in a bed in the home of his daughter and son-in-law recovering from his drinking binge and consumed by thoughts of death. handsome lake said now, as he lies in sickness, he meditates and longs that he might rise again and walk upon the earth. and then he thinks how evil and loathsome he is before the great ruler. he thinks how he is an evil ever since he had strength in this world and done evil ever since he had been able to work. now it comes to his mind that

perchance evil has arisen because of strong week. now he continually thinks of this every day and every hour, yet he continually thinks of this. then a time comes and he craves drink again. now two ways he thinks, what once he did and whether he will ever recover. it was in this severely depressed state that handsome lake experienced a spiritual vision. as he looked outside the door of his hut, he saw three handsomely dressed native american men who were messengers from the great creator. and the message they delivered to him was that the indians must stop drinking, that drinking was killing, killing native americans and that handsome lake had been chosen to lead a religious revival built on sobriety. he recovered, he began a long

journey, 15-year journey from village to village in western pennsylvania among seneca villages and otherrer quo, the other iroquois tribes, and gradually his message was received, and he significantly succeeded -- succeeded in significantly reducing the amount of drinking that there was in the nation. so significantly that often the whites, who had been very disdainful of the indians, recognized it. and it was perpetuated after his death. but he knew by the time he died in 1815 that he had accomplished his mission. so handsome lake was a pioneer of recovery. about the same time, a white recovery movement had also gotten underway. it didn't have an outstanding leader like him, but it was much bigger. it was a national movement, and

it revolved around persuading people to sign a pledge that they would not drink alcohol. and by the time, by the 1830s millions of people in america had signed this. and significantly reduced the incidence of alcoholism in the population. but this recovery movement had very little to do with alcoholics. the assumption was at that time that alcoholics were pretty much lost people, that alcoholism was incurable and that the best you could hope for was that the alcoholics would die off and that a new generation of sober people would not create any more alcohol you cans. alcoholics. there were some alcoholics who disagreed with that approach, and a group of them in baltimore founded a group called the washingtonian society which was dedicated to reaching out specifically to men who had a

problem with drinking. men and women but, obviously, many more men. and this movement would become the first national movement to help alcoholics. delegates from boston began to spread out around the country, and a major meeting was held -- one of the most important early meetings -- were held in new york. in 1841. the methodist church on green street in new york city was packed on the wintry evening of march 23rd, 1841. new yorkers had been hearing reports from baltimore that a group of drunks had gotten themselves sober and had launched a movement to save the lives of alcoholics. the reformed drunks were members

of the washington temperance society and called themselves washingtonians to identify their struggle against the slavery of alcohol with the nation's war of liberation from british despotism. there was some trepidation among the advocates about inviting even sober drunks to address one of their meetings. they feared that the tales of debauchery would offend the middle class audience. but the full pews of the church revealed the enormous curiosity to hear their stories. john h.w. hawkins, an unemployed hatter, was the first to speak. hawkins would become the washingtonians' greatest orator, but he had made his first speech only a few weeks earlier. at age of 43, he was not a young man, and his nose was too large for a handsome one. he had large, expressive eyes and dark, bushy eyebrows. as he spoke in the green street church, his audience was struck

by the simplicity and sincerity with which he told about his nearly miraculous recovery. they were also moved by his passionate commitment to saving the lives of alcoholics by getting them to sign a pledge not to drink alcoholic beverages. if there is a man on earth who deserves the sympathy of the world, it is the poor drunkard, hawkins said. he is poisoned, degraded, cast out, knows not -- and knows not what to do and must be helped or he is lost. i feel for drunkards. i want them to come and sign the pledge and be saved. suddenly, hawkins was interrupted by a voice from the gallery. can i be saved, a man asked? i am a poor drunkard. i would give the world if i was as you. yes, there is, my friend, hawkins replied. come down and sign the pledge, and you will be a man. come down, and i will meet you, and we will take you by the hand. a minister who was present later described the scene for william

george hawkins, john's son and biographer. there was silence as the manmade his way to the stairs and began to descend. your father sprang from the stand and met the poor man literally halfway, escorted him to the desk and guided his hand as he signed his name. then such a shout broke out from the friends of temperance as must have reached the angels above. more drunks now came forward, five or six others of this miserable class and some 30 or 40 others well known as hard drinkers and drunkards. the reverend john marsh reported. news of the between street meeting soon spread through the city. the washingtonians addressed immense meetings in the largest churches every night for the next two weeks. 3,000 heard them in city hall park, more than 2,500 signed the pledge. the victory was now gained, marsh said. the work of redemption among the poor drunkards had commenced.

