public service by america's cable television companies. and today we continue to bring you unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court and public policy events in washington, d.c. and around the country. c-span is brought to you by your cable or satellite provider. >> wednesday morning we're live in santa fe, new mexico, for the next stop on the c-span bus 50 capitols tour. former new mexico governor bill richardson and house speaker brian egolf will be our guests during washington journal starting at 9:15 eastern. >> next, former representatives russ carnahan and donald manzullo, from the national archives in washington, this is an hour and a half.

>> good evening. welcome to the william g. mcgowan theater here at the national archives. i'm the archivist of the united states, and it's a pleasure to welcome you here this evening whether you're here in person, joining us on our youtube station or a special welcome to our friends at c-span. we present tonight's program, meet the better half: congressional partners, spouses and families, in partnership with the u.s. association of former members of congress, and we thank them for their support. where are you? we've been doing this for six years now. great to have you with us. look forward to six more. before we get started, i'd like to tell you about two other programs coming up next month. oh, actually, this month. on tuesday, february 6th at noon, katherine kerryson will be here to talk about jefferson's daughters: three sisters, white

and black, which look into the lives of martha and harriet. and friday february 16th at noon, derek ash and george musgrove will be here to tell us about their book, chocolate city: a history of race and democracy in the nation's capital. to learn more about these, consult our monthly calendar of events at archives.gov, and you can also sign up at the table outside to receive it by e-mail. another way to governor more involved with the national archives is to become a member of the national archives foundation. the foundation supports the work of the agency, especially our education and outreach activities and there are applications for membership in the lobby. and a little known secret that i keep telling everyone, no one has ever been turned down for membership in the national archives foundation. the national archives center for legislative archives preserves

the historical records of the u.s. house of representatives and the u.s. senate. but even those voluminous records can't tell the full story of congress' operations. we can't overlook the importance of person-to-person relationships not only between members, but also welcome back members' families -- within members' families. family members give tremendous support to those in public service. back in the revolutionary era, john and abigail adams shared their thoughts and advice many score cans of letters now preserved by the adams papers and available to all in founders online, two projects supported by the national archives. we see it in mutual love and concern for family as well as devotion to the ideals of a struggling new nation. for example, in february 1776 john wrote: i sent you from new york a pamphlet, common sense, and i shall endeavor to enclose to you as many of the papers and pamphlets as i can as long as i stay here. and abigail responded: i am

charmed with the sentiments of "common sense." i want to know how these sentiments are received in congress. i dare say there would be no difficulty in procuring a vote and instructions from all the assemblies in new england for independency. since the adams' time, the days or weeks between letters has been reduced to instantaneous correspondence. let's now hear from our panelists about the essential role of family support in carrying out public duties. to introduce our panel, i welcome to the stage christy anne english, currently the president of the former members of congress auxiliary and a past president of the republican congressional spouses. she is the spouse of phil english who served in congress for 14 years from 1994-2008 representing the third district of pennsylvania. chris spent the first seven years of phil's congressional term living and working in their district in their hometown of erie, pennsylvania. retiring from her career in

education after 30 years, she spent the next seven years traveling to and from the congressional district to washington with her husband. finish -- she graduated from lake erie college with a degree in french and received her master's in english and taught high school french and english in the school district for 15 years and then was coordinator of the high school gifted program for 15 years. ladies and gentlemen, please welcome christy anne english. [applause] >> thank you, david. that was a great introduction. and for the many years of partnership involving the national archives and the former members of congress. first off, a quick word about the association. the former members of congress and the organization that i represent as president of the former members of congress auxiliary. the auxiliary consists of spouses of former members.

under the fmc umbrella, we bring together a bipartisan group of over 600 congressmen and senators who work together on a wide variety of projects. fmc tries to strengthen the work of the current congress by promoting a deeper understanding of our democracy and encouraging public service. if you'd like to find out more about our projects and collaborations, please visit our web site. tonight's panel is an example of fmc's work to engage the public in a conversation about issues that affect our nation and our democracy. in the partisan era where tweets and sound bites drive news cycles and politics is seen as an unkind profession for the power-hungry, it's important to step back and remember that our elected officials can -- and their family members make selfless and grounded decisions to enter the public eye and dedicate time for serving in public office. here to moderate our discussion

tonight is dr. lara brown. dr. brown serves as a board adviser and director of the graduate school of political management at george washington university. she's a distinguished writer, dedicatedded scholar and acclaimed expert on politics. we also have two congressional couples, congressman don manzullo and his wife frieda, and russ carnahan and his wife, judge deborah carnahan. and they will be joining us tonight. i know both of the couples and attest that they are wonderful people and that you're going to have a very interesting evening. welcome. [applause]

>> so let me say thank you. thank you to our wonderful national archives, thank you to the former members of congress, thank you to our former members who are here with us and their spouses, and thank you to the audience for being here tonight. i'm very excited about this conversation. i think we're going to get to share a little bit about something that i believe is really important which is that politics is about people. and there are people who are doing extraordinary public service, committing time and family and energy to this life of politics and public service. so i think we have a a lot to learn from these families who are with us. so thank you so much again for being here. so i want to share with you

who's here on the stage with me, because it's very exciting. we have former member of the house russ carnahan, who's a democrat from missouri. he served in the house of representatives for eight years from 2005-2013. next to him is his wife, deborah carnahan, who is also an attorney and a retired judge and founding partner of the carnahan and carnahan law firm and a former assistant u.s. attorney and prosecutor. next to her we have freda manzullo who is the wife of representative don manzullo. i'm going to do this a little bit out of order. so freda is a graduate of hoch college. she was in michigan and earned her bachelor's in biology and is a graduate of the swedish-american hospital school of medical technology. so very interesting background. and she worked as a medical

technologist for several years. don manzullo, representative from illinois, republican, served in congress, let's see -- oh, i apologize, it's not on your bio. i did think it was here. how long did you serve? >> twenty years. >> twenty years. so worked with john b. anderson, a former member of congress who also ran -- >> i worked for him. >> right. that's what i said. [laughter] worked for him. and he ran for president. >> he did, 1980. >> in 1980 as an independent. and you served from illinois as a republican for 20 years. so what, what we have is a wonderful collection of individuals who have given time, energy, heart to being many --