men like hawkins took to the road and visited practically every community in the united states and spread the message of redemption for alcoholics. they convinced people to come to meetings where they heard other drunks like themselves talk about how they have been drunks, how they got sober and what their lives were like after they got sober. and these men in turn went out and got more men. and many of these were the most degraded people in the city. they were people in the streets, they were people sleeping in stables, and they were brought back to respectability by -- with the help of these washingtonians. the washingtonians made a remarkable impression on americans. they couldn't believe that these men, almost lazarus-like, were being lifted from their diseased state and returned to normalcy.

and it became a huge fad. thousands joined the washingtonians who weren't alcoholics at all, but wanted to support the work of the organization. and it seemed like the country was on the verge of a major breakthrough in how to treat alcoholics. the problem was it couldn't sustain its enthusiasm. the thousands who were members of the association who weren't alcoholics after a while got tired of listening to the alcoholics talk about their stories, and they left the organization. and the men who were left behind didn't have sufficient organization to be able to sustain their movement. but they had made a tremendous are impression on one group of people in particular, and that was doctors. doctors who, up til that point, had never thought to help alcoholics because they didn't think they could be helped now began to see that alcoholics

could be saved. and began to create institutions, inebriate homes, they were called, or inebriate asylums where these men sometimes came while still working in the city but came home to these awe sigh lumbars -- asylums to be around other alcoholics and to mountain their sobriety -- maintain their sobriety by living together. by the end of the 19th century, in fact, there was a tremendous, there had been a tremendous development of assistance for alcoholics. but that didn't last either. because something else had really grabbed the attention of the american people, and they -- and it seemed to provide a perfect answer to alcoholism, and that was prohibition. it seemed that if we could just ban alcohol, we could solve the problem with alcoholics because they couldn't get drunk anymore. it was so simple.

and it was so cheap. so at that point, there were some state institutions were being established. we could save some money, we could close those institutions, and the problem would disappear. finish of course, that's not what happened, although in the early years of prohibition there was a decline in alcoholism and a decline in deaths from alcohol. alcohol found its way back into american life, the alcoholics found the alcohol, and the problem just worsened, you know, year by year until by the time alcoholics anonymous is founded in 1935, it was a truly hopeless, hopeless prospect more alcoholics. today we've all -- those of us who are sober have been the beneficiary of a new wave of

reform that really began with aa but is now, you know, well established in medical institutions and private institutions. and we've made tremendous progress. for a long time into the late years of the 20th century, there was still an argument about whether alcoholism was a disease or not or whether it was really people just didn't have strong enough willpower to be able to resist is. we don't have that debate anymore today. it is widely accepted. nobody is particularly bother ored about the use of the word -- bothered about the use of the word "disease" anymore. call it a disease, call it an illness, call it a disposition, we do understand that alcoholics need help. and they are getting it. we know today something that was not, had been forgotten from the 19th century which is thatting

alcoholism can be -- that alcoholism can be treated, that people can live long and happy lives who are alcoholic, and that also is a lesson that was hard, was hard won. and finally today, there is a global community of people who are in recovery. as i said earlier, millions and millions of people in recovery who are ready to help others to achieve sobriety and to help themselves stay sober. so this is a story, this is a happy story, a story with a happy ending. there's still tremendous suffering from alcoholism. it's estimated that around 90,000 people a year die from alcoholism. another 60,000 die from drug overdoses. there's still terrible suffering particularly in light of the opioid epidemic. but so many have been saved, and

so much progress has been made, and i just wanted to finish by reading you the epilogue which is about my family. my father told me the same story many times when i was growing up. my grandfather mike sat him down at the kitchen table of their modest home in a hard-drinking steel town in western pennsylvania. i don't know how old my dad was at the time, maybe a navy recruit on leave during the last days of world war ii or a theater student attending college on the g.i. bill. he may even have been a disk jockey by then. mike was not much of a talkinger, but he was determined to make an impression on his son. his father was an alcoholic and died young leaving mike to raise two brothers and a sister. all three were heavy drinkers. so was mike. he put a bottle of kessler's

whiskey on the table, and he poured two large drinks. raising his glass, he looked my dad in the eye. you drink too much, he said. mike was right about my dad, and if he had lived long enough, he would have seen right through me. when he died, my father and i got drunk on shots and beers in a dark neighborhood beer around the corner from the funeral home. so my grandfather never knew that he had started something. my father continued to drink, often having his first martini of the day at 10 a.m. following his radio show. but he was haunted by what alcoholism had done to his family, and the stories he told me were warnings. i was completely -- i wasn't completely surprised when he finally quit drinking. that decision changed his life. he was not a bad man, but he had been a selfish one. then he joined alcoholics anonymous and started to repair the damage that he had done to his wife and children.

he tried to help others. he was like scrooge on christmas morning. in his own words, he took his head out of his ass. i watched his progress without with understanding it because i was struggling with my own alcoholism. then i quit drinking too. and it all began with a story. mike introduced my father to the family ghosts, and he passed them along to me. later i told our story so often that my sons begged for mercy. but stories can inspire as well as warn. from the time of handsome lake and the washingtonians, sober drunks have shared their stories with people like my dad and me. they have shown us that we are not alone and introduced us to a worldwide community of people who are living happily without drugs or alcohol. they have told us how their lives were saved. today we number in the millions, and our story grows louder with every retelling. thank you.

[applause] i'd be happy to answer any questions or hear any comments. sure. >> yeah, thank you so much -- [inaudible] from my reading of history, it seems that the tolerance of alcoholics' behavior has reduced dramatically over the last 150 years. i mean, for example, civil war generals who were widely rumored to be, to have been drunk during battles and whether true or not, today that would be investigated deeply. and back then it was sort of shrugged off. and other, you know, situations, i don't know from the '50s, would you say that the tolerance for alcohol behavior is reduced in correlation to the success of treatment or some other factor?

>> well, i -- yes, i think you're right. i think that a certain amount of drunkenness was part of the american way for a long time. i mean, in the early 18th century americans were drinking about five times what we drink today. and there was a lot of alcoholism, and it was just considered, you know, something that had to be lived with. but as i think we taliban -- we began to understand the damage that was done by alcoholism, there has been less tolerance for it, and the prohibition movement could be quite intolerant toward alcoholics. they wanted, you know, they really believed alcoholics were a stain on the, you know, the virtue of the country and that the country would be a lot better off without all the speakeasies and dive bars. and i think that's a good thing. i think it's good that we have

an a awareness today that -- an awareness today that people can do something about their problem, and there's an expectation they will do something about it. so i think that's definitely progress. >> what do you think about -- [inaudible] researching genetic -- [inaudible] that might have had a moral judgment flyer so if we have data now -- [inaudible] do you believe in -- [inaudible] >> i think that's a big, that's helped -- the knowledge about genetics and the genetic link to alcoholism president bush establishes that -- pretty much establishes that, you know, the

biological basis for the illness and has helped to destigmatize it. you know, i think there's no question, for example, that my family's got it, you know? and there are lots of families, you know, like me. i know a lot of second generation sober people whose, you know, whose fathers were alcoholics and, you know, who are in recovery themselves. it is a family disease. it's not the only cause of alcoholism. you can drink yourself into alcoholism too. but even then there is a biology of addition that works the -- addiction that works the same in both cases. there is, there's a strong biological basis, there's a strong social basis too. it's a very, you know, it's a mixture of causes contribute to the problem.

>> i want to follow up -- [inaudible] alcoholic family also, and i made the decision never to drink because i watched -- i didn't even need science, i just saw. but then i realized through life that there is this -- i never took painkillers after surgery. i realize that, you know, it's not that simple. and what do you think of the disability status of drug addiction and maybe alcohol? do you think that there's a path -- is it a disabling sickness in your mind? is it something the government should intervene in. >> well, the government has intervened, you know, very actively. it was very late. the government wasn't funding alcoholism treatment until the late 1960s. but that, you know, but it did recognize it at that point. and i think that is one to have major markers of the progress we've made, is that society has accepted its responsibility to

help people who are sick. and it's recognized that in the past with regard to all kinds of diseases, but now it also recognizes it for what, you know, used to be considered a moral failing. and that's, that's tremendously important. >> [inaudible] alanon -- [inaudible] >> yeah, alanon was an outgrowth of, was started by women whose husbands were in alcoholics anonymous, and i think it was in the 1950s. so it was considerably later, but it also has become a national movement, and there are millions of people, you know, in alanon.