in congress, serving constituents, being with their political parties. but what we're going to talk about tonight and what i'm hopeful that everyone will sort of reflect on and share with our audience is that running for office is often thought to be something of a family experience. it takes a lot of work to actually run a campaign, takes a lot of work to get elected, and then it takes a lot of work to serve in office. and so what i'm interested in is how did this commitment begin? what were some of the first conversations you had with each other about do i get in, what's the district that i run for, should i run for a lower office? how did you decide that congress was it and that you wanted to make part of your life be a part of time in washington? so with that, i think maybe

freda, that would be nice if you would -- [laughter] >> when we were dating, lynn martin was our representative in the part of illinois that we live in. and don was honest enough to say to me he was practicing law in a small town, oregon, illinois, but he said i've always dreamed of being a member of congress. so i have to be honest and say that if lynn martin decides not to run, i would like to run for that seat. but i thought, oh, lynn's going to stay there forever. [laughter] i thought this was a pretty safe bet. [laughter] but then she was encouraged to run for senate which left the seat as an open seat, and don said to me i don't run now, when somebody runs they often will stay in for -- >> 20 years. [laughter] >> so he felt like this was his opportunity.

and our children were 1, 3 and 5 at the time, so i wasn't particularly excited about getting involved with our kids being so young. but then i thought this is his childhood dream, how can you as a wife say you don't want your husband to fulfill his childhood dream. so i, i went along with it. >> and the rest is history, right? [laughter] >> but actually don had never run for political office before -- >> well, i -- >> oh, he had run for the school board. >> i had run for the school board in illinois at the time that i was defending the most notorious murderer in that county. it was court appointment, it was just bad timing. [laughter] >> yeah, so -- >> and, deborah, you want to --

>> oh, i think i knew that russ was going to run for political office from the moment he cut in on his best friend who was dancing with me. [laughter] at a young democrats event that we were both at in kansas city. and said hello. [laughter] you know, as my father-in-law used to say, it's a genetic defect in this family. [laughter] but, yeah, i was president of my college young democrats in columbia, missouri, at columbia college, and russ was statewide president of young democrats, and he was in law school at the time at the university of missouri. so we kind of connected through politics. but, you know, sometimes it still throws you a little bit because to say, yeah, we're interested in politics, you come from a political family, and and i'd already been involved in political campaigns, i'd already

done an internship here on capitol hill, it's still a decision that really takes a lot of soul searching before you actually say, yes, i'm going to commit to the time and the energy and then kind of uh-huh, and if we win. then what, right? no one wants to lose, but it's a very difficult decision to make, because what if you do win? so i think one of the last times you were state rep, i was up in illinois, in lincoln, illinois, at my girlfriend's bridal shower, and i get this call from was. and he said i -- from russ. he said i need to talk to you. i just heard dick gephardt's retiring after 30 years in office, and we had just been redistricted into his district by one block. we didn't move to this area, you know? we didn't move to this street or our neighborhood for this. and i said, oh, my gosh, can you just give me 24 hours to get home? let me finish this. and, of course, my best friend

and her mom are listening, like what's he doing now? [laughter] and he goes, no, i really can't, you know? i said, what's 24 hours? he goes, because people are going to jump into this. this seat's been held a long time by a very prestigious politician, and he goes i need to start making calls tonight. so i said, okay, you know? let's go for it. and it's, you know, that's just kind of how you roll sometimes. >> yeah. i think that's right. so let me ask sort of the opposite question. representative manzullo, how did you feel when you were running and you were on the campaign? is -- what ways did you see freda was most helpful and most supportive aside from being this amazing spouse who said i'm not letting you not have your childhood dream, right? >> well, i came home from the law office -- this is a town of

3500, county of 30,000 and our farm, we were raising beef cattle. we got married, she thought i was a safe bet, this guy's going nowhere. [laughter] >> oh, i -- >> and i bought these three books on how to run for congress. okay. and she said what's the first book say? it says have a hundred of your friends each give you $1,000. [laughter] silence. she said, well, what's the second book -- [laughter] what's your vision, why do you want to run? and freda was, i mean, the first campaign we didn't, i had no idea what i was doing. it was, i ran a bad campaign, but i 47% of the vote which was extraordinary.

the man who beat me in the primary went on to lose to the first democrat to hold the seat in 100 years. and where freda really, she really showed extraordinary support because i had to make up my mind whether or not to run in that second primary in 1992. i said, freda, just tell me not to run. you know? i got it out of my system, and she said i'm not going to stand between you and your boyhood dream. when i was 4, i dreamt i wanted to be a lawyer, when i was 10, i decided i was going to be a member of congress. so freda did an extraordinary lift taking care of those kids, i was traveling throughout that entire congressional district. >> were you driving around the district? >> oh, yeah. we didn't have a chauffer like every congressman does today, you know? [laughter] >> i've always believed driving the district is the best way to see it. >> well, when it's -- one time

it was midnight, we were coming back from about an hour and a half away, to keep awake, we were trying to remember the names of the state capitals. >> only things people in politics do, right? [laughter] >> it does become a family affair because i know that when, you know, it's like when we first started, don wanted to do this, but we printed off all this literature at his law office, and then we put it in this little wagon and went to a festival with our kids, but then he kind of clammed up when we -- >> i froze. >> he said i just don't know that i can walk up to people and start introducing myself and tell them what i'm doing. but our son who was 5 -- no, this was the first time. he was 5. he thought it was kind of fun because he was a 5-year-old. he was fearless. so he just began saying this is my dad, and he's running for congress. [laughter]

>> it is true, i mean, there are some really interesting stories about how fundraising actually came about. a lot of it came historically from the spouses, from the wives who were willing to basically say my husband is running for congress, would you be willing to support his campaign. and so much of that sort of began in these family traditions. so i'm curious, representative carnahan, what about you? how did you deploy your already campaign-savvy wife on the trail? >> well, before i met debra, i grew up in a family that was very political anded had always been involved in my dad's campaigns. when i was 8 years old, he was running for the legislature. i remember going on this caravan for carnahan, and they had a flatbed truck with loud speakers, and it went from town to town on weekends.

i thought that was kind of -- so that was my first exposure to politics. but then i'd been a schedule canner in dad's campaigns -- scheduler in dad's campaigns and driver, so i had that introduction. i didn't really think i was necessarily going to run for office myself. [laughter] in fact, when the longtime state house seat came open in 2000, i was trying to talk debra into running and told her i would be her campaign manager. but she declined, and eventually i ran, but that's really how -- and we had practiced law together, we had worked in campaigns together, and so we had a good understanding and, you know, she was always my sounding board for ideas, for people, you know? because you're approached by so many people and consultants and competing pressures and decisions, and i always knew that i was going to get the

straight information from from debra. i might not like it sometimes -- [laughter] but, you know, that was really so important to me throughout the work that i did. >> that's fantastic. so moving on now, you win. now what? to you move to washington? -- do you move to washington? do you keep a house at home? do you stay at home? do you keep the children there? do you bring them to washington? these are really -- >> you afford washington? >> right. these are huge questions that i think every family confronts, because there is this moment where everyone says like in the movie "the candidate," what do we do now? [laughter] >> sometimes i look back at the picture of election night when don first won -- >> [inaudible] >> no, this was when he won the

general election. >> it was at the -- >> no, no -- [laughter] .. >> when you came for-- when we came for the orientation we only knew one other couple and it was because a friend of ours had moved from illinois to michigan between the primary election and the general election and they befriended peter hoekstra, who was running the same time. and peter had children pretty much the same age as our children and so we met peter and diane in michigan about a

month before orientation and, in fact, the rnc called our friends that night when we were having pizza at his house to ask for money for the party and he said you won't believe who is in my house tonight. [laughter] >> i have two newly elected members of congress sitting right here. so, we thought, oh, poor carl, he did not know that being friends with us he was going to get called for the rest of his life from the republican party. >> we-- we were home schooling the kids freda was because it was easier and a big shout out to archives library of congress, our kids had an extraordinary opportuni opportunity to see the actual documents. i remember one time we were at

library of congress and one of the-- one of the drirectors reached up and pulled down george washington's primer and he handed it to the children. i mean, and i could barely-- i could barely-- because the archives, we spent a lot of time in the stacks here and the library of congress, our kids got the most extraordinary education, i think, that anybody in the world could ever get, just seeing and often times feeling the documents. in fact, the day i was sworn in, january 3rd of 1993, we came here, they opened, let us in. >> the emancipation proclamation. because we were from lincoln

and-- >> illinois. >> we call it lincoln. so we came to see that and later on when the newspaper interviewed don, they asked him what was the most important thing that happened during your swearing in day and he said that it was going to see the emancipation proclamation, that you stood there and you saw the signature and you thought, how much he sacrificed just to do the right thing, and you just hoped that you would have the courage to do the right thing for your district. >> a great story. thank you for sharing that. >> it's a really tough decision. i was born and raised in alexandria, virginia. i was fifth generation, and so, all of my family was here. i got to missouri because i wanted to be a journalist and

that's another whole story. and i ended up going to law school, but that's what took me out to columbia, missouri, but our children were in the place in school where they're like, mom, i do not want to move to washington, and so i negotiated that one child would leave his school and-- my eldest had it the hardest, he had to leave his junior year of high school and that's really tough and then we moved to alexandria after the first two years, and they got to graduate from my high school, and so that was-- i kind of liked that, too, soap of my children's world had been in missouri which was my new home, but they hadn't spent a lot of time out here. so i really saw that as a positive thing for us and to be around cousins and aunts and uncles and grandparents and history. it was difficult because, if

you live in the district, very expensive private schools. you live in alexandria, or fairfax county, very expensive homes. and so, you know, we were paying two mortgages, so it seems like we were always broke. [laughter] >> because paying two mortgages, right and my kids were like why don't we have any money? we have two houses. so, it was hard on me because i want to come to washington right away and be here and hit upset up the offices and helping to determine, you know, the hiring, and we were doing all that together. i came out about once a month, i think. and then i was also still on the bench so i'd have to leave my bench and sometimes when the boys were moved here, i still stayed on the bench for a while. and we were at the airport, hi,

babe, bye, babe. he was going back to the district and occasionally we were hearing and taking meetings together and i eventually retired my judgeship and was here more often, but they're very difficult decisions and you are asking a lot of your children. my youngest son, he'll probably just hate this, but andrew was going to the school his grandparents went to, and gre great-grandparents and mom, i feel like i'm at camp. and they didn't get to go home and see their friends. russ was going home every weekend and i was going, and it was rough on them for a while. >> it was a great example how

deeply personal it is in temps of where your kids are and what your spouse's profession is and how you juggle that, but then to make it even more complicated you know, you have the political pressures of staff, worried, oh, if debra moves the kids to washington are they going to think-- have you gone washington. >> have you gone washington. you're not going to be in the district anymore. so you're balancing all of this stuff. at the end of the day, you've got to do what works for your partner and your kids and your family and you figure it out. there's no one model that works and you have to figure out what works. >> yeah, and i think, too, the reason that really propelled us besides my desire to be here with him more often and the decision making and policy making here was that i saw when he came home on thursdays, he instantly started working.

and it was friday, and worked saturday and sunday and monday you turn around and you go back for votes. well, maybe you can make a ball game with the kids or this. people just want to talk to you when you're out. you know, your kids are standing there going, dad. you know, people want to talk to the member and there really wasn't a whole lot of quality time he was working. when they were here, he could maybe get home by 7:00, 7:30 and catch the end of austin's hockey game or part of andrew's baseball game or attend something at school. so i really found that was the best way to get more quality family life. >> agree with that. >> and you have to make a decision. when you got married, freda was 25, i was 38 and i made a decision then that our family would come first. so we moved the family out here, people felt we had four kids and i said, no one is my

wife here. and then i'd go home every other weekend and i can't remember of anybody who ever complained to my district director, when she said the congressman is not coming home this weekend because this is his weekend with his kids. and because we home schooled the kids they got to go on a later clock so when i would get back to the office they were still up. and they would sleep in. in the morning, and i spent more time with my kids as a member of congress than most guys who work 9:00 to 5:00 and never travel because that was a priority. if i could not govern my family, i was not capable of helping to govern a nation and so they came first. it was a very having story and one in political science about how former representative rahm emanuel had a former