>> -- about the 12-step program, many activists i know, which i don't agree with, but they complain that the idea of surrendering to a higher power surrenders your political agency and that these kinds of notions are not for everybody. i mean, that seems to be -- how do you feel about that? >> well, the other, you know, another very encouraging development is that i think there's widespread recognition by people in aa and outside that there are all different paths to recovery. and, or you know, where in the beginning of the history of aa it seemed to be the only way, i think it's lots of other groups started and support or sobriety, and that's, that's good because people are very different, and they need different kinds of things. but i think what they all have in common is an understanding

that it's important for people who have a chronic illness -- because alcoholism isn't going to be resolved like other illnesses, you know, like -- that respect chronic. that they need support. and they need to be able to talk to people who think like they to and have the same problem that they do. so it's, recovery is much broader today than it was even, you know, 50 years ago, 40 years ago. >> was widespread drinking common in the -- >> oh, my goodness, yes. >> were people considered to be alcoholics? >> no. you know, this is part of the change. in the beginning, there was a belief that alcohol was a good thing, you know, and that there was no downside to alcohol. and the colonists drank all

through the day. that's, you know, that's partly why there was so much drinking, you know, at the urn turn of the 18th -- the 19th century. they drank in the mornings, they drank when they worked, they drank at noon, and a lot of those people, most of those people didn't become alcoholics, they just, they became habituated to it. and, but it also a had to do with, you know, liquor became a lot stronger toward the end of the 18th century and became a lot cheaper. and, you know, and distilled spirits began to, you know, really make their appearance on the scene, and that took a lot of people intoing alcoholism -- into alcoholism much quicker than before. it was a problem. the temperance movement was a response to a problem of rising alcoholism. >> [inaudible] >> well, they had a lot of -- yeah, there was a lot of drinking in europe too.

they thought it helped with the cold, you know? they weren't the warmest people in the world. [laughter] they thought it eased the pain of heavy physical labor. whether it did or not, it made them feel better. you know, it seemed to answer a lot of, a lot of needs for a society that was still, you know, pretty primitive. and, but, you know, there was, there was alcoholism there too, it just is was considered, you know, aberrant, not a threat to the social order that it became. >> [inaudible] >> well, that's true. >> i wonder if you could comment on, you know, the fact that prohibition was pretty much a dismal failure, you know? and yet we still have in this

day and age the war on drugs. the last time i checked, alcohol is a drug, you know? stiffer penalties, you know, attempts by the government to regulate or control by punishment and longer prison termsing things of that nature. -- terms of that nature. what's your opinion in that respect? >> well, prohibition, prohibition was a disaster for alcoholics. it was -- actually, you know, many alcohol youics looked forwd to prohibition. they kind of believed what everybody was saying, that once alcohol was gone, they couldn't try, and they would be cured. but the lesson of prohibition was that you can't deal with truck abuse. it's really interdiction, you know? you have to deal -- you have to be able to offer people an alternative, and you have to be able to support their recovery.

and i think that's still true today. you know, people who are ill, you know, have to have is help in getting well. and they don't get it in prison. and we've made terrible mistakes and sent many, many addicts to prison who shouldn't have been there. we go through, it seems like we go through cycles where for a period, you know, we try, you know, we try to help people, and then we get scared, you know? we're scared of the drugs, we're scared of the consequences of the drugs and the crime that come with the drugs, and then we crack down. and then we realize we've made a mistake, and then there's a period -- i just hope we don't go through that cycle again. i think we, at this time in history i think there's widespread recognition that we made a terrible mistake during the war on drugs and treating,

in treating addicts the way we did. >> any other questions? okay, let's give him a round of applause. [applause] >> sure. >> i just want to thank you all so much for coming out and joining us and supporting your local bookstore. it means a lot, so thank you for keeping vroman's in business. let's give chris another round of applause. [applause] if you'd like to get your book signed, now is the signing portion of the event, so come on up, we'll get a line going over here. we do ask that you purchase your book before you get them signed, and you can find them here or downstairs to the right of the staircase, there's a cartful of books as well. thank you so much, enjoy the rest of your saturday. [applause] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] >> you're watching booktv on crushes span 2 with -- on c-span2 with top upon nonfiction books and authors every weekend. booktv, television for serious readers. >> and this weekend on "after words," tara westover describes her life as the daughter of

survivalists in the idaho mountains and her introduction to formal education at the age of 17. also this weekend fox news media buzz host howard kurtz discusses the relationship between the media and the trump administration. bloomberg technology's emily chang describes the culture this silicon valley for women. white house reporter paul bran december offers a history of the presidency. and the penn american literary awards given annually since 1963 recognizes books in a range of categories from biography and science writing to essays and poetry. that's all this weekend on c-span2's booktv, 48 hours of nonfiction authors ask books, television for serious readers. for a complete schedule, visit booktv.org and follow along on our social media accounts. we're on facebook, twitter and instagram @booktv. >> my favorite researcher and my