representative to office where he was nervous jumping in and he said i don't think i'm ever going to see my children and supposedly over the course of about a week every single minute that rahm was with his children he called heat, i'm with my kid at the baseball game. and hang up. i'm with my kid in school. hang up and supposedly he did this over the course of an entire week to recruit him and say you're not going to lose touch. it is hard and there is-- >> you have to make a decision, i did not run for leadership positions and did not go into the rules positions and i did not take a lot because kids are number one and they grow up and other members could go and that would be fine, but the kids remembered when i was there and that's all that they care about. >> and i think it's an interesting issue about the

constituents want you there, but then they say they want you to be compromising and doing legislation here-- >> we did get-- when you-- newt poisoned the well when he said if you move to washington, you ought to be in everything and that's what started this that was going on in 1994 we wept to washington and approval rating went down and down. the city is broken and stinks and why would you want to run to work in a place that stinks? >> certainly more conversation that was able to be had i think when families were here all the time. i think that is one of the difficult parts now, you know, it's because it is true, you know, children would go to school together and then everyone would see each other at the games and across the

aisle you could have some conversations that were social, not just political. so i guess out of this, what would you tell a brand new member of congress at the moment? a newly elected freshman, they come to you and they say, what do i do about all of these things. >> well, what do we tell the member or the spouse? >> both, probably? >> and also, a lot of people don't know, there is like a -- it's great, it's called the big sister program, and probably changed that since we have. spouses that are also men, but-- yes, where you actually volunteer, like i volunteered to take in the spouse whose coming in and talk with them and partner up with them and let them know about the different events and that and that, and things to look for, how to push back on staff. [laughter] >> so, you know, things like

that. and i think i would tell them to figure out for themselves how involved that they want to be themselves. number one. because everybody is individual, you know? don't feel bad if somebody else is doing more or whatever. number two, to the member, and the spouse, i would say it's very important to figure out ahead of time with staff what your parameters are, what the involvement in. and never have a scheduling meeting without me there i'm tired of-- and please don't make a decision because a lot of times you have to be a leader to your staff to let them know as the congressman just said what's important to you, what are your parameters because they'll work you, 24/7, right? i mean, they just will. i used to call russ the football, passing from d.c., the district office, and the district offers throws him

back, they've got to pass. so, you really have to work on that and i think it's important. it really needs to come from the member and the spouse, to the staff, to communicate it. >> i often tell people that the number one person that you need to get to know on your husband's staff is the scheduler and the scheduler has to be somebody that you feel comfortable talking to because you have to be able to say, these are the things that are happening in our family, that are untouchable events and it's disappointing that maybe your husband's going to miss out on some opportunity, but there will be other opportunities and it's more important that he actually gets to the family events than important to your family. >> so setting priorities, really. >> and everybody's going to be different, right?

look how many members of congress there are, and we're different in viewpoints and our backgrounds, or how we have our families or how we're set up and very individualistic. there's no cookie cutter formula. >> and geographies. somebody like then senator biden. he could just hop on amtrak and it was so close and easy to make that commute to the district. and you've raised an interesting point, that is you have an unprecedented number of women who are saying that they want to get into this game and run for office. so what does that mean for spouses in washington when we probably will start seeing some more men in this role of spouse? >> well, let me just say as a former spouse, i don't want to say a former woman spouse. [laughter] >> but, former spouse, let me

get that straight. [laughter] >> and i had someone walk up to me once and say are you an ex-spouse. >> not that i-- . [laughter] >> but we love the male spouses, they're great. bob pelosi,'s like head spouse in the democrat circles and they come to events and it was just great and it's-- as more and more come it's wonderful, it really is. and they often say that the women members of congress were wonderful, i mean, i became friends, with so many people and men, too, congressional, but the female members were fantastic. give you a lot of recognition, a lot of respect, a lot of understanding and you're not just not seen kind of over to

the side. you know, so, that was really wonderful. and they usually make a big point of recognizing spouses and talking about the contribution of spouses at events and that, that really is important. >> sure. any thoughts about how you-- >> when someone comes to me and says i'm thinking about running for congress, the first question is where is your wife on this? i guess, i couldn't say where is your husband on it, but where is your wife. if there's any hesitancy, say, you can't do this. remember, franklin pierce's wife didn't even know he was elected president until he was actually elected and she was very upset and said it was horrible the family was on their way from new hampshire to washington and the train overturned and the only

casualty was a ten-year-old who was killed, their only child. and it was just-- she did not her husband was running for president. it's unbelievable. >> yeah, and how you're-- you know, your spouse can make or break you, you know? and a marriage is hard enough as it is, right, without being in a political life and running around and living in two different places and back and forth. so, it is quite challenging and it does help to be on the same page, especially if you care about keeping your family together. right? it's a very important role and you know, if mama's not happy, nobody's happy. at least in my family. [laughter] >> i would add to that, the-- there are some special, some very special events and opportunities, things you can do and really making a point to

do those together, and you know, bring in your kids to those special events, those are just phenomenal in many, just great honor to be able to participate in those things and for the spouses, whether it's a woman or a man, in addition to being, getting to know the scheduler, identifying those staff members that are involved in issues you care about. if it's health care, or you know, education, or you know, whatever the issue is, so you can be involved in those issues and events that have to do with that so there are some great opportunities, i think, for spouses to do that and then for the member, you know, my advice would be, to be sure that-- speaking of rahm emanuel, at our freshman orientation, he said this is the most bipartisan thing you'll do in congress, there were democrats and republicans together in

orientation and after that your party is going to divide you and pit you against each other and you'll have to make, you know, a special effort to find those friendships and relationships and to me, you know, whether you're in the minority or the majority in congress, having those relationships on the other side is really, really important because there's always going to be something where you're going to have to go to somebody on the other side to try to get something done or build a coalition and that's where you've got to take special initiative. >> rahm, he's been a friend of ours for years and we were talking to him right after we got to washington at orientation and rahm is like, you know, what i do with family, i tell them. i get one day, here is rahm doing leadership and moving on and a busy guy i tell them i get one day on the weekend. if you decide to schedule me for something on sunday, do not expect to see me on saturday. and you know, vice versa.

and you really have to guard that because what happens is, and i tried that, didn't work all that well. [laughter] >> you know, because what happens is, you'll hear, oh, it's just one event, but it's an hour getting ready for an event, it's driving to the event, it's at least an hour event. never a half hour, never happens and coming back and decompressing, changing, so, really, you know, the staff will want to say, oh debra, i know you cleared saturday for him and you guys to do this, but it's just one little event and i'm like don't even try it with me, you know? this is four hours here. but you know, that's-- and that's constant. no one's ever going to fix that, that's just the nature of the beast. >> i know, i think that's right. >> any other thoughts? >> one of the advantages, when we home schooled, we actually

were able to spend big chunks of time in illinois and then big chunks of time in virginia and what my kids liked about being in virginia was that the weekend that their dad would stay here, this wasn't his district, so he was ours for the whole weekend, yeah, so, and they also enjoyed when they got to high school age, we had home schooled them through 8th grade when the oldest one was headed towards high school we weighed the pros and cons of where did we want him to do high school? did we want them to do it back in illinois where our public school was. or did we want to do it here in a private school which was a little bit more expensive for us, but he opted to stay here because what he wanted was to have the distance between where

his dad was being a representative and where he was going to school and making his friendships because unless he shared with people in his class what it was that his dad did, he was just another kid in the classroom. he wasn't a special kid in the classroom. so, i think you have to kind of figure out where, where is the best place for your kids. >> that's a really good point. so you've talked a little about the challenges. i think what would be to share what are your high points. what about sort of being part after congressional family is so exciting and really makes you want to be engaged in politics and public service, you know, even now? >> well, i think-- the problem today with the lack

of civility is that people do not appreciate and respect the house of representatives, that's where we're from, and realize that blood was shed in several wars just to have the opportunity to get up and debate. i had the opportunity to work for john d anderson, had 1964 to '67 when i went to american university. it was a job that lasted five of the six semesters-- i was paid staff and he had three full-time and two part-time, that was it. and i saw how-- the time that he spent with his kids and he had what, five kids, and the respect that he had for the house and then when

i ran, oh, my gosh, what an honor. every time they came to raise my hand to take the oath, i could never get through the words. i'd just start weeping, i wept ten times. and there goes dad again, with the oath again. but it was the awesome sense that maybe 11,000 people in the history of this great republic have had the honor and the opportunity to represent literally hundreds of thousands of people and to be in the position to impact their lives, to change the course of the nation, but you do it because you respect the institution. my first bill that passed was with henry waxman. i mean, henry and i had three things in common, we were both americans, both members of congress and both belonged to the short caucus.

>> that was it. we were like this on everything, and we amended the clean air amendment of 1990. people said that was impossible. and i said, no, you know, i came to washington, the law had to be changed. henry is the head of the subcommittee. sat down, and henry talked to me it took us six months to begin to trust each other to overcome the institutional barriers of political partisanship. and we worked together, came up with a change on that and that's how all laws are made. you sit down with someone from the other side and come up with a solution. sam farr from california, sam helped me with the most massive cleanup of unexploded ordinance in the country. and he had fort ord and i had 13,000 acres of contamination

of unexploded ordinance and sam and our staff worked like this, he got me people, the experts, to clean this site up. we never thought about who was republican or who was democrat. ben cardin's expert on insurance sat down for two hours with me and went through how pension systems worked because i reached out and said i need help and where do i go. maybe i was naive because i never held office before, but coming from a small town and practicing law in a very small county, we always believed that you trust people. and then sometimes you may get burned, but it's still worth trying to trust people because it always would, in the end. >> well, i would say that the highlight of spending time in congress and the experience, one, is always the people.

you know, and the reason we go into politics, at least for us, and for our family, it's about the people. and you meet the most incredible people and whether that's in your district, or whether that's through the people you meet who are elected and in this wonderful institution, which i think it is, the u.s. congress, it's the people. and russ was on foreign affairs and we did do a lot of travelling. i left my kids, probably say, left alone again, and had somebody come stay with them, but we did quite a bit of travelling and that was the people, again. sure, the sights are nice, but many time, it's the people you meet. for me, sitting down and having a discussion with mickhail

gorbachev with just 12 other people in the room at his institute was incredible. i mean, or one of the presidents of bosnia, our friend president harris and actually-- he invited me to sit at the table with the other two presidents while we were discussing the issues of bosnia. we have the largest bosnians district in the world besides bosnia, we have many, many bosnian immigrants in our district. and once again, it keeps coming back to the people. it's the people that you meet that makes the experience. >> that was really the highlight, you know, being able to do things that made things better for people and i'll never forget having a room full of mothers with kids in my office the day that the health care bill passed and they all had pre-existing conditions, there wasn't a dry eye in the room. just things that really

impacted people's lives and i'll always remember what steny hoyer said in orientation, he said if you don't walk a little taller and you know, feel that inspiration every time you walk in that building, then he says, it's time to go. and it's true. but there's something to me about the congress and having, you know, 435 people there, like having the whole country in one room and learning from each other. you know, we're different professions and different ideas from around the country and you know, you can start off with a bill that you think is 100% great and has all the great ideas in it and going through the process, if we go through the process anymore, you know, it can actually be improved if somebody has a better idea. that's the way it's supposed to work. and so if you can let that work, and when it doesn't, often times, it's because it's

rushed or because somebody's trying to, you know, monkey with that system, well, there's a certain beauty in something really unique when you let that work. and to me, that's always been the fascinating challenge and opportunity about working in the congress. >> there's no doubt. here we sit in the national archives, home to our sacred texts of america and i mean, i do and i am struck by what you're saying, that really the work of a representative is just that, right, to come and represent and talk and debate and as you said, sort of reflect america in a smaller number. >> you know, that's -- the problem is that in many schools today, civics is not taught, what the members of congress are working on, thank you for helping to sponsor this forum.