son would tell you that just shows what a dork i am because i have a favorite researcher -- [laughter] is a guy named nicholas epley. and he has been researching these intangibles of human nature for years. just is recently, a few months ago, he did this very long study -- not just nicholas, but a whole crew of people. when we read an opinion we disagree with in any form, doesn't matter if it's in a newspaper, a book, an e-mail, facebook, if we read it, we are much more likely to think we disagreed because that person's stupid and ignorant of the real issues. if we hear someone telling us the same opinion whether it's recorded, in a podcast, doesn't matter. if we hear their voice telling us that opinion, we are much more likely to think they disagree with us because they have a different experience and

perspective. and what that mean is the that the human voice is literally humanizing. it is the voice itself, some quality of the human voice that helps us to recognize each other as human beings. deserving of respect. and we do deserve respect. every person deserves respect. not every opinion, but every person. and it also means that this process that we're going through right now of transferring all of our communication to the digital world is dehumanizing us. of course we hate each other. we don't see each other as human beings deserving of respect. and this is not a partisan issue. if you're thinking, yeah, absolutely, those liberals, they're always jerks, or the other way, it doesn't matter what you're thinking, it's not

partisan. every single person is equally prone to do this to the other side. every person is equally prone to confirmation bias. do you guys know what confirmation bias is? it's where you believe something, and then someone gives you evidence proving that belief is wrong, and it makes you believe it harder. we are the only species that suffers from confirmation bias. and that is because confirmation bias is not helpful. well, it's not really helpful. if you have a cat and the cat truly believes there's no cats in the next room, i mean, a mouse, sorry. if you have a mouse and the mouse totally believes there's no cat in the next room and you show them evidence of cats, lots of cats, and that makes them believe harder there are no cats in the next room, mice would

basically be wiped off the face of the planet. [laughter] so you have to ask yourself why do we have confirmation bias? why do all of us have confirmation bias? and how does it help us? because, frankly, why would it survive through all those millennia of evolution if it did not in some way help? and i'll tell you what i believe even though we fully don't understand it yet. i think confirmation bias is actually a strength. i think what it does is prove to us constantly that we need each other. that we need to talk to each other. because we are our own checks and balances. i need you guys to tell me when i've said something nutballs. and i need to believe you. we need each other, all of us.

there is no virtue in saying i don't talk to people like that. it's not a virtue. i don't care how vile you think their opinion is, that's not something to brag about. you can talk to everybody. and i'll just give you two examples. one of them is georgia's own. does anyone know who -- [inaudible] clayton is? one person. there's a street named after her in atlanta. she was a good friend of the kings, dr. king and his wife coretta. she, when they decided to create the great neighborhoods initiative, great society initiative to strengthen neighborhoods here in atlanta, she was appointed as the head of that program. and she had a whole bunch of different neighborhood captains. and the mayor came to her and said, listen, i have to warn you -- because she was an african-american -- still is an african-american woman. [laughter] that hasn't changed.

he said i have to warn you that one of your neighborhood captains is a grand dragon in the kkk. just so you know. and she describes that very first meeting where all the captains came in, and one of them refused to touch her or shake her hand, and she goes, oh, that's the one. laugh so he would come in from time to time and sit in her office downtown, and she would talk to him. about whatever. and she says dr. king told her, you don't try to change hearts. leave that to god. you have no control over whether a heart is changed. you don't have that power. but you can be a human being and respectful. and so that's what she did. and they would talk to each other -- he ended up coming sometimes two or three times a week and just sat down, and at one point she asked him why do you keep coming here? you don't even like me. and he says, i know, but i like to talk to you. [laughter] >> you can watch this and other

programs online at booktv.org. >> reverend billy graham died wednesday at the age of 99. the christian advantage list served as -- evangelist served as a counselor to every president from harry truman to george w. bush. now on booktv from a 2007 "after words" interview, michael duffy explores the relationships between reverend graham and the presidents he counseled. the co-author of "the preacher and the presidents: bullly graham and the -- billy graham and the white house," also shares anecdotes from his interviews with some of those presidents. >> host: hello and welcome to "after words". i'm your host today, bob deans, and our guest is michael duffy, co-author of the new book "the preacher and the presidents." it's a book about billy graham and his unique relationship with 11 presidents. billy graham has spoken face to face to more people than anyone