sandra day o'connor devoted her life to teaching civics and people don't realize the extent of sacrifice. that went into these documents. the fact that lincoln practiced his name not abe lincoln, but abraham lincoln, his hand was so nervous he had to fix it before he signed the emancipation proclamation and just to look at the documents and to see the history of this country makes you not only better american, but makes you more civil towards each other. this is who we are. we're a mixture of everybody. but if we study these documents that defines who we are, we, the people. >> yeah. >> that was dramatic, won't r

wasn't it? [laughter] >> and but, i mean, so, obviously, this-- you know, the sacrifice, sort of excitement and enthusiasm and also, humility i think that comes with serving something, you need to share and what i want to do is spend for the last 20 minutes or so just opening it up to the audience for some questions that you may have about what it means to be a congressional family, a member of congress. any thoughts or questions. i apologize, so, i guess you need to go to the microphones in the aisles so that it will be broadcast over youtube and wherever else we're live

streaming. >> thank you. >> great. >> my question is, so one of the potential sacrifices, exposing your family to the public eye and especially in your district as you alluded to, kind of become a local celebrity family and journalists asking nasty questions and affects in school how your children are going through school and how they're treated. can you talk about that, keeping your family private while being a congressional family and, yes, how you balance that challenge. >>. >> i had a hard incident when we were serving and the people in our district knew that my heart stopped, that they did cpr and i ended up in the hospital here and got a stent put in and we got-- it was, this was a family

tragedy on its own, but it was a family tragedy that was being lived so much out in the public eye and we got a lot of-- most of the people sent me e-mails of support and everybody was praying for me, but i remember we got one e-mail from somebody that said i'm sure that your wife must have got the cadillac of care, you know, and so i said to my husband, you know, you need to actually write that person back very nicely and just say, we called 911 and you can call 911, too. we're not a celebrity. we're just pa family that's in a house here in america, and the services that are available to all of the citizens of the united states were available to us, but i said, i think that people tend to think that

somehow things are a little bit smoother for you and sometimes they are smoother, but every family has its ups and downs and there are things that they go through and so that was-- that's a little bit hard sometimes to do those things with so many people wondering what's going on. >> we had-- we always had a listed phone number. it's 234-love. and very seldom would constituents call me at home. people just-- they respected our privacy and you know, living on a farm, you don't-- no one knows you're there. [laughter] >> into the biggest town of by ron, 3500 and i've never been known to be a natty dresser. >> and people are often, you're

pumping your own gas, yeah. [laughter] >> and wonder-- >> and i think it can be difficult and i thank you for your question. because it is something that you struggle with. when you're in the public eye. and with our family, we've had a couple of generations now of being in the public eye and so it started way before russ became a state rep or a congress person. and i think the hardest part was when my-- and here is an example, this is why i'm going to bring it up. when my father-in-law was governor and running for the u.s. senate and my brother-in-law were killed in an airplane crash and that was very public, that went

worldwide. and you're dealing with your own grief, your own tragedy. my children were very young, they were eight and 12. it was very difficult. it was difficult on all of us, but it was also difficult for the people of the state. so you have to-- you have to understand that they identify with you and your family and that many of them have loved you and supported you and watched you grow up in life, or watched your kids grow up. and so, they identify with you. so you're always very cautious and careful, but you also realize that people are wanting to understand. people are wanting to know. it's not always that it's bad it's just something that is-- goes with the territory, so, it is difficult and sometimes you

go to your kids, you need to be extra careful, you know. it may not be fair that you'll get in the newspaper if you get a speeding ticket, and somebody else won't. but believe me, you will be in the newspaper and there will be an article for a speeding ticket. and it's not fair, but it's there. and so, they had some extra burdens and extra responsibilities as members of our family. >> and we have been in the public eye and some, you know, incredibly highs and wonderful things and some very difficult things, but i think i enjoy the most is-- 'cause there are many misperceptions about what it means to be in elective office, the sort of receptions and

public appearances you make, or everyday thing, grocery store. i can't believe you're out grocery shopping and people get a kick out of it or driving my old beatup pickup truck. you drive a truck? and those are things, i think they humanize you. but it's kind of fun to surprise people in those ways. and there's-- you know, in the 2010 elections when you had some of the bizarre things going on with-- you know, we had death threats spray painted on our house or our cars. >> oh, yeah. >> a casket put in our front yard and just bizarre things you would never even think of, but that's the sort of range of things you go through in the public eye. but for the most part, it's positive and some of those negative things you just have to deal with it and things go on. >> thank you. >> i just had a technical

question. you were a senior democratic whip. what does the whip do? >> what does the whip do? it's actually a great visual. [laughter] >> if you can picture getting people whipped into place and do what they need to do and a key vote is coming up. it's part messaging to people when a key vote comes up and partly good old-fashioned math and founding heads when votes come up. and that's the tradition of the whip title came from. >> i'm glad you weren't steve sclees scalise. that was a touching moment in congressional life. >> indeed. thank you for your question.

>> another. >> i've just got. i know neither of you are in congress anymore but dealing with this president and the way he chooses to communicate through tweets and brinksmanship and people just worked up all around. what would you suggest to your colleagues and kind of what can spouses and families do to kind of help to turn the temperatures down and sort of bring people together so they can get the work of government done? >> that is the -- that is the question of the day, i think. but part of it is just being civil and you know, trying to find common sense solutions to get things done. it's, i think, one of the frustrations about what people see in washington that it looks more like a food fight than people actually wanting to get things done. it's a powerful thing to do a bipartisan event with someone where you know, even though you

may be different political party or different part of the country or maybe you vote differently 90% of the time, but you find those issues where you have common ground and you get things done. but that's-- to me, the best way to show as an alternative, some of those things. >> i think that social media has done more to destroy this count country. at one time, if you had against something, you would pick up the phone. >> call them. >> call them or look them in the face. >> 0 are write a letter. >> and now, we have facebook and some guy would-- i mean, just nasty and i told my press guy, i should cut him off. you can't do that he'd be upset. i said that's tough! . [laughter] >> why should i provide a forum at taxpayers expense for somebody to get on there and swear, and to say all of this

ugly stuff? and i think that social media has generated and spawned and legitimized irreverent behavior because they get away with it. no one holds people accountable for that. whenever i counsel a young people getting ready to go to college or looking for a job i say, i always say the internet. if you've gone up there and you used the f-bomb you will never get hired in my office. never. watch what you say. watch how you treat-- if you say something that is really hateful because a man speaks what's in his heart, and the best thing that you can do check on a future employee is see what they said on the internet. this is destructive. it's destructive what people

are saying and they're getting away with it and now days there is no accountable for irreverent behavior. and it's not an age thing. because trump is 71. >> and our leaders have to be civil, and i think that that's a concern. i know that russ and i have. and i think that the american public has that concern. i mean, when you're a leader, it's one thing to have social media and i agree with you very much, but we cannot, as leaders, allow ourselves to go down to that level because we are elected to come here and to work together and to figure out how to get things done and when you've got people at the top speaking this way and degrading people and being personally destructive, i mean, this makes the term politics of the personal destruction, you're

like, wow, that was nothing. this is really bad. so, i think we need to hold our leaders accountable and not accept-- >> we need to hold accountable to keep kids from getting involved in trash. >> one thing about it, i don't want to be too far afield and kind of talking about the present day because i think one of the things that's actually very interesting about the time that we're in, it's a little bit like watching a car crash, you sort of can't not look and we all keep looking. even every conversation ends up-- and this is where one of the things we might want to start thinking about and i think tonight would be an interesting place to start imagining this, is how do we think spouses and congressional families could may be think about ways to do

things together to show legacy in generation and history and reverence for what it means? i mean, maybe there's some sort of role for the former member of congress association to, you know, bring more former members and their families and their spouses together in a bipartisan way across the country. >> that's a really good point. and as you were talking i was thinking, i was like, there's a lot that we already do together and the spouses do an international club at the first ladies luncheon. i at least know with former first lady michelle obama we always went out and did a public service of some type, republican and democrat, these are all bipartisan groups. it was amazing, too, how we shared with each other and then i would say, russ, did you know about in? did you know about this? because i learned about it from one of the other spouses and he'd be like no, i never knew

about that. i don't think to your point, but you get this out there. i think that the individual offices talk enough about what the spouses are doing, what the families are doing, is that in the news, does that get put out there. oh, debra this month was with fellow democrats and republicans working on this project. there was dialog about this. i think you know, we should promote that more, it's all behind the scenes stuff that we know about, but the public just sees the nasty, nasty side of the sausage making and not really the compatibility as he was talking don to your point, the hard work to really make things happen. >> and i believe that there are two things that we need. we need to humanize the people who work in politics and demystify the jobs that they do so i do think that even you

being here tonight sharing some of these experiences about what it was like for you to work together as partners, spouses, as members, as a family, the important ideas. >> i want to share with former members organization has a program called congress to campus. and we were at penn state. any nittany lions here tonight? a and-- >> and regardless of of republican or democrat. >> and we talk about our experiences and the kids are shocked, that members of the same-- different parties can speak to each other and get along and i think that program goes right to the gut of demonstrating to the college students that there's not a devil on one side

and an angel on the other side. the fact that people can communicate and talk and respect each other and have this decency. that's new for a lot of kids because there's a thinking today that it's cool to be impolite and rude, but that's accepted. that's because that's become a norm and this program breaks that event. and two people in congress mostly at the same time talk about how -- talk about the sacrifice and the bills that they worked on to make life better for people, including the kids that are there. >> and you know, what-- then there's a competition out there in news and you know, when you have the latest tweet or congressional food fight on one hand, to meeting of democrats and republicans in a room getting along. you know, what is going to be

in the news? how do you get that message out there that there's value in that and that actually does happen. >> right. >> you just don't hear about it in the news, not very often. >> and let's face it, right, every single business actually requires cooperative work. i mean, i think one of the sort of great illusions is this idea that anyone does any one thing alone. it doesn't matter whether you're in a corporation or whether you're in congress, or whether you're in an educational institution, you know, when i write a journal article, many, many people have read it and responded to it and critiqued it before it's published and all of that is a cooperative process. so i do think what you're talking about is how you can work together and engage each other and engage more people in this process. so getting back to the family

thing, one last sort of thought. if there was one thing that you could do more when you were sort of in politics and campaigning, what would it be? and if there was one thing you could do less, i already know the answer to this, because they always say it, what would it be? sort of what was your favorite part of the campaign or the politics? it's not fully the people, but the tasks. what sorts of things did you like, did you enjoy the town halls? did you enjoy the one-on-one meetings with your constituents? did you learn a lot from lobbyists, which is another profession that is often derided yet most people don't realize it's actually protected in our constitution, and it is, you know, it's truly a profession of education, being a lobbyist. and so, i think there are a lot of different jobs that one does

when they are a representative. they have their party pulling on them. they have their district pulling on them. they have dinner members asking them to do different things, their committee assignments, all of these different priorities. so, i'm curious, what were the tasks that you enjoyed both as a member and as a spouse and what were the things you wish you didn't have to do? >> anyone? >> i'll go. >> okay. >> i'll start with the positive first. and i know you said not the people, but the part i enjoyed the most still was meeting the people that came into the office to discuss issues and as often as i could be there, as

russ would make sure and staff were good at making sure if folks were coming in to talk with russ on issues i had expertise in or i cared about and had developed expertise in, they made sure to let me know. and if there were, like a woman's group that was coming in from rwanda, and it was on legal issues and what was happening there, you know, and they knew that forum was going on, judge do you want to go to this and meet with the women and talk with them. so it was constantly a wonderful education process, you know, so i felt like a sponge, just going to all of this information about all the wonderful different subjects by people who really knew what they were talking about. so, i still think that's the most wonderful part of it and i might find this funny coming from a spouse, but the part i would like to do less of is fund raising. 'cause i did a lot of fund raising. i would spent time on the

phone. i would do fundraisers and it takes up so much of your time. the members and the spouse, depending if you want to do that or not. from what you really enjoy doing, and what i really think that you're there to do. so, yeah, fundraising. >> well, i would say my favorite part would be what i would call the art of politics. and that is taking an idea, bringing in experts or constituents that did know about it, shaping that into something, and then building a coalition around it. to me, that is the most fun and you know, just one example we had our local chapter of the ms society came to my office, we talked about the need, the need for more research and then identified the congressionally

directed medical research in the department of defense, that they had never funded ms research before. and so we put together a coalition, we worked with other members, and their national group and i found a republican partner who-- a republican that i had almost nothing in common with, but we teamed up on this issue and we made that-- created the first funding through that and so, to me, that's the kind of thing that is the challenge, the opportunity and really that art of politics bringing people together to make something happen and of course, my least favorite is fundraising. >> i bet i'm going to get four out of four on that. >> i don't think that anybody likes the fundraising. >> i do. >> and-- . [laughter] >> i would say i would agree with you it's the people that you meet and likewise, if someone was coming into the

office that was, that don knew i was going to be interested in their topic, i would come and because i came from a medical technology background issues a lot of people that came in with health issues, i was really interested in those. and i think that the greatest satisfaction that you get is when somebody comes in with a problem that they just haven't been able to solve and they're frustrated and you realize that you can do something about that, that you can put the wheels in motion and get them connected with the people that are going to help them and that you can-- you just feel like you can do a lot of good for people. we had someone in our district that had been trying to adopt a child from the philippines.

>> five-- >> and had run into a snag with that and when it finally came to our attention, we were able to actually really get in touch with the ambassador from the philippines and make it happen, and after waiting for five years, they finally, it finally all came to be and that little girl is living in illinois with the family that loves her. so, i mean, those are the things that you just-- and i think now when we're back home and people come up and they'll tell you that they have a problem, you still empathize, you still steer them towards where they could get help, but you feel a little bit more helpless because you're not really your representative anymore and you can't help them quite as much. >> yeah. >> i think, you know, aside from the fundraising and no one likes that, i'd set my

priorities when i was elected and i really had no regret on anything. one of my priorities was to spend a lot of time with these students from the-- the national high school groups that come in, a couple of them. ... once i talk to the 16-year-old for about an hour on the phone, and her mother said she's my biggest thing and she couldn't even vote for me. [laughing] but the opportunity of a congressman to bend a twig, to have the opportunity to shape and mold the lives of these

young people. we have an intern from china, and i had the opportunity today to explain to him what freedom is. he did not know why so many people in america could have different opinions. he said, lost, i do understand that. it was the most remarkable opportunity. i chair the u.s.-china exchange, 18 members of congress with me, we were at johns hopkins university. a young chinese student, , so there were about 200 students, half american and half chinese, a young chinese student stood up and she said, do you think that china is ready for freedom? is ready for democracy?

congressman bill pascrell from new jersey gave the most brilliant defense of the doctrine of natural law, explaining the source of liberties to this chinese student. you can't envision the opportunities that we have as members of congress. i look back and i made a commitment at the beginning to spend a lot of time with these young people. and that's been the greatest reward in my life as a member of congress, and that presidents travel all over the world, but no time was spent any more importantly than with the 16 year olds wanting to know about the nature of this country. of course we always send them to the department of archives. [laughing] >> i think, with that, are there any last questions. please go to the microphone and i think we will wrap up.

>> i'm from ukraine, so i have a little bit of a different perspective. you had i think an amazing put on declaration of independence. as a person from ukraine we are newly democratic and i don't see any of our politicians having the reverence towards law, towards democracy and freedom as you guys do. there were people from ukraine especially politicians who would sit there, they would probably be, maybe half a million dollars, and that is what's called democracy in eastern europe. what my question is, both of you served on foreign committees. as a family what was it like dealing with foreign counterparts? what do you think the use can do better to export those values abroad? >> well, i chaired the u.s.-china and a parliamentary exchange in the u.s.-canadian interparliamentary exchange and

also the exchange with the eu and with japan and korea. but working with the chinese counterparts was extraordinarily difficult, not that they were hard people, but they had no definition of the word freedom. it just was not in their vocabulary. so the mere fact that we could talk about different things and even offend the president, god forbid, by saying something like that, that just amazed them. i couldn't believe we would have that much freedom to actually criticize the government. >> i served on the subcommittee on the international organization of foreign affairs, so we dealt with a lot of those delegations. there's several part of that that were meaningful. at first my staff try to talk to getting involved in the foreign affairs committee because they said what does it have to do with your district?

a lot. if you have businesses involved in international trade, , if you students go and universities all over the world. you have ethnic groups that care about other parts of the world, and so those were, we were always tying those issues back to her district and our state. we also learned things. that exchange of ideas. we learned things about germany. we had green energy and how do those kinds of transitions. you learn things, you share ideas and you have some common problems. we don't, in america, have a monopoly on good ideas, or action open to those. we share our experiences with other countries, how we deal with things. finally, , i would just say it's relationships. they really matter around the

world and building those through the congress, through other parliaments. some of our best allies in other countries are leaders who have had an experience in the united states. they have, as an exchange student, have been to one of our universities, and so they understand us a little bit. the people in other countries that it had those experiences, it really improves that relationship. it's really an important thing, an important function of our congress. >> i'll also just say that, so that you know, alexander hamilton at one point in time was very frustrated in, i think it was 1801, a few years before he died in the duel. he referred to the constitution as the frail fabric that is the constitution.

so i would argue that part of what's going on in ukraine, it's just new. newness is hard to create legitimacy and tradition. i do think that the one big advantage we have now is we've got over 200 years of tradition and history. and trust me, not all of it was upstanding or calm or civil. there was a member of congress who did shoot another individual on the steps of capitol hill and got away with it. so life has been tumultuous at different times. so needless to say, any last thoughts? >> i would say that people need to be encouraged to run for public office. there's a lot of people that are afraid if they run for office that somebody will dig up some

dirt on them. you run for public office, your public life is an extension of your personal life. you don't live a bifurcated life, and you try to live as a person of integrity and to take those values. and promote them. we have a good friend called. she's in a wheelchair. she sleeps in an iron lung at night. she needs a 24 hour caretaker. she is running to be on the board of supervisors of dane county in madison, wisconsin. what an extraordinary thing, and look at her and say, she decided to get involved and she can't

even wheel her own wheelchair. it's electric. if she thinks that much about america and she wants to get involved to make a difference, with her physical disability, how much more the rest of us americans should use that as an example of what people are willing to do to have their voice heard. >> i mean, i would echo that come just importance of i think all of us, whether we are in office for out telling our story about what a difference it can make. it's not just, you know, it's something everyone can be involved in in some way. even not running for office. you can be involved in volunteering for a campaign are working in an office. there's lots of ways you can make a difference in your community, and i think telling those stories are great way to do that. we are seeing the new generation

of people engaging in that, and that's good for our country. >> well, i want to thank the former members for having this forum and for certainly asking us to be part of this and the national -- >> you are enjoying this? [laughing] >> oh, yeah, we are. and argues our current. -- our dues -- this is something that is not talked about, to discuss, this lifestyle is the unique lifestyle. certainly there are husbands wives who work together. we are currently working together, but in the congress, in politics, it's unique. it does take a village. it does take a family, and it really does matter. i think that's why i was struck

when we first came to congress how much support i felt there was there for the spouses and for their families, and that they really tried hard to be inclusive and to support. so i just want to say that this was a great forum, and thank you, and if you ever want me back just holler at me, and i will say thank you to you. thank you to the archives. [applause] >> wonderful. i really appreciate sharing such personal stories of all of us tonight. >> thanks. [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> here's a look at our live coverage today on c-span